...You simply are not going to do much of anything within the established timers with a bunch of beam cruisers plinking away, and that's a fact.
Cruisers serve no role other than to soak up damage....
Of course, another aspect of the problem is that cruisers (particularly "standard" saucer-on-a-neck-and-two-nacelles-on-long-pylons" cruisers) are kind of the thing many people expect out of Star Trek. So new players, who haven't run into any discussions of any of this stuff, probably tend to gravitate towards cruisers.... the prototypical "Star Trek" ships.
(And then get stuck... I know that my first character, a Tac, has been in a Sovereign since lv40. Because you don't get another free ship at 50, it's $25 to get a regular 50 ship, and getting a different 40 ship costs a bucketload of dil. Of course, she'll be driving around a Breen ship soon enough, but in the meantime.... yet another Tac in a cruiser. :rolleyes:)
But in PvE Sci seems almost useless - and PvE makes up 95% of the game - why have Sci skills been nerfed so hard??
Xantris said sci captains. They're set up by sci captains, the kills are.
The problem is normal, everyday sci skills that the 'Average Joe' player can use, is exactly that: Usable to anyone.
Including tacs, who used Tac buffs to epicify the damage of sci skills and demolish whole groups easily. Examples include TBR, Gravity Well, and so on.
So the skills were nerfed because of mega-buffed damages, instead of the simpler idea of just preventing tacs from buffing sci skills like that in the first place.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Sorry to say this, but the reason thoose classes seem less useless now, is not because of nerfs or debuffs, but because people don't seem to be able to accept their role, and play as the class they choose.
This is very, very true.
Is it any surprise the number one complaint seems to be "my cruiser isn't doing as much damage as an escort!!"?
If you fly them how they are supposed to be, every class is a league of there own. However, if you want to play your Sci to fly like a Tac and skill TRIBBLE, you are bound to fail.
I fly with all of them and are happy. You can actually do some things with Eng/Sci a Tac can only dream of.
So check your build and dont whine about how your Sci cant DPS like a Tac, because its not meant to be played like one.
On a side note: My Healing-Carrier Sci gets better drops than my high dps tactician, even though the letter is always number one with damage (Combatlog).
perfectly stated. this is one area which people dont get. learn your role.
on that stated science and engineering ships have been nerfed big time. i have been flying sci ships from the start and have seen how much the science abilities have become almost useless.
on that note i have been doing a lot of private pvp with teammates and it is amazing that i am tanking better in a mirror qin than most cruisers. and there are not 2 minute dps kills but 10 minute duels with me using but the most basic offensive skills just to make it fair and i still tank better. there is just something wrong with that picture.
Is it any surprise the number one complaint seems to be "my cruiser isn't doing as much damage as an escort!!"?
On the flip side though, escorts have been buffed beyond belief and tactical captains can have their cake and eat it too. I think the main problems are:
1) Science space skills are no longer powerful enough.
2) Science space skills are not buffed enough by science training, science class bonuses, and auxiliary power anymore.
3) Escorts are supposed to be "glass cannons", but they have achieved a real measure of survivability without the help of science or engineering heals thanks to tactical team's overwhelming awesomeness. Science team and engineering team are jokes compare to it.
I've been one shotted by tactical captains in PvP before through full shields. That should not be possible.
On the flip side though, escorts have been buffed beyond belief and tactical captains can have their cake and eat it too. I think the main problems are:
Before you go too nuts on pointing out Escort buffs, you might want to think back to Season 2, where total escort damage/survival potential was reduced by almost 75%?
Back then, I easily hit 3500 damage without any buffs or crits pr volley...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
On the flip side though, escorts have been buffed beyond belief and tactical captains can have their cake and eat it too. I think the main problems are:
1) Science space skills are no longer powerful enough.
2) Science space skills are not buffed enough by science training, science class bonuses, and auxiliary power anymore.
3) Escorts are supposed to be "glass cannons", but they have achieved a real measure of survivability without the help of science or engineering heals thanks to tactical team's overwhelming awesomeness. Science team and engineering team are jokes compare to it.
I've been one shotted by tactical captains in PvP before through full shields. That should not be possible.
Is PvPer whining the number 1 reason Sci skills have been nerfed to almost useless?
And escorts have way too much hull or Crusiers way too little
there is no way a Defiant should have the 2/3 the hull of an Oddy which is 10x bigger!!
Is PvPer whining the number 1 reason Sci skills have been nerfed to almost useless?
No, PvPers like science stuff want want to use it. It's the influx of new players from when the game went to F2P who didn't want to learn how to deal with science powers who complained and got them changed.
I've given up on space though. My Tachyon Beam III with full aux and fully specced/consoled doesn't even do anything in PvE anymore, let alone to an opposing player.
On the ground, science isn't so bad, it's engineers who need help there. The only way you'll make Tac the only viable career is to increase their survivability to the point where they no longer need backup. Unfortunately, things seem to be going that way lately, but we'll see.
Joined: January 2010
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On the ground, science isn't so bad, it's engineers who need help there. The only way you'll make Tac the only viable career is to increase their survivability to the point where they no longer need backup. Unfortunately, things seem to be going that way lately, but we'll see.
On PVE with my engi, I can nuke a whole pack of borg alone with mines + bomb. Properly specced with explosives.
But sure, if you play the crappyturret, they suck bad, and it will take several hours to kill anything with it. They deserve a buff.
The orbital strike is simply awesome. Far better than the security team from tac. Against borgs, the security team will spam draw fire, and die in less than 3shots, while doing crappy DPS.
On the other hand, when you play your sci on ground for DPS and not healing, it's subpar IMO. The damage doesn't even come close. Throw the fire AOE (can't remember the name), and every mob start running away (granted, a bit slow for borgs), while with my mines/orbital strike, it's a 1time hit, and they are affected for full effect.
the reason I think that players believe Tact is best, and eng sci are not worth it is "timed missions/optionals" that there is no way of completing unless you DPS them.
take timers off optionals, and make them more Sci/Eng friendly.
namely, turrets/pets causeing spawns to come at bad times, or being the targets of abilitys that jump from target to target, hitting not only 1 sci/eng pet/turret, but all of them, and the sci/eng itself.
also the IGE end room map? the borg themselves can't jump those, and can't survive in the pasma, that's like me tearing out my liveingroom floor and installing a pool of acid, with an ocasional jumping block here and there. (I thought Borg where "efficient" not stupid)
He comes with the ability to boost all my power levels, reduce power drain, a FREE shield hardener and an elite instant heal ability to both hull and shields.
If anything it is because of the engineer type that I am able to fly cruisers as an effective command ship. I can use my BO skills for my team rather than myself simply because of my innate skills.
If your only measure of success is DMG stats then yeah I'm subpar but in terms of team support I'm aces.
Well if you show up for a fight with 5 engineers you are going to have a problem, if nothing else trying to get the optional.
I think since the game isn't scripted to have classes, maybe outside CGE without glitching, it makes sense the most damage wins everytime.
And to tell you the truth I still haven't even learned to play yet. I only have 1 of each class to try the different abilities and animations out.
To this day I will slap random gear and abilties together and go play elite like a walk in the park because that's how low the bar is.
If STO required successful diverse gameplay from all classes and successful builds the failure rate on stf would simply be too high ground and space alike.
I like abilities from all classes and outside the few times you are going for optionals in your life it doesn't really matter.
Same reason you can be a sci in tactical ship or any other combo you want I guess it adds more freedom too when you look at it.
I actually think Tactical captains are one of the most limited captains. They do more damage... period. Which is great in a ship equipped for dps, but a tactical captain doesn't (IMO) seem to bring much benefit in a cruiser or science ship that makes a huge difference.
On the other hand, an Engineer in an escort... wow! Yeah, can't alpha as much as a tac/escort, but being able to flood the ship with energy gives you speed, boosts healing due to Aux, shields, etc.
Add to that the ability to recover from damage quickly is a huge benefit when getting hammered in an escort -- the ability to survive and bug out and then come back guns ablazin' is huge.
I think the tricks of Science captains also add a lot.
I have a tactical captain, and I really don't feel the benefit from experimentation as I do in my other captains.
Now, mind you, tac/escorts (or raiders on redside) are really easy and really effective. I think, though, that engineers and science captains are a bit more _interesting_ to play.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
My tactical character face rolls all pve content except hive elite but i do a great job there with her as well , she performs as well or better than anyone ive done that stf with
If i cant tank it i can run out of its range for a few seconds to let my buffs recharge , most of the time i can kill whatever it is before my defenses are overcome I almost never die in any stf, By far the best pve character i have and is easy to play
its easy to carry a pug team and max out dilithium with my escort, Escort is King
My Engineer , I am totally dissapointed in all of the cruisers, there is no role for the cruiser in pve.low dps and high defense mean very very little in any stf. Cruisers need a massive boost in dps to compete and not be a lialibility in pve content . All content is DPS driven there is no need for a ship of this type, And it is the most Star trek of all ships in this game
Its not uncommon to join a pug with 3 or 4 cruisers in it,they are very popular because there Star trek icon ships.Much work needs to be done to the pve cruiser class
My science character can tank with debuffing much better than a cruiser can but still has a low dps. her dps is gained by her debuffing the target allowing others to gain even more dps but the DPS reward is never hers so . It is dissapointing to pay this role when others in escorts get the best rewards for my efforts and i get the scraps
in closing ..........Go escort its a dps game with the rewards all geared to the MOST dps
you can also get more out of any ship class with a tac character be it a cruiser or science ship and have more fun with it.
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Cryptic is catering primarily to the Escorts. They can farm the fastest with theri high dps.
Engineer is still viable for tanking, but that is all about it.
Cryptic is catering primarily to the Escorts. They can farm the fastest with theri high dps.
Engineer is still viable for tanking, but that is all about it.
Science is a useless career.
The only Ship I find Sci pretty usefull is in a B'rel torp boat - you don't need the DPS or the weapons power or shields - but debuffing the target is nice. But even that they have nerfed sci powers so much you can't really knock out shields or systems any more - or more than a second or two.
The problem with Science isn't limited to this game -- it's VERY difficult to make good, balanced control abilities in games.
I mean, big dangerous boss that you can punch a button and take out of the fight? Devs aren't thrilled with that.
In PvP, being shut down for some/all of a fight also is really irritating.
So I'd point out that in EVERY game there is a complaint about control being too powerful/overly nerfed. Over and over.
It's tough. I personally think the key is to add a debuff 'lesser' effect of control -- like 'your targetting is debuffed, and if it's bad enough you go blind' or 'perfect effect is confusion, lesser effect is chance of shots not going off.' Or whatever.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Currently I have a Tactical and a Science captain. The science captain with all the correct science buffs does pretty good for me. My tactical on the other hand is a tank basically and deals out decent damage for the setup I am using.
I would use the escorts I have but as of now my cruisers deal more damage and survive longer than my escort does.
I do how ever agree with buffing up the cruiser hull strength. 52,000 hull for a Galaxy X class "dreadnought" using Mk XII rare neutronium Alloy hull plating seems a little low. I cant get in game to check but I think my 2 year anniversary Odyssey with a Mk XI rare neutronium alloy hull plating was at 55,000 hull.
I will tell you this...my science character Saban many times flew into PVP against pre-mades in his Fleet Nova torp boat running full aux and simply kicked a lot of bottie scoring 2nd or 3rd in total damage/kills on a PVP head count of 10 people....
So no one will make be believe Science is a weak character...no one...
There are enough Sci flying around. And they are the backbone of every team. If they heal or debuff the enemy, they are the worst enemy you can get.
I played once with a friend of mine, and most of the time a was unable to do anything because Viral Matrix and Subnuke. A was out cold there. The only thing that was helping him survive was the stupidity of the enemy, because nobody fired upon him
I will tell you this...my science character Saban many times flew into PVP against pre-mades in his Fleet Nova torp boat running full aux and simply kicked a lot of bottie scoring 2nd or 3rd in total damage/kills on a PVP head count of 10 people....
So no one will make be believe Science is a weak character...no one...
That is all.
Saban out.
You do realize that sci characters sci ships are next to useless in STF's, right?
Happily my team is pretty good (even though we have a substitute in over the christmas period who is not so hot as the man he replaced We miss our Carrier commander)
Comments
Of course, another aspect of the problem is that cruisers (particularly "standard" saucer-on-a-neck-and-two-nacelles-on-long-pylons" cruisers) are kind of the thing many people expect out of Star Trek. So new players, who haven't run into any discussions of any of this stuff, probably tend to gravitate towards cruisers.... the prototypical "Star Trek" ships.
(And then get stuck... I know that my first character, a Tac, has been in a Sovereign since lv40. Because you don't get another free ship at 50, it's $25 to get a regular 50 ship, and getting a different 40 ship costs a bucketload of dil. Of course, she'll be driving around a Breen ship soon enough, but in the meantime.... yet another Tac in a cruiser. :rolleyes:)
Science is still extremely strong in PvP. Almost every kill in organized PvP is set up by science captains.
But in PvE Sci seems almost useless - and PvE makes up 95% of the game - why have Sci skills been nerfed so hard??
Xantris said sci captains. They're set up by sci captains, the kills are.
The problem is normal, everyday sci skills that the 'Average Joe' player can use, is exactly that: Usable to anyone.
Including tacs, who used Tac buffs to epicify the damage of sci skills and demolish whole groups easily. Examples include TBR, Gravity Well, and so on.
So the skills were nerfed because of mega-buffed damages, instead of the simpler idea of just preventing tacs from buffing sci skills like that in the first place.
This is very, very true.
Is it any surprise the number one complaint seems to be "my cruiser isn't doing as much damage as an escort!!"?
perfectly stated. this is one area which people dont get. learn your role.
on that stated science and engineering ships have been nerfed big time. i have been flying sci ships from the start and have seen how much the science abilities have become almost useless.
on that note i have been doing a lot of private pvp with teammates and it is amazing that i am tanking better in a mirror qin than most cruisers. and there are not 2 minute dps kills but 10 minute duels with me using but the most basic offensive skills just to make it fair and i still tank better. there is just something wrong with that picture.
On the flip side though, escorts have been buffed beyond belief and tactical captains can have their cake and eat it too. I think the main problems are:
1) Science space skills are no longer powerful enough.
2) Science space skills are not buffed enough by science training, science class bonuses, and auxiliary power anymore.
3) Escorts are supposed to be "glass cannons", but they have achieved a real measure of survivability without the help of science or engineering heals thanks to tactical team's overwhelming awesomeness. Science team and engineering team are jokes compare to it.
I've been one shotted by tactical captains in PvP before through full shields. That should not be possible.
Before you go too nuts on pointing out Escort buffs, you might want to think back to Season 2, where total escort damage/survival potential was reduced by almost 75%?
Back then, I easily hit 3500 damage without any buffs or crits pr volley...
Is PvPer whining the number 1 reason Sci skills have been nerfed to almost useless?
And escorts have way too much hull or Crusiers way too little
there is no way a Defiant should have the 2/3 the hull of an Oddy which is 10x bigger!!
I've given up on space though. My Tachyon Beam III with full aux and fully specced/consoled doesn't even do anything in PvE anymore, let alone to an opposing player.
On the ground, science isn't so bad, it's engineers who need help there. The only way you'll make Tac the only viable career is to increase their survivability to the point where they no longer need backup. Unfortunately, things seem to be going that way lately, but we'll see.
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But sure, if you play the crappyturret, they suck bad, and it will take several hours to kill anything with it. They deserve a buff.
The orbital strike is simply awesome. Far better than the security team from tac. Against borgs, the security team will spam draw fire, and die in less than 3shots, while doing crappy DPS.
On the other hand, when you play your sci on ground for DPS and not healing, it's subpar IMO. The damage doesn't even come close. Throw the fire AOE (can't remember the name), and every mob start running away (granted, a bit slow for borgs), while with my mines/orbital strike, it's a 1time hit, and they are affected for full effect.
take timers off optionals, and make them more Sci/Eng friendly.
namely, turrets/pets causeing spawns to come at bad times, or being the targets of abilitys that jump from target to target, hitting not only 1 sci/eng pet/turret, but all of them, and the sci/eng itself.
also the IGE end room map? the borg themselves can't jump those, and can't survive in the pasma, that's like me tearing out my liveingroom floor and installing a pool of acid, with an ocasional jumping block here and there. (I thought Borg where "efficient" not stupid)
He comes with the ability to boost all my power levels, reduce power drain, a FREE shield hardener and an elite instant heal ability to both hull and shields.
If anything it is because of the engineer type that I am able to fly cruisers as an effective command ship. I can use my BO skills for my team rather than myself simply because of my innate skills.
If your only measure of success is DMG stats then yeah I'm subpar but in terms of team support I'm aces.
My "role" is whatever the **** I say it is, and I do just fine.
I think since the game isn't scripted to have classes, maybe outside CGE without glitching, it makes sense the most damage wins everytime.
And to tell you the truth I still haven't even learned to play yet. I only have 1 of each class to try the different abilities and animations out.
To this day I will slap random gear and abilties together and go play elite like a walk in the park because that's how low the bar is.
If STO required successful diverse gameplay from all classes and successful builds the failure rate on stf would simply be too high ground and space alike.
I like abilities from all classes and outside the few times you are going for optionals in your life it doesn't really matter.
Same reason you can be a sci in tactical ship or any other combo you want I guess it adds more freedom too when you look at it.
Engineers can do plenty of damage in escorts.
On the other hand, an Engineer in an escort... wow! Yeah, can't alpha as much as a tac/escort, but being able to flood the ship with energy gives you speed, boosts healing due to Aux, shields, etc.
Add to that the ability to recover from damage quickly is a huge benefit when getting hammered in an escort -- the ability to survive and bug out and then come back guns ablazin' is huge.
I think the tricks of Science captains also add a lot.
I have a tactical captain, and I really don't feel the benefit from experimentation as I do in my other captains.
Now, mind you, tac/escorts (or raiders on redside) are really easy and really effective. I think, though, that engineers and science captains are a bit more _interesting_ to play.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
why are the Hull strength so close for ships so different:
Like the Jem bug - with max skill the hull can get close to 50k
The Oddy which is masive and a tank in space with max skill can get to around 58K
The Jem Bug could almost fit in the oddy cargo bay.
The oddy should therefore have a hull well in excess of 100k
A Jem bug and a Oddy should be fighting it out for 5 min - not 5 seconds if the oddy is caught off guard
The Balance in this game is ridiculous between Escorts and Crusiers
My tactical character face rolls all pve content except hive elite but i do a great job there with her as well , she performs as well or better than anyone ive done that stf with
If i cant tank it i can run out of its range for a few seconds to let my buffs recharge , most of the time i can kill whatever it is before my defenses are overcome I almost never die in any stf, By far the best pve character i have and is easy to play
its easy to carry a pug team and max out dilithium with my escort, Escort is King
My Engineer , I am totally dissapointed in all of the cruisers, there is no role for the cruiser in pve.low dps and high defense mean very very little in any stf. Cruisers need a massive boost in dps to compete and not be a lialibility in pve content . All content is DPS driven there is no need for a ship of this type, And it is the most Star trek of all ships in this game
Its not uncommon to join a pug with 3 or 4 cruisers in it,they are very popular because there Star trek icon ships.Much work needs to be done to the pve cruiser class
My science character can tank with debuffing much better than a cruiser can but still has a low dps. her dps is gained by her debuffing the target allowing others to gain even more dps but the DPS reward is never hers so . It is dissapointing to pay this role when others in escorts get the best rewards for my efforts and i get the scraps
in closing ..........Go escort its a dps game with the rewards all geared to the MOST dps
you can also get more out of any ship class with a tac character be it a cruiser or science ship and have more fun with it.
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Engineer is still viable for tanking, but that is all about it.
Science is a useless career.
The only Ship I find Sci pretty usefull is in a B'rel torp boat - you don't need the DPS or the weapons power or shields - but debuffing the target is nice. But even that they have nerfed sci powers so much you can't really knock out shields or systems any more - or more than a second or two.
I mean, big dangerous boss that you can punch a button and take out of the fight? Devs aren't thrilled with that.
In PvP, being shut down for some/all of a fight also is really irritating.
So I'd point out that in EVERY game there is a complaint about control being too powerful/overly nerfed. Over and over.
It's tough. I personally think the key is to add a debuff 'lesser' effect of control -- like 'your targetting is debuffed, and if it's bad enough you go blind' or 'perfect effect is confusion, lesser effect is chance of shots not going off.' Or whatever.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
The ships I use though are as follows
Tactical : Cruisers
Science : Science vessles
Engineering : Cruisers
I would use the escorts I have but as of now my cruisers deal more damage and survive longer than my escort does.
I do how ever agree with buffing up the cruiser hull strength. 52,000 hull for a Galaxy X class "dreadnought" using Mk XII rare neutronium Alloy hull plating seems a little low. I cant get in game to check but I think my 2 year anniversary Odyssey with a Mk XI rare neutronium alloy hull plating was at 55,000 hull.
So no one will make be believe Science is a weak character...no one...
That is all.
Saban out.
You do realize that sci characters sci ships are next to useless in STF's, right?
Infact anyone who can't do a STF in a badly speced rainbow escort with a sci should practice more
STFS are EASY
They're easy if your team is worth a ****.