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Is Cryptic Making tactical Captain the only Viable Career?

born2bwild1born2bwild1 Member Posts: 1,329 Arc User
I don't know if it's just me who notices but it seems like every patch they keep on nerfing Sci and Eng skills - sci especially!

It's almost worthless to roll these.

Why do they keep giving them the nerf?

This game seems to be going in only 1 direction - DPS everything - is that all people want?

Who's making them keep nerfing Sci skills or not making Sci and Eng more playable professions?
Post edited by born2bwild1 on
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Comments

  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Love running my Engineers.
    Always have.
    Nothing has changed that, and I feel no less effective than I used to.
  • born2bwild1born2bwild1 Member Posts: 1,329 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    hippiejon wrote: »
    Love running my Engineers.
    Always have.
    Nothing has changed that, and I feel no less effective than I used to.

    What about Sci? Seems they have been nerfed into gimps.
  • duaths1duaths1 Member Posts: 1,232 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    What about Sci? Seems they have been nerfed into gimps.

    yeah... my KDF sci in a b'Rel is VERY good for PVP.

    has some issues in PVE though..

    my KDF Tac has NO issues..
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I love to play my engi, in ground. In space, I prefer to play my tac. To be honest, I play my engi with an escort, always hated the cruisers turn rate.
    However, I found my Sci being annoying for both ground and space. Using a sci vessel. You can be a healer (and not earn anything from group content), or a gimped DPS. Maybe the CC are fine, but I never liked being the controller in a MMO.

    When I made my sci guy, I though my gun damage would be TRIBBLE, but my sci skill would make a lot more damage, and I would be some kind of caster, IE using more power than my weapon. For both space and ground. With 100power in auxiliary instead of weapon. But in the end, you are blasting your way around like anyone else, and using crappy power for some damage.
    Also, in most content, CC are useless/don't work.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Tacs actually need some improvement
    they currently lack "redshirt" potential

    A Tac should come with an automatic maxed out threat control (and the option to turn it on and off) and be the only officer allowed to carry rifles in general use
    Live long and Prosper
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I can kill stuff with my sci, faster than I can with my tac... And I fly straight carrer oriented builds...

    Tac captain = Escort
    Eng captain = Cruiser
    Sci Captain = Sci vessel

    Sorry to say this, but the reason thoose classes seem less useless now, is not because of nerfs or debuffs, but because people don't seem to be able to accept their role, and play as the class they choose.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
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  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    If you fly them how they are supposed to be, every class is a league of there own. However, if you want to play your Sci to fly like a Tac and skill TRIBBLE, you are bound to fail.

    I fly with all of them and are happy. You can actually do some things with Eng/Sci a Tac can only dream of.

    So check your build and dont whine about how your Sci cant DPS like a Tac, because its not meant to be played like one.

    On a side note: My Healing-Carrier Sci gets better drops than my high dps tactician, even though the letter is always number one with damage (Combatlog).
  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    if all you care about is DPS you can spec an Eng or Sci to out DPS the average tac
    its all a matter of knowing how to do it

    (and frankly I can't be bothered to do it and am not sure how)

    some people can do it

    of course Tacs have the life expectancy of a solid ice frying pan
    Live long and Prosper
  • drudgydrudgy Member Posts: 367 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I've been running my Engineer's pretty heavy lately to be honest. Hardly ever play my Tactical's or Sci captains as much as I should be. To top it all off I've been flying my Galaxy-X in PVP with some pretty good success. As far as PvE goes really anything can work out just fine in just about whatever ship you want. I typically don't have any problems doing any of the missions on Tac, Sci, or Eng.
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,921 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    To be honest there are times where I wish I could change my sci officer and eng to tac...but all of the time and EC I put into them isn't worth losing.
  • kyeto13kyeto13 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    woodwhity wrote: »
    If you fly them how they are supposed to be, every class is a league of there own. However, if you want to play your Sci to fly like a Tac and skill TRIBBLE, you are bound to fail.

    I fly with all of them and are happy. You can actually do some things with Eng/Sci a Tac can only dream of.

    So check your build and dont whine about how your Sci cant DPS like a Tac, because its not meant to be played like one.

    On a side note: My Healing-Carrier Sci gets better drops than my high dps tactician, even though the letter is always number one with damage (Combatlog).

    This... If you play a Science officer and keep comparing yourself to a Tac officer, you are going to be disappointed. You are just not going to get the raw DPS out of it. However, instead of timing out how fast you can blow up targets, measure yourself with how many debuffs you can stack on a single target, you will have a better idea on how well you are player that class.

    For the record, I've tagged one target with the following all at once:
    Subsystem: Target Aux
    Energy Siphon
    Energy Siphon proc: Weapons Shut Down
    Viral Matrix
    Attack Pattern Beta
    Sensor Scan
    10X Sensor analysis
    Phaser proc
    Tachyon beam
    Tractor beam

    Bad times were had by all :D
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  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Missions are easy anyone can do most of them without dying

    STFs are harder

    its Pvp that seems to be the bone here
    Live long and Prosper
  • born2bwild1born2bwild1 Member Posts: 1,329 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I guess it's just that the game is geared mostly towards DPS and the other things don't have much use in general. STF is just a DPS fest.

    How many people use Sci in PvP? other then a Cloaked B'rel torp boat.

    I know that if sci skills are used in PvP that knocked any tac cap powers out for longer than 1 milisecond there was crying and screaming and keyboard smashing to high heaven - and a huge whinefest to Cryptic to get them nerfed.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I guess it's just that the game is geared mostly towards DPS and the other things don't have much use in general. STF is just a DPS fest.

    How many people use Sci in PvP? other then a Cloaked B'rel torp boat.

    I know that if sci skills are used in PvP that knocked any tac cap powers out for longer than 1 milisecond there was crying and screaming and keyboard smashing to high heaven - and a huge whinefest to Cryptic to get them nerfed.

    There are enough Sci flying around. And they are the backbone of every team. If they heal or debuff the enemy, they are the worst enemy you can get.

    I played once with a friend of mine, and most of the time a was unable to do anything because Viral Matrix and Subnuke. A was out cold there. The only thing that was helping him survive was the stupidity of the enemy, because nobody fired upon him :D
  • born2bwild1born2bwild1 Member Posts: 1,329 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    woodwhity wrote: »
    There are enough Sci flying around. And they are the backbone of every team. If they heal or debuff the enemy, they are the worst enemy you can get.

    I played once with a friend of mine, and most of the time a was unable to do anything because Viral Matrix and Subnuke. A was out cold there. The only thing that was helping him survive was the stupidity of the enemy, because nobody fired upon him :D

    Didn't subnuke and sensor scan get a nerf in the last little while?
  • hrisvalarhrisvalar Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    DPS is just easiest to see. If you last longer in a fight (Engineer) it's okay if it takes longer to kill the other guy. Likewise, if you can debuff the other guy to do less damage to you (Science) then you have more time as well.

    It looks like you're doing worse, cause all the Tactical captains come in and steal your thunder by offing your distracted or half-crippled targets in a few seconds, but really, from a strictly combat performance/survival point of view, you're not. (Unless you're doing it wrong. I found I started doing a lot better when I stopped trying to run my science toon in her science ship like I ran my tacs and engineers in cruisers and escorts, and focused more on the abilities. Though I'll admit I wish those would do a little more actual damage.)

    It does make Tactical officers the more practical choice, though, for those who run missions to farm resources. Simply because they do what they do, faster. It does skew STFs in their favor. Engineers' resistances and Science's Debuffs don't add time to the optional/fail clock, perhaps they should find a way in which they could, but even if they did, people would want to go in and get their marks and dilithium quickly. Likewise, I don't believe damage resisted or debuff ticks register toward how well you're doing in a Fleet Action, to determine your placement in the final ranking, when they definately should.

    So basically, in a straight up fight, I think the ships and classes are a lot more balanced than people often claim. (I do maintain there are a lot of complaining science officers running science ships outfitted like escorts. Obviously they're not going to do as well as the actual escorts then. I have thirteen alts. I found setups for ships that I think work very well, for three of those. (One of each class.) It's not exactly what you'd call easy.)

    The problem, where there is one, is in the priorities the game itself sets. Those need to change. Cause when you change the classes to do better in one of those, they'll do worse in another.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    No.


    /thread.
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  • admiraljt#1430 admiraljt Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    In PVP there is nothing scarier to me then a well trained Sci officer in a Sci ship. When I see one flying about all sensor scanny I just want to run and hide. I'll gladly face a Tac in an escort, all he is gonna do is shoot at me. But Science Officers have to many different tricks up there sleeve. If they're not snaring you with Tractor beams and Gravity wells, They're stripping your shields with all that bad JuJu they got at their disposal.
  • born2bwild1born2bwild1 Member Posts: 1,329 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    hrisvalar wrote: »
    DPS is just easiest to see. If you last longer in a fight (Engineer) it's okay if it takes longer to kill the other guy. Likewise, if you can debuff the other guy to do less damage to you (Science) then you have more time as well.

    It looks like you're doing worse, cause all the Tactical captains come in and steal your thunder by offing your distracted or half-crippled targets in a few seconds, but really, from a strictly combat performance/survival point of view, you're not. (Unless you're doing it wrong. I found I started doing a lot better when I stopped trying to run my science toon in her science ship like I ran my tacs and engineers in cruisers and escorts, and focused more on the abilities. Though I'll admit I wish those would do a little more actual damage.)

    It does make Tactical officers the more practical choice, though, for those who run missions to farm resources. Simply because they do what they do, faster. It does skew STFs in their favor. Engineers' resistances and Science's Debuffs don't add time to the optional/fail clock, perhaps they should find a way in which they could, but even if they did, people would want to go in and get their marks and dilithium quickly. Likewise, I don't believe damage resisted or debuff ticks register toward how well you're doing in a Fleet Action, to determine your placement in the final ranking, when they definately should.

    So basically, in a straight up fight, I think the ships and classes are a lot more balanced than people often claim. (I do maintain there are a lot of complaining science officers running science ships outfitted like escorts. Obviously they're not going to do as well as the actual escorts then. I have thirteen alts. I found setups for ships that I think work very well, for three of those. (One of each class.) It's not exactly what you'd call easy.)

    The problem, where there is one, is in the priorities the game itself sets. Those need to change. Cause when you change the classes to do better in one of those, they'll do worse in another.

    Well I keep hearing complaints from people all the time in STF's or Fleet actions that the team just does not have enough DPS and they are raging about not getting whatever objective because there are too many sci or eng on the team - like more than one!!
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Didn't subnuke and sensor scan get a nerf in the last little while?

    It still has the 30sec debuff and you lose all your buffs. And here is the enemy of alpha strike. And to top it, you cant activate other abilities because their CD ist doubled. Quite the nice skill.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Well I keep hearing complaints from people all the time in STF's or Fleet actions that the team just does not have enough DPS and they are raging about not getting whatever objective because there are too many sci or eng on the team - like more than one!!

    My fleet beat ISE and CSE with a Sci only team, in Sci-vessels. With optional. People just doing it wrong. And when I look at some Tacs, I can only laugh at the numbers popping up over their enemies.
  • zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The problem with STFs is that people make really tough or completely incoherent builds for cruisers and then show up.

    Tanks and healers are the sorts of things that in most games it's nice to have one of -- one, no more, no less.

    When a bunch of hard but toothless cruisers (or, worse, just slapped together cruisers) show up to a STF... stuff doesn't get done.


    Generally, DPS is the easiest road to success because 'kill that stuff' is, generally, easier to design for. More people are likely to get it right.

    Now, in many STFs, stuff like gravity well and some judicious healing can be really helpful. But fewer people know how to use these effectively.


    In short, Tactical is an easier career because more people can get it mostly right.
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  • erraberrab Member Posts: 1,434 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    anazonda wrote: »
    I can kill stuff with my sci, faster than I can with my tac... And I fly straight carrer oriented builds...

    Tac captain = Escort
    Eng captain = Cruiser
    Sci Captain = Sci vessel

    Sorry to say this, but the reason thoose classes seem less useless now, is not because of nerfs or debuffs, but because people don't seem to be able to accept their role, and play as the class they choose.

    I kind of agree with this statement.

    Some players want it all the DPS, Tanking and Crowd Control all in one package but that's just not possible in this MMO (Unless you roll Science in the Vo'Quv ;) )

    I do feel that we should be able to better tailor our roles based off of our own preferences but Cryptic just does not have the tec (or perhaps the will) to implement that level of customization.

    Sadly if DPS is what you what you better be rolling a Tac
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Well I keep hearing complaints from people all the time in STF's or Fleet actions that the team just does not have enough DPS and they are raging about not getting whatever objective because there are too many sci or eng on the team - like more than one!!

    Would not those complaints point more towards a need for a well balanced team?

    Seems to me if the STF groups are complaining they have too many Sci's or Eng's then they need more Tac's to balance thier team out to ensure success
    Just a thought, since STFs are team based missions and all.....
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  • lostusthornlostusthorn Member Posts: 844
    edited December 2012
    The problem is that those classes even exist or matter in the first place.
    The captain is commanding the ship, not sitting at them helm or manning the tactical station to fire the weapon herself. Our crew is doing that for us.
    On the ground it is different, there you are actually playing your captain. But in space, you playing as your full crew.
  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I don't agree with the rigid career roles. You can build a decent jack-of-all trades from any kind of toon with a little trial-and-error, making full use of devices/consumables/reputation/DOFF skills, investing in solid consoles, etc.

    No, that does not mean it's acceptible to bring your stupid SCI rainbow cruiser with boarding party shuttles into an STF. :mad:
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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The problem is that those classes even exist or matter in the first place.
    The captain is commanding the ship, not sitting at them helm or manning the tactical station to fire the weapon herself. Our crew is doing that for us.
    On the ground it is different, there you are actually playing your captain. But in space, you playing as your full crew.

    You are correct. Our Players merely captain the ship and accent its purpose through use of the captain Powers that came with our choice of class, our BOffs do all the heavy lifting as we tell them what to do through thier BOff abilities.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I find my sci captains abilities useful in space pvp, not so much in pve. On ground sci is still great for both pvp and pve.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • logicalspocklogicalspock Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I think science Captains have been utterly decimated in space skills, especially in PvP.

    On the ground, I think my science Captain can pretty much take all comers. In STFs, if I have a good team, he can also do a respectable amount of AOE damage.
  • sekritagentsekritagent Member Posts: 510 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    zahinder wrote: »
    The problem with STFs is that people make really tough or completely incoherent builds for cruisers and then show up.

    Tanks and healers are the sorts of things that in most games it's nice to have one of -- one, no more, no less.

    When a bunch of hard but toothless cruisers (or, worse, just slapped together cruisers) show up to a STF... stuff doesn't get done.


    Generally, DPS is the easiest road to success because 'kill that stuff' is, generally, easier to design for. More people are likely to get it right.

    Now, in many STFs, stuff like gravity well and some judicious healing can be really helpful. But fewer people know how to use these effectively.


    In short, Tactical is an easier career because more people can get it mostly right.

    There are SO many people in STO who talk ad nauseam about space combat and somehow SO few who just don't get it. You, sir, get it and thank you for educating the unwashed masses. You simply are not going to do much of anything within the established timers with a bunch of beam cruisers plinking away, and that's a fact.

    Cruisers serve no role other than to soak up damage which isn't the most useful function except in a very limited number of scenarios:
    • Certain PVP encounters
    • Hive Onslaught Elite where you need to tank and heal
    • Boldly They Rode or Tholian Red Alerts...wherever there's copious NPC spam

    Cruisers need a small buff to damage like Science got with Sensor Analysis, and wouldn't mind a similarly-sized insta-heal nerf since there's too much of that in STO space combat anyway. Specifically I'd like to see cruisers with beam arrays be able to hit out from 12km, and if you stack some Energy Weapons doffs, up to 15km max. If not that, then give beam arrays on cruisers a flat accuracy bonus.
    hanover2 wrote: »
    I don't agree with the rigid career roles. You can build a decent jack-of-all trades from any kind of toon with a little trial-and-error, making full use of devices/consumables/reputation/DOFF skills, investing in solid consoles, etc.

    No, that does not mean it's acceptible to bring your stupid SCI rainbow cruiser with boarding party shuttles into an STF. :mad:

    This is usually more trouble than it's worth since you only fly one ship at a time anyway. But I do keep certain ships on all my Fed toons since they're so effective: Patrol Escort, Advanced Escort w/ MVAM, Freebie Odyssey, and Armitage.
    Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it! No, seriously! ...Why are you laughing so hard? :(
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