Ok, which "tropes" are you specifically thinking of? Aliens trying to take over Earth in the past? Space Blood Feuds? Mysterious races that get seen once and never again? Super artifacts that could destroy civilization as we know it? Alien Warlords who don't like us? Super aliens that are stupidly powerful?
Um, let's face it.... most of those are ST staples....
I actually thought that the Xindi were a pretty novel idea. Sure some people will go "They're just x, y, and z." Meh.... most of the tropes used in TOS were rehashed from older scifi. Go watch Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers some time.
He isn't comparing the two occurrences of space TRIBBLE against each other, he is pointing out that overall, Enterprise was just tired tropes and plot rehashes. We had space TRIBBLE's. We had a version of Journey to Babel, we had Organians. Hell, they even retconned TNG with the Frozen Borg episode.
Know why I think TOS gets a pass on some of those hokey plots? They did them first, and usually better, with nothing near the budget Enterprise enjoyed.
This is pretty much exactly what I said. But yes, Enterprise was just rehashed through and through. The Borg and Ferengi episodes are perfect examples.
Overall, I found Enterprise to be very disappointing. The time travelling space TRIBBLE were just the final straw for me. I did really enjoy the mirror universe episodes, thou - one instance where something old was re-done well (except I thought that Evil-Archer was a little overly psychotic)
Ok, which "tropes" are you specifically thinking of? Aliens trying to take over Earth in the past? Space Blood Feuds? Mysterious races that get seen once and never again? Super artifacts that could destroy civilization as we know it? Alien Warlords who don't like us? Super aliens that are stupidly powerful?
Um, let's face it.... most of those are ST staples....
There is "Staple" and then there is "This no longer has any cultural relevance".
I actually thought that the Xindi were a pretty novel idea. Sure some people will go "They're just x, y, and z."
I did like the Xindi as a race. The idea of these bizarre creatures working together as one is pretty cool. I just didn't really like the story that introduced them. :rolleyes:
I thought Archer was great. He may not have been a "perfect" character like Picard, but that's the whole point - humanity was taking its first steps into the galaxy, and the NX-01 crew had to learn from their mistakes. I think by the end of the show, Archer had matured and improved a lot.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
I thought Archer was great. He may not have been a "perfect" character like Picard, but that's the whole point - humanity was taking its first steps into the galaxy, and the NX-01 crew had to learn from their mistakes. I think by the end of the show, Archer had matured and improved a lot.
I never said he was a bad character. Flawed characters are the most interesting ones after all. He just never struck me as Captain material. I always thought that Archer should have been more like Sisko or Chief O'Brien. A military man and father to his crew sort of thing.
Villains we've already seen before. (Borg, Ferengi, Etc.)
"What is love?" plots.
"Humanity is infectious" plots.
Time Travel.
Forced fanservice (That damn Decon room).
The Borg.
And most importantly time Travel.
Basically, the reason why I hate Enterprise, and why I think a lot of other people do too, is that the things that should have been changed weren't, and the things that should have stayed the same were changed. (Theme song anyone?)
I like it, then again I can't say I really disliked anything trek except maybe the JJ movie. I know they were good with TRIBBLE with continuity...like the Borg showing up...then again there was knowledge of the Borg back in the lat 23rd century yet there was no knowledge till the D was sent ahead by Q.
I'm really disappointed it never made it to the next season...I love Romulans and would of loved to see the season that deals with them.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Villains we've already seen before. (Borg, Ferengi, Etc.)
"What is love?" plots.
"Humanity is infectious" plots.
Forced fanservice (That damn Decon room).
Basically, the reason why I hate Enterprise, and why I think a lot of other people do too, is that the things that should have been changed weren't, and the things that should have stayed the same were changed. (Theme song anyone?)
Hmm.... that's not a very long list when you remove the redundant stuff. Most of it is vague concepts that are perennial ST plots.... (Sci-fi always has fanservice.... always. The decon plot was overkill, but still...)
Honestly I think Ent should have been MORE about going where ST has gone before. It's a prequel.... A prequel should not have a crapload of new stuff. Some yes, but I think Ent over did it there.
Hmm.... that's not a very long list when you remove the redundant stuff. Most of it is vague concepts that are perennial ST plots.... (Sci-fi always has fanservice.... always. The decon plot was overkill, but still...)
Honestly I think Ent should have been MORE about going where ST has gone before. It's a prequel.... A prequel should not have a crapload of new stuff. Some yes, but I think Ent over did it there.
Hmm.... that's not a very long list when you remove the redundant stuff. Most of it is vague concepts that are perennial ST plots.... (Sci-fi always has fanservice.... always. The decon plot was overkill, but still...)
How quickly people forget my signature. Not only do I enjoy fanservice I actively support it. It's just when it's disgustingly, eyeball scratchingly painful as the Decon plot things...... Gaaah!
Honestly I think Ent should have been MORE about going where ST has gone before. It's a prequel.... A prequel should not have a crapload of new stuff. Some yes, but I think Ent over did it there.
I agree. The issue with ENT is that it went with the Borg, the Ferengi and the like which is where we have gone a thousand times before!
ENT should have been more about the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and things like that. Things that we've seen a lot of, but we don't know a lot about.
where to start?
complete disregard for canon
the theme song SUCKED.
the whole t'pol first vulcan in starfleet TRIBBLE
the ferengi
the gorn
the antagonistic way the Vulcans were portrayed.
about the only thing I did like was the development of the andorians
How quickly people forget my signature. Not only do I enjoy fanservice I actively support it. It's just when it's disgustingly, eyeball scratchingly painful as the Decon plot things...... Gaaah!
Bolded for emphasis. Not refering to you just a few others who have citied it as a complaint. I'd be disappointed if there was none (besides...Jeri Ryan did VERY well carrying the character of Seven of Nine as she didn't let them shut her into Ms. Fanservice save for the outfit and still managed to pull off being badass...read this for a good portrayal of the character in fanfic).
EDIT: And if you want to know how much fan service I enjoy...I'll let you onto the bridge of the USS Eris and you can see all the fanservice! Which reminds me....does anyone know where I can get a ship patch siggy? Kinda want one. (Like the above post)
I have to say I didn't like the decon episode at all. Does it's existence make Ent bad? no.
I actually did like the way things were handled with the Borg. The Ferengi not so much. The Borg were a followup to First Contact. A small peice of the sphere survived and caused problems.
But yeah, more of the familiar races would have been nice.... Especially Orions.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
I actually did like the way things were handled with the Borg. The Ferengi not so much. The Borg were a followup to First Contact. A small peice of the sphere survived and caused problems.
Just because something is culturally relevant doesn't necessarily mean its going to be good television.
Bad theme song! Bad Space TRIBBLE! Bad show! Bad, bad show!
And I agree with someone earlier who pointed out that Enterprise didn't actually ruin the Borg by themselves. Voyager had ruined the Borg already by taking them from being the most feared thing in the galaxy and turning them into the twice-a-season-punching-bag for Janeway.
And I had totally forgotten the Enterprise Ferengi episode. That was awful.
The guy who played Shran - what a badass actor that guy is, thou. Shran, Wayoun, Brunt, and several other characters all done really well.
And I agree with someone earlier who pointed out that Enterprise didn't actually ruin the Borg by themselves. Voyager had ruined the Borg already by taking them from being the most feared thing in the galaxy and turning them into the twice-a-season-punching-bag for Janeway.
Agreed. If anything, Enterprise helped make the Borg scary again. The music for that episode was stupendous.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
You think so? With the thought of them running out of plots I didn't know whether to laugh in shame or cry out of pity.
I would say that they definitely had a little of their creepiness back.
My problem with the episode is with how Phlox (sp?) treats himself with radiation and is fine again. These are supposedly circa 2390 Borg that were defrosted, assimilated some new guys, who then started to assimilate Phlox, right?
So nobody in the TNG era ever tried to beat assimilation with radiation? Eh?
You think so? With the thought of them running out of plots I didn't know whether to laugh in shame or cry out of pity.
Have to admit, that's probably my favorite Borg episode, and agree with the above comment that it made the Borg scary again, rather than Janeway's punchbag. If anything, I think it was probably scarier for the audience, than it was 'in universe', because as the audience, we know exactly what the Borg are capable of. As far as Archer and the Happy Gang were concerned, this was just a bunch of gimped-up Tarkaleans to overcome, with no knowledge of what they were actually dealing with, and they were only able to deal with the drones they encountered as they were partially assimilated, and because the ship was being modified, not a regular cube. Had the NX-01 come up against a fully crewed cube, it would have been in serious trouble.
So nobody in the TNG era ever tried to beat assimilation with radiation? Eh?
How else do you think Doctor Crusher got all the Borg garbage out of Captain Picard after the cube was destroyed? Might've happened 'off screen', but it's plausible that Phlox's treatment remained on file for treating 'cybernetic infection'
Have to admit, that's probably my favorite Borg episode, and agree with the above comment that it made the Borg scary again, rather than Janeway's punchbag. If anything, I think it was probably scarier for the audience, than it was 'in universe', because as the audience, we know exactly what the Borg are capable of. As far as Archer and the Happy Gang were concerned, this was just a bunch of gimped-up Tarkaleans to overcome, with no knowledge of what they were actually dealing with, and they were only able to deal with the drones they encountered as they were partially assimilated, and because the ship was being modified, not a regular cube. Had the NX-01 come up against a fully crewed cube, it would have been in serious trouble.
I agree. They only had to deal with a few hastily modified individuals and a small retrofitted transport. Though they did have Borg adaptive shields....
Yeah, Phlox's treatment did nothing but disable the nanites.... on a fully assimilated individual it wouldn't work.
I agree. They only had to deal with a few hastily modified individuals and a small retrofitted transport. Though they did have Borg adaptive shields....
I would suggest that maybe the implants which generate the adaptive shields are the first ones to be internally replicated, but that was clearly not the case with Lieutenant Hawk (Although to be fair, the Tarkaleans were infected much longer than Hawk was...) Either way, I think more fully assimilated drones on board, or an encounter with an intact cube, and it would've been game over for the crew of the NX-01...
Yeah, Phlox's treatment did nothing but disable the nanites.... on a fully assimilated individual it wouldn't work.
I disagree. The first step in de-assimilating an individual once they're separated from the collective is to prevent further implants being internally replicated, or any removed implants being replaced. Shutting down the nanoprobes is the logical step in preventing that technological regeneration, so shutting down the nanoprobes would logically be the first step for a physician to take before attempting to start removing major hardware
It might work as part of a treatment protocol, but, clearly this was NOT done to Seven, Picard, maybe. My thought is that the actual implants probably have the ability to generate more.
The overall point I was trying to make is that this is a medical procedure not something that can be used as a weapon.
It might work as part of a treatment protocol, but, clearly this was NOT done to Seven, Picard, maybe. My thought is that the actual implants probably have the ability to generate more.
The overall point I was trying to make is that this is a medical procedure not something that can be used as a weapon.
But even discounting that, knowing Picard, you honestly expect me to believe they didn't comb the planet for Borg to make sure that didn't happen? Or Temporal Investigations? It was just a lazy excuse to shoehorn the Borg into Enterprise. :rolleyes:
Comments
Um, let's face it.... most of those are ST staples....
I actually thought that the Xindi were a pretty novel idea. Sure some people will go "They're just x, y, and z." Meh.... most of the tropes used in TOS were rehashed from older scifi. Go watch Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers some time.
And yes, I loved Empress Hoshi.
My character Tsin'xing
This is pretty much exactly what I said. But yes, Enterprise was just rehashed through and through. The Borg and Ferengi episodes are perfect examples.
And regular Archer wasn't?
There is "Staple" and then there is "This no longer has any cultural relevance".
I did like the Xindi as a race. The idea of these bizarre creatures working together as one is pretty cool. I just didn't really like the story that introduced them. :rolleyes:
I thought Archer was great. He may not have been a "perfect" character like Picard, but that's the whole point - humanity was taking its first steps into the galaxy, and the NX-01 crew had to learn from their mistakes. I think by the end of the show, Archer had matured and improved a lot.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
My character Tsin'xing
I never said he was a bad character. Flawed characters are the most interesting ones after all. He just never struck me as Captain material. I always thought that Archer should have been more like Sisko or Chief O'Brien. A military man and father to his crew sort of thing.
TRIBBLE.
Time Travel.
Villains we've already seen before. (Borg, Ferengi, Etc.)
"What is love?" plots.
"Humanity is infectious" plots.
Time Travel.
Forced fanservice (That damn Decon room).
The Borg.
And most importantly time Travel.
Basically, the reason why I hate Enterprise, and why I think a lot of other people do too, is that the things that should have been changed weren't, and the things that should have stayed the same were changed. (Theme song anyone?)
I'm really disappointed it never made it to the next season...I love Romulans and would of loved to see the season that deals with them.
Honestly I think Ent should have been MORE about going where ST has gone before. It's a prequel.... A prequel should not have a crapload of new stuff. Some yes, but I think Ent over did it there.
My character Tsin'xing
The bolded part is something I agree with as having grown up loving Sci-fi and if you want to argue that...let me point you in the direction of Flash Gordon and a few others as well. If you want to disagree this point, let me point you at the likes of Inara and River Tams and to the even more riduclous lengths anime sci-fi will go to for Fanservice. Warning, this pic is of Anime Catians, not STO Catians.
So yeah, I think me being an anime fan helped me to enjoy Enterprise despite it's flaws as well as liking the song.
How quickly people forget my signature. Not only do I enjoy fanservice I actively support it. It's just when it's disgustingly, eyeball scratchingly painful as the Decon plot things...... Gaaah!
I agree. The issue with ENT is that it went with the Borg, the Ferengi and the like which is where we have gone a thousand times before!
ENT should have been more about the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and things like that. Things that we've seen a lot of, but we don't know a lot about.
complete disregard for canon
the theme song SUCKED.
the whole t'pol first vulcan in starfleet TRIBBLE
the ferengi
the gorn
the antagonistic way the Vulcans were portrayed.
about the only thing I did like was the development of the andorians
Bolded for emphasis. Not refering to you just a few others who have citied it as a complaint. I'd be disappointed if there was none (besides...Jeri Ryan did VERY well carrying the character of Seven of Nine as she didn't let them shut her into Ms. Fanservice save for the outfit and still managed to pull off being badass...read this for a good portrayal of the character in fanfic).
EDIT: And if you want to know how much fan service I enjoy...I'll let you onto the bridge of the USS Eris and you can see all the fanservice! Which reminds me....does anyone know where I can get a ship patch siggy? Kinda want one. (Like the above post)
I actually did like the way things were handled with the Borg. The Ferengi not so much. The Borg were a followup to First Contact. A small peice of the sphere survived and caused problems.
But yeah, more of the familiar races would have been nice.... Especially Orions.
My character Tsin'xing
I think you're confusing the Suliban and the Xindi.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
I see most episodes of ENT this way. The Decon episode is just the the easiest to hate on. :P
I didn't. I blame Voyager for this though.
Also this. This did really bothered me.
My character Tsin'xing
Just because something is culturally relevant doesn't necessarily mean its going to be good television.
Bad theme song! Bad Space TRIBBLE! Bad show! Bad, bad show!
And I agree with someone earlier who pointed out that Enterprise didn't actually ruin the Borg by themselves. Voyager had ruined the Borg already by taking them from being the most feared thing in the galaxy and turning them into the twice-a-season-punching-bag for Janeway.
And I had totally forgotten the Enterprise Ferengi episode. That was awful.
The guy who played Shran - what a badass actor that guy is, thou. Shran, Wayoun, Brunt, and several other characters all done really well.
Agreed. If anything, Enterprise helped make the Borg scary again. The music for that episode was stupendous.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
You think so? With the thought of them running out of plots I didn't know whether to laugh in shame or cry out of pity.
I would say that they definitely had a little of their creepiness back.
My problem with the episode is with how Phlox (sp?) treats himself with radiation and is fine again. These are supposedly circa 2390 Borg that were defrosted, assimilated some new guys, who then started to assimilate Phlox, right?
So nobody in the TNG era ever tried to beat assimilation with radiation? Eh?
Yeah, Phlox's treatment did nothing but disable the nanites.... on a fully assimilated individual it wouldn't work.
My character Tsin'xing
I disagree. The first step in de-assimilating an individual once they're separated from the collective is to prevent further implants being internally replicated, or any removed implants being replaced. Shutting down the nanoprobes is the logical step in preventing that technological regeneration, so shutting down the nanoprobes would logically be the first step for a physician to take before attempting to start removing major hardware
The overall point I was trying to make is that this is a medical procedure not something that can be used as a weapon.
My character Tsin'xing
Which just reeks of lazy writing to me.
My character Tsin'xing
Using tropes is not a sign of bad writing. A McGuffin is just as valid a trope as any other.
No, it was just a rather poorly done retcon. As much of ENT was.
My character Tsin'xing
Quite possibly the biggest Star Trek Retcon ever says hello.
But even discounting that, knowing Picard, you honestly expect me to believe they didn't comb the planet for Borg to make sure that didn't happen? Or Temporal Investigations? It was just a lazy excuse to shoehorn the Borg into Enterprise. :rolleyes: