There are plenty veteran reward programs in MMOs and I don't recall any of them giving out the rewards to any TRIBBLE that coughs up 200$ for instant access to all of them.
City of Heroes' Paragon Rewards system. You earned Paragon Points for time or money spent in-game. People could litterally buy veteran status by purchasing enough points. Sounds a little familiar...
... and that's the problem with inductive logic; it only takes one counterexample to break the argument.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
Fine - let's have another scenario: Person A walked into an Apple store 12 months ago, brought an Iphone 5, and received free headphones and one free itunes download every X amount of days for that year with it as part of a deal. The offer runs for a month then drops off.
Step forward one year - Apple introduces the Iphone 5 in white and pink - essentially exactly the same product (other than colour). Person B buys it. The selling point for this is that it includes free headphones and a bundle that equals downloads to the same number of days' worth of itunes downloads as you received over that past year.
So what's the difference? It's the same product, and the person who brought it purchased an iphone 5, same as yours, for the same price as you paid. They received the same EXTRAS as you too, but received it in one bundle rather than over a period of time. Since they essentially brought the same product - the iphone 5 - as you, why do they not deserve the same extras?
we went from iphones to accessorise sorry dont count and i will say this again if i had to wait so should they them geting the vet rewards before they have been apart of the game for X numbers of days is saying they are special
The Vet awards are the accessories. What you BROUGHT was an LFT. The rewards = accessories. They paid the same amount of money as you did for the same product, so why shouldn't they receive the same value for money?
But why should they? They paid the same amount of money as you did for the same product as you brought, so why shouldn't they receive the same value for money?
we can go like this all day if you like if i had to wait so should they
they would get there same value as you put it buy waiting just as i and others did
No they wouldn't, because they paid the same price as you did for the same product as you. You are simply saying you should get more because you brought yours earlier.
im saying this if i had to wait they should have to i do not see how they would not get the same value because they had to wait like lifers and subs did before them saying they wouldnt should just as well say the are special
we went from iphones to accessorise sorry dont count and i will say this again if i had to wait so should they them geting the vet rewards before they have been apart of the game for X numbers of days is saying they are special
By that token, should new players be prevented from playing "The 2800" Featured Series until they've been around for 2 years?
Well, will have to disagree on that one, because I haven't brought one yet and remains to be seen whether I do or not.
But if I DID I would be extremely pleased that, considering I'd be paying the same price as them, I'd be receving the same items and therefore the same value for money.
can we say we agree to disagree ???? because this not goin to get us no where as i said a lot of post back you have your opinion i have mine
well that a part of the core game not some what uset to be loyalty reward now is handed to you on a silver platter if you got the $$$$$
Perhaps they should rename them from "Veteran Rewards" to "Loyalty Rewards" then? Since the rewards are now based on monetary support of the game, instead of simply waiting around for some arbitrary amount of time?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
well that a part of the core game not some what uset to be loyalty reward now is handed to you on a silver platter if you got the $$$$$
The only measure of loyalty Cryptic ever tracked for this before was $$$$$. It would be different for me if the old vet rewards program actually required logging in. It didn't. The only reason rewards were delayed was because they weren't made yet.
Heck, even then, the timer was based on payment, not the game's launch or when you started playing. There are people weeks ahead or behind on vet rewards because it was based on when you made your sub payment, not when you started playing.
The person has laid out the money for the lifetime sub. Why make them wait for what they've paid for? They're going to get it regardless of how much or how often they play
if so... then they can wait for it and it makes no difference.
also the 2 OP examples are the exception, not the norm.
if we can go from that than a whole lot of arguments, like 3D space combat in STO because it was on screen 3 times or so should be the norm instead of this 2.5D combat system.
1000 Day Vet with 4000 hours played as of Steam.
but obviously that has nothing to do with being a long time veteran anymore, only shelling out $$$ has.
Oh well i'm used to it by now that Cryptic alters deals as they please... and if it is 1000 days later.
Have fun with your 500 Zen per month all you new Lifers because that is all you can look forward to from now on.
Perhaps they should rename them from "Veteran Rewards" to "Loyalty Rewards" then? Since the rewards are now based on monetary support of the game, instead of simply waiting around for some arbitrary amount of time?
i agree it should be renamed if you look around this hole move to do this has divided the lifer base and player base on the forums ones that are for it ones that are not
ive been asking my self how did this game make it as long as it did as a P2P game compared to swtor i now know why ppl like me and other buying life time subs
if so... then they can wait for it and it makes no difference.
also the 2 OP examples are the exception, not the norm.
if we can go from that than a whole lot of arguments, like 3D space combat in STO because it was on screen 3 times or so should be the norm instead of this 2.5D combat system.
1000 Day Vet with 4000 hours played as of Steam.
but obviously that has nothing to do with being a long time veteran anymore, only shelling out $$$ has.
Oh well i'm used to it by now that Cryptic alters deals as they please... and if it is 1000 days later.
Have fun with your 500 Zen per month all you new Lifers because that is all you can look forward to from now on.
To be fair, in a F2P world, someone could play 1000 hours and not have to contribute any money. IMPO, I think that renaming these rewards to Loyalty Rewards would be more accurate, as monetarily contributing to the game is more important to the longevity of the game as opposed to how long people play it.
Don't get me wrong; obviously, loyal, long-term customers are the best bet to garner more customers, create communities, and create potential for increased revenue. But hours spent playing STO doesn't necessarily translate into revenue. Subscriptions, LT Subs, and C-Store purchases are revenue.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
To be fair, in a F2P world, someone could play 1000 hours and not have to contribute any money. IMPO, I think that renaming these rewards to Loyalty Rewards would be more accurate, as monetarily contributing to the game is more important to the longevity of the game as opposed to how long people play it.
Don't get me wrong; obviously, loyal, long-term customers are the best bet to garner more customers, create communities, and create potential for increased revenue. But hours spent playing STO doesn't necessarily translate into revenue. Subscriptions, LT Subs, and C-Store purchases are revenue.
You can be damn well sure that someone who spent 4000 hrs in-game has spend some serious $ C-Points Atari Tokens and Zen on this game, with or without LTS.
Anyway.
I'm not angry because of this ONE thing.
When i bought my LTA i bought a subscription to a game that cost $15 a month.
Actually i first bought a one year sub and after that bought my LTS.
With F2P that LTS that was worth $15 a month formerly was reduced to $5 in Zen a month.
Then the 500 day Vet Reward of 250 Emblems (half a c-store ship in the old system) was removed, and the old default everyone gets it VA1 Ship Token was changed to a 600 day reward. So -250 Emlbems wich would now translate to maybe roughly 800 Zen bound to Character.
Then with F2P EVERYTHING in the C-Store got more expensive, so that the "Free" 500 Zen per month barely make up for the increased cost.
With that in mind it is debatable if the 500 Zen for an old pre F2P lifer are even worth $5 per month anymore, or if it was just compensation to not run away screaming from the new C-Store pricing.
And now, the only thing left, the bragging rights on some mostly mediocre VETERAN Rewards, which pretty much was the only thing giving spend TIME in the game any value is now turned into a instant access thing, like some expensive collectors edition item.
So no, my problem is not this one latest change, it is that by now the *thing* that i initially bought, has nothing to do anymore with what i got.
If you think all of that combined makes me feel like a valued customer, then you are dead wrong.
I totally get why they did it, they want to sell more LTAs in the new sale this way, but seriously, they could have added ANYTHING as incentive to their LTA sale, anything!
No they decided to turn the Veteran rewards into a collectors edition and by that chaning the deal.
Benefit for me? I got the 1000 day reward 20 days early, whoop de doo... big effing deal.
I got 9 rounds of vet rewards 20 days after everyone else and i should now be happy about getting this one early? Nope, i feel dirty for getting it early because my days still say 98x.
And if you think about it... all this rage and blah could have easily been avoided if they had left the vet rewards untouched and just ADDED something to ALL LTAs.
Like ... i don't know, a 16000 dil per day refinement limit, like Cryptic did for the 1000 day reward in Champions and we're not getting at all.
In that case everybody old and new lifers would have loved it... but no, they devalue the achievement of being a 1000 day vet by this move, make half their customers angry/displeased about it and the other half says *yay more free stuff for me*.
Or 5 more DOff assignments in progress.... or anything really. Just something else.
NO! We made a new Ship, Ships sell for BIG $$$. So lets sell it!
And that people are even considering buying this thing only for the Ship and saying "oh well it's still a better deal than buying LockBoxes".... *ugh* yah keep pushing people!
Next thing we see is regular C-Store Ships for $150 instead of $25 or $50 Odyssey / Vesta packs.
Just keep in mind... all your digital monocles will go poof when they shut the Servers down on us, and we have no idea when that might happen. Might be in 20 Years might be tomorrow.
And now, the only thing left, the bragging rights on some mostly mediocre VETERAN Rewards, which pretty much was the only thing giving spend TIME in the game any value is now turned into a instant access thing, like some expensive collectors edition item.
I don't see how purchase of a lifetime was ever anything else.
First of all... in the interest of establishing my own "Veteran cred", I have about 600 days subscription time. As of now, I have zero intention of purchasing an LTS. I don't have $200 spare, but I'm not sure if I would buy it if I did. I wouldn't get a lot of benefit out of it from my POV.
But let me assure people that IF I decide to subscribe for a month here and there, I will still be earning my Veteran Rewards the old-fashioned way. That part hasn't changed.
Also, I've spent WAY over $300 on this game over its' lifetime. I'm only sorry that I wasn't able to buy an LTS when I first started playing.
Second... I think renaming it to Loyalty Rewards is a fine idea. Especially if it chills the hubub over this. I really don't have a major problem with the idea of this being an LTS perk. They were going to earn all of that stuff eventually anyway. Whether they get it now or later doesn't seem all that important to me.
But -- if PWE does ever make that change, don't be too surprised if they start counting money spent in the C-Store towards a Loyalty Reward. If you're already upset about this, then that will probably burst blood vessels in your brain.
Third... Let's make sure we keep this discussion civil, okay? This is not directed at any poster specifically -- I'm just noticing that some people are not bothering to keep their responses to others on an impersonal level and that some tempers are fraying. This thread will have to be closed if it continues.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
You can be damn well sure that someone who spent 4000 hrs in-game has spend some serious $ C-Points Atari Tokens and Zen on this game, with or without LTS.
In a F2P world, there's actually zero correlation between time spent in-game and money spent in-game. It's possible to make it to Vice Admiral on in-game assets alone (Dilithium, ECs) while earning zero Lobi. Dilithium can be converted to Zen, allowing any player to purchase anything off of the C-STore with no real money investment. That's espeically true the longer one plays.
Anyway.
I'm not angry because of this ONE thing.
When i bought my LTA i bought a subscription to a game that cost $15 a month.
Actually i first bought a one year sub and after that bought my LTS.
With F2P that LTS that was worth $15 a month formerly was reduced to $5 in Zen a month.
Then the 500 day Vet Reward of 250 Emblems (half a c-store ship in the old system) was removed, and the old default everyone gets it VA1 Ship Token was changed to a 600 day reward. So -250 Emlbems wich would now translate to maybe roughly 800 Zen bound to Character.
Then with F2P EVERYTHING in the C-Store got more expensive, so that the "Free" 500 Zen per month barely make up for the increased cost.
No C-Store prices changed. 400 C-Points = 500 Zen, so unless There was some sort of superstitious repricing when this happened (and you can give an example), none of the prices went up.
With that in mind it is debatable if the 500 Zen for an old pre F2P lifer are even worth $5 per month anymore, or if it was just compensation to not run away screaming from the new C-Store pricing.
Of course it's debatable; what is enough for some is not nearly enough for others. Value is relative to an individual.
And now, the only thing left, the bragging rights on some mostly mediocre VETERAN Rewards, which pretty much was the only thing giving spend TIME in the game any value is now turned into a instant access thing, like some expensive collectors edition item.
So no, my problem is not this one latest change, it is that by now the *thing* that i initially bought, has nothing to do anymore with what i got.
If you think all of that combined makes me feel like a valued customer, then you are dead wrong.
Mediocrity is also pretty relative. For example, so me players will get a lot of usage out of those vet rewards respecs and skill boosts; others won't. One man's garbage is another's gold.
I totally get why they did it, they want to sell more LTAs in the new sale this way, but seriously, they could have added ANYTHING as incentive to their LTA sale, anything!
No they decided to turn the Veteran rewards into a collectors edition and by that chaning the deal.
Or 5 more DOff assignments in progress.... or anything really. Just something else.
NO! We made a new Ship, Ships sell for BIG $$$. So lets sell it!
Certainly, a new, shiney ship is a big selling point. Probably, there are some people who purchased LT subs just for the ship. But there are also certainly others who purchased them for the ship AND everything else that a LT sub entails, especially with ALL of the vet rewards tied in. Android BOff, unlockable captain options, etc. Considering that, whent eh game came out, some of these options were $60-$80 alone (including a free month of game play, etc.), is it really any surprise that people would be willing to put $200 down, and never have to pay a sub again for all of this AND all the Gold sub benefits? In the end, ths ship might have a part to do in this, but the other "mediocre" rewards are almost certainly part of the equation as well.
And that people are even considering buying this thing only for the Ship and saying "oh well it's still a better deal than buying LockBoxes".... *ugh* yah keep pushing people!
Next thing we see is regular C-Store Ships for $150 instead of $25 or $50 Odyssey / Vesta packs.
Slippery slope argument.
Benefit for me? I got the 1000 day reward 20 days early, whoop de doo... big effing deal.
I got 9 rounds of vet rewards 20 days after everyone else and i should now be happy about getting this one early? Nope, i feel dirty for getting it early because my days still say 98x.
And if you think about it... all this rage and blah could have easily been avoided if they had left the vet rewards untouched and just ADDED something to ALL LTAs.
Like ... i don't know, a 16000 dil per day refinement limit, like Cryptic did for the 1000 day reward in Champions and we're not getting at all.
In that case everybody old and new lifers would have loved it... but no, they devalue the achievement of being a 1000 day vet by this move, make half their customers angry/displeased about it and the other half says *yay more free stuff for me*.
I see this word "devalue" used a lot recently. What was taken away from you? A sense of self-worth? Bragging rights? Being here since Day 1? They can probably give a special accolade for that instead; would that make things better?
But which is better: hanging around for 1000 days to get a reward, or putting money into the game? Example: I bough my wife a LT sub when the game launched, and she is a 1000 day vet, entitled to everything the vet reward system has to offer even without the change to LT subs; yet she has not played the game once since beta. Doe that also devalue what you've done in the game, knowing a player with zero experience has access to all of these items, yet hasn't played the game once since it went live?
More to your point though: what could Cryptic have offered that would not seem like another "mediocre" reward to Lifetime subscribers? How would Cryptic be able to reasonably offer a 1000-day ship to new customers? Will the game be around for another 1000 days? It's a risk, certainly, to invest in a LT sub at this point and then hope the game IS around for another 1000 days so one can earn a ship. Which brings me to my next point:
Just keep in mind... all your digital monocles will go poof when they shut the Servers down on us, and we have no idea when that might happen. Might be in 20 Years might be tomorrow.
In my opinion, that's a reason as to why Cryptic did all of this in the first place. LT Subs are a risk, so there should be some reward in purchasing them almost three years after the game has launched; new players are putting faith towards the longevity of STO
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
I don't see how purchase of a lifetime was ever anything else.
Well it was never exclusive to the LTA anyway,
you get the same items for being a monthly Gold member for the same amount of time.
Note that Silver did not even exist back then.
It was a reward system for staying subscribed, and if you happen to buy a LTS you automatically stay subscribed, how you chose to spend your money had nothing to do with it.
Now it does, monthlies still have to wait, LTS gets instant access.... 20 days before the system runs out anyway, so we got nothing out of this. Only the debatable bragging rights are gone now.
LTS is just a form of Subscription, but now that the time for the first few is up in that reward system, they change it.
What else is new?
How would you feel if... right before you reach Starbase Tier 5 they would just upgrade all Starbases to Tier 5 because they felt bad for small 5 man fleets who are still stuck at Tier 3? (of course those guys need access to the Tier 5 Fleet ships so we can SELL those fleet modules... hey perfectly justified move on their end!)
Or if they just put the STF XII Armors in the Dilithium Store for everyone who does not want to suffer through any more STFs?
Or that Reman XII set...
or...
For us oldschoolers that LTS has lost so much of it's value already, if i had known all of this, i would just have waited for F2P and maybe bought another one year sub instead of the LTS.
I mean good for all the new guys who buy it...
but that doesn't make ME feel valued as a customer in any form or shape.
Now all we have is more silly Drama between players (you can be sure cryptic doesn't give a cr*p as long as those LTAs sell good, and they will).
and for the record, i'm not raging, i'm just arguing.
after 1000 day's i'm all out of rage for this game.
No C-Store prices changed. 400 C-Points = 500 Zen, so unless There was some sort of superstitious repricing when this happened (and you can give an example), none of the prices went up.
uhm no... not C-Point to Zen, that was months later.
C-Point to C-Point directly at F2P launch.
for example all Tier 5 Ships were increased from 1200 C-Points to 1600 C-Points (1600 CP = 2000 Zen)
the formerly free Tier 3 Nebula and Excelsior were turned into C-Store items.
Tribbles and Pets were changed to be PER CHAR instead of Account wide...
A free way to get Respecs was removed, Respecs increased to... what? 500 C-Points? instead of 150 or so? I only remember that people particularly raged about that one...
There were like 3 token items that ended up cheaper than before (i think the NX-01, Constitution and Oberth?), a few (Tier 2?) stayed the same, everything else went up in price, don't ask me which ones exactly, i did not write it down ;P
Yes that happened.
There was even a last opportunity 20% sale right before F2P launched just for that reason.
Let's say in 2010, you buy a newly built house in a brand new neighbourhood for $300,000.00 - however, the streets are not yet paved, there are no sidewalks (just dirt), internet is limited to dial-up, the nearby school doesn't have a playground yet, and the grass has yet to grow.
Regardless, you move in, and over the next 2 years, the grass grows, the school builds a lovely playground, the streets are paved, they put in lovely interlock sidewalks, and just yesterday they finished laying fiber-optic cables for the neighbourhood. Life is good.
Today in 2012, someone else buys house in your neighbourhood for $300,000.00 and move in. The streets are already paved, the sidewalks are lovely, the grass is thick and green, the playground is shiny and fun, and internet access is awesome. They get to enjoy all that the moment they move in.
You're saying that's not fair, that they should have to wait 2 years before having access to all those things, because you had to wait for 2 years before you got to experience it.
Let's say in 2010, you buy a newly built house in a brand new neighbourhood for $300,000.00 - however, the streets are not yet paved, there are no sidewalks (just dirt), internet is limited to dial-up, the nearby school doesn't have a playground yet, and the grass has yet to grow.
Regardless, you move in, and over the next 2 years, the grass grows, the school builds a lovely playground, the streets are paved, they put in lovely interlock sidewalks, and just yesterday they finished laying fiber-optic cables for the neighbourhood. Life is good.
Today in 2012, someone else buys house in your neighbourhood for $300,000.00 and move in. The streets are already paved, the sidewalks are lovely, the grass is thick and green, the playground is shiny and fun, and internet access is awesome. They get to enjoy all that the moment they move in.
You're saying that's not fair, that they should have to wait 2 years before having access to all those things, because you had to wait for 2 years before you got to experience it.
Comparing land ownership to vet rewards isn't even close to the same thing. Owning a house is an investment, usually requiring a mortgage and taxes, and all of the things you listed there affect the property value of your purchase. Theya re two entirely different investment concepts.
a better comparison is waiting in line all night for the new iPhone just to find when they open the doors that the people who are just walking in can buy it before you.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
a better comparison is waiting in line all night for the new iPhone just to find when they open the doors that the people who are just walking in can buy it before you.
Actually, that's a horribly inaccurate comparison.
A more accurate comparison would be that you bought the iPhone 2 years ago, and every few months they come out with a free accessory. Then somebody else buys the iPhone today, and they get all those free accessories at once.
You've still had it for 2 years. You got all the extras the moment they became available.
Your analogy completely ignores the fact that you had already been using the item for the last 2 years, and got all the extras the month it became available.
oh please don't start with these apples and bananas comparisons, this never leads anywhere, even if it sounds good in your head.
Apples and bananas?
It can easily be generalized though - all the analogies about why it's petty matches the situation exactly when it comes to early LTS vs new LTS:
Customer A purchased access 2 years ago, and regularly received extras every 100 days.
Customer B purchases access today, and gets all the extras available now.
Customer A is complaining because he had to wait for the extras to come out, but Customer B got them the moment he made his purchase. This is petty because Customer A conveniently ignores the fact that he had already (supposedly) enjoyed that something for 2 years, and all the extras when they became available. Further, while both customers have paid the same amount Customer A will always have (supposedly) enjoyed that exact same product 2 years longer than Customer B will ever be able to.
The day STO shuts down, both Customer A and Customer B will no longer be able to play. For the same amount of money, Customer A would have had gotten 2 more years of play out of it.
The reason some lifers are melting down is because expectations weren't met. Sure, you can say that 1000 days ago there wasn't a vet program, but the moment there was and the moment the posted all of the vet rewards, they set expectations that the players can now have.
For me, I don't care about those who may have been a lifer since launch and they aren't active anymore. It is not fair to make it seem as though they are the majority and therefore dismiss our concerns so easily. There are a number of lifers, myself included, who have been here since Closed Beta doing testing and then whenever there was new content hitting tribble, we would be there too to test the new stuff and report any bugs (especially those that may be obvious to those who have a lot of STO playing experience). So don't dismiss this so easily when Cryptic were the ones who created the vet rewards and now giving them all away for free with the purchase of a lifetime subscription. To me, the milestones in the vet rewards were significant because I have been here playing with my fleet since day 1 and also doing crazy testing when needed. Dismiss this, ignore the expectations some players had as a reward for their time (because testing is not always fun, in fact, beta and any testing after is frustrating if bug ridden) and you are devaluing the time and effort some players have put in to try and make this a better game and community.
There will be plenty of ships coming down the line and plenty in the c-store, I don't know why they couldn't offer new lifers a carrot other than the one that was only for those who have put in the 1000 days (regardless of whether or not you think they have been an active player during that time). Again, Cryptic set the expectations with creating the program...it isn't fair of you or them to now say "sorry, stop being so petty".
Comparing land ownership to vet rewards isn't even close to the same thing. Owning a house is an investment, usually requiring a mortgage and taxes, and all of the things you listed there affect the property value of your purchase. Theya re two entirely different investment concepts.
a better comparison is waiting in line all night for the new iPhone just to find when they open the doors that the people who are just walking in can buy it before you.
My comparison is simpler: In-game content.
A lot of players had to suffer through a drought of story content between Cloaked Intentions and The 2800.
But I have yet to find anyone who agrees with the idea that new players should have to wait a year between playing CI and 2800.
Comments
... and that's the problem with inductive logic; it only takes one counterexample to break the argument.
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
we went from iphones to accessorise sorry dont count and i will say this again if i had to wait so should they them geting the vet rewards before they have been apart of the game for X numbers of days is saying they are special
system Lord Baal is dead
system Lord Baal is dead
we can go like this all day if you like if i had to wait so should they
they would get there same value as you put it buy waiting just as i and others did
system Lord Baal is dead
im saying this if i had to wait they should have to i do not see how they would not get the same value because they had to wait like lifers and subs did before them saying they wouldnt should just as well say the are special
system Lord Baal is dead
By that token, should new players be prevented from playing "The 2800" Featured Series until they've been around for 2 years?
now your cherry picking
system Lord Baal is dead
can we say we agree to disagree ???? because this not goin to get us no where as i said a lot of post back you have your opinion i have mine
system Lord Baal is dead
I don't see the difference.
In both cases, you have something Cryptic couldn't release because it didn't exist. Now that it exists, someone can get it without waiting for it.
well that a part of the core game not some what uset to be loyalty reward now is handed to you on a silver platter if you got the $$$$$
system Lord Baal is dead
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
The only measure of loyalty Cryptic ever tracked for this before was $$$$$. It would be different for me if the old vet rewards program actually required logging in. It didn't. The only reason rewards were delayed was because they weren't made yet.
Heck, even then, the timer was based on payment, not the game's launch or when you started playing. There are people weeks ahead or behind on vet rewards because it was based on when you made your sub payment, not when you started playing.
if so... then they can wait for it and it makes no difference.
also the 2 OP examples are the exception, not the norm.
if we can go from that than a whole lot of arguments, like 3D space combat in STO because it was on screen 3 times or so should be the norm instead of this 2.5D combat system.
1000 Day Vet with 4000 hours played as of Steam.
but obviously that has nothing to do with being a long time veteran anymore, only shelling out $$$ has.
Oh well i'm used to it by now that Cryptic alters deals as they please... and if it is 1000 days later.
Have fun with your 500 Zen per month all you new Lifers because that is all you can look forward to from now on.
i agree it should be renamed if you look around this hole move to do this has divided the lifer base and player base on the forums ones that are for it ones that are not
ive been asking my self how did this game make it as long as it did as a P2P game compared to swtor i now know why ppl like me and other buying life time subs
system Lord Baal is dead
Don't get me wrong; obviously, loyal, long-term customers are the best bet to garner more customers, create communities, and create potential for increased revenue. But hours spent playing STO doesn't necessarily translate into revenue. Subscriptions, LT Subs, and C-Store purchases are revenue.
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
You can be damn well sure that someone who spent 4000 hrs in-game has spend some serious $ C-Points Atari Tokens and Zen on this game, with or without LTS.
Anyway.
I'm not angry because of this ONE thing.
When i bought my LTA i bought a subscription to a game that cost $15 a month.
Actually i first bought a one year sub and after that bought my LTS.
With F2P that LTS that was worth $15 a month formerly was reduced to $5 in Zen a month.
Then the 500 day Vet Reward of 250 Emblems (half a c-store ship in the old system) was removed, and the old default everyone gets it VA1 Ship Token was changed to a 600 day reward. So -250 Emlbems wich would now translate to maybe roughly 800 Zen bound to Character.
Then with F2P EVERYTHING in the C-Store got more expensive, so that the "Free" 500 Zen per month barely make up for the increased cost.
With that in mind it is debatable if the 500 Zen for an old pre F2P lifer are even worth $5 per month anymore, or if it was just compensation to not run away screaming from the new C-Store pricing.
And now, the only thing left, the bragging rights on some mostly mediocre VETERAN Rewards, which pretty much was the only thing giving spend TIME in the game any value is now turned into a instant access thing, like some expensive collectors edition item.
So no, my problem is not this one latest change, it is that by now the *thing* that i initially bought, has nothing to do anymore with what i got.
If you think all of that combined makes me feel like a valued customer, then you are dead wrong.
I totally get why they did it, they want to sell more LTAs in the new sale this way, but seriously, they could have added ANYTHING as incentive to their LTA sale, anything!
No they decided to turn the Veteran rewards into a collectors edition and by that chaning the deal.
Benefit for me? I got the 1000 day reward 20 days early, whoop de doo... big effing deal.
I got 9 rounds of vet rewards 20 days after everyone else and i should now be happy about getting this one early? Nope, i feel dirty for getting it early because my days still say 98x.
And if you think about it... all this rage and blah could have easily been avoided if they had left the vet rewards untouched and just ADDED something to ALL LTAs.
Like ... i don't know, a 16000 dil per day refinement limit, like Cryptic did for the 1000 day reward in Champions and we're not getting at all.
In that case everybody old and new lifers would have loved it... but no, they devalue the achievement of being a 1000 day vet by this move, make half their customers angry/displeased about it and the other half says *yay more free stuff for me*.
Or 5 more DOff assignments in progress.... or anything really. Just something else.
NO! We made a new Ship, Ships sell for BIG $$$. So lets sell it!
And that people are even considering buying this thing only for the Ship and saying "oh well it's still a better deal than buying LockBoxes".... *ugh* yah keep pushing people!
Next thing we see is regular C-Store Ships for $150 instead of $25 or $50 Odyssey / Vesta packs.
Just keep in mind... all your digital monocles will go poof when they shut the Servers down on us, and we have no idea when that might happen. Might be in 20 Years might be tomorrow.
I don't see how purchase of a lifetime was ever anything else.
But let me assure people that IF I decide to subscribe for a month here and there, I will still be earning my Veteran Rewards the old-fashioned way. That part hasn't changed.
Also, I've spent WAY over $300 on this game over its' lifetime. I'm only sorry that I wasn't able to buy an LTS when I first started playing.
Second... I think renaming it to Loyalty Rewards is a fine idea. Especially if it chills the hubub over this. I really don't have a major problem with the idea of this being an LTS perk. They were going to earn all of that stuff eventually anyway. Whether they get it now or later doesn't seem all that important to me.
But -- if PWE does ever make that change, don't be too surprised if they start counting money spent in the C-Store towards a Loyalty Reward. If you're already upset about this, then that will probably burst blood vessels in your brain.
Third... Let's make sure we keep this discussion civil, okay? This is not directed at any poster specifically -- I'm just noticing that some people are not bothering to keep their responses to others on an impersonal level and that some tempers are fraying. This thread will have to be closed if it continues.
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No C-Store prices changed. 400 C-Points = 500 Zen, so unless There was some sort of superstitious repricing when this happened (and you can give an example), none of the prices went up.
Of course it's debatable; what is enough for some is not nearly enough for others. Value is relative to an individual.
Mediocrity is also pretty relative. For example, so me players will get a lot of usage out of those vet rewards respecs and skill boosts; others won't. One man's garbage is another's gold.
Certainly, a new, shiney ship is a big selling point. Probably, there are some people who purchased LT subs just for the ship. But there are also certainly others who purchased them for the ship AND everything else that a LT sub entails, especially with ALL of the vet rewards tied in. Android BOff, unlockable captain options, etc. Considering that, whent eh game came out, some of these options were $60-$80 alone (including a free month of game play, etc.), is it really any surprise that people would be willing to put $200 down, and never have to pay a sub again for all of this AND all the Gold sub benefits? In the end, ths ship might have a part to do in this, but the other "mediocre" rewards are almost certainly part of the equation as well.
Slippery slope argument.
I see this word "devalue" used a lot recently. What was taken away from you? A sense of self-worth? Bragging rights? Being here since Day 1? They can probably give a special accolade for that instead; would that make things better?
But which is better: hanging around for 1000 days to get a reward, or putting money into the game? Example: I bough my wife a LT sub when the game launched, and she is a 1000 day vet, entitled to everything the vet reward system has to offer even without the change to LT subs; yet she has not played the game once since beta. Doe that also devalue what you've done in the game, knowing a player with zero experience has access to all of these items, yet hasn't played the game once since it went live?
More to your point though: what could Cryptic have offered that would not seem like another "mediocre" reward to Lifetime subscribers? How would Cryptic be able to reasonably offer a 1000-day ship to new customers? Will the game be around for another 1000 days? It's a risk, certainly, to invest in a LT sub at this point and then hope the game IS around for another 1000 days so one can earn a ship. Which brings me to my next point:
In my opinion, that's a reason as to why Cryptic did all of this in the first place. LT Subs are a risk, so there should be some reward in purchasing them almost three years after the game has launched; new players are putting faith towards the longevity of STO
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
Well it was never exclusive to the LTA anyway,
you get the same items for being a monthly Gold member for the same amount of time.
Note that Silver did not even exist back then.
It was a reward system for staying subscribed, and if you happen to buy a LTS you automatically stay subscribed, how you chose to spend your money had nothing to do with it.
Now it does, monthlies still have to wait, LTS gets instant access.... 20 days before the system runs out anyway, so we got nothing out of this. Only the debatable bragging rights are gone now.
LTS is just a form of Subscription, but now that the time for the first few is up in that reward system, they change it.
What else is new?
How would you feel if... right before you reach Starbase Tier 5 they would just upgrade all Starbases to Tier 5 because they felt bad for small 5 man fleets who are still stuck at Tier 3? (of course those guys need access to the Tier 5 Fleet ships so we can SELL those fleet modules... hey perfectly justified move on their end!)
Or if they just put the STF XII Armors in the Dilithium Store for everyone who does not want to suffer through any more STFs?
Or that Reman XII set...
or...
For us oldschoolers that LTS has lost so much of it's value already, if i had known all of this, i would just have waited for F2P and maybe bought another one year sub instead of the LTS.
I mean good for all the new guys who buy it...
but that doesn't make ME feel valued as a customer in any form or shape.
Now all we have is more silly Drama between players (you can be sure cryptic doesn't give a cr*p as long as those LTAs sell good, and they will).
and for the record, i'm not raging, i'm just arguing.
after 1000 day's i'm all out of rage for this game.
uhm no... not C-Point to Zen, that was months later.
C-Point to C-Point directly at F2P launch.
for example all Tier 5 Ships were increased from 1200 C-Points to 1600 C-Points (1600 CP = 2000 Zen)
the formerly free Tier 3 Nebula and Excelsior were turned into C-Store items.
Tribbles and Pets were changed to be PER CHAR instead of Account wide...
A free way to get Respecs was removed, Respecs increased to... what? 500 C-Points? instead of 150 or so? I only remember that people particularly raged about that one...
There were like 3 token items that ended up cheaper than before (i think the NX-01, Constitution and Oberth?), a few (Tier 2?) stayed the same, everything else went up in price, don't ask me which ones exactly, i did not write it down ;P
Yes that happened.
There was even a last opportunity 20% sale right before F2P launched just for that reason.
//edit: here is the link http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=564801
...that was way before the C-Point to Zen conversion,
to my surprise they did not use that opportunity to ninja in some new pricetags with that.
Let's say in 2010, you buy a newly built house in a brand new neighbourhood for $300,000.00 - however, the streets are not yet paved, there are no sidewalks (just dirt), internet is limited to dial-up, the nearby school doesn't have a playground yet, and the grass has yet to grow.
Regardless, you move in, and over the next 2 years, the grass grows, the school builds a lovely playground, the streets are paved, they put in lovely interlock sidewalks, and just yesterday they finished laying fiber-optic cables for the neighbourhood. Life is good.
Today in 2012, someone else buys house in your neighbourhood for $300,000.00 and move in. The streets are already paved, the sidewalks are lovely, the grass is thick and green, the playground is shiny and fun, and internet access is awesome. They get to enjoy all that the moment they move in.
You're saying that's not fair, that they should have to wait 2 years before having access to all those things, because you had to wait for 2 years before you got to experience it.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Comparing land ownership to vet rewards isn't even close to the same thing. Owning a house is an investment, usually requiring a mortgage and taxes, and all of the things you listed there affect the property value of your purchase. Theya re two entirely different investment concepts.
a better comparison is waiting in line all night for the new iPhone just to find when they open the doors that the people who are just walking in can buy it before you.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Actually, that's a horribly inaccurate comparison.
A more accurate comparison would be that you bought the iPhone 2 years ago, and every few months they come out with a free accessory. Then somebody else buys the iPhone today, and they get all those free accessories at once.
You've still had it for 2 years. You got all the extras the moment they became available.
Your analogy completely ignores the fact that you had already been using the item for the last 2 years, and got all the extras the month it became available.
Apples and bananas?
It can easily be generalized though - all the analogies about why it's petty matches the situation exactly when it comes to early LTS vs new LTS:
Customer A purchased access 2 years ago, and regularly received extras every 100 days.
Customer B purchases access today, and gets all the extras available now.
Customer A is complaining because he had to wait for the extras to come out, but Customer B got them the moment he made his purchase. This is petty because Customer A conveniently ignores the fact that he had already (supposedly) enjoyed that something for 2 years, and all the extras when they became available. Further, while both customers have paid the same amount Customer A will always have (supposedly) enjoyed that exact same product 2 years longer than Customer B will ever be able to.
The day STO shuts down, both Customer A and Customer B will no longer be able to play. For the same amount of money, Customer A would have had gotten 2 more years of play out of it.
For me, I don't care about those who may have been a lifer since launch and they aren't active anymore. It is not fair to make it seem as though they are the majority and therefore dismiss our concerns so easily. There are a number of lifers, myself included, who have been here since Closed Beta doing testing and then whenever there was new content hitting tribble, we would be there too to test the new stuff and report any bugs (especially those that may be obvious to those who have a lot of STO playing experience). So don't dismiss this so easily when Cryptic were the ones who created the vet rewards and now giving them all away for free with the purchase of a lifetime subscription. To me, the milestones in the vet rewards were significant because I have been here playing with my fleet since day 1 and also doing crazy testing when needed. Dismiss this, ignore the expectations some players had as a reward for their time (because testing is not always fun, in fact, beta and any testing after is frustrating if bug ridden) and you are devaluing the time and effort some players have put in to try and make this a better game and community.
There will be plenty of ships coming down the line and plenty in the c-store, I don't know why they couldn't offer new lifers a carrot other than the one that was only for those who have put in the 1000 days (regardless of whether or not you think they have been an active player during that time). Again, Cryptic set the expectations with creating the program...it isn't fair of you or them to now say "sorry, stop being so petty".
What other form of subscription got playable Borg?
My comparison is simpler: In-game content.
A lot of players had to suffer through a drought of story content between Cloaked Intentions and The 2800.
But I have yet to find anyone who agrees with the idea that new players should have to wait a year between playing CI and 2800.
yes i am i dont see any new lifer being any more special then i am
system Lord Baal is dead