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Why The Vesta Is Uber Overpowered
orondis
Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
Here are the reasons nicely laid out:-
1. Science shields - A decent science ship captin can tank really quite effectively with his small hull thanks to his huge shields (and two piece borg set if he feels so inclined).
2. Hangers - In and of itself hangers are fine, it's the pets. Peregrines etc add a small amount of extra DPS, so while annoying in PvP they aren't game breaking. Danubes on the otherhand offer the Vesta very useful crowd control tools. This isn't just a problem with the Vesta, it's also a problem with the Armitage, which is why I refuse to use them on mine.
3. Can equip dual heavy cannons - This is probably the biggest problem with the ship. It's got enough going for it that it's already an OP sci ship, the addition of dual heavy cannons however pushes it into super overpowered status. It's not like the Galaxy-x which has a poor turnrate, the vesta can turn quite quickly AND has awesome CC tools.
4. Science powers - You've given this ship nigh escort level of damage, the ability to use danubes as well as the ability to chain Viral Matrix 1&3. I can't be the only one who sees the problem with this.
Or the player could use a shield strip build, a power drain build or scramble build. Now for a normal science ship none of these would be a serious problem, but when you've got the games wizard casting spells AND swinging the games two handed mighty broadsword at the same time you've got problems.
5. Sensor Analysis - 3 dual heavy cannons and 3 turrets is already pretty damaging by itself. With sensor analysis though it'd boost that damage beyond that of an escorts.
I'm not even bringing the console powers into this one, since it's plenty overpowered without them.
So to put it simply...
Uber CC (danubes and VM) + Dual heavy cannons + sensor analysis damage buff + science tanking + turnrate = Overpowered ship that makes the bug ship look reasonable.
A 1v1 between a vesta and an escort will go something like this.
*Ships get within 10km of one another and both start firing dual heavy cannons.
*Vesta uses FBP1 adding extra damage to his attack.
*Escort has to stop shooting and decides to evade using attack pattern omega 3.
*Vesta casts VM3 on the escort.
*Vesta gets within 1km and launches Danubes.
*Escort captain begins to panic as his shields are getting pummled by increasingly more powerful dual heavy cannons and he can't move an inch.
*Finally the danube tractors turn off or the captain uses another attack pattern omega and the escort is free.
*Escort gets hit by VM1
*Escort shields are breached and the ship is quickly destroyed.
*Vesta wins without even breaking a sweat.
1. Science shields - A decent science ship captin can tank really quite effectively with his small hull thanks to his huge shields (and two piece borg set if he feels so inclined).
2. Hangers - In and of itself hangers are fine, it's the pets. Peregrines etc add a small amount of extra DPS, so while annoying in PvP they aren't game breaking. Danubes on the otherhand offer the Vesta very useful crowd control tools. This isn't just a problem with the Vesta, it's also a problem with the Armitage, which is why I refuse to use them on mine.
3. Can equip dual heavy cannons - This is probably the biggest problem with the ship. It's got enough going for it that it's already an OP sci ship, the addition of dual heavy cannons however pushes it into super overpowered status. It's not like the Galaxy-x which has a poor turnrate, the vesta can turn quite quickly AND has awesome CC tools.
4. Science powers - You've given this ship nigh escort level of damage, the ability to use danubes as well as the ability to chain Viral Matrix 1&3. I can't be the only one who sees the problem with this.
Or the player could use a shield strip build, a power drain build or scramble build. Now for a normal science ship none of these would be a serious problem, but when you've got the games wizard casting spells AND swinging the games two handed mighty broadsword at the same time you've got problems.
5. Sensor Analysis - 3 dual heavy cannons and 3 turrets is already pretty damaging by itself. With sensor analysis though it'd boost that damage beyond that of an escorts.
I'm not even bringing the console powers into this one, since it's plenty overpowered without them.
So to put it simply...
Uber CC (danubes and VM) + Dual heavy cannons + sensor analysis damage buff + science tanking + turnrate = Overpowered ship that makes the bug ship look reasonable.
A 1v1 between a vesta and an escort will go something like this.
*Ships get within 10km of one another and both start firing dual heavy cannons.
*Vesta uses FBP1 adding extra damage to his attack.
*Escort has to stop shooting and decides to evade using attack pattern omega 3.
*Vesta casts VM3 on the escort.
*Vesta gets within 1km and launches Danubes.
*Escort captain begins to panic as his shields are getting pummled by increasingly more powerful dual heavy cannons and he can't move an inch.
*Finally the danube tractors turn off or the captain uses another attack pattern omega and the escort is free.
*Escort gets hit by VM1
*Escort shields are breached and the ship is quickly destroyed.
*Vesta wins without even breaking a sweat.
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Post edited by orondis on
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1) Sacrifices 3 consoles to get that shield. Prone to kinetic damage from Gravwell, TBR, transphasics. So no. You lose so much for those consoles and a cool down of 3 minutes if I am not mistaken for that shield. Also, it can be SN doff'd off, as well as Sub nuked.
2) They're getting a nerf. Drastically reducing tractor beam use on the runabouts.
3) 12 turn rate. LoL Good luck with that, 3 consoles for the shield, and you want to put RCS on there too?
4) Again danubes are being nerf'd. Inertial damps/eng team/coordination leads to Viral being a minor setback just like any other ability put on you.
5) Ok I'll let you have this one, but this is basically the most beneficial part to the purchase. All of the above are things that can be easily considered, and deem it not OP.
If you compare this to the Wells, this ship is a joke. That miracle worker go back in time console saves a kill in most circumstances. Nothing compares to this.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you start firing DHC's once you're within 10 km you're doing it wrong. Also, you don't need to use APO3 to evade FBP or a ship with just 3 DHC's and no attack patterns.
@DevolvedOne
1. I am unsure what you mean. Is this about the shield mod? Well sci ships tend to have good shields yes. And the vesta has a bit less shields and hp than the fleet recon I think.
2. Hangars are always nice. OP pets... well they are nerfing the danube, lets see how that turns out.
3. DHC's do sound nice yes. How much they help we will see. You still only have 3/3 weapon slots and ypu can't use your target subsystem with it. Also you might not want to bring that many tac officers so maybe you are stuck with one CRF1. While the DHC's sure are nice and unique I am unsure if they really are that big of a problem. We will see I guess.
4. It has some nice CC potential, as do all sci ships. Let's wait and see how the danube change turn out.
5. No. You are still missing one DHC. Also you have max 4 tac consoles while there are escorts with 5. Also you don't have a tac com and if you choose tac for your lt com you are missing some sci or eng powers. While it is a versatile ship you still can't have everything at once.
As for the sensor analysis. You have to shoot for 1 min I think without switching target to get the full bonus. If you are not able to kill the enemy within 1 min you might want to switch targets anyway. Also it means you can't switch targets to heal or use your science powers on other ships.
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If you use the aux cannons your turrets are 100% garbage unless you are keeping weapon power high and wasting all that sci damage for 3 turrets, is this the plan? I don't think so. You can use normal weapons with high weapon power and low aux but we kinda know how that works now with science ships with dual beams and turrets, DHCs aren't that much better.
Personally I'd probably look at 3 aux DHCs, 2 tri-cobalt mines and maybe the cutting beam when S7 comes out, that could be a nasty burst damage build, but terrible sustained.
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extreamly flexible station setup
runabouts
escort spike ability
pick 1 and we can pretend its not op still.
anyone who uses up 3 console slots for that set stuff is a pve hero doing it wrong. and if you can get DHCs to work on a ship with a 12 base turn and with all the ways this ship can control movement, you fail, so hard.
Then again, I'm thinking of a sci/sci. If a tac was in it, it would be higher, but still not escort high. I think the difference between CRF3 + APO1 + APD1 + 4 DHC's vs. CRF2 + APD1 + 3 DHC's (or APO1 + CRF1 + APD1 + 3 DHC's) can't be overlooked. Any way you slice it, the escort is going to have substantially more spike potential.
However, it will still be a rival for best ship in the game, mainly because of its versatility.
@DevolvedOne
Talk about overkill.
I can now hear the cries: Don't nerf my PvE-daily ship! :P
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The issue is that the sensor analysis makes up for the loss of the extra front cannon. Add to that the better average cannon dps due to them draining aux not weapons and it's getting a lot tighter on the escorts, not to mention you can throw the deflector in there for extra punch on the alpha. It probably is going to be behind, but even without the deflector i think it works out at around a 33% boost compared to the fleet defiant/bug. Compared to around a +120% advantage with current best sci ships, thats not a good situation. Not to mention a vesta using a dbb BO packs about 5% moe punch than the fleet defiant on it.
It's not so much the vesta can hit as hard as an escort, as it can get very close whilst having a ton of capabilities an escort simply dosen't have.
it will hit as hard as every escort build that includes a torp or DBB, were the BO misses or the torp hit shields harmlessly. more often then not, this is what happens to non 4 DHC escorts.
captain tac powers with just CRF 1 will deal more damage, and more useful damage, then an 8 beam array cruiser. maybe even a 4 single cannon cruiser. its the usefulness of spike thats the problem. before this ship, sci ships could just befuddle, not deal much in the way of damage. the vesta will add significantly to the spike available for focus fireing, dealing the right damage at the right time, to vastly increase kill chance.
a tac captain in the vesta with a LTC tac or TLC eng with a 2 AtB build will have global cannon ability up time, just like an escort. the only thing it could be missing is any APO, the weakest of all damage buffing tac abilities. SNB and sensor scan turning off someones resistance will be basically as effective at dealing damage as staked tac powers as well. thats why sci/escorts can be so dangerous.
there is no getting around it, its a monstrously op mary sue ship that makes a significant number of other ships in the game worthless by comparison, and not just other sci ships.
Don't forget the Phaser Lance console, which it can slot to give it the equivalent of a BO w/ sensor analysis. Even if its not available as often as a normal DBB+BO, with you science powers and great shields you'll be able to hang is a fight for quite awhile.
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Next one's late Dec/early Jan or so - and - it's a battlecruiser. Not a KDF battlecruiser, mind you...
Can equip cannons
One extra forward weapon slot
2 hangars
pets with tricobalt weapons
Phase cloak that makes you untargerable but still able to fire weapons
6,500 more hull
.15 less shields
Has the same high dps boff setup available on the vesta
1 less console some where
no sub system targeting
no scramble sensors
Free for 600 day vets.
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This ship still won't be able to keep 17+ turn rate escorts in their line of fire, not with a turn rate of 12. The ship will never have the capability to exceed an escort's DPS, even with sensor scan. And for the players claiming that sensor scan gives a flat +33% bonus to all damage, they need to rethink those claims. In order to fully stack to +33%, a player needs to keep a target lock on the enemy for at least a minute. Anyone who calls themselves a PvPer knows that breaking a science vessel's sensor scan ability is incredibly easy. Every time I have a prolonged fight with an escort in PvP, they will use evasives or APO in order to get 10.1Km just to reset the sensor scan stack. Or the escort will just use subspace jump, which automatically breaks any target locks. When I fly an escort, I do the exact same thing when fighting a science vessel shield tanking.
Also, if the vesta uses all dual heavy cannons, it becomes effectively impossible for the ship to use innate subsystem targeting, removing a very potent science vessel ability. The ship will have potential, I will give it that. However, it will have to rely on well placed science abilities and skill, or the pilot will be out-tanked by cruisers or melted by 5 tac console escorts. Even if a pilot goes with the 4 tac slots, it will mean they only have 2 eng slots. Combined with a mere 29K hull, they will melt under sustained fire. In fact, a well placed beam overload III could oneshot a two console armored vesta if buffed right.
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last i checked my fleet recon cant equip dual heavy cannons, or have a 5th science slot, or have a neat-o phaser lance like shot, or "perfect shields"... i could go on really.
Do you even Science Bro?
Yes torps and a dbb fail sometimes but they wont fail a whole match long. Also you notice the missing dps compared to 4 DHC if your dbb/torps fail.
Also yes sci ships lack spike but again a fleet sci recon with a dbb bo could also deal spike if it hits. We will see if this turns out to be a problem. Just stay calm and wait.
Also sci can deal quite some dmg with good timed torps or tric mines at the moment. Or with sci powers if there are some working at the time, like PSW once did.
So you are trying to build an escort with a sci ship. Should work but why dont you simply take an escort? Like the multi vector? Isn't there even some kind of fleet version of it with 5 tac consoles? In the end you trade your tac com for a sci com. Dont know if you really need that sci com, I think in an escort the tac might be better. Also you do have less turn rate and are missing one weapon slot.
The way I see it the vesta would be an escort with less dmg but one hangar. Don't know if its worth the trade. The vesta will provide some variety but I don't really think it will be that op. It might be in line with lockbox ships or the oddy.
I understand you rage but please just take a moment to think about it. The ship is certainly good no doubt but it's no way near what you are imagining.
It will be n very nice ship to pug in and probably good in farming randoms.
As someone else mentioned the Kar'fi. Look at the stats. It has a base turn of 8, thats more than a normal fed cruiser. It has 34,500 hull and an ok shield mod. Even a console that makes it untargetable. It has 2 hangars with unique pets, pets have tric mines and torps and even have chroniton torps as well.
So you have sci ship that can do as much dmg as an excelsior with pets as well and a special console. Sounds op? Well its a nice ship but I suppose you have seen it, it is nothing to worry about.
Stats can be misleading and I know you do not trust cryptic after all they have released. But please just wait and see. I really don't think it will be that bad and I am pretty sure it won't kick the bug of it's op throne.
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The set is fluff. Take the fluff away, and put a proper build in its place, and this ship outclasses most ships both in and out of it's class.
It has all the ability to completely and utter negate the alpha strike potential in addition to huge defense reserves to come back fighting. And when it does, DHC + Danubes + SS + VM + FBP + SNB will obliterate any opponent. But, I guess we will just have to wait and keep an eye on the Q's and forum for potential problems.
The problem is not really just this ship...
One needs to see the bigger picture.
5x TAC Console cloaking defiants + Armitage (Danubes) + Atrox (Danubes) + MVAM (pets) + Vesta (Danubes)
See the problem now?
What did they say regarding it being OP?
Not really, firepower should always be fully used even on 10km away. You probably mean using any valuable buffs which have a limited cooldown (Including RF's) are supposed to be used within 3~km for maximized Cannon effect.
For the rest you simply maximize your total damage output by simply spamming your DHC's no matter the range.
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Now the vesta will be strong ship, no doubt. If it is really better than the orb or the wells/korath depends what you want with it I suppose. The orb still has 2 lt cmdr which makes for a nice healer for example and the wells/korath has a very good console in addition to more turn, hp and shield.
As for the danubes, let's hope they manage to nerf them enough. Personally I never really had any lag problems because of spam. So I don't care if I fight a 5v5 carrier battle. The only problem is the tr.
The vesta will be strongest weapon based sci ship. But not everyone uses a sci ship just to shoot stuff. If you want to tbr the enemy healer away form the group, if you tbr an escort away from a friend, if you are just healing, if you want chroniton torps and torp spread for debuffs etc...
Lets just wait how the new concept turns out. There will be plenty of time to cry and call for nerfs once we actually tested this ship and have seen it in action. While I do intend to try out the vesta it won't stop me from playing my klinks.
Personally I would remove one console or the hangar. I can't see why the put 10 consoles and a hangar on it.
Also I am happy to see that they still release good ships in the zen store and not only in lockboxes.
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