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You guys broke the Romulan Boffs...again

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  • kaarruukaarruu Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    shookyang wrote: »
    Why would it remain so? The ones we already owned were changed with the recent patch (trait ability and now much they received). I do not think it would be impossible to fix the ones that have already been purchased.
    The fact that there are no officers with Basic Romulan Operative is also a consequence of random generation with a small sample size. We can "fix" this by just adding some more possible trait combinations to the store. This won't impact anything that's already been purchased - we can just add more options that people can buy. No ETA on this; it's on the radar, though.

    The above suggests that they don't intend to fix the useless Boffs, just add more useful ones at some future time.

    If I've read it wrong, misunderstood or will be proven wrong by devs changing their minds about their approach, I'll be all the happier for it.
  • cmdrskyfallercmdrskyfaller Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I've been investigating these issues, and I have a few answers for you.

    These officers were intentionally given slightly better trait distributions than a standard Bridge Officer of their Quality level.

    Bridge Officers have four traits. Normally, they are laid out as follows:

    Green - 1-2 Basic, 2-3 Standard
    Blue - 1 Basic, 2 Standard, 1 Superior
    Purple - 2 Standard, 2 Superior

    There are some exceptions to this.

    Since the Romulan officers require reputation, unlocks, etc. to purchase, they were given slightly "better" layouts, as follows:

    Green - 1 Basic, 3 Standard
    Blue - 2 Standard, 2 Superior
    Purple - 4 Superior

    In addition, these Romulan Bridge Officers deviate from normal Bridge Officers in that rather than having a standard racial ability, they have either one of the levels of Subterfuge *or* Covert Operative.

    These traits were assigned randomly; the fact that Tactical BOFFs ended up with Romulan Operative was a consequence of random allocation with a small sample size. This is also why males and females have slightly different layouts; this wasn't to make some better than others, they just have different randomly assigned traits (but should have the same number of "points", so to speak).

    The fact that there are no officers with Basic Romulan Operative is also a consequence of random generation with a small sample size. We can "fix" this by just adding some more possible trait combinations to the store. This won't impact anything that's already been purchased - we can just add more options that people can buy. No ETA on this; it's on the radar, though.

    Another confusing factor is that the quality level of these BOFFs might appear to be higher after you purchase them. For example, if you buy a blue Romulan BOFF, this will appear to be Purple in your roster - this is because the system determines that they have a number of trait points in the "Purple" range and displays them that way. Obviously, this is pretty confusing, and I'm looking for a way to fix it without nerfing the existing blue officers.

    The trait tooltips being inconsistent is a bug, plain and simple. That's already fixed internally, and hopefully it should get to players soon.

    When and if we put more Romulan BOFFs in the game, we'll be much clearer about how they're supposed to work. My apologies for the confusion.

    Archon: Could you guys also make a sweep pass at doffs/boffs in general?

    Doffs :

    we need a way to know which doff can only be equipped once of. It really sucks to get 3 purple doffs at high cost and then the system tell you that you can only equip one. There is no indicator anywhere that only one of this doff type can be equipped.

    we also need a way to tell the exchange to only look up faction-matching doffs. As KDF its extremely annoying to find a KDF doff since there are hardly many and its a needle in a haystack search. I mean heck, couldn't you guys just add 'FED' and 'KDF' to each doff name at the start "KDF DOFFNAME" and 'FED DOFFNAME" so we can at least search by name quickly?

    Boffs:
    We need tooltips to display the exact bonus amount the boff traits give the player when in the exchange or doff-mart purchase window.

    ground combat: why do boffs with guns run to melee range of the enemy? KDF does it, fed boffs dont. Hilariously, if the KDF boffs have blades in hand they wont run to the enemy to hit it. they'll stay in range. WTF?
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited March 2013
    shookyang wrote: »
    I should point out that the values attributed to the type of Operative (Basic Operative, Operative, and Superior Operative) appear to be correct.

    That is to say, the Romulan Operative that is (incorrectly) associated with the Uncommon Romulan Tactical BOFF gives a value of 1.5%. Since there are no Basic Romulan Operatives (which should be Uncommon), I can't say if it's 1%. I believe, when I looked at the Male Rare Romulan Tactical BOFF, the value was 2%.

    Again, it sounds like the Basic Operative got bumped off and all the higher traits were bumped down (again, incorrectly) to the next lower rarity.

    This is probably contributing to why the Very Rare Tactical Officers have Subterfuge instead of Superior Operative.

    It seems like the only correct Romulan Tactical Officer is the Female Rare Tactical BOFF with her Romulan Operative trait (even though the Male has the Superior Operative, incorrectly of course).

    Any update on this? Again, this seems like the traits were shifted so that the basic Operative would be on a common Romulan tactical BOFF. Perhaps you were considering making one, then decided just to start off with Uncommon? Since there are no common Romulan tactical BOFFs, we can't verify that for sure.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I've been investigating these issues, and I have a few answers for you.

    These officers were intentionally given slightly better trait distributions than a standard Bridge Officer of their Quality level.

    Bridge Officers have four traits. Normally, they are laid out as follows:

    Green - 1-2 Basic, 2-3 Standard
    Blue - 1 Basic, 2 Standard, 1 Superior
    Purple - 2 Standard, 2 Superior

    There are some exceptions to this.

    Since the Romulan officers require reputation, unlocks, etc. to purchase, they were given slightly "better" layouts, as follows:

    Green - 1 Basic, 3 Standard
    Blue - 2 Standard, 2 Superior
    Purple - 4 Superior

    In addition, these Romulan Bridge Officers deviate from normal Bridge Officers in that rather than having a standard racial ability, they have either one of the levels of Subterfuge *or* Covert Operative.

    These traits were assigned randomly; the fact that Tactical BOFFs ended up with Romulan Operative was a consequence of random allocation with a small sample size. This is also why males and females have slightly different layouts; this wasn't to make some better than others, they just have different randomly assigned traits (but should have the same number of "points", so to speak).

    The fact that there are no officers with Basic Romulan Operative is also a consequence of random generation with a small sample size. We can "fix" this by just adding some more possible trait combinations to the store. This won't impact anything that's already been purchased - we can just add more options that people can buy. No ETA on this; it's on the radar, though.

    Another confusing factor is that the quality level of these BOFFs might appear to be higher after you purchase them. For example, if you buy a blue Romulan BOFF, this will appear to be Purple in your roster - this is because the system determines that they have a number of trait points in the "Purple" range and displays them that way. Obviously, this is pretty confusing, and I'm looking for a way to fix it without nerfing the existing blue officers.

    The trait tooltips being inconsistent is a bug, plain and simple. That's already fixed internally, and hopefully it should get to players soon.

    When and if we put more Romulan BOFFs in the game, we'll be much clearer about how they're supposed to work. My apologies for the confusion.



    Well that is confusing. Lol. :P


    shookyang wrote: »
    Any update on this? Again, this seems like the traits were shifted so that the basic Operative would be on a common Romulan tactical BOFF. Perhaps you were considering making one, then decided just to start off with Uncommon? Since there are no common Romulan tactical BOFFs, we can't verify that for sure.




    Yeah I was pretty disappointed, it was my own fault but I made the mistake of purchasing the VR T3 Rom Tac BOFFs without verifying that they do not in fact offer a Critical hit % increase.



    I don't know if there is some realistic way for Archon to go through and do a pass on these to have them make a bit more sense.

    For starters the Tac BOFF line have their special abilities kind of all over the place, I wish there was a clear progression of:

    T1 = 1% crit > T2 = 1.5% crit > T3 = 2%

    Seeing as we don't want to nerf the T2 male, perhaps instead:

    T1 = 1% crit > T2 > 2% crit > T3 = 2.25% crit

    That makes the T2 the sweet spot for the average player, and gives the "I must have every last ounce of POWER!!" guys like me a reason to spend huge amounts of dilithium for a relatively smaller increase.



    On top of this, I think the Sci / Eng lines should offer some kind of benefits for space on ships that do not have a cloak.

    Or barring that, a damage bonus for using MES as well as Cloak.




    My ideal would have been:

    Tac = CritH/CritD bonuses
    Sci = Cloaking Detection & Stealth bonus
    Eng = CD Reduction & Damage boost for Cloaking/MES/Stealth Effects
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited March 2013
    For starters the Tac BOFF line have their special abilities kind of all over the place, I wish there was a clear progression of:

    T1 = 1% crit > T2 = 1.5% crit > T3 = 2%

    Seeing as we don't want to nerf the T2 male, perhaps instead:

    T1 = 1% crit > T2 > 2% crit > T3 = 2.25% crit
    It's not nerfing the T2 male, it's correcting it.

    As I said before, only the T2 Female Romulan Tactical Boff is correct (or, working as intended). Everything else needs to be corrected.

    Here's what it looks like now:
    Male: t1 = 1.5%, t2 = 2%, t3 = no operative trait
    Female: t1 = 1.5%, t2 = 1.5%, t3 = no operative trait

    Here's what it should look like:
    Male: t1 = 1%, t2 = 1.5%, t3 = 2%
    Female: t1 = 1%, t2 = 1.5%, t3 = 2%

    They already adjusted the trait values and changed the trait name in the patch weeks ago. I don't see why it would be a problem to change the values of the BOFFs again. It's especially easy, because the traits are set (similar to the unique BOFFs that could be obtained as accolade and mission rewards).
  • archoncrypticarchoncryptic Member, Cryptic Developers Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    To reiterate, not all Romulan Tactical BOFFs are supposed to have Romulan Operative. That's intentional, and that's not being changed.

    We *might* put more Romulan BOFFs on the store at some point, so that people can get the trait combinations they want - such as greens with Basic Romulan Operative, purples with Superior Romulan Operative, etc.

    Adjusting the existing BOFFs would be unfair to people who bought the BOFFs for the powers they already have. While Subterfuge isn't as popular as Romulan Operative in the forum community, that doesn't mean someone didn't buy a BOFF with the intent of getting the Subterfuge trait.

    Moreover, Subterfuge has some changes coming that should make it more generally appealing - I think that will alleviate a large part of this issue.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited March 2013
    To reiterate, not all Romulan Tactical BOFFs are supposed to have Romulan Operative. That's intentional, and that's not being changed.

    We *might* put more Romulan BOFFs on the store at some point, so that people can get the trait combinations they want - such as greens with Basic Romulan Operative, purples with Superior Romulan Operative, etc.

    Adjusting the existing BOFFs would be unfair to people who bought the BOFFs for the powers they already have. While Subterfuge isn't as popular as Romulan Operative in the forum community, that doesn't mean someone didn't buy a BOFF with the intent of getting the Subterfuge trait.

    Moreover, Subterfuge has some changes coming that should make it more generally appealing - I think that will alleviate a large part of this issue.
    This doesn't make any sense and is counter to what was stated.

    At present, there is NO Boff with Basic Romulan Operative. There used to be a Basic Covert Operative. But, when you made the change a few weeks ago, it was changed to Romulan Operative. If there is not meant to be a Basic Romulan Operative, why state that there is and give the stats on what it is supposed to be?

    And, you already changed the nature of Operative to the people that already purchased it when you reduced critical hit and increased critical severity on the Operative trait. You may as well fix it as it was intended (or what the scale-to-rarity was set to). I'm sure most people bought the Very Rare Tactical BOFF in hopes of getting the Superior Operative trait, not reading the traits before purchasing. Likewise, I'm sure people bought the Female Rare tactical BOFF expecting it to have the same trait as the male version for the same reason. Are you not intending to fix this as well?

    If you're going to try change Subterfuge, fix them both by combining the two traits into one and impose a stack limit to 3.
  • bunansabunansa Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    To reiterate, not all Romulan Tactical BOFFs are supposed to have Romulan Operative. That's intentional, and that's not being changed.

    We *might* put more Romulan BOFFs on the store at some point, so that people can get the trait combinations they want - such as greens with Basic Romulan Operative, purples with Superior Romulan Operative, etc.

    Adjusting the existing BOFFs would be unfair to people who bought the BOFFs for the powers they already have. While Subterfuge isn't as popular as Romulan Operative in the forum community, that doesn't mean someone didn't buy a BOFF with the intent of getting the Subterfuge trait.

    Moreover, Subterfuge has some changes coming that should make it more generally appealing - I think that will alleviate a large part of this issue.

    This is a very sexist statement, your basically saying regardless of the male and female of the same quality level are not the same because the males are better, so why purchase a female for the same amount of dilithium if shes going to do less, suggest rethinking your current stand on this situation before even more flaming ensues.
    tumblr_ndmkqm59J31r5ynioo2_r2_500.gif

  • aspartan1aspartan1 Member Posts: 1,054 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    While I agree with everything Shookyang is saying I do disagree on one point. I dont think there should be a limit with them. We can run five of any trait BOs we want so if someone wants to run five Rommies then they should be allowed. Otherwise, I agree with everything.

    I was saddened when I was compelled to buy the male rare when I really wanted the female for my all girl crew....
    If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
    Former member of the Cryptic Family & Friends Testing Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
    Obscurea Chaotica Fleet (KDF), Commander
    ingame: @.Spartan
    Romulan_Republic_logo.png
    Former Alpha & Beta Tester
    Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
    The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
  • amayakitsuneamayakitsune Member Posts: 977 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    To reiterate, not all Romulan Tactical BOFFs are supposed to have Romulan Operative. That's intentional, and that's not being changed.

    We *might* put more Romulan BOFFs on the store at some point, so that people can get the trait combinations they want - such as greens with Basic Romulan Operative, purples with Superior Romulan Operative, etc.

    Adjusting the existing BOFFs would be unfair to people who bought the BOFFs for the powers they already have. While Subterfuge isn't as popular as Romulan Operative in the forum community, that doesn't mean someone didn't buy a BOFF with the intent of getting the Subterfuge trait.

    Moreover, Subterfuge has some changes coming that should make it more generally appealing - I think that will alleviate a large part of this issue.

    Romulan Operative (and its Basic and Superior versions) make the most sense on tactical officers considering that they enhance critical chance and severity... besides that; It still doesnt explain why you used any random generation for a sample size of 18.

    I want a female Tac officer with Superior Romulan Operative (my crew is all female...)... but cant get one because you guys chose the exact wrong way to go about making 18 bridge officers... I could have understood if this was going to be 100 bridge officers... but honestly for 18 I would have assigned them by hand and been done with it and it wouldnt have made it look like you just didnt care.

    So now you need to add more... because Im not gonna be happy until I can get a female tac officer with Superior Romulan Operative. (And this adding more thing could have been avoided by just no using any random selection at all in the first place)
    7NGGeUP.png

  • dova25dova25 Member Posts: 475
    edited March 2013
    @archoncryptic

    Your solution of not changing the abilities of existing Doffs and only add new Doffs to complement the existing ones I personally think it's the correct one.

    It should be fair to everybody including who already bought romulan boffs and who will buy in future the new ones.
    "There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
    I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Sigh. The algorithm they used to assign traits gave the same weighting to all Superior traits, as if Superior Mental Discipline is exactly as desirable as Superior Romulan Operative. And that's clearly not true. You've got to put a little thought into these things in the future.

    And I won't call you sexist, but it's definitely a mistake in a Star Trek game to give a male character a vastly superior trait than a female character. That ain't gonna fly with your audience.

    ...some of us sexist nerds want all-female crews...
  • aspartan1aspartan1 Member Posts: 1,054 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    shookyang wrote: »
    This doesn't make any sense and is counter to what was stated.

    At present, there is NO Boff with Basic Romulan Operative. There used to be a Basic Covert Operative. But, when you made the change a few weeks ago, it was changed to Romulan Operative. If there is not meant to be a Basic Romulan Operative, why state that there is and give the stats on what it is supposed to be?

    And, you already changed the nature of Operative to the people that already purchased it when you reduced critical hit and increased critical severity on the Operative trait. You may as well fix it as it was intended (or what the scale-to-rarity was set to). I'm sure most people bought the Very Rare Tactical BOFF in hopes of getting the Superior Operative trait, not reading the traits before purchasing. Likewise, I'm sure people bought the Female Rare tactical BOFF expecting it to have the same trait as the male version for the same reason. Are you not intending to fix this as well?

    If you're going to try change Subterfuge, fix them both by combining the two traits into one and impose a stack limit to 3.

    I agree. Hell if the change would be deemed unfair - despite changes already, then all Cryptic would have to do is give a refund to people and let them buy again. If that would be to much trouble then let us sell it back to the vender for a token to get a new one.
    If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
    Former member of the Cryptic Family & Friends Testing Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
    Obscurea Chaotica Fleet (KDF), Commander
    ingame: @.Spartan
    Romulan_Republic_logo.png
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    The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited March 2013
    aspartan1 wrote: »
    While I agree with everything Shookyang is saying I do disagree on one point. I dont think there should be a limit with them. We can run five of any trait BOs we want so if someone wants to run five Rommies then they should be allowed. Otherwise, I agree with everything.

    I was saddened when I was compelled to buy the male rare when I really wanted the female for my all girl crew....
    They combined Subterfuge and Operative, and everyone had 5 BOFFs, this would most definitely be too much.

    If we got Superior Operative (2% critical hit, 5% critical severity), that would be a total of 10% critical hit and 25% critical severity. That is way, WAY too much. They changed Operative from 5% critical hit to 2% critical hits, 5% critical severity because the critical hit was way too high. But, now you have to balance it so that critical severity isn't too high either. I think capping it at 3 would be fine.
  • michaelsdstmichaelsdst Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The whole implementation was a bad idea IMHO. Either make the BOFFs unique (Android, Breen, etc.) or give variations of them. Also there was absolutely no need to make them more powerful as the usual doffs. I know one has to build the embassy, so what? Also making the skills different for the different levels of the BOFFs is not only illogical, but stupid.

    Fix it please, as it is, it is simply a nightmare.
    GIVE US THANK YOU FOR GIVING US THE TYPHOON! Enough said...
  • aspartan1aspartan1 Member Posts: 1,054 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    shookyang wrote: »
    They combined Subterfuge and Operative, and everyone had 5 BOFFs, this would most definitely be too much.

    If we got Superior Operative (2% critical hit, 5% critical severity), that would be a total of 10% critical hit and 25% critical severity. That is way, WAY too much. They changed Operative from 5% critical hit to 2% critical hits, 5% critical severity because the critical hit was way too high. But, now you have to balance it so that critical severity isn't too high either. I think capping it at 3 would be fine.

    It is sort of like the all human crew now - no? A trade off to be sure - offense or defense or power.
    If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
    Former member of the Cryptic Family & Friends Testing Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
    Obscurea Chaotica Fleet (KDF), Commander
    ingame: @.Spartan
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  • mariartusmariartus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    So guys in a nut shell, what Boffs do we want to get if we want the best crit possible? tried reading this forums but way too confusing
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited March 2013
    mariartus wrote: »
    So guys in a nut shell, what Boffs do we want to get if we want the best crit possible? tried reading this forums but way too confusing
    At this moment, the Rare Male Romulan Tactical BOFF.
  • mariartusmariartus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Thanks for the Reply, but do i want only one of them, or stack? and are they likely to fix the purple ones? or they working as intended?
  • vesolcvesolc Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The whole implementation was a bad idea IMHO. Either make the BOFFs unique (Android, Breen, etc.) or give variations of them. Also there was absolutely no need to make them more powerful as the usual doffs. I know one has to build the embassy, so what? Also making the skills different for the different levels of the BOFFs is not only illogical, but stupid.

    Fix it please, as it is, it is simply a nightmare.

    yada yada yada
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited March 2013
    mariartus wrote: »
    Thanks for the Reply, but do i want only one of them, or stack? and are they likely to fix the purple ones? or they working as intended?
    Stack'em. Last word they gave us was that they are working as intended.

    Considering that Subterfuge now gives 3.75% defense at purple, it may not be a bad idea to stack 5 of the purple subterfuge BOFFs as is.
  • drake122svkdrake122svk Member Posts: 731 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I would just like to confirm, do the same quality Covert Operative Romulan BOFFs (two blue ones) stack properly now? I know a patch some time ago was meant to fix them, but a confirmation would be nice anyway, considering how some "fixes" turned out in the past.
  • vesolcvesolc Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I would just like to confirm, do the same quality Covert Operative Romulan BOFFs (two blue ones) stack properly now? I know a patch some time ago was meant to fix them, but a confirmation would be nice anyway, considering how some "fixes" turned out in the past.

    Yes they do.
  • drake122svkdrake122svk Member Posts: 731 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Thanks, that is good to know.
  • rayduhzrayduhz Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Just to confirm, does anyone know if the Superior Operative -- decreases cloak cooldown stack? Also how much of a decrease to cloak?
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    rayduhz wrote: »
    Just to confirm, does anyone know if the Superior Operative -- decreases cloak cooldown stack? Also how much of a decrease to cloak?

    Operatives, as far as I'm aware, have zero effect on cloaking abilities. You're looking for the Subterfuge boffs. And their cloak-related bonuses don't stack, only the accompanying defense boost does.
  • rayduhzrayduhz Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Rare Romulan Superior Operative Male Tactical Officers offer decreased cloak time.

    Subterfuge offer increase effect on damage when decloak (been confirmed they do not stack) and increased cloaking effect.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited March 2013
    rayduhz wrote: »
    Rare Romulan Superior Operative Male Tactical Officers offer decreased cloak time.

    Subterfuge offer increase effect on damage when decloak (been confirmed they do not stack) and increased cloaking effect.
    I do not believe it does reduce the decloak time when stacked.

    I think my cooldown is still 18 seconds with 3 Uncommon Operatives.
  • amokhsamokhs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Can we please stick to the subject? We need confirmation that our boffs will be fixed Cryptic you made a mistake... man up and say you'll fix it problem solved. As it is right now we cant get a female operative boff in a lil tiny skirt on our ships. We cant just buy the blue male and have it 'fixed' next patch. half the pro's in the game are stuck on this issue. Surely 12 pages of people have explained the problem sufficiently Fix it please this one just cant be ignored.

    Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I hope these are fixed soon.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
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