To answer the OP (haven' got time to read the rest!) I would agree that unlocking T5 has made the game better than the pre s7, it just sucked getting there while I could not add anything of note to improve my arsenal (I bought the two consoles, a set of Omega force armor, unlocked a couple of romulan store ground weapons to burn and a hyper plasma torpedo, none of which I've used other than the armor.)
However its the fixing of some of the new content which has made the game vastly better, the radiation scans andthe embassy officer of the watch that were just too bugged to bother trying and just felt like a slap in the face. Lets hope they sort out the space red alert, I've got the feeling its going to become another crystalline entity however.
That's no way to make money. Don't need to be a Vulcan, just a mature adult. Customers are not boyfriends/girlfriends, and something is VERY wrong if that level of emotion is being ascribed to what is merely a small-instance professional relationship.
If "I'm leaving" threads are banned by the forum TOS, then that's a(nother) sign that they don't really WANT to improve.
Again: leavers are what actually damages the game's/company's the bottom line, not complainers who stay. If they are so fragile that they can't even accept the very existence of leavers' complaints, then they (and the game) are doomed.
Exactly! Customers are Customers. By leaving, you are no longer a customer, and Cryptic no longer has any loyalties to you.
STO is the second game i play with longevity (years)
why i'Ve left WOW? cause i realized there is no interesting story, and to re-do the 25 man raids for the 40th time, waiting for another 24 people to get it right, hoping for a drop, and then not getting it, or even getting it is not really satisfying, and what is worse, there is no other way to play the game.
- ok, i then lvled myself a few PVP toons and got into it, then they nerfed subtlety behind recognition and that was it for me.
why i left the PVP game Bloodline Champions? a HUGE FUNNY game, but it is not funny to wait 25 minutes for a match which goes for 2 minutes..
why i still come back to STO? (i've had my breaks, lasting to 8 months)
- cause i LOVE Trek
- i love the PVP
- the devs are talking to us and if they are not telling the truth all the time, they aren't lying either
- i still hope for Romulan faction
- i like the system, and overall, it is a good, funny game with nice people and lovely zone chat
the i quit threads are
- unhealthy for community
- the persons which "quit" tend to come back anyway, cause the ones who wanna quit just quit and don't do this forum thing
Cryptic needs to do money and it is fine. i still try to give them some once in a while and i hope they will do their best. and the Romulan faction _:D
It is almost if you are enticing every Troller to hop on your train and ride the gravy train, instant Troll bait.
But I'll give you my reply:
Am I content with all the Season 7 Changes?
I still have issues with S7 in general, however; the Devs have made some effort to better the situation.
In regards to the Rep system:
Do I like it? No
What can I say, I am old school & despite the newly Rep system making it easier for 100% of the playerbase, the system still requires a cost & cheapens the status of endgame gear.
Typically in most MMO's endgame gear should be very difficult to come by - Take for example TERA; only one or two people out of the entire gaming community on the server has the complete endgame set of armor.
It should be a testament of your mettle, an accomplishment that you have endured, outwitted your foe, and that you have overcome impossible odds.
The Rep system just gives it away like a gift certificate with Dilithium cost to it.
To everyone's defense though, the nature of STO endgame was sadly implemented - it was suppose to be an endgame dungeon - but they made it into a slugfest where the Borg can instant kill you with invisible torps doing 9999999999999999999999 damage.
My hope is that Cryptic truly make another endgame dungeon that only a few can obtain the endgame gear - It should be a true and challenging dungeon, where one must outwit, gear up properly, and support one another with only one drop to be voted on.
make us a true Endgame dungeon for both space and Ground.
A New Mk XIII Set.
As much as I appreciate your great opinoins, I am gonnaa say NO Thank you to this. I have yet to truly even start this new system past Tier 1 and you want a level 13. Sorry this may be 2013, but lets keep all things to level 12.
Of course I'm still unhappy with the new system, but what point is there in beating a dead horse? Cryptic dose not care what I think about the new system. If they did then they would have made more drastic changes to it months ago.
It's pretty, and that's about the only good thing I can say about the new system.
I'm only recently coming back (started back up in Novemner after a year hiatus). Prior to the hiatus, I experimented with playing the STF. Between the internet connection (I was in Iraq at the time) and the fact that the ground STF's seemed to require a level of coordination that you couldn't get with a PUG typing over chat, I gave up trying to get good loot. Space was far easier to play, yet I never got lucky.
I played SWTOR, which originally had a universally disliked RNG system for endgame loot on Ilum. Between that and the overdone RNG on World of Tanks, I have a fond hatred of RNG.
To paraphrase a poster on the SWTOR forums (again, his words not mine) "What if the dev's paycheck was setup on an RNG? Have them role once a month. If your number comes up you get paid, if not, oh well. That's how we feel."
I'm sure I butured that, but you get the gist. The reputation system seems to be an attempt to get off the RNG, and I applaude that. However, I will acknowledge the grind involved. Infact, IMHO that is its major failing; the system as it stands now rewards patience more than anything else.
Truth be told, it does nothing but continue to perpetuate the (very true, at this point) notion of Asian/Asian-run MMORPGs being nothing but a long grindfest for no reason other than having a long grindfest for the hell of it. I figure either up the rewards or lower the prices.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I'm only recently coming back (started back up in Novemner after a year hiatus). Prior to the hiatus, I experimented with playing the STF. Between the internet connection (I was in Iraq at the time) and the fact that the ground STF's seemed to require a level of coordination that you couldn't get with a PUG typing over chat, I gave up trying to get good loot. Space was far easier to play, yet I never got lucky.
I played SWTOR, which originally had a universally disliked RNG system for endgame loot on Ilum. Between that and the overdone RNG on World of Tanks, I have a fond hatred of RNG.
To paraphrase a poster on the SWTOR forums (again, his words not mine) "What if the dev's paycheck was setup on an RNG? Have them role once a month. If your number comes up you get paid, if not, oh well. That's how we feel."
I'm sure I butured that, but you get the gist. The reputation system seems to be an attempt to get off the RNG, and I applaude that. However, I will acknowledge the grind involved. Infact, IMHO that is its major failing; the system as it stands now rewards patience more than anything else.
Truth be told, it does nothing but continue to perpetuate the (very true, at this point) notion of Asian/Asian-run MMORPGs being nothing but a long grindfest for no reason other than having a long grindfest for the hell of it. I figure either up the rewards or lower the prices.
I'm sorry in your opinion the RNG system was 'bad' because you didn't get what you wanted. However if you HAD completed your sets, your opinion could easily be swayed the other direction. Comparing getting a paycheck which you are guaranteed as long as you work the allotted number of hours to a GAME for which there is NO guarantee that you will receive ANYTHING within ANY period of time within the realm of RNG is moot and does not apply.
You are still grinding, it's just right in front of you now and you have a timer telling you how long your grind is going to be. If you prefer to have everything predictable, then more power to you. There is NO motivation behind what Cryptic did to the Rep system and nerfing STF drops for Omega gear other than the potential of getting longevity out of the content, and more revenue out of you since now you have to PAY for what used to be achieved for FREE with only a time investment. That **** costs DIL now, EC, boring grindy content to get tons of 'marks' and thats just to 'unlock' the ABILITY to buy these things with MORE DIL. Again, if you prefer the easy way of just paying and watching the clock to be rewarded with another timer to collect the reward(confused yet?) and that gives you a sense of accomplishment, then I feel sorry for you. RNG isn't 'great' but it provides a level of achievement, excitement, and dedication that is impossible to feel using the Rep system in my opinion.
I'm sorry in your opinion the RNG system was 'bad' because you didn't get what you wanted. However if you HAD completed your sets, your opinion could easily be swayed the other direction. Comparing getting a paycheck which you are guaranteed as long as you work the allotted number of hours to a GAME for which there is NO guarantee that you will receive ANYTHING within ANY period of time within the realm of RNG is moot and does not apply.
You are still grinding, it's just right in front of you now and you have a timer telling you how long your grind is going to be. If you prefer to have everything predictable, then more power to you. There is NO motivation behind what Cryptic did to the Rep system and nerfing STF drops for Omega gear other than the potential of getting longevity out of the content, and more revenue out of you since now you have to PAY for what used to be achieved for FREE with only a time investment. That **** costs DIL now, EC, boring grindy content to get tons of 'marks' and thats just to 'unlock' the ABILITY to buy these things with MORE DIL. Again, if you prefer the easy way of just paying and watching the clock to be rewarded with another timer to collect the reward(confused yet?) and that gives you a sense of accomplishment, then I feel sorry for you. RNG isn't 'great' but it provides a level of achievement, excitement, and dedication that is impossible to feel using the Rep system in my opinion.
The old system was crappy even when I got my set I did not feel joy, just never did STFs ever again and would never wish to go back, and with the new system I have not yet to spend real money unlocking anything, and feel joy that I know when I will get my stuff.
I'm sorry in your opinion the RNG system was 'bad' because you didn't get what you wanted. However if you HAD completed your sets, your opinion could easily be swayed the other direction.
Actually, no it wouldn't. I can say that since my feelings are the same, having been lucky enough to get a full set of gear while playing SWTOR. All it did was serve to agrivate, since nothing skill wise matter, all I had to do was get lucky (hell, in this game pre-S7 you could sit back, do nothing, and just hope you get something). At least with the Rep system I have to put in some actual work.
Comparing getting a paycheck which you are guaranteed as long as you work the allotted number of hours to a GAME for which there is NO guarantee that you will receive ANYTHING within ANY period of time within the realm of RNG is moot and does not apply.
You missed the point. The quote doesn't make a comparison, it is a what-if; what-if the dev's paycheck depended on RNG, how would they feel? Same principle. You work at something only to have some arbitrary RNG say "not your turn" while someone who did didly gets a good roll.
If you prefer to have everything predictable, then more power to you. There is NO motivation behind what Cryptic did to the Rep system and nerfing STF drops for Omega gear other than the potential of getting longevity out of the content, and more revenue out of you since now you have to PAY for what used to be achieved for FREE with only a time investment. That **** costs DIL now, EC, boring grindy content to get tons of 'marks' and thats just to 'unlock' the ABILITY to buy these things with MORE DIL..
Well, the previous system was also a time investment so you have no point there. And, I also acknowledged the rather exorbatant costs involved.
Again, if you prefer the easy way of just paying and watching the clock to be rewarded with another timer to collect the reward(confused yet?) and that gives you a sense of accomplishment, then I feel sorry for you.
Well, for those of us with lives, I think being able to put a little something in when I can is a good system, rather than continue to do something in the hopes that I might get a chance at getting. At least now, I can see what I am working for.
RNG isn't 'great' but it provides a level of achievement, excitement, and dedication that is impossible to feel using the Rep system in my opinion.
Getting lucky is no achievement.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Hmm, I guess I did leave it open for that setup LOL.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Actually, no it wouldn't. I can say that since my feelings are the same, having been lucky enough to get a full set of gear while playing SWTOR. All it did was serve to agrivate, since nothing skill wise matter, all I had to do was get lucky (hell, in this game pre-S7 you could sit back, do nothing, and just hope you get something). At least with the Rep system I have to put in some actual work.
You missed the point. The quote doesn't make a comparison, it is a what-if; what-if the dev's paycheck depended on RNG, how would they feel? Same principle. You work at something only to have some arbitrary RNG say "not your turn" while someone who did didly gets a good roll.
I already acknowledged that.
Well, the previous system was also a time investment so you have no point there. And, I also acknowledged the rather exorbatant costs involved.
Well, for those of us with lives, I think being able to put a little something in when I can is a good system, rather than continue to do something in the hopes that I might get a chance at getting. At least now, I can see what I am working for.
Getting lucky is no achievement.
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.
Then don't pay...Why are you paying my god man, you don't need to pay...why are you wasting money when you don't need to pay
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.
Sure, you need skill to complete the mission, but the end result required no skill at all. We put in the same amount of work, so why should RNG decide I don't get anything for my efforts?
An example: two soldiers on the firing range, each displaying skill enough to knock down 40 out of 40 targets with one round each. This brings up the company's score to best in the battalion. Their skill helped the whole team when. But then the commander decides to take soldier A out for a steak dinner. Why not soldier B? Surely the commander can afford both? Well, the commander just randomly deicded to treat soldier A. Soldier B will have to wait until the next competiton, and hope the commander decides it's his turn for recognition.
Same principle. Why should person A get rewarded for what was a team effort? Why should persons B, C and D get left out?
And what payment am I making that is so god awful it is an afront to man? If you mean the dilithium, big friggin deal, it's not like that stuff is hard to come buy. The stuff requiring EC isn't hard, as EC is very easy to come buy. The marks, I will give you that one; you do need alot of marks to unlock the ability to pay more marks to get the items.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Sure, you need skill to complete the mission, but the end result required no skill at all. We put in the same amount of work, so why should RNG decide I don't get anything for my efforts?
An example: two soldiers on the firing range, each displaying skill enough to knock down 40 out of 40 targets with one round each. This brings up the company's score to best in the battalion. Their skill helped the whole team when. But then the commander decides to take soldier A out for a steak dinner. Why not soldier B? Surely the commander can afford both? Well, the commander just randomly deicded to treat soldier A. Soldier B will have to wait until the next competiton, and hope the commander decides it's his turn for recognition.
Same principle. Why should person A get rewarded for what was a team effort? Why should persons B, C and D get left out?
I feel that the reward (or chance at it) should reflect the skill and effort displayed by the players in the group, not just whether they 'show up' or not. Let's say using your scenario, a soldier needs 40 hits to take everyone on the squad to dinner, only 5 to get himself taken to dinner. If soldier 'A' completes his 40 and soldier 'B' only hits 5, should he still go to dinner? He helped some, but he isn't trying very hard or caring very much about being a part of the Team, he just wants to get his own dinner and be done with it. Deserving? Maybe of a Lunchable or a granola bar, not going to dinner on the LT's dime. But again that's just my opinion. It would be nice if there was a slightly larger focus on 'Team' activities and working together....this game feels directed toward solo content lately.
I am against paying to pay again to pay to unlock something I just paid for previously so I can now pay to use it.
I feel that the reward (or chance at it) should reflect the skill and effort displayed by the players in the group, not just whether they 'show up' or not. Let's say using your scenario, a soldier needs 40 hits to take everyone on the squad to dinner, only 5 to get himself taken to dinner. If soldier 'A' completes his 40 and soldier 'B' only hits 5, should he still go to dinner? He helped some, but he isn't trying very hard or caring very much about being a part of the Team, he just wants to get his own dinner and be done with it. Deserving? Maybe of a Lunchable or a granola bar, not going to dinner on the LT's dime.
Looks like you are trying to shoehorn my scenario into your point. That scenario makes no sense but that is my fault for bringing it up and assuming people would automatically get it (in the Army, a soldier needs to hit 23 to qualify, 36 to gain expert, and many commanders have incentives for hitting all 40, and many battalions make a competition between the companies for best overall score). So no soldier would get rewarded with anything for only hitting 5 targets., and would probably get his initial score discounted from the overall score. Hell, he would probably be disciplined for sucking so bad but I digress.
Ulitmately though, your scenario kind of illustrates the point of the rep system; since the original reward is luck based, for many of the STf's (ISE is an example) you could barely pull your weight and still come out with rewards that those who worked for won't get because of a computer algarithim.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Honestly - NO content in STO requires the level of end-game skill or coordination (when compared to end game 'Raids' like in the original EverQuest, or World of ********). NONE.
A couple of the STFs require minimal coordination of a regular 5 man instance; BUT, you still had (and have the situation) where someone can go AFK, yet STILL get full rewards (or in the 'old days' prior to STO Season 7 - a MkXII M.A.C.O./Omega/Honor Guard set piece drop),
Thus in the end, sorry, I don't see the argument of:
"In the 'old days' of STFs gear was an indication of 'player skill'"
As honestly, that has never really been the case for STO - ever. It's as truly casual with regard to end game as an MMO can get.
The days of 'truly exceptional/rare' gear held by less than 1% of an MMOs player population (allowing said 'exceptional' players to garner 'awe' from those unable to really obtain such gear) are pretty much gone - even in games like EQ and WoW these days.
It's the same as players claiming the current level of 'grind' in STO is at the levels of a true 'Asian Grind' style MMO. As someone who played vanilla EQ back in 1999 - 2003; and vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade (backed off when WotLK hit) from 2005-2009; and who out of curiosity tried a few Asian F2P based MMOs (known for Grind) I can tell you STO's 'grind' (with all the Reputation and Starbase stuff, which I too participate in) is NOWHERE near the level that EQ, or WoW (in the era above) were; nor even close to a true 'Asian Grind' MMO.
That doesn't mean you have to like it, or accept it; but personally I find the 'STO is an Asian grindfest' claim seems to be used a lot by players who have no idea how bad that (or EQ back in the early days <--- This is teh model most Asian grind MMOs followed. And we're talking things like a Named MOB needed to complete a quest spawning ONCE a week in real time; the rest of the time it was placeholder MOBs) truly was/is.
You'll be hard pressed to find any successful 'feat/combat based' progression MMO out there that doesn't have 'grind' of some sort.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Looks like you are trying to shoehorn my scenario into your point. That scenario makes no sense but that is my fault for bringing it up and assuming people would automatically get it (in the Army, a soldier needs to hit 23 to qualify, 36 to gain expert, and many commanders have incentives for hitting all 40, and many battalions make a competition between the companies for best overall score). So no soldier would get rewarded with anything for only hitting 5 targets., and would probably get his initial score discounted from the overall score. Hell, he would probably be disciplined for sucking so bad but I digress.
We can agree to disagree then and that's fine, I'm not trying to convince you my opinion is 'correct', simply to just see it. I don't like the Rep system because it isn't fun, and requires us to pay for items that previously we only need invest time into. You choose to pay, and I do not.
Ulitmately though, your scenario kind of illustrates the point of the rep system; since the original reward is luck based, for many of the STf's (ISE is an example) you could barely pull your weight and still come out with rewards that those who worked for won't get because of a computer algarithim.
Unfortunately, this still applies under the new system.
It's the same as players claiming the current level of 'grind' in STO is at the levels of a true 'Asian Grind' style MMO. As someone who played vanilla EQ back in 1999 - 2003; and vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade (backed off when WotLK hit) from 2005-2009; and who out of curiosity tried a few Asian F2P based MMOs (known for Grind) I can tell you STO's 'grind' (with all the Reputation and Starbase stuff, which I too participate in) is NOWHERE near the level that EQ, or WoW (in the era above) were; nor even close to a true 'Asian Grind' MMO.
That doesn't mean you have to like it, or accept it; but personally I find the 'STO is an Asian grindfest' claim seems to be used a lot by players who have no idea how bad that (or EQ back in the early days <--- This is teh model most Asian grind MMOs followed. And we're talking things like a Named MOB needed to complete a quest spawning ONCE a week in real time; the rest of the time it was placeholder MOBs) truly was/is.
You'll be hard pressed to find any successful 'feat/combat based' progression MMO out there that doesn't have 'grind' of some sort.
I do not think this game has an 'Asian Grind' to it, at all. It has a 'Western' grind to it in my opinion, one that requires spending and I don't mean time. 'Asian Grinds' to me involve grinding the same mobs/instances over and over and over for drops, much like we were used to with the OLD STF's, albeit a dumbed down version of it. I remember when **** first came out, I had never experienced anything that grindy and to this day still haven't(they 'Westernized' it so its not that way anymore however). What we have now, to me, isn't a grind on much of anything except potentially your wallet/bank account, and sometimes your patience.
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.
What in the hell are you even talking about? Pay for what? I spent about 35 or so hours of in game time to acquire my T5 rep and that's it. I made the marks and dilithium to pay for a big chunk of gear in the process. That is a significantly smaller investment than any other MMO I've ever played. It didn't cost me a damn dollar either.
Unfortunately, this still applies under the new system.
Yes, but now he won't get immediately rewarded for it. He will have to sit and do nothing for a lot of games. For all that, I might as well play and get the non-Need/Greed loot and lend a hand. Under the old system, one could do nothing and get lucky. Now, one would have to do nothing alot of times, and that gets boring to the point where you might as well try to kill something. And at least you have to do other things if you want to quickly put resources into the Rep projects.
What in the hell are you even talking about? Pay for what? I spent about 35 or so hours of in game time to acquire my T5 rep and that's it. I made the marks and dilithium to pay for a big chunk of gear in the process. That is a significantly smaller investment than any other MMO I've ever played. It didn't cost me a damn dollar either.
I think he means the resources needed. We can all agree that the prices either border on or exceed the outrageous level, even if dilithium and consumables are easy to come across. It still is alot and does require grind.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I pretty much have to agree with everything lordagamemnonb5 has been saying. I find this idea that the old system rewarded skill baffling. You could be the most hardcore STF player in the group, and the system would just as easily give that Proto drop to the noob who just played their first elite ever. Your DPS didn't matter, and your team support and communication skills certainly didn't matter. Skill didn't matter then, and it doesn't matter now.
Would it be nice if there were a system that generally rewarded skilled players? Sure. But how do you judge that? Can't be DPS, people already rightly complain that this system unfairly favors Tactical/Escort captains in Fleet Actions. DPS is easy to measure though. If you did a lot of damage, then you as a TacScort did your job well. An Engineer might be encouraged to tank by rewarding damage taken (vs times killed), but we all know that it's tough for a cruiser to consistently pull aggro in this game since they don't have threat control skills. And Science, that's a total nightmare. You can reward heals, but there's no way to know how effectively they were used. Were they used on the right person at the right time, or just thrown out at random? A computer can't tell that. How much did crowd control affect the outcome? Again, no way a computer can measure that.
So, outside some sort of competition with GMs or skilled players serving as judges, I don't see how player skill can be accurately and fairly rewarded. If skill is not going to matter in either case, then simple progress toward a set goal is preferred to random chance.
There is one way that skill does matter that I haven't seen anybody bring up. If you are a skilled player, then your presence raises the success rate of any group you join. You will, on average, finish faster and hit more optionals. If you suck on the other hand, you lower the group's success rate. You will take longer to finish and miss more optionals. The incentive, therefore, to getting better is that you will get your gear faster. Faster as in less playthroughs (due to optionals) and faster as in time spent (due to faster completion times).
Would it be nice if there were a system that generally rewarded skilled players? Sure. But how do you judge that? Can't be DPS, people already rightly complain that this system unfairly favors Tactical/Escort captains in Fleet Actions. DPS is easy to measure though. If you did a lot of damage, then you as a TacScort did your job well. An Engineer might be encouraged to tank by rewarding damage taken (vs times killed), but we all know that it's tough for a cruiser to consistently pull aggro in this game since they don't have threat control skills. And Science, that's a total nightmare. You can reward heals, but there's no way to know how effectively they were used. Were they used on the right person at the right time, or just thrown out at random? A computer can't tell that. How much did crowd control affect the outcome? Again, no way a computer can measure that.
Maybe by adding a Most Valuable Player vote in the end. You can't vote for yourself, but you have to vote for someone before leaving. Like a window in the middle of your screen, can't miss it. The one with the most vote win the biggest loot, the second slightly less, etc... OFC, everyone have something in the end, and if you are a complete noob, you will still be able to buy something, someday.
So far, in the games I've seen that use it, it works pretty well, people usually vote for the healer, a friend or the best. Sometimes for a newcomer, so he can have more stuff more quickly, and become more effective.
Also, in Global Agenda, I remember a fansite with awesome stats, that was very accurate in determining who was the most efficient player of a game. It was not perfect, granted, but it was really accurate, and usually the one with the most point was a skilled player.
Season 7 when it first came out drove me away to SWTOR for a bit, but I'd still 'check in' daily, or at least every other day as I do lead a fairly large fleet and need to make sure its running. Once they started to have dilithium as a reward again in STFs, and also eventually making the Investigate Officer Reports Assignment fairer considering the console clickers were removed, and lastly the Winter Wonderland Event, I decided to slink back. I still don't play as much as I used to a year ago, but more then I did most of last autumn.
Do I like the reputation system? In short: No, but in the longer term its not really that terrible, but still it could be better. Projects could be cheaper and not cost as much supplies, even a 20-25% reduction would be nice especially in the latter tiers, also the 20 hour project completion time seems long for a personal project, but that could just be me. For a fleet project it works fine as your dealing with larger more difficult task that involve an entire fleet. Lastly there's just too many dilithium sinks, and now an energy credit sink that's a little too vacuuming on the ECs. Plus dilithium does take longer to earn, which isn't very favorable if your someone that only plays for maybe an hour or 2 each day on most days. Plus the whole reputation thing has made doing STFs less appealing as you can play just about any one to get marks, which can make it seem like each one gets less people that queue up for them and a few of the STFs are just plain impossible unless you have top gear and a top notch team, which isn't the case most of the time.
So add that to the list of other bugs that have been mentioned, the Exchange, Fleet Events Calendar, Missing Torps amongst other things. All which originally drove me away for awhile along with the grindfest that is endgame, and it makes it hard for the game to have the same appeal as when I first started playing. Are they slowly starting to fix stuff? Yes, but there's alot more that needs to be done. Finish the KDF faction for one thing and Nerf the Tholian Red Alerts a little more. Its still very hard to win those things despite the slight fix they made to them.
I just hope for STO's sake that Season 8 is much better then Season 7, which seems to be the season of fail, but that's perhaps not everyone's opinion.
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.... I just hope for STO's sake that Season 8 is much better then Season 7, which seems to be the season of fail, but that's perhaps not everyone's opinion.
Season 7 was a season of pain for the older veteran playerbase - refreshing for those who fully embrace PWE & the F2P model, along with the newcomers to the game.
The more seasoned crowd frowned upon season 7 with extreme prejudicism, since it introduce us to more grind and drove us to diversify our means of Dilithium acquisition.
I fear for season 8, yet at the same time looking at it as a possible bright spot, let me explain:
I have always loved the KDF side, more than I do the Federation. If season 8 means that the KDF will possiby be given its much deserved treatment, resulting in becoming a fully fledge Faction, than I am on board.
However; This is what I fear - I fear that it will also carry with it some of Season 7 mentality in the sense of Ultimate Grind.
Fed players will most likely whine & moan that the Federation may not be receiving a substantial amounts of changes in season 8 - Let the KDF have its due. - Nuff said
Comments
However its the fixing of some of the new content which has made the game vastly better, the radiation scans andthe embassy officer of the watch that were just too bugged to bother trying and just felt like a slap in the face. Lets hope they sort out the space red alert, I've got the feeling its going to become another crystalline entity however.
Exactly! Customers are Customers. By leaving, you are no longer a customer, and Cryptic no longer has any loyalties to you.
why i'Ve left WOW? cause i realized there is no interesting story, and to re-do the 25 man raids for the 40th time, waiting for another 24 people to get it right, hoping for a drop, and then not getting it, or even getting it is not really satisfying, and what is worse, there is no other way to play the game.
- ok, i then lvled myself a few PVP toons and got into it, then they nerfed subtlety behind recognition and that was it for me.
why i left the PVP game Bloodline Champions? a HUGE FUNNY game, but it is not funny to wait 25 minutes for a match which goes for 2 minutes..
why i still come back to STO? (i've had my breaks, lasting to 8 months)
- cause i LOVE Trek
- i love the PVP
- the devs are talking to us and if they are not telling the truth all the time, they aren't lying either
- i still hope for Romulan faction
- i like the system, and overall, it is a good, funny game with nice people and lovely zone chat
the i quit threads are
- unhealthy for community
- the persons which "quit" tend to come back anyway, cause the ones who wanna quit just quit and don't do this forum thing
Cryptic needs to do money and it is fine. i still try to give them some once in a while and i hope they will do their best. and the Romulan faction _:D
As much as I appreciate your great opinoins, I am gonnaa say NO Thank you to this. I have yet to truly even start this new system past Tier 1 and you want a level 13. Sorry this may be 2013, but lets keep all things to level 12.
It's pretty, and that's about the only good thing I can say about the new system.
I played SWTOR, which originally had a universally disliked RNG system for endgame loot on Ilum. Between that and the overdone RNG on World of Tanks, I have a fond hatred of RNG.
To paraphrase a poster on the SWTOR forums (again, his words not mine) "What if the dev's paycheck was setup on an RNG? Have them role once a month. If your number comes up you get paid, if not, oh well. That's how we feel."
I'm sure I butured that, but you get the gist. The reputation system seems to be an attempt to get off the RNG, and I applaude that. However, I will acknowledge the grind involved. Infact, IMHO that is its major failing; the system as it stands now rewards patience more than anything else.
Truth be told, it does nothing but continue to perpetuate the (very true, at this point) notion of Asian/Asian-run MMORPGs being nothing but a long grindfest for no reason other than having a long grindfest for the hell of it. I figure either up the rewards or lower the prices.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I'm sorry in your opinion the RNG system was 'bad' because you didn't get what you wanted. However if you HAD completed your sets, your opinion could easily be swayed the other direction. Comparing getting a paycheck which you are guaranteed as long as you work the allotted number of hours to a GAME for which there is NO guarantee that you will receive ANYTHING within ANY period of time within the realm of RNG is moot and does not apply.
You are still grinding, it's just right in front of you now and you have a timer telling you how long your grind is going to be. If you prefer to have everything predictable, then more power to you. There is NO motivation behind what Cryptic did to the Rep system and nerfing STF drops for Omega gear other than the potential of getting longevity out of the content, and more revenue out of you since now you have to PAY for what used to be achieved for FREE with only a time investment. That **** costs DIL now, EC, boring grindy content to get tons of 'marks' and thats just to 'unlock' the ABILITY to buy these things with MORE DIL. Again, if you prefer the easy way of just paying and watching the clock to be rewarded with another timer to collect the reward(confused yet?) and that gives you a sense of accomplishment, then I feel sorry for you. RNG isn't 'great' but it provides a level of achievement, excitement, and dedication that is impossible to feel using the Rep system in my opinion.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
The old system was crappy even when I got my set I did not feel joy, just never did STFs ever again and would never wish to go back, and with the new system I have not yet to spend real money unlocking anything, and feel joy that I know when I will get my stuff.
Actually, no it wouldn't. I can say that since my feelings are the same, having been lucky enough to get a full set of gear while playing SWTOR. All it did was serve to agrivate, since nothing skill wise matter, all I had to do was get lucky (hell, in this game pre-S7 you could sit back, do nothing, and just hope you get something). At least with the Rep system I have to put in some actual work.
You missed the point. The quote doesn't make a comparison, it is a what-if; what-if the dev's paycheck depended on RNG, how would they feel? Same principle. You work at something only to have some arbitrary RNG say "not your turn" while someone who did didly gets a good roll.
I already acknowledged that.
Well, the previous system was also a time investment so you have no point there. And, I also acknowledged the rather exorbatant costs involved.
Well, for those of us with lives, I think being able to put a little something in when I can is a good system, rather than continue to do something in the hopes that I might get a chance at getting. At least now, I can see what I am working for.
Getting lucky is no achievement.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
WHAT? I wasted my Teen years for nothing?!?!?!
lol could not resist a setup like that
Hmm, I guess I did leave it open for that setup LOL.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
Then don't pay...Why are you paying my god man, you don't need to pay...why are you wasting money when you don't need to pay
Sure, you need skill to complete the mission, but the end result required no skill at all. We put in the same amount of work, so why should RNG decide I don't get anything for my efforts?
An example: two soldiers on the firing range, each displaying skill enough to knock down 40 out of 40 targets with one round each. This brings up the company's score to best in the battalion. Their skill helped the whole team when. But then the commander decides to take soldier A out for a steak dinner. Why not soldier B? Surely the commander can afford both? Well, the commander just randomly deicded to treat soldier A. Soldier B will have to wait until the next competiton, and hope the commander decides it's his turn for recognition.
Same principle. Why should person A get rewarded for what was a team effort? Why should persons B, C and D get left out?
And what payment am I making that is so god awful it is an afront to man? If you mean the dilithium, big friggin deal, it's not like that stuff is hard to come buy. The stuff requiring EC isn't hard, as EC is very easy to come buy. The marks, I will give you that one; you do need alot of marks to unlock the ability to pay more marks to get the items.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I feel that the reward (or chance at it) should reflect the skill and effort displayed by the players in the group, not just whether they 'show up' or not. Let's say using your scenario, a soldier needs 40 hits to take everyone on the squad to dinner, only 5 to get himself taken to dinner. If soldier 'A' completes his 40 and soldier 'B' only hits 5, should he still go to dinner? He helped some, but he isn't trying very hard or caring very much about being a part of the Team, he just wants to get his own dinner and be done with it. Deserving? Maybe of a Lunchable or a granola bar, not going to dinner on the LT's dime. But again that's just my opinion. It would be nice if there was a slightly larger focus on 'Team' activities and working together....this game feels directed toward solo content lately.
I am against paying to pay again to pay to unlock something I just paid for previously so I can now pay to use it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
Looks like you are trying to shoehorn my scenario into your point. That scenario makes no sense but that is my fault for bringing it up and assuming people would automatically get it (in the Army, a soldier needs to hit 23 to qualify, 36 to gain expert, and many commanders have incentives for hitting all 40, and many battalions make a competition between the companies for best overall score). So no soldier would get rewarded with anything for only hitting 5 targets., and would probably get his initial score discounted from the overall score. Hell, he would probably be disciplined for sucking so bad but I digress.
Ulitmately though, your scenario kind of illustrates the point of the rep system; since the original reward is luck based, for many of the STf's (ISE is an example) you could barely pull your weight and still come out with rewards that those who worked for won't get because of a computer algarithim.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
A couple of the STFs require minimal coordination of a regular 5 man instance; BUT, you still had (and have the situation) where someone can go AFK, yet STILL get full rewards (or in the 'old days' prior to STO Season 7 - a MkXII M.A.C.O./Omega/Honor Guard set piece drop),
Thus in the end, sorry, I don't see the argument of:
"In the 'old days' of STFs gear was an indication of 'player skill'"
As honestly, that has never really been the case for STO - ever. It's as truly casual with regard to end game as an MMO can get.
The days of 'truly exceptional/rare' gear held by less than 1% of an MMOs player population (allowing said 'exceptional' players to garner 'awe' from those unable to really obtain such gear) are pretty much gone - even in games like EQ and WoW these days.
It's the same as players claiming the current level of 'grind' in STO is at the levels of a true 'Asian Grind' style MMO. As someone who played vanilla EQ back in 1999 - 2003; and vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade (backed off when WotLK hit) from 2005-2009; and who out of curiosity tried a few Asian F2P based MMOs (known for Grind) I can tell you STO's 'grind' (with all the Reputation and Starbase stuff, which I too participate in) is NOWHERE near the level that EQ, or WoW (in the era above) were; nor even close to a true 'Asian Grind' MMO.
That doesn't mean you have to like it, or accept it; but personally I find the 'STO is an Asian grindfest' claim seems to be used a lot by players who have no idea how bad that (or EQ back in the early days <--- This is teh model most Asian grind MMOs followed. And we're talking things like a Named MOB needed to complete a quest spawning ONCE a week in real time; the rest of the time it was placeholder MOBs) truly was/is.
You'll be hard pressed to find any successful 'feat/combat based' progression MMO out there that doesn't have 'grind' of some sort.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
We can agree to disagree then and that's fine, I'm not trying to convince you my opinion is 'correct', simply to just see it. I don't like the Rep system because it isn't fun, and requires us to pay for items that previously we only need invest time into. You choose to pay, and I do not.
Unfortunately, this still applies under the new system.
I do not think this game has an 'Asian Grind' to it, at all. It has a 'Western' grind to it in my opinion, one that requires spending and I don't mean time. 'Asian Grinds' to me involve grinding the same mobs/instances over and over and over for drops, much like we were used to with the OLD STF's, albeit a dumbed down version of it. I remember when **** first came out, I had never experienced anything that grindy and to this day still haven't(they 'Westernized' it so its not that way anymore however). What we have now, to me, isn't a grind on much of anything except potentially your wallet/bank account, and sometimes your patience.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
What in the hell are you even talking about? Pay for what? I spent about 35 or so hours of in game time to acquire my T5 rep and that's it. I made the marks and dilithium to pay for a big chunk of gear in the process. That is a significantly smaller investment than any other MMO I've ever played. It didn't cost me a damn dollar either.
Yes, but now he won't get immediately rewarded for it. He will have to sit and do nothing for a lot of games. For all that, I might as well play and get the non-Need/Greed loot and lend a hand. Under the old system, one could do nothing and get lucky. Now, one would have to do nothing alot of times, and that gets boring to the point where you might as well try to kill something. And at least you have to do other things if you want to quickly put resources into the Rep projects.
I think he means the resources needed. We can all agree that the prices either border on or exceed the outrageous level, even if dilithium and consumables are easy to come across. It still is alot and does require grind.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Would it be nice if there were a system that generally rewarded skilled players? Sure. But how do you judge that? Can't be DPS, people already rightly complain that this system unfairly favors Tactical/Escort captains in Fleet Actions. DPS is easy to measure though. If you did a lot of damage, then you as a TacScort did your job well. An Engineer might be encouraged to tank by rewarding damage taken (vs times killed), but we all know that it's tough for a cruiser to consistently pull aggro in this game since they don't have threat control skills. And Science, that's a total nightmare. You can reward heals, but there's no way to know how effectively they were used. Were they used on the right person at the right time, or just thrown out at random? A computer can't tell that. How much did crowd control affect the outcome? Again, no way a computer can measure that.
So, outside some sort of competition with GMs or skilled players serving as judges, I don't see how player skill can be accurately and fairly rewarded. If skill is not going to matter in either case, then simple progress toward a set goal is preferred to random chance.
There is one way that skill does matter that I haven't seen anybody bring up. If you are a skilled player, then your presence raises the success rate of any group you join. You will, on average, finish faster and hit more optionals. If you suck on the other hand, you lower the group's success rate. You will take longer to finish and miss more optionals. The incentive, therefore, to getting better is that you will get your gear faster. Faster as in less playthroughs (due to optionals) and faster as in time spent (due to faster completion times).
So far, in the games I've seen that use it, it works pretty well, people usually vote for the healer, a friend or the best. Sometimes for a newcomer, so he can have more stuff more quickly, and become more effective.
Also, in Global Agenda, I remember a fansite with awesome stats, that was very accurate in determining who was the most efficient player of a game. It was not perfect, granted, but it was really accurate, and usually the one with the most point was a skilled player.
Do I like the reputation system? In short: No, but in the longer term its not really that terrible, but still it could be better. Projects could be cheaper and not cost as much supplies, even a 20-25% reduction would be nice especially in the latter tiers, also the 20 hour project completion time seems long for a personal project, but that could just be me. For a fleet project it works fine as your dealing with larger more difficult task that involve an entire fleet. Lastly there's just too many dilithium sinks, and now an energy credit sink that's a little too vacuuming on the ECs. Plus dilithium does take longer to earn, which isn't very favorable if your someone that only plays for maybe an hour or 2 each day on most days. Plus the whole reputation thing has made doing STFs less appealing as you can play just about any one to get marks, which can make it seem like each one gets less people that queue up for them and a few of the STFs are just plain impossible unless you have top gear and a top notch team, which isn't the case most of the time.
So add that to the list of other bugs that have been mentioned, the Exchange, Fleet Events Calendar, Missing Torps amongst other things. All which originally drove me away for awhile along with the grindfest that is endgame, and it makes it hard for the game to have the same appeal as when I first started playing. Are they slowly starting to fix stuff? Yes, but there's alot more that needs to be done. Finish the KDF faction for one thing and Nerf the Tholian Red Alerts a little more. Its still very hard to win those things despite the slight fix they made to them.
I just hope for STO's sake that Season 8 is much better then Season 7, which seems to be the season of fail, but that's perhaps not everyone's opinion.
Season 7 was a season of pain for the older veteran playerbase - refreshing for those who fully embrace PWE & the F2P model, along with the newcomers to the game.
The more seasoned crowd frowned upon season 7 with extreme prejudicism, since it introduce us to more grind and drove us to diversify our means of Dilithium acquisition.
I fear for season 8, yet at the same time looking at it as a possible bright spot, let me explain:
I have always loved the KDF side, more than I do the Federation. If season 8 means that the KDF will possiby be given its much deserved treatment, resulting in becoming a fully fledge Faction, than I am on board.
However; This is what I fear - I fear that it will also carry with it some of Season 7 mentality in the sense of Ultimate Grind.
Fed players will most likely whine & moan that the Federation may not be receiving a substantial amounts of changes in season 8 - Let the KDF have its due. - Nuff said