cryptic, please... finish your work before you release it

darimund

this whole game wreaks of half finished content. I don't understand how you can be pleased with yourself for half assing everything from environments to code updates. You wonder why you can't figure out why invisible torpedoes happen? cuz you rushed your garbage out and you've gotten so far behind you can't figure out where it started. The players don't need to be your beta testers, you've got your own staff for that, not to mention, wait for it... test servers! I know you use them occasionally but when you ignore feedback on them and send stuff half completed to live servers that's just extremely unprofessional.

I make fun of you guys a lot, and ya know, I don't feel bad for that in the least. I don't know if its you feel like competition is forcing you to rush development or if overlord stahl and PWE execs are demanding that you meet unrealistic deadlines, but have some pride. Stand up for yourself and don't release content until its finished!

My god we've got a whole playable faction that's been half completed since it was launched and there's no sign that you're EVER going to finish it, yet you always manage to rush out something else that's not finished. We've got ships that don't have matching bridges, planets that looks worse than TOS planets... Infact... what in this game have you relased that's 100% completed? Anything? Granted I don't play every single bit of data that's offered in this game, but honestly... what is finished? What bugs have you actually fixed?

There's an old saying... do it right the first time and you wont have to do it again. Granted, your history has been meh, good enough. But really, imo, no its not good enough and I honestly doubt I'm alone in that assessment.

We play this game because we're trek fans. Not because we're cryptic fans or PWE fans. If you want to get us in your corner, you gotta meet us half way. If you drive us off, what are you going to do next? Looking at the games offered by cryptic and PWE, theres nothing i'm the least bit interested in playing so if you push me away, i'm completely done with your organization. Is that good business?

All I'm asking you to do is put in some effort. Create something that you can honestly say you're proud of. Don't continue to rush your work, because if you don't have a product that's worth buying, people wont buy it.

dwadsdwad

Don't tell them that... We will never get content!

They still havn't finished 'fixing' the pvp queues and the pvp in general that they started about 4 months or so after release.

I could put out a huge list of incomplete projects that we have but it would be a bit upsetting and shameful.

dariusmajere

darimund wrote: »

this whole game wreaks of half finished content. I don't understand how you can be pleased with yourself for half assing everything from environments to code updates. You wonder why you can't figure out why invisible torpedoes happen? cuz you rushed your garbage out and you've gotten so far behind you can't figure out where it started. The players don't need to be your beta testers, you've got your own staff for that, not to mention, wait for it... test servers! I know you use them occasionally but when you ignore feedback on them and send stuff half completed to live servers that's just extremely unprofessional.

I make fun of you guys a lot, and ya know, I don't feel bad for that in the least. I don't know if its you feel like competition is forcing you to rush development or if overlord stahl and PWE execs are demanding that you meet unrealistic deadlines, but have some pride. Stand up for yourself and don't release content until its finished!

My god we've got a whole playable faction that's been half completed since it was launched and there's no sign that you're EVER going to finish it, yet you always manage to rush out something else that's not finished. We've got ships that don't have matching bridges, planets that looks worse than TOS planets... Infact... what in this game have you relased that's 100% completed? Anything? Granted I don't play every single bit of data that's offered in this game, but honestly... what is finished? What bugs have you actually fixed?

There's an old saying... do it right the first time and you wont have to do it again. Granted, your history has been meh, good enough. But really, imo, no its not good enough and I honestly doubt I'm alone in that assessment.

We play this game because we're trek fans. Not because we're cryptic fans or PWE fans. If you want to get us in your corner, you gotta meet us half way. If you drive us off, what are you going to do next? Looking at the games offered by cryptic and PWE, theres nothing i'm the least bit interested in playing so if you push me away, i'm completely done with your organization. Is that good business?

All I'm asking you to do is put in some effort. Create something that you can honestly say you're proud of. Don't continue to rush your work, because if you don't have a product that's worth buying, people wont buy it.

Not sure how many mmo's you have been in, but for going on its 3rd year for a game that got dropped on there lap and being converted onto there engine slowly, they are not doing bad. Hell look at games with much larger studios and financial back where they are.. TOR barely could hold subs due to its issues they didnt even make a year before plunging F2P with one of the worst micro markets i have ever seen.

Better yet..have you seen Diablo 3 put out by mega developer BLIZZARD and all its issues and it literallyhas parts that did not make it to release yet. Heavy nerfing done to items in games and the destruction of what made Diablio 2 last so long with the now big push to aid casuals and blow off the elitist niche market the game series had.

STO for its age is doing pretty good. Not the best, but still above the grade. Most games do not start becoming strong until the 5th year. Hell eve online is on its 18th expansion since 2003 and only the last few expansions has it been fixing issues from 2003 to now.

darimund

I've played mmo's going on 20 years. This one is really by far the worst hastily thrown together mountain of TRIBBLE I've ever seen (and yes I played TOR, I was an EGA player). Devs are tossing out unfinished content and they start work on the next batch. whether they intend to come back and finish it or not, they don't. Every patch there's a new bug, some times it gets fixed but id say a good 75% of the time, they don't.

Where's the point that its deemed acceptable? Where's the polls of the people that play this game to show what they want to see done? I'm not saying the players need to decide what content is going to be developed, but instead of going off some stupid metrics, ask the people that play if they want to see the Klingon faction get finished or not. Ask the players if they want to have a proper bridge included with the new ship that's going to be released or not.

I'm fairly certain that the players responses will differ than a math equation (which I've been told a few times now that math isn't cryptic's strong suit). Instead what I see is players saying X change is no good, this is why.... reason reason reason reason, dev's say. ok, we'll do it anyway. I go... WTF

And then, players say, hey, heres a bug, such and such isn't working right. No response from devs. Players bring up bug again, no reply, or my personal favorite reply was "we have no idea how to fix it". Eventually, people get tired of bringing it up, bug goes unfixed and forgotten.

Honestly, if I had known that STO was going to be like it is, I never would have paid for a lifetime sub, or put any cash into this game at all. It's star trek... ish, and yes that's some what enjoyable, but beyond that... what value is there to this game in its current state? If I didn't have this life time sub, I would have quit playing a long time ago but I'm damn sure going to get what I deem to be my monies worth out of it.

What I really see is that cryptic and PWE are riding on the coat tails of the Star Trek franchise and have little interest in putting quality into their work. Yes, most of the ship models looks good, hell I've played around in 3ds max and have made ship models before. It's not that hard, but anything organic in this game... psh, garbage. Story and immersion... not really there. Is it any wonder Stahl said the average life expectancy of players is something like 32 days?

Once the ooo Star Trek wears off, people see this game for what it is, very unfinished and full of bugs and they quit playing and move on to something else.

I'm not expecting perfection, I just want an honest attempt to make this game something worth while, otherwise its just like TOR, a lousy attempt at cashing in on a dieing franchise. I want cryptic to show me they care about STO. I don't think that's too much to ask of them.

dariusmajere

darimund wrote: »

I've played mmo's going on 20 years. This one is really by far the worst hastily thrown together mountain of TRIBBLE I've ever seen (and yes I played TOR, I was an EGA player). Devs are tossing out unfinished content and they start work on the next batch. whether they intend to come back and finish it or not, they don't. Every patch there's a new bug, some times it gets fixed but id say a good 75% of the time, they don't.

Where's the point that its deemed acceptable? Where's the polls of the people that play this game to show what they want to see done? I'm not saying the players need to decide what content is going to be developed, but instead of going off some stupid metrics, ask the people that play if they want to see the Klingon faction get finished or not. Ask the players if they want to have a proper bridge included with the new ship that's going to be released or not.

I'm fairly certain that the players responses will differ than a math equation (which I've been told a few times now that math isn't cryptic's strong suit). Instead what I see is players saying X change is no good, this is why.... reason reason reason reason, dev's say. ok, we'll do it anyway. I go... WTF

And then, players say, hey, heres a bug, such and such isn't working right. No response from devs. Players bring up bug again, no reply, or my personal favorite reply was "we have no idea how to fix it". Eventually, people get tired of bringing it up, bug goes unfixed and forgotten.

Honestly, if I had known that STO was going to be like it is, I never would have paid for a lifetime sub, or put any cash into this game at all. It's star trek... ish, and yes that's some what enjoyable, but beyond that... what value is there to this game in its current state? If I didn't have this life time sub, I would have quit playing a long time ago but I'm damn sure going to get what I deem to be my monies worth out of it.

What I really see is that cryptic and PWE are riding on the coat tails of the Star Trek franchise and have little interest in putting quality into their work. Yes, most of the ship models looks good, hell I've played around in 3ds max and have made ship models before. It's not that hard, but anything organic in this game... psh, garbage. Story and immersion... not really there. Is it any wonder Stahl said the average life expectancy of players is something like 32 days?

Once the ooo Star Trek wears off, people see this game for what it is, very unfinished and full of bugs and they quit playing and move on to something else.

I'm not expecting perfection, I just want an honest attempt to make this game something worth while, otherwise its just like TOR, a lousy attempt at cashing in on a dieing franchise. I want cryptic to show me they care about STO. I don't think that's too much to ask of them.

Not sure when you started Playing dude, But Actually the last Poll given was Romulans Or KDF.. Now we have Tau Dewa.. BY PLAYER request. Most Likely the romulan Playable Race is being Created as we speak for future Roll out. ALSO As for Klingon Faction. The Klingon Faction and I know People Don't want to here This, Was NOT created to be a full blown Faction, It was Created as an Advanced Faction to give more of a challenge in PVP to Higher Level Captains. It was Even Advertised as That. As for the Mess Remember This game Was never fully Finished by Perpetual Due to Bankruptcy. Cryptic Bought it and had to Convert the Codes from the Perpetual Engine Into what we have today. Is it an Excuse, No. Is it fact, Yes.

This Game also, Was not designed towards the Niche Player Experts of STO. But towards the Casual Player Base. Sadly the Casual Base Is paying for the game and buying Zen in bulk to put into the Game, the Exchange shows that. Theres at least 211,589 Zen on Exchange for Purchase and thats just in What can be seen for the top 5 lowest prices. Even with Lifetime players tossing there stipends on the market, Two grand worth of Zen on the market from what we can see. From the small Player base considering it stays around that amount, thats not bad for how old the game is.

As for Cryptic and how the Devs are, Frequent Channel : TTS, Hit the Actual bug report forums up. Most devs will Talk to you , especially if your participating on Tribble helping find stuff for them to fix. They also have there Orders. I can also create Spiffy images on Design programs, Even CAD. What I can't Do is Make them Fly all pretty in Space to thousands of players getting hit with countless weapons Fire, lighting and shading values added depending what is hitting it or flying over it. It's Easy to Rant on a forum about how a game is, Yet I see None of the player Base Actually Working for a Game Development Studio. All us Internet Warriors hold regular Jobs. Very Few are actually Designing Games that are playing by thousands hosted by a well known Publisher. I Personally Gave up trying to get into Game Design because the Technology Keeps Advancing and programming is way above me. I am Fairly Certain if any of us had Any skill in these Areas We would be playing the Games that we created and not someone Elses. BUT if you think you Can do the Job Better.. As the Game says.. If you want something done Right, Do it yourself. Cryptic Studios has been hiring new Devs for a while now. Go Apply. If your Worth your forum Post You get to actually be on there and show it. Be a player that Fixes the Game for us instead of being one that says eh, I can do a better job, and not be able to do it.

darimund

firstly, I never said I could do it better. yes, I said I can make a ship model. However, the model artists aren't the ones creating the code to make the models fly.

As to the rest http://www.hard-light.net/. Here's a gaming community that took the source code from a 10 + year old space combat sim, revitalized it, fixed bugs, made it more modern and a butt load of fun. There's everyone from coders to voice actors, to modelers to texture artists that contribute to this ancient game. Hell, the guys that created the Diaspora campaign were hired by Bigpoint to create the models used in BSG Online. The point I'm not making very well about these guys is, they're all doing this in their own time, for no money and a ton of the things they have released are of superb quality. Check out the Diaspora game, it's amazing if you're a Battlestar Galactica fan. If you're not and like flying around in a space ship going PEW PEW, theres a ton of other campaigns that you can play that are equally amazing. When a problem crops up in their code, they do everything in their power to fix it, and they do so in a very reasonable amount of time.

Yes, FS2 isn't a MMO, so of course there are differences in game type, but at the core of STO, its a space combat sim/3rd/1st person shooter.

Point is, if these guys can do it for free and do it very well, I would expect equal quality of work from someone that's being paid to do it, especially from someone that I've given money to.

markhawkman

I've never played a single game ever, that met your criteria for being finished. Sorry, but it's just never happened.

dariusmajere

I know Freespace Very well, I have done minor Modding on it. I know many Open-source Games available that have Wicked good Graphics, You know the Difference between Open-Source and Publisher/Developer Based. Someone Already did the hard work for you and Created the Game, Created the mechanics and the Code. A Developer Already did the hard Work for hard-light. Interplay has been Doing games for years. How long did it take them to create Freespace? Hell, Let's go back to the Days of Descent, Descent 2, and the horrible Descent 3. It's Easy to Mod a Game, I did it on duke 3d, all the doom maps, Wolfenstien maps. Hell I have even done Modding on the New RAGE Engine. It's Easy to Mod, It's not easy to create and install new Technologies. A lot of the issues we have is due to new technologies being introduce into the Game. Another Difference In Open-Source Games is the Entire Community Get Involved. Everyone has access to the Code, Everyone can change edit and submit Code. On a Single Player Game, this is Safe and Easy to do, Especially once the game and company went bye bye and got swallowed up. Cryptic Is still in Business, If they opened there code up to the World it would be Suicide for them. It's easy for a community of hundreds to work on a game, but if you have 20 people dealing with thousands, ontop of having to make it work with EVERYONES systems and everyones different modifications. Freespace had Standard Models to use, there was no specialty, You did not have to worry a bout X player did this Design and is now being attacked by Y player.. Explosions don't appear on y players custom Ship. X players unchanged ship works perfect. Multiplayer Games are an Entirely Different Breed then Single Players games.
Look how many people try to do open-source MMO's, Not many full blown designed ones out there.. Profit has to be maintained and bringing in money is the main goal. Open-source games Do not have to pay for Server load, Technicians on staff, Thats all Free by the community. You want to bring the Hundreds of STO players to work on STO for Free. Pay for STO's Server Farms while increasing Cryptics Net profitability. I am SURE the Devs would not Mind hundreds of players to help as long as it maintained them making profit.

darimund

I don't recall posting any criteria for a "finished" game. I'm asking for craptic to show they care about their work instead of going "DERP I MAKE STAR TREK!" and calling it good.

markhawkman

darimund wrote: »

I don't recall posting any criteria for a "finished" game. I'm asking for craptic to show they care about their work instead of going "DERP I MAKE STAR TREK!" and calling it good.

Your reasons for thinking STO is unfinished sound like criteria to me.... And yeah, listen to Darius.

darimund

dariusmajere wrote: »

I know Freespace Very well, I have done minor Modding on it. I know many Open-source Games available that have Wicked good Graphics, You know the Difference between Open-Source and Publisher/Developer Based. Someone Already did the hard work for you and Created the Game, Created the mechanics and the Code. A Developer Already did the hard Work for hard-light. Interplay has been Doing games for years. How long did it take them to create Freespace? Hell, Let's go back to the Days of Descent, Descent 2, and the horrible Descent 3. It's Easy to Mod a Game, I did it on duke 3d, all the doom maps, Wolfenstien maps. Hell I have even done Modding on the New RAGE Engine. It's Easy to Mod, It's not easy to create and install new Technologies. A lot of the issues we have is due to new technologies being introduce into the Game. Another Difference In Open-Source Games is the Entire Community Get Involved. Everyone has access to the Code, Everyone can change edit and submit Code. On a Single Player Game, this is Safe and Easy to do, Especially once the game and company went bye bye and got swallowed up. Cryptic Is still in Business, If they opened there code up to the World it would be Suicide for them. It's easy for a community of hundreds to work on a game, but if you have 20 people dealing with thousands, ontop of having to make it work with EVERYONES systems and everyones different modifications. Freespace had Standard Models to use, there was no specialty, You did not have to worry a bout X player did this Design and is now being attacked by Y player.. Explosions don't appear on y players custom Ship. X players unchanged ship works perfect. Multiplayer Games are an Entirely Different Breed then Single Players games.
Look how many people try to do open-source MMO's, Not many full blown designed ones out there.. Profit has to be maintained and bringing in money is the main goal. Open-source games Do not have to pay for Server load, Technicians on staff, Thats all Free by the community. You want to bring the Hundreds of STO players to work on STO for Free. Pay for STO's Server Farms while increasing Cryptics Net profitability. I am SURE the Devs would not Mind hundreds of players to help as long as it maintained them making profit.

So basically you're saying because craptic is in business and STO isn't open source, we should be okay with mediocrity? I'm not. I'm whole heartedly against this idea that because there is money involved, we should just be okay with it.

Furthermore, this game uses direct-x technologies. The "compatibility" with peoples systems went out the window years ago when this was introduced. Direct-X is, for all intents and purposes, a middle man between the game and the drivers for your hardware. The game interfaces with direct-x, direct-x interfaces with your sound card/video card, etc etc. Case in point, the problem that some people are having with intel video cards right now, driver problem, nothing in the game causing it. So... try again on that.

It seems like you're missing my point here entirely, so I'll try this again. Craptic has had the code for STO for years now, as you have pointed out. At this point, there's no excuse for them to still be scratching their heads over how it works. And when they release a patch and it introduces a slew of new bugs, why does it take months to never for them to get a fix out? On content, I still can't wrap my brain around why they would release anything that's unfinished, and then follow up with something else unfinished? This trend continues for months, years even... so yes, its deservedly called "half assed". Additionally, I have done bug reports, both in the forum and through their ticketing system.... still waiting for them to be fixed, as have many people. The lucky few that got answers, well grats, I guess cryptic was feeling magnanimous that day.

All in all, I'm very displeased by the lack caring and attention these buffoons have given this game while at the same time, like you said, people are still throwing money into zen to sell. All of that tells me they don't give a damn, they just want our money and could care less if this is freakin Andy Griffith online or Star Trek Online.

dariusmajere

darimund wrote: »

So basically you're saying because craptic is in business and STO isn't open source, we should be okay with mediocrity? I'm not. I'm whole heartedly against this idea that because there is money involved, we should just be okay with it.

Furthermore, this game uses direct-x technologies. The "compatibility" with peoples systems went out the window years ago when this was introduced. Direct-X is, for all intents and purposes, a middle man between the game and the drivers for your hardware. The game interfaces with direct-x, direct-x interfaces with your sound card/video card, etc etc. Case in point, the problem that some people are having with intel video cards right now, driver problem, nothing in the game causing it. So... try again on that.

It seems like you're missing my point here entirely, so I'll try this again. Craptic has had the code for STO for years now, as you have pointed out. At this point, there's no excuse for them to still be scratching their heads over how it works. And when they release a patch and it introduces a slew of new bugs, why does it take months to never for them to get a fix out? On content, I still can't wrap my brain around why they would release anything that's unfinished, and then follow up with something else unfinished? This trend continues for months, years even... so yes, its deservedly called "half assed". Additionally, I have done bug reports, both in the forum and through their ticketing system.... still waiting for them to be fixed, as have many people. The lucky few that got answers, well grats, I guess cryptic was feeling magnanimous that day.

All in all, I'm very displeased by the lack caring and attention these buffoons have given this game while at the same time, like you said, people are still throwing money into zen to sell. All of that tells me they don't give a damn, they just want our money and could care less if this is freakin Andy Griffith online or Star Trek Online.

What it means is people are HAPPY with the game that they continue to put money into it. Yes the game has bugs and if you read the patch notes you see they get worked on weekly.
Content is the lifeblood of a Game. With no content coming out, A game dies because the player base Leaves. You have to Split your time between Content and working on bugs, About 80/20 or even 75/25. Content Taking priority Because that brings the players in. ALL MMO games Do it. World Of ******** is bug filled. Hell in the first couple of years it was Absolutely Horrible coming from a MAssively Rich Developer as Blizzard. LOTRO same Issue, EVE online 18th Expansion Only Now Really the last few Expansions Fixing Bugs.. It's been going since 2003.. It has finally fixed a few of its First bugs. This is the way of the MMO. It is not a single player Game.
As for Direct X. Even With Direct X you need to make sure it works on Multiple Systems. From Windows XP to Windows 8, Just because it is Direct X and not sure if you ever Designed something for it, Does not Mean it works across the board. It helps But it's not Fail proof. This being Seen in Many MMO's who released Content and some systems It boots on and some it does not. Hell Season 7 for STO had that Issue, Some systems could Get in, Some could not. I myself was locked out till a new patch came out. If you could find me a Bug Proof MMO I would LOVE to see it. Hell I would love to take a Crack at it and See how quickly I could figure out Exploits and ways to Crash it.
For 20 years in MMO History with this Game Being the "Worst" in its Time, It makes me semi amused to wonder exactly What have you been Playing? Ultima Online?Shaiya? Guild wars? ********* if you played that horrible Game I shall laugh. Conquer Online? Was not Many Massive Multiple Online Games in the 90's that met the Classification of Massive Multiplayer. Alot of Train Wrecks in the past and Very Few MMO's Prior to the Success of WOW.

bluedarky

Cryptic didn't get any code from Perpetual Entertainment IIRC. In fact all as they had was some art and mock up code, Cryptic had to make STO from scratch in the Cryptic Engine.

twg042370

Not sure how many mmo's you have been in, but for going on its 3rd year for a game that got dropped on there lap and being converted onto there engine slowly, they are not doing bad.

Now, the poor lad is having a good vent. No need to try and be sensible at him. Let him have a nap and he should be good to go.

darimund

I never said I expected perfection out of craptic, in fact I distinctly recall saying I'm not expecting perfection. Bugs are a fact of life, I get that, but the sheer volume and the fact that they don't get fixed begs the question, why? The only answer I can come up with is they don't care. I challenge craptic to prove me wrong on that.

I really don't think people are that happy with the game in general. People play it because its star trek. PWE is playing psychological games with the players to get them to spend stupid amounts of money to get the best gear or to feed their star base projects etc etc. Hey, if that's all it was, good on PWE for being able to rip folks off for intangible goods. That's every capitalists dream. However, that isn't all there is to what's going on around here.

It's been stated many times on these forums that the number of people that are unsatisfied with PWE and craptic far outnumber the number of people that are willing to defend them. I'm not trying to turn this into a fan boi vs hater debate, my point is craptic dangles out new shinnies every couple of months to divert your attention from the previous heap of trash that came our way previously. You get your new shinnies and then its... heyyyyy, something's wrong here... and then the next batch of new shinnies is already on the way. You bought into that, hey well, i'm not here to change your mind. That's your deal.

Anyway, I do retract what I said about the 20 years of MMO's, apparently math isn't my strong suit either, my first MMO was EverQuest and I started playing that roughly a month after it was released so ya since April of 99. I'm not going to get in a list of all of the games I've played, I don't want to get into a X game vs STO debate. Don't care how ****ty/great wow was, etc. What I will say is that at the very least, the companies behind the MMO's that I played at least pretended like they gave a rats TRIBBLE about their product. And while not every game I played since it was launched, I could reasonably say that there was far more quality in their work, not to mention the DEVS LISTENED TO THE PLAYERS.

If there's any 1 complaint I see on this forum more than anything is a lack of response to the players. I don't mean overlord Stahl picking questions out of a pile that he wants to answer once a month. I mean actual interaction from the devs at the very least saying they're working to fix a problem, or hey, I like that idea, ima see if we can get it in the game or something close to it. Yes, I see the dev tracker, but most of that is bran doing PR or just general chit chat. While some of that is cool and all, ultimately, it does leave some players disheartened that their pleas go unanswered. It all takes me back to "they don't care".

markhawkman

you want to see someone defend Cryptic and their bug fixing efforts? Ok.

Go to Carraya and tell me whether or not you see this: http://marhawkman.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d5jks3h

That bug never made it to the live server because I reported it during the tribble testing and it got fixed. That was an easy bug though, all they had to do was edit the backdrop of the map.

So yes, there you have proof that cryptic really does at least try to fix bugs.

dariusmajere

darimund wrote: »

I never said I expected perfection out of craptic, in fact I distinctly recall saying I'm not expecting perfection. Bugs are a fact of life, I get that, but the sheer volume and the fact that they don't get fixed begs the question, why? The only answer I can come up with is they don't care. I challenge craptic to prove me wrong on that.

I really don't think people are that happy with the game in general. People play it because its star trek. PWE is playing psychological games with the players to get them to spend stupid amounts of money to get the best gear or to feed their star base projects etc etc. Hey, if that's all it was, good on PWE for being able to rip folks off for intangible goods. That's every capitalists dream. However, that isn't all there is to what's going on around here.

It's been stated many times on these forums that the number of people that are unsatisfied with PWE and craptic far outnumber the number of people that are willing to defend them. I'm not trying to turn this into a fan boi vs hater debate, my point is craptic dangles out new shinnies every couple of months to divert your attention from the previous heap of trash that came our way previously. You get your new shinnies and then its... heyyyyy, something's wrong here... and then the next batch of new shinnies is already on the way. You bought into that, hey well, i'm not here to change your mind. That's your deal.

Anyway, I do retract what I said about the 20 years of MMO's, apparently math isn't my strong suit either, my first MMO was EverQuest and I started playing that roughly a month after it was released so ya since April of 99. I'm not going to get in a list of all of the games I've played, I don't want to get into a X game vs STO debate. Don't care how ****ty/great wow was, etc. What I will say is that at the very least, the companies behind the MMO's that I played at least pretended like they gave a rats TRIBBLE about their product. And while not every game I played since it was launched, I could reasonably say that there was far more quality in their work, not to mention the DEVS LISTENED TO THE PLAYERS.

If there's any 1 complaint I see on this forum more than anything is a lack of response to the players. I don't mean overlord Stahl picking questions out of a pile that he wants to answer once a month. I mean actual interaction from the devs at the very least saying they're working to fix a problem, or hey, I like that idea, ima see if we can get it in the game or something close to it. Yes, I see the dev tracker, but most of that is bran doing PR or just general chit chat. While some of that is cool and all, ultimately, it does leave some players disheartened that their pleas go unanswered. It all takes me back to "they don't care".

I can honestly Say I see and Talk to Devs alot. They frequent the Test Server Channel not the normal Ones. There may not be alot on the forums supporting Cryptic, But there also are NOT ALOT of the forums HAting on Cryptic, yes theres more hate then Praise. But You can NAME everyone of us on the forums EASILY. We are that few compared to the actual population and thats how it typically Is. But When the bulk of the players complained about DILithium in the Rep system, Look how quick it got added. Was next Patch pretty much. When the Mass of the Players Speak they Move. When the Minority of us Gripe, they do not. Majority Talks, Minority Walks is how it Always is in a MMO. Bulk complaints Are dealt with Over the small ones. If the Glitch is considered Major, It gets Delt with. If its not a Game Breaking issue its put on the large Minor issue pile. Join The Tribble Server if you want to talk to Devs. Not just during "Test Events" but Normally on it. Get involved on the Tribble Forum. The Devs only Get involved in Major Issues and Major issues Take priority over Minor Ones. Honestly. I do Not see A Massive amount of major Game breaking Bugs that would TRIBBLE me off and I am autistic I am Very Detail orientated. Minor Ones yes, Gods thre are tons. I report them as needed, But unless they are Game Breaking the Devs have better things to do like work on The next Expansion. No matter what people will find fault in the games, No one will ever be happy. For every One Issue they fix Ten more will TRIBBLE and moan about it. Tribble Forums Will Easily Point that out.
Klingon Players will never be enough, they could Out of no where Hot Drop a Complete level package for level 1-21 and the KDF would not be happy they would just switch to something Else to TRIBBLE and Moan About. They could fix all your patches in an emergency patch today, You yourself would say thanks and be on in an hour with a whole list of new issues. That is the MMO Cycle. If you check my Raptr or Xfire Page under shadowmajere, you will see how many Games for the most part when I have it running I have torn threw. That is just when I remember to have it running. I am an Avid member of MMOrpg.com I get in every Beta test out there and help bug Chase on Multiple Games. Deeming Star Trek The Worst, shows me you have not been around the block. Going by others Responses on the thread. Not many people Arguing for your side. If you want to See and Be involved with Devs, Get on Tribble. Does everything get posted there, No. They keep Secrets to suprise us. Will Alot of ships Get fancy Bridges, No. Not a lot of people go onto there bridges so its not a money maker for them to design it. Ship skins and Bridges made no money which is why some got pulled from the Zen Store. As the Famous Line is " Money Talks, BS walks" Cryptic is a FOR-Profit Company. Content is based upon Players Demands in the Majority and where the profit will be made. If only a Small Minority Complain, then you are NOT the top priority until you gather the villagers in mass. If the game has say 50,000 players ( doubt it) and only 20-100 are on the forums complaining, that means a massive majority are not showing they have issues.

darimund

markhawkman wrote: »

you want to see someone defend Cryptic and their bug fixing efforts? Ok.

Go to Carraya and tell me whether or not you see this: http://marhawkman.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d5jks3h

That bug never made it to the live server because I reported it during the tribble testing and it got fixed. That was an easy bug though, all they had to do was edit the backdrop of the map.

So yes, there you have proof that cryptic really does at least try to fix bugs.

I'm glad that one got fixed. However, their efforts hardly seem adequate. Here we are almost a month now after s7 launched, the thread on borg one shotting folks in estf continues... how about the exploit in the winter event? Id almost bet money that one doesn't get fixed because it wont be around after a month. How about the omega engine not reducing the cool down on transwarp? the list can get pretty long if we're gonna say what they fixed vs what they haven't. I admitted as much that they do fix some bugs, but the vast majority of them, they don't fix, and they barely comment on them one way or another.

dariusmajere

darimund wrote: »

I'm glad that one got fixed. However, their efforts hardly seem adequate. Here we are almost a month now after s7 launched, the thread on borg one shotting folks in estf continues... how about the exploit in the winter event? Id almost bet money that one doesn't get fixed because it wont be around after a month. How about the omega engine not reducing the cool down on transwarp? the list can get pretty long if we're gonna say what they fixed vs what they haven't. I admitted as much that they do fix some bugs, but the vast majority of them, they don't fix, and they barely comment on them one way or another.

Well Sir, the DEV's Already had Responded multiple Times to the BORG thread. The Winter Racing Exploit is getting Fixed Thursday's patch If you follow the Star Trek blasts on Twitter (another way Devs release information) Brandon Felczer ‏@PWE_BranFlakes
@ShadowMajere that shortcut won't exist after the next patch
Actually there is some nice stuff already post to Tribble due to player Requests. I will be Able to get my Fed chars the Batleth and some other changes as well. Oh and if you check the notes, you will *GASP* See DEVS! Talking to the players! Like OMG!

sean2448

I agree they tend to rush stiuff all the time ship are the biggest thing
I have having fleet quantum torpeadoes can't see half the time

darimund

dariusmajere wrote: »

I can honestly Say I see and Talk to Devs alot. They frequent the Test Server Channel not the normal Ones. There may not be alot on the forums supporting Cryptic, But there also are NOT ALOT of the forums HAting on Cryptic, yes theres more hate then Praise. But You can NAME everyone of us on the forums EASILY. We are that few compared to the actual population and thats how it typically Is. But When the bulk of the players complained about DILithium in the Rep system, Look how quick it got added. Was next Patch pretty much. When the Mass of the Players Speak they Move. When the Minority of us Gripe, they do not. Majority Talks, Minority Walks is how it Always is in a MMO. Bulk complaints Are dealt with Over the small ones. If the Glitch is considered Major, It gets Delt with. If its not a Game Breaking issue its put on the large Minor issue pile. Join The Tribble Server if you want to talk to Devs. Not just during "Test Events" but Normally on it. Get involved on the Tribble Forum. The Devs only Get involved in Major Issues and Major issues Take priority over Minor Ones. Honestly. I do Not see A Massive amount of major Game breaking Bugs that would TRIBBLE me off and I am autistic I am Very Detail orientated. Minor Ones yes, Gods thre are tons. I report them as needed, But unless they are Game Breaking the Devs have better things to do like work on The next Expansion. No matter what people will find fault in the games, No one will ever be happy. For every One Issue they fix Ten more will TRIBBLE and moan about it. Tribble Forums Will Easily Point that out.
Klingon Players will never be enough, they could Out of no where Hot Drop a Complete level package for level 1-21 and the KDF would not be happy they would just switch to something Else to TRIBBLE and Moan About. They could fix all your patches in an emergency patch today, You yourself would say thanks and be on in an hour with a whole list of new issues. That is the MMO Cycle. If you check my Raptr or Xfire Page under shadowmajere, you will see how many Games for the most part when I have it running I have torn threw. That is just when I remember to have it running. I am an Avid member of MMOrpg.com I get in every Beta test out there and help bug Chase on Multiple Games. Deeming Star Trek The Worst, shows me you have not been around the block. Going by others Responses on the thread. Not many people Arguing for your side. If you want to See and Be involved with Devs, Get on Tribble. Does everything get posted there, No. They keep Secrets to suprise us. Will Alot of ships Get fancy Bridges, No. Not a lot of people go onto there bridges so its not a money maker for them to design it. Ship skins and Bridges made no money which is why some got pulled from the Zen Store. As the Famous Line is " Money Talks, BS walks" Cryptic is a FOR-Profit Company. Content is based upon Players Demands in the Majority and where the profit will be made. If only a Small Minority Complain, then you are NOT the top priority until you gather the villagers in mass. If the game has say 50,000 players ( doubt it) and only 20-100 are on the forums complaining, that means a massive majority are not showing they have issues.

I'm sorry but you're wrong on multiple points here. The mass majority of the players don't bother with the forums because either A) they're lazy and will rely on others to post up problems they're having, just don't care, C) believes that cryptic is aware of the issue and it'll just be magically fixed for them one day (which is kinda point A) or yes D) they're not having the problem. But on that one, I will say there can be a bajillion different reasons for that being they don't play that same content or they don't have that same equipment or w/e. Assuming that there's no problem because it doesn't get mentioned just doesn't cut it.

I'm not going to give overlord Stahl a pat on the head because he got dilithium rewards put back in the game. He screwed up, royally and the players lit him up for it. He deserved every bit of flak he got for that. That initial move on his part showed his true colors and the underlying thought behind everything in this game, make more money. I doubt too, it was just the players pissing and moaning over it, I will bet money it was the canceled subs that got his attention. You're right on one thing, though "Money talks". I've said it before and I'll say it again, until craptic and PWE change their attitudes about this game, my wallet will remain closed. It closed long before s7 launched and I'm not about to forgive and forget for this one act.

Additionally, don't assume anything about me personally. I'm not going to divulge my personal history to you or anyone else here in detail but I have played many MMO's in my time and I'm not saying this to try to tout myself as an net nerd expert, but I will say from my experiences, this MMO is severely mismanaged to be a quality game.

The devs don't need to hide on tribble to communicate with us. There's a whole heaping mess of forum here for them to talk to us, especially this one being the feedback forum. I'm not unreasonable, I don't expect a response to every single question or comment that comes up, but damn... show some love to the people that keep you in business.

You know, I think people here would appreciate devs taking the time to sweep through the game and go bug stomping before releasing more content. They don't have to fix them all, but a little effort can go a long way towards making people feel better about this game. The ones that foolishly throw their money into the dil exchange will still be there, but ya know... I have this funny feeling, that even more would come around to giving a lil extra here and there if they thought it was worth it.

dariusmajere

darimund wrote: »

I'm sorry but you're wrong on multiple points here. The mass majority of the players don't bother with the forums because either A) they're lazy and will rely on others to post up problems they're having, just don't care, C) believes that cryptic is aware of the issue and it'll just be magically fixed for them one day (which is kinda point A) or yes D) they're not having the problem. But on that one, I will say there can be a bajillion different reasons for that being they don't play that same content or they don't have that same equipment or w/e. Assuming that there's no problem because it doesn't get mentioned just doesn't cut it.

I'm not going to give overlord Stahl a pat on the head because he got dilithium rewards put back in the game. He screwed up, royally and the players lit him up for it. He deserved every bit of flak he got for that. That initial move on his part showed his true colors and the underlying thought behind everything in this game, make more money. I doubt too, it was just the players pissing and moaning over it, I will bet money it was the canceled subs that got his attention. You're right on one thing, though "Money talks". I've said it before and I'll say it again, until craptic and PWE change their attitudes about this game, my wallet will remain closed. It closed long before s7 launched and I'm not about to forgive and forget for this one act.

Additionally, don't assume anything about me personally. I'm not going to divulge my personal history to you or anyone else here in detail but I have played many MMO's in my time and I'm not saying this to try to tout myself as an net nerd expert, but I will say from my experiences, this MMO is severely mismanaged to be a quality game.

The devs don't need to hide on tribble to communicate with us. There's a whole heaping mess of forum here for them to talk to us, especially this one being the feedback forum. I'm not unreasonable, I don't expect a response to every single question or comment that comes up, but damn... show some love to the people that keep you in business.

You know, I think people here would appreciate devs taking the time to sweep through the game and go bug stomping before releasing more content. They don't have to fix them all, but a little effort can go a long way towards making people feel better about this game. The ones that foolishly throw their money into the dil exchange will still be there, but ya know... I have this funny feeling, that even more would come around to giving a lil extra here and there if they thought it was worth it.

See the cool thing about this game. Even if you Zip your Wallet, Your still grinding Dilithium and Buying ZEN off the Exchange. You STILL Support the Game it's player Purchased. Even if you Sell your Zen Stipend. You still support the Game. Alot of people here have Shown the DEV's Respond. I have have Responses, another gentleman Above have Responses. You attract more flies with Honey. Posting Bug reports on General Feed back is not hitting a Dev's Attention unless its a major issue. Posting it in the correect Areas Do. Again if it is a Major Issue. The Devs hide on Tribble Because Thats where the FIXES occur. If you want to be part of the solution Get on there. Otherwise your either Fine with the problems, Or part of the problem of why nothing Gets Fixed. You Rather Rant instead of Getting Involved. The players on the Tribble Server Get LISTENED TO. They have SHOWN care for the game. Others who are involved have there problems Delt with. Hell Get involved on Twitter, they are Decently Active on it and So is our Wonderful Community Manager Branflakes. But Again, Game breaking issues Get delt with First. Minor Ones or Cosmetic Ones are non essential. Hell We all Get stuck in walls or Deal with the Drunken Transporter Officer on Qo'nos. Hell Most of us Griped when the Officer was going to get fixed just because it's so damn amusing!

weylandjuarez

markhawkman wrote: »

you want to see someone defend Cryptic and their bug fixing efforts? Ok.

Go to Carraya and tell me whether or not you see this: http://marhawkman.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d5jks3h

That bug never made it to the live server because I reported it during the tribble testing and it got fixed. That was an easy bug though, all they had to do was edit the backdrop of the map.

So yes, there you have proof that cryptic really does at least try to fix bugs.

I think the issue is that the devs remaining in 'team STO' are predominantly on content and maintenance duties - i.e. artists and scripters.

They have a bunch of tools that were created during the development of CoX, CO, STO and now NW, most likely a small amount of (part time) coding support and... that's it.

Borticus isn't a programmer but he's actively involved in balancing systems and introducing new items and powers which makes me think a lot of this stuff is script/database-driven - hell, that could be the entire 'hook' behind Cryptic's ability to 'rapidly turnaround new MMOs' (I don't have the original marketing fluff but supposedly that's their 'thing').

That's great and all when it works, but if something breaks and you have no clue why it broke (and all you're doing is writing/editing scripts) then really, you need someone that knows the code to look into it.

And I'm not sure STO is important enough as a product any more to have full-time coders on the team - not when Neverwinter is fast becoming a real albatross for Cryptic.

Actually, speaking of Neverwinter, how long has it been in development now? It feels like they've actually been working on it for way longer than STO was before it launched - am I just imagining that?

dariusmajere

Slight info, tho partially out of date.
http://www.stowiki.org/Cryptic_Studios

Also it's awards are way out of Date, Its scooped a Good amount more since this was last updated.

wraithshadow13

Personally i can see this thread being a little too full of angry people at the moment. As it stands the game IS playable, but cryptic DOES have a bad habit of pushing out content before it really should be as well as forgetting it shortly after. There are a lot of places where it really shows through and it's broken promises like these that have probably led to Cryptic being so silent about what's going on now.

why it's happening, i don't know, but it would be nice if the forums could get a little direct feedback from the team when issues like this pop up. A great case in point is that a dev mentioned on the forums that the [Borg] proc never really worked as intended, and as far as i know hasn't returned to the thread to discuss it or what will be done about it since. Frankly the silence(in general) does nothing but hurt Cryptic as a whole. I honestly wouldn't mind them pushing out content like they do as long as they went back to it to make it better, either a big patch here and there or multiple small patches on a regular basis.

weylandjuarez

wraithshadow13 wrote: »

A great case in point is that a dev mentioned on the forums that the [Borg] proc never really worked as intended, and as far as i know hasn't returned to the thread to discuss it or what will be done about it since.

Well that's because the response was 'sooo - we traded in lots of Proto Salvage worth a f**kton of Dilithium for weapons which you knew all are along were broken? Are they going to get fixed? Are we going to get compensated?'

And obviously the answer to both those questions was 'no - grind or buy Dilithium for new ones' (once you've unlocked them in the rep store) - Borticus didn't post that of course because of the s**tstorm it would've caused in that thread.

His intentions were good - he wanted people to know that there were more viable alternatives coming, but when people have invested countless hours of play-time into acquiring this stuff, telling them it's broken, it's always been broken and we're not gonna do anything about it isn't exactly going to endear you to them.

Honestly, he'd had been better off saying nothing.

darimund

wraithshadow13 wrote: »

Personally i can see this thread being a little too full of angry people at the moment. As it stands the game IS playable, but cryptic DOES have a bad habit of pushing out content before it really should be as well as forgetting it shortly after. There are a lot of places where it really shows through and it's broken promises like these that have probably led to Cryptic being so silent about what's going on now.

why it's happening, i don't know, but it would be nice if the forums could get a little direct feedback from the team when issues like this pop up. A great case in point is that a dev mentioned on the forums that the [Borg] proc never really worked as intended, and as far as i know hasn't returned to the thread to discuss it or what will be done about it since. Frankly the silence(in general) does nothing but hurt Cryptic as a whole. I honestly wouldn't mind them pushing out content like they do as long as they went back to it to make it better, either a big patch here and there or multiple small patches on a regular basis.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about here. Though I will say craptics response to the [Borg] proc was to just stop providing those weapons and give a passive random proc to weapons through omega rep, but that kinda proves my point. They didn't have a freakin clue how to go about fixing the initial problem so they just pushed it aside and acted like they were doing us a huge favor. Yes it can be argued that its a good thing yadda yadda, but in all, they half assed the initial development of the STF weapons, didn't have a clue how to go back and correct their mistake so they swept it under the rug.

Am I saying everything in this game is broken? No, absolutely not. Like Wraithshadow here pointed out the game IS playable. Not arguing that. But if you could equate this game to a car, itd be running with the oil light and the check engine light on constantly. Someone needs to take this old hoopty to the mechanic and get it fixed, get the tires rotated while they're at it.

No where in the help and support for this game does it say I have to go play on tribble for bugs to be fixed or for me to get a twitter account. That's just unreasonable to expect anyone to do that for bug reports and the like. Like I've said, I've posted in the bug report thread, I've submitted tickets, which is exactly what the devs said to do to report problems. They haven't been fixed, and i'm not holding my breath for a fix anytime soon either.

dariusmajere

weylandjuarez wrote: »

Well that's because the response was 'sooo - we traded in lots of Proto Salvage worth a f**kton of Dilithium for weapons which you knew all are along were broken? Are they going to get fixed? Are we going to get compensated?'

And obviously the answer to both those questions was 'no - grind or buy Dilithium for new ones' (once you've unlocked them in the rep store) - Borticus didn't post that of course because of the s**tstorm it would've caused in that thread.

His intentions were good - he wanted people to know that there were more viable alternatives coming, but when people have invested countless hours of play-time into acquiring this stuff, telling them it's broken, it's always been broken and we're not gonna do anything about it isn't exactly going to endear you to them.

Honestly, he'd had been better off saying nothing.

As I tossed in another Thread.. Borticus is like House (hugh laurie) or Dr Perry Cox (John C. McGinley) in Scrubs lol. He says what he wants does not care if he causes Tears :P

dariusmajere

darimund wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about here. Though I will say craptics response to the [Borg] proc was to just stop providing those weapons and give a passive random proc to weapons through omega rep, but that kinda proves my point. They didn't have a freakin clue how to go about fixing the initial problem so they just pushed it aside and acted like they were doing us a huge favor. Yes it can be argued that its a good thing yadda yadda, but in all, they half assed the initial development of the STF weapons, didn't have a clue how to go back and correct their mistake so they swept it under the rug.

Am I saying everything in this game is broken? No, absolutely not. Like Wraithshadow here pointed out the game IS playable. Not arguing that. But if you could equate this game to a car, itd be running with the oil light and the check engine light on constantly. Someone needs to take this old hoopty to the mechanic and get it fixed, get the tires rotated while they're at it.

No where in the help and support for this game does it say I have to go play on tribble for bugs to be fixed or for me to get a twitter account. That's just unreasonable to expect anyone to do that for bug reports and the like. Like I've said, I've posted in the bug report thread, I've submitted tickets, which is exactly what the devs said to do to report problems. They haven't been fixed, and i'm not holding my breath for a fix anytime soon either.

I am not saying you have to, but I am saying there are ways to more stand out then others. If you do the same that others do you just blend in. If you go out of the way and get involved further, You are noticed and get respected and stand out more.

wraithshadow13

I liek Borticus, i've been a fan of stoked and was sad to see him leave, and as far as i'm concerned he's a good addition to the team. What bothered me though was tossing a borm into an open crowd only to walk away and not deal with the aftermath. I don't demand answers simply because i'm sure he'd get in trouble one way or another as well as i'm glad he did what he did in the first place by letting people know, i would just like feed back from the team. Any thing really to either explain what was being done or even just "hey, we're working on making this right". Even if they just added the ability to trade these things in to the fleet store for either a refund or significant cost reduction for a new weapon.

If you're going to be putting anything in game that requires either time, money, resources, or any combination of the three, it would be nice to either go back and make it work as intended, or to take action to make it right by the people who earned something that didn't really even work,which as stated through out this thread, was a lot.

weylandjuarez

dariusmajere wrote: »

As I tossed in another Thread.. Borticus is like House (hugh laurie) or Dr Perry Cox (John C. McGinley) in Scrubs lol. He says what he wants does not care if he causes Tears :P

You're giving him too much credit I'm afraid.

He likes (or at least liked) the game, I'm guessing he likes his job - he has no clue how to handle the players (in fact, nobody at Cryptic does, not even Stahl).

He tries to justify the changes Cryptic makes but it's impossible for him to see things from a customer's point of view any more.

It doesn't help that there's this stigma attached to forum posters in as much that we 'don't represent the playerbase' - or that we only represent a tiny proportion of it - that may be true, but we're their harshest critics when they get something wrong and their staunchest defenders when they get something right - where STO wants to be is somewhere between those two poles.