You're no google. In fact, your exchange search tool really sucks.
Fix it please. "All" doesn't show the best results. I can't imagine google behaving that way.
You're dead wrong on an operational basis and you're teetering on morally out of line in my book.
I hesitate to talk about gamer entitlement because I think gets used to defend bad development choices. And I think a level of snark and cynicism on the forums can be a good thing.
But you've completely undercut everything you ever said about quality story development in this thread.
You clearly know how to critique and find holes... and I found your harsh mission reviews informative. But I don't think you know the first thing about nurturing creativity if that's your attitude.
I think the friggin' WORST company could use flex time, better internal feedback channels, and solid brainstorming. It's not what you "earn" by being the best. It's how you get good and stay good.
I just think we should be glad Dan's response wasn't: "personal side projects are banned at PWE now and no dev is allowed to announce a feature that isn't on the approved project timeline".
That's honestly the easiest way for PWE to take care of this problem. And I'm really glad its not what we were told. Everyone angry for some reason needs to step back and relaize how worse of a response we could have gotten and be a bit glad Dan did give us a response.
I just think we should be glad Dan's response wasn't: "personal side projects are banned at PWE now and no dev is allowed to announce a feature that isn't on the approved project timeline".
I wouldn't mind this if they also said in the same line that they are massively expanding their departments so as to upscale their content creation power. More devs = more paid manhours = more content produced (hopefully). This also costs more, but that's why the game went F2P, because it makes that much more money than subs.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
I just think we should be glad Dan's response wasn't: "personal side projects are banned at PWE now and no dev is allowed to announce a feature that isn't on the approved project timeline".
That's honestly the easiest way for PWE to take care of this problem. And I'm really glad its not what we were told. Everyone angry for some reason needs to step back and relaize how worse of a response we could have gotten and be a bit glad Dan did give us a response.
True, I think we should be glad the Devs are as personable as they are. Sure it can lead to some interesting situations *Cough*thislastMay*Cough*. But hey, we're all human, we say stupid things all the time, I can't really fault the Devs for saying stuff like that too every once and a while.
The thing is, is that even though they aren't willing to follow the community on everything, (Lockboxes are still around aren't they? :P) but there is a laundry list of things that have been included at the communities request.
Sorry, I in no way meant to imply that I would hide things I'm doing for my actual job. If I make a mistake, I stand up and take my lumps.
However, personal things, I don't like to advertise until I'm sure they'll turn into something. There are plenty of test projects that don't go anywhere. Plus I have some kind of hobby ADD, where I'm intensely interested in something for a while, then it fades and I pick something else up for a bit, then back to the first again. So if I went off raving about the cool new thing I'm doing, everytime there's a cool new thing I'm doing, everyone would be sick of it by now since maybe 1/10th of them get done. Can't help it, just who I am, so I prefer to stay quiet about them.
taco, this peeked my interests. What is a "side project", that you designed to fruition, that we are playing now?
I'm not sure that I have anything in STO like that, but in Champions, the Powerhouse Revamp I mentioned was started entirely by me. I had been involved when we had been forced to re-organize it previously, and it was done entirely for performance, and never felt right. I saw things that could be done to improve the whole thing, and turn it into a more social space, including other aspects of the game without undermining them. So, I started building. And I hadn't planned to show anyone what I was up to until I had more done, but a bubble opened in my schedule, so I talked to my lead and pitched my idea for it, and they let me run with it. It still didn't get finished, there's a whole wing left to do, but I got pulled to STO before I could do it.
The problem is, you are putting unfinished side-projects into the game, before they are finished.
Admittedly (ideally), those things should not be in the game. But look at the above example of the Champions Power House. Started as a side project, moved to a real project, I get pulled off the team and put on another team before I consider it done. No one is scheduled to finish it to my knowledge. Maybe someday it will be, but for now, I think (hope) that Champions is far better off with what was finished being put into the game, than if we'd just dumped it all when I got moved to STO.
I don't want unfinished things in this game, done half way, then put in, and stated to complete it later. As a gamer, I can't accept that. We have to hold you guys to a higher standard. This MMO, from the start, was supposed to be a different kind of MMO. We have to hold up a certain level of quality, and let you know what our expectations are in terms of quality of this game. It's important to us.
If you come up something cool in your flex time, that's great, but tell someone about it, the manager should know about all side projects going on so he knows what to look forward to. Don't put these things created in flext time into the game until they are ready.
I understand your frustration, and agree that things need to be finished to a passable standard before being implemented. But when I'm saying we're working on side projects, MOST of those should be invisible to players. We have test folders for maps and assets, which are specifically excluded from all builds, that's where we do our projects until they're ready for showtime, then things get moved into proper folders.
And finally, I feel that the things Cryptic is prioritizing again, doesn't mesh with what the gamers what for this game. It was shocking news to me that vet rewards are a side-project, I would have thought that would have been a main project. I was shocked to see how many things put into the game are side-projects, and not given a greater priority.
I don't want to put words in Dan's mouth, but I don't think he meant to qualify all of those things AS side projects. I believe he was just speaking of Projects, and Side Projects in general, and the trouble that comes with someone responsible for said project leaving suddenly. I don't think I was around when the 700 Day vet thing was being done, but the 1000 Day ship is definitely on the schedule and being worked on by multiple people during work hours.
Seems like, with this method, a bunch of time could be wasted spent working on something that never ends up being a part of the game. I guess that's why I think someone higher up should look at it, and prioritize its importance for the game. Time could be better spent working on main projects.
Sure, time could be wasted. But it's MY personal time. If I choose to waste it, so be it. No one should be telling me what I should and shouldn't do with my own personal time, or what priority this thing that I REALLY want to do, should be.
And there still seems to be some confusion that this is somehow my personal time ON the clock, DURING working hours. It is not. When we're talking about side projects, picture someone like myself, finishing my normal work for the day, shutting down my computer, and walking out of the building. Then I walk back in of my own free will, on my own free time, and turn my computer back on. This is NOT Flex time within working hours. This is PERSONAL OFF THE CLOCK TIME.
Perhaps we need to encourage and plead with the Dev's still talking to us, to develop a 'side-interest' in all the little nagging things that flounder throughout the game...
Maybe even bribe Them with Bacon and/or Cookies.
(seeing how Bacon is almost worth the price of Gas & Gold out there, it might just work)
How about in the future, They just out-right-state that what They are working on IS a 'Side/Pet Project' and avoid this whole mess to begin with.
As much as I love to be bribed with bacon and chocolate, this goes right back to Overjustification. You will never, ever, ever, not in a million years, be able to dictate what someone is passionate about. No matter how passionate you yourself are, you cannot tell someone else to join your love for that thing. They have to find it themselves.
I don't want to put words in Dan's mouth, but I don't think he meant to qualify all of those things AS side projects. I believe he was just speaking of Projects, and Side Projects in general, and the trouble that comes with someone responsible for said project leaving suddenly. I don't think I was around when the 700 Day vet thing was being done, but the 1000 Day ship is definitely on the schedule and being worked on by multiple people during work hours.
The 700 day vet thing would have been worked on around a year ago since the 700 day veteran reward was released in December 2011 or January 2012. The 700 day veteran reward was an android bridge officer so having the male engineer android was all that was needed to finish the 700 day veteran reward project. However, some dev wanted to provide options since not everyone wants a male engineer android. So the extra options for the 700 day veteran reward was the side project of a dev. However, I don't know if dstahl put it on jheinig's official projects list or if it is still a side project. However, he is the dev that is assumed to be working on the optional android bridge officers and has been on medical leave for a while which might have delayed this project from being completed.
I want to thank tacofangs for his replies in this thread, I think they have been some of the best, detailed information we've had yet about the inner workings of Cryptic.
I also agree with your stance that nothing should be mentioned of side projects, until they are for sure going to be put in-game, and nearing completion. Only main projects should be divulged, and keep side-projects private, until they are ready to be put in-game.
3 years playing this game, and it starts to get to you when projects get implemented in-game, but are never finished.
You're dead wrong on an operational basis and you're teetering on morally out of line in my book.
I hesitate to talk about gamer entitlement because I think gets used to defend bad development choices. And I think a level of snark and cynicism on the forums can be a good thing.
But you've completely undercut everything you ever said about quality story development in this thread.
You clearly know how to critique and find holes... and I found your harsh mission reviews informative. But I don't think you know the first thing about nurturing creativity if that's your attitude.
I think the friggin' WORST company could use flex time, better internal feedback channels, and solid brainstorming. It's not what you "earn" by being the best. It's how you get good and stay good.
Um dude I'm just asking if their exchange search could please work properly. I'm not sure what you are responding to here.
Sorry, I in no way meant to imply that I would hide things I'm doing for my actual job. If I make a mistake, I stand up and take my lumps.
However, personal things, I don't like to advertise until I'm sure they'll turn into something. There are plenty of test projects that don't go anywhere. Plus I have some kind of hobby ADD, where I'm intensely interested in something for a while, then it fades and I pick something else up for a bit, then back to the first again. So if I went off raving about the cool new thing I'm doing, everytime there's a cool new thing I'm doing, everyone would be sick of it by now since maybe 1/10th of them get done. Can't help it, just who I am, so I prefer to stay quiet about them.
WHO TOLD YOU ABOUT MY DANCING MUGATO!??!!!
I'm not sure that I have anything in STO like that, but in Champions, the Powerhouse Revamp I mentioned was started entirely by me. I had been involved when we had been forced to re-organize it previously, and it was done entirely for performance, and never felt right. I saw things that could be done to improve the whole thing, and turn it into a more social space, including other aspects of the game without undermining them. So, I started building. And I hadn't planned to show anyone what I was up to until I had more done, but a bubble opened in my schedule, so I talked to my lead and pitched my idea for it, and they let me run with it. It still didn't get finished, there's a whole wing left to do, but I got pulled to STO before I could do it.
Admittedly (ideally), those things should not be in the game. But look at the above example of the Champions Power House. Started as a side project, moved to a real project, I get pulled off the team and put on another team before I consider it done. No one is scheduled to finish it to my knowledge. Maybe someday it will be, but for now, I think (hope) that Champions is far better off with what was finished being put into the game, than if we'd just dumped it all when I got moved to STO.
I understand your frustration, and agree that things need to be finished to a passable standard before being implemented. But when I'm saying we're working on side projects, MOST of those should be invisible to players. We have test folders for maps and assets, which are specifically excluded from all builds, that's where we do our projects until they're ready for showtime, then things get moved into proper folders.
I don't want to put words in Dan's mouth, but I don't think he meant to qualify all of those things AS side projects. I believe he was just speaking of Projects, and Side Projects in general, and the trouble that comes with someone responsible for said project leaving suddenly. I don't think I was around when the 700 Day vet thing was being done, but the 1000 Day ship is definitely on the schedule and being worked on by multiple people during work hours.
Sure, time could be wasted. But it's MY personal time. If I choose to waste it, so be it. No one should be telling me what I should and shouldn't do with my own personal time, or what priority this thing that I REALLY want to do, should be.
And there still seems to be some confusion that this is somehow my personal time ON the clock, DURING working hours. It is not. When we're talking about side projects, picture someone like myself, finishing my normal work for the day, shutting down my computer, and walking out of the building. Then I walk back in of my own free will, on my own free time, and turn my computer back on. This is NOT Flex time within working hours. This is PERSONAL OFF THE CLOCK TIME.
As much as I love to be bribed with bacon and chocolate, this goes right back to Overjustification. You will never, ever, ever, not in a million years, be able to dictate what someone is passionate about. No matter how passionate you yourself are, you cannot tell someone else to join your love for that thing. They have to find it themselves.
I personally am not looking for any 'over-justified passion' when it comes to the aforementioned quibbles some of us have with what we believe are defective parts of the game...
Just a bit of reasonably bribed embellishment, that takes into account that the problems actually exist and are therefore on ANYBODY's list of important things to be taken care of...
SOON... ???
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I agree with this. I'm not trying to sound like a slave driver. But, imagine what a 3rd-party efficiency expert would say.
That's just the thing, by merely prioritizing correctly and COMMITTING to getting something done you don't need to be a slave driver. Instead Cryptic seems to suffer from constant shifts in priority that utilize almost all the employees.
This is silly. Every successful artist has a patron. The patron wants results. And we're not dealing with a portrait of the Pope.
If you are getting paid to do a job, then you have a job to do. I've made about 100 maps in my decade-long fanboy career as a modder. Do I take some kind of artistic pride in the end result? Sure.
It doesn't change the fact that it's a lot of stupid grunt work that demands me to stay focused on the task at hand, which is usually a crazy, repetitive, and annoying task.
If I was paid to do that grunt work, then I'd have grunt work to do, not feel somehow free to be "inspired" by watching TNG on my patron's bill.
What you are feeling is pride in craftsmanship, a close relative of art. Most successful artists became so in spite of their patrons, not because of them. Through history, some of the best paintings were painted by either a) artists that did them as a side project, not to "pay the rent", or b) artists who had already gotten recognition based on work done either without a patron, or as a side project, and thereby gaining the respect required to be given absolute freedom by the patron.
Google, as mentioned before, recognices this truth, and that's why the 20% have given so many awsome results.
I want to thank tacofangs for his replies in this thread, I think they have been some of the best, detailed information we've had yet about the inner workings of Cryptic.
I also agree with your stance that nothing should be mentioned of side projects, until they are for sure going to be put in-game, and nearing completion. Only main projects should be divulged, and keep side-projects private, until they are ready to be put in-game.
3 years playing this game, and it starts to get to you when projects get implemented in-game, but are never finished.
Still haven't seen an example of an unfinished side project.
By and large the side projects I'm aware of are all pretty finished if they're live. I know "Hearts and Minds" was one. I think weapons holstering was another. Any unfinished side projects (Tactical and Science androids?) don't get included if they aren't finished.
MAIN projects get labeled "good enough" and sent live all the time. And that's because waiting until things are bug free is no way to run an MMO.
I think side projects are generally pretty finished when they go live though.
That's just the thing, by merely prioritizing correctly and COMMITTING to getting something done you don't need to be a slave driver. Instead Cryptic seems to suffer from constant shifts in priority that utilize almost all the employees.
BINGO!!!
We all had to learn to walk before we could learn to run......but it seems Crypitc not only are having major problems with walking, but have been trying and roller skate on the way home. lol
Well, I suppose I should chime in sense this thread is based on my question in the ask cryptic. I agree with the OP and the majority of the people that posted here. Dan's answer shows a major gap in the development of the game. He probably doesn't see it, which I don't fault him for, but we (the players) can, and most of them are right here in this thread.
kobayashlmaru, I'm so happy you pulled out Dan's response on the 700-day android for me. I remember him saying it but just didn't have a chance to dig back and find where he had said it. Up until this "side project first came out (and it was from a player, not a dev) every single time a dev mentioned the android varients, it was talked about like it was an offical project. The WoK uniform revamps we had been told was done and the dev that said it was surprised it wasn't rolled into the game yet. The First Officer and Department Heads, we were told those were part of the DOff system and would be rolled in shortly after the DOff system went life. We were given the option to asign token department heads as a teaser. These show (at least to me) that Dan's answer to my question was just him covering up. Any time something falls to the wayside it's going to get chalked up to "it was a side project".
My biggest problem is that the devs have grand visions but they are all disjointed with nobody managing them (I am sorry Dan, I do have a lot of respect for you and happy that you're back because you do really seem to care) and so the only things that get put in are the money makers (the lockboxes) and a token piece here and there. All of the things I mentioned in my question are things that players have been asking for.. In the case of the Wrath of Khan uniforms, that's something we've been asking for sense day 1. Instead of working on several big ticket items. Work on 1 or 2 at a time with several smaller tickets getting pushed out to tide us over. Once one of the big tickets is done and pushed out work on another while still keeping one of 2 people working on the smaller things that players are asking for here on the boards.
I won't put all the critisim on the devs though, we deserve a fair share of it as well. We're little children, we all know it, we see something and we want it and sometimes when we get something we want, we want more. On occasion a dev will see this and will try and get it to us. That's great, I love that we have such dedicated devs that want to get us what we want. They are like children too, in a respect, because they want to get attention and so they tell us what they are doing. Then back to us being the children, we see this and now we see it as really happening and take that it's an offical project. We can't see the difference between what is offical and what is a pet project. It's not the devs fault, it's not our fault, it just is.
When I was in the miliary the shop I worked on would have teams set aside to work the big projects when they were in and kept a small team of only 2 or 3 people to work on the small projects so that the bigger projects can get the major focus with nothing getting neglected. This is the idea that needs to be done in the studio.
Lastly, I want to thank Taco for being brave enough in replying to this thread. Over my many years I've seen more then a few games get killed by threads just like this one. The devs get burned out and frustrated and leave... I would hate to see that happen here. I've played about 75% of the MMOs sense Ashron's Call and the orginal Everquest. I love STO, this and City of Heros are the only two I've ever consistently come back to and have always looked forward to updates too. I'd hate to see any of the devs leave because of this thread or another like it because they all really do a good job (in my opinion).
PS: Please, I apoligize for how disjointed this post may be. I read 7 of 9 (weird!) pages before going to work last night only to work a 12 hour shift and come back to 14 pages! I just finished reading them and now my eyes are as tired as I am......
As much as I love to be bribed with bacon and chocolate, this goes right back to Overjustification. You will never, ever, ever, not in a million years, be able to dictate what someone is passionate about. No matter how passionate you yourself are, you cannot tell someone else to join your love for that thing. They have to find it themselves.
Thats not true. There is a whole area of mature entertainment designed to do just this.
They, through not so tender ministrations, will tell you what to love, obey and how good you are at it or there will be disciplinary actions taken.
ok,ok, regardless of how well you do anything there is always the "discipline"
Speaking as a newly business student, propaganda is overrated.
The goal of marketing is to create substitute good relationships between your product and one of established high marginal benefit. If the relationship holds, you have added social value to society. If the relationship doesn't hold, there are externalities that you will eventually have to pay.
Talking about the social value of buying junk, holy TRIBBLE I can't even remember the time I was that much in the dark, I am guessing 1987
As for the video, I am sure you know more than noam chomsky but if you are really able to convince yourself not a single person in power in the history of the planet ever manipulated the population hey go for it, I am sure there is a psychological advantage to being in the dark just I can't help someone that far gone. Ignorance is bliss ?
And actually you are the main target for it since you swallow it all raw :rolleyes:
I?m sorry to say his answer/excuse for why something?s don?t get done is crazy. Maybe I am just to simple minded;) But I do own my own company... No scratch that its to small to be a company its just me. wife, one employee, my kids. Its a 12 year 2 photo studios not a "company" But I am a 35 year old consumer. I have never heard a company make a promises only to come back when its not done and then say it was not our plan but a plan of someone that worked for us.
If you work for a company you represent that company. If you work for a company and hop on chat with that special chat color or on a forum with that special forum ID and say this is getting done. Then you are speaking for that company,
Lets put it this way... A guy that works for...... FORD post online that they are coming out in 2 weeks at all dealers a pink flying car. No correction on fords site. So people drive far and wide to buy that ford pink flying car! After 3 day delays of people asking where is that groovy car?? Ford then post of the website "that was not ford promises" That was a side project that a former employee was working on. So go home nothing to see. Same as if Wendy?s promises a new burger or what not.
YOUR COMPANY EMPLOYESS represent you when they post on a forum or a interview or a chat. That?s fact. To say "oh!" that?s not our company that made the promises when something fails to happen is passing the blame. I dare say of my 35+ year of life I have never seen a business make a statement like what you made. It kills all confidence in your product. Why should I listen to you??? You left once already. I like ya I really do but lets say you leave again. Does that mean dstaul that everything you said the other day means nothing when you leave? Leave or stay what you say in the past should be solid the day after you left.
Be honest and say hey! we decided not to mess with the project anymore.. That would be madding to a lot but still at least it does not kill all credibility in the company as you did by saying it was never us. If these employees ?studio team? Mods, reps what not don?t represent you then they should be told to say nothing on the forums, chat, and interviews.
It's all about priorities. Some of these projects were offduty projects that devs did in their spare time. Forcing devs to do these projects means that their side projects are delayed or important projects are delayed.
Say Dev 1 has this side project with only 5 hours left to do before it is ready. Dev 1 leaves resulting in Dev 2 to finish the project. Dev 2 has to understand what the side project is about and how to accomplish it. Now it takes 20 hours to finish the project. Dev 2 already has their workload to do and their side projects to do. Things aren't as simple as get er done.
Lol, Cryptic + Priority = Misnomer. Surely you've realized that by now.
Talking about the social value of buying junk, holy TRIBBLE I can't even remember the time I was that much in the dark, I am guessing 1987
As for the video, I am sure you know more than noam chomsky but if you are really able to convince yourself not a single person in power in the history of the planet ever manipulated the population hey go for it, I am sure there is a psychological advantage to being in the dark just I can't help someone that far gone. Ignorance is bliss ?
And actually you are the main target for it since you swallow it all raw :rolleyes:
In an economic sense, everything has social value. Nothing is junk if anybody wants it.
Lets put it this way... A guy that works for...... FORD post online that they are coming out in 2 weeks at all dealers a pink flying car. No correction on fords site. So people drive far and wide to buy that ford pink flying car! After 3 day delays of people asking where is that groovy car?? Ford then post of the website "that was not ford promises" That was a side project that a former employee was working on. So go home nothing to see. Same as if Wendy?s promises a new burger or what not.
YOUR COMPANY EMPLOYESS represent you when they post on a forum or a interview or a chat. That?s fact. To say "oh!" that?s not our company that made the promises when something fails to happen is passing the blame. I dare say of my 35+ year of life I have never seen a business make a statement like what you made. It kills all confidence in your product. Why should I listen to you??? You left once already. I like ya I really do but lets say you leave again. Does that mean dstaul that everything you said the other day means nothing when you leave? Leave or stay what you say in the past should be solid the day after you left.
Ford is industrial sector.
Games are closer to creative sector. That means employees have a high level of autonomy and it also means massive changes whenever anyone leaves, particularly with small creative firm.
You can't tell, for instance, that NBC's Community will hold to ALL of showrunner Dan Harmon's plans now that Harmon is gone.
Scott Snyder writes Batman comics. If he gets replaced, the plans change. Stories may get truncated or omitted. If he leaves without telling anyone his plans, they can't even TRY to follow them. Now, odds are that it won't totally change the big company crossover, Trinity War. But it might if Scott Lobdell takes over and kills off Batman. And if Dan Didio and Bob Harras, the editors, leave, the company crossover could be nixed by the new guy, which could change Scott Snyder's plans.
When you buy something from a creative firm, you buy it for what it is at time of purchase, not what it may become, what its value is relative to something six months from now, what you want it to be, or what the guy who designed it thinks it will be. Plans change, sometimes more than once a day. Look at what it is, when it's offered. Decide if you want what it is right then.
NEVER INVEST IN THE FUTURE with an entertainment product. Buy in the moment or not at all... and there's no sin in not buying at all.
Wow. I admit that I don't know much about the industry. But I do have a job. A lot of us do. Probably every one of us have schedules and expectations to meet. We are judged on our productivity. When we fail, there are consequences. It's not something we can quietly sweep under the rub during the 3 hours a day when we're allowed to work on secret projects like farmville.
lol... nicely said.
I get the impression there are some very young people working on this game. If it's standard practice to allow people to do whatever they want on their "own time" for the company then it should be required for them to keep that to themselves. It's much better to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed when once again, something said isn't delivered.
I like to know what's happening as much as anyone, but accurate information is much better than devs trying to increase their popularity points with the dev worshipers on the forums.
First Officer and Department Heads side projects???? Both had been requested for years. Then, a year ago, it was stated by both dev and management that the FO/DH was put on hold for the Doff system. The explaination was given that the Doff system was the basic foundation for the FO/DH. It was stated that the FO/DH would come out shortly after the Doff system. Then, it was said that the FO/DH did not make it in game because an employee went elsewhere. As a result, the FO/DH was not on the schedule. However, it would be coming when a new employee could take over and was trained.
Now, the FO/DH is placed on hold again for an undetermined amount of time because someone else left. Not only did FO/DH get pushed back again for lack of employee reasons, it is being called a "side project," rather than a scheduled official project, of the outgoing employee. To me, the Doff system will remain unfinished in my eyes due to the fact that it was suppose to be the foundation for the FO/DH.
I hold an AA in business, a BBA in Accounting, and a Master of Accounting degrees. I am currently finishing up another degree program called a Master of Taxation. I understand both the business and public relations side of a game development company. Therefore, I know that: once a foundation is put in place into any product, there is a "common sense" expectation the rest of the item would be built.
For example:
A reasonable person with "common sense" would understand the cement foundation and pipes for a house have to be laid as part of initial construction. Then, the construction company goes to the property owner saying that the rest of the house can not be built because an employee moved on to somewhere else. When the customer keeps asking about the eta on the house, the construction company states that the house was only a "side project" and not an official scheduled project. Therefore, the house may or may not be completed in the future. Not only is that bad business, it also degrades the public's perception of the construction company. The construction company ends up losing potential and current customers. Eventually, the business is shut down due to a lack of income.
In an economic sense, everything has social value. Nothing is junk if anybody wants it.
I'd say those 2 statements have zero meaning what so ever, just words put together without meaning.
Everything has social value nothing is junk ? Say again ? What does that even mean, and you went to school for what exactly
/edit
Also the debate is you saying you can't make people think something or manipulate their emotions on any level.
I like how you threw the word "economics" in there randomly like it's supposed to hold an argument in itself because it's such a fancy word
However, like I said, if you on a personal level have total faith in any system, company or institution that ever were and is, it's probably great for you on a personal level to be that naive, albeit I'd argue it's crazily infantile and unintelligent and assuming you are an adult I don't see you ever becoming intelligent on any level.
But hey if you are happy right what does it matter
And yet they both cost the customers money. People want answers, commercial art does not a pass. In the case of a product like a game that makes players invested and loath to leave the negative effects may not be felt right away, but I certainly expect that a lot of the negative baggage Cryptic's accumulated over the last few years will be felt by NW. I know I won't touch it and will advise all my friends and acquaintances with the way Cryptic has done things in the past if they ever express an interest in it. That's not from malice, but i'd feel pretty awful if I didn't warn someone else properly.
It's much better to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed when once again, something said isn't delivered.
I like to know what's happening as much as anyone, but accurate information is much better than devs trying to increase their popularity points with the dev worshipers on the forums.
I still hold to the idea that now and then they need hype and go around the cubicles asking people what little extra they're working on so they have something to show because their regular releases take so long.
Comments
You're dead wrong on an operational basis and you're teetering on morally out of line in my book.
I hesitate to talk about gamer entitlement because I think gets used to defend bad development choices. And I think a level of snark and cynicism on the forums can be a good thing.
But you've completely undercut everything you ever said about quality story development in this thread.
You clearly know how to critique and find holes... and I found your harsh mission reviews informative. But I don't think you know the first thing about nurturing creativity if that's your attitude.
I think the friggin' WORST company could use flex time, better internal feedback channels, and solid brainstorming. It's not what you "earn" by being the best. It's how you get good and stay good.
That's honestly the easiest way for PWE to take care of this problem. And I'm really glad its not what we were told. Everyone angry for some reason needs to step back and relaize how worse of a response we could have gotten and be a bit glad Dan did give us a response.
I wouldn't mind this if they also said in the same line that they are massively expanding their departments so as to upscale their content creation power. More devs = more paid manhours = more content produced (hopefully). This also costs more, but that's why the game went F2P, because it makes that much more money than subs.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
True, I think we should be glad the Devs are as personable as they are. Sure it can lead to some interesting situations *Cough*thislastMay*Cough*. But hey, we're all human, we say stupid things all the time, I can't really fault the Devs for saying stuff like that too every once and a while.
The thing is, is that even though they aren't willing to follow the community on everything, (Lockboxes are still around aren't they? :P) but there is a laundry list of things that have been included at the communities request.
However, personal things, I don't like to advertise until I'm sure they'll turn into something. There are plenty of test projects that don't go anywhere. Plus I have some kind of hobby ADD, where I'm intensely interested in something for a while, then it fades and I pick something else up for a bit, then back to the first again. So if I went off raving about the cool new thing I'm doing, everytime there's a cool new thing I'm doing, everyone would be sick of it by now since maybe 1/10th of them get done. Can't help it, just who I am, so I prefer to stay quiet about them.
WHO TOLD YOU ABOUT MY DANCING MUGATO!??!!!
I'm not sure that I have anything in STO like that, but in Champions, the Powerhouse Revamp I mentioned was started entirely by me. I had been involved when we had been forced to re-organize it previously, and it was done entirely for performance, and never felt right. I saw things that could be done to improve the whole thing, and turn it into a more social space, including other aspects of the game without undermining them. So, I started building. And I hadn't planned to show anyone what I was up to until I had more done, but a bubble opened in my schedule, so I talked to my lead and pitched my idea for it, and they let me run with it. It still didn't get finished, there's a whole wing left to do, but I got pulled to STO before I could do it.
Admittedly (ideally), those things should not be in the game. But look at the above example of the Champions Power House. Started as a side project, moved to a real project, I get pulled off the team and put on another team before I consider it done. No one is scheduled to finish it to my knowledge. Maybe someday it will be, but for now, I think (hope) that Champions is far better off with what was finished being put into the game, than if we'd just dumped it all when I got moved to STO.
I understand your frustration, and agree that things need to be finished to a passable standard before being implemented. But when I'm saying we're working on side projects, MOST of those should be invisible to players. We have test folders for maps and assets, which are specifically excluded from all builds, that's where we do our projects until they're ready for showtime, then things get moved into proper folders.
I don't want to put words in Dan's mouth, but I don't think he meant to qualify all of those things AS side projects. I believe he was just speaking of Projects, and Side Projects in general, and the trouble that comes with someone responsible for said project leaving suddenly. I don't think I was around when the 700 Day vet thing was being done, but the 1000 Day ship is definitely on the schedule and being worked on by multiple people during work hours.
Sure, time could be wasted. But it's MY personal time. If I choose to waste it, so be it. No one should be telling me what I should and shouldn't do with my own personal time, or what priority this thing that I REALLY want to do, should be.
And there still seems to be some confusion that this is somehow my personal time ON the clock, DURING working hours. It is not. When we're talking about side projects, picture someone like myself, finishing my normal work for the day, shutting down my computer, and walking out of the building. Then I walk back in of my own free will, on my own free time, and turn my computer back on. This is NOT Flex time within working hours. This is PERSONAL OFF THE CLOCK TIME.
As much as I love to be bribed with bacon and chocolate, this goes right back to Overjustification. You will never, ever, ever, not in a million years, be able to dictate what someone is passionate about. No matter how passionate you yourself are, you cannot tell someone else to join your love for that thing. They have to find it themselves.
Wait wait wait...I thought your side project was paving the way for world domination by Taco Overlords?
I swore it was something to take down the Kellogg Empire instead.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
The 700 day vet thing would have been worked on around a year ago since the 700 day veteran reward was released in December 2011 or January 2012. The 700 day veteran reward was an android bridge officer so having the male engineer android was all that was needed to finish the 700 day veteran reward project. However, some dev wanted to provide options since not everyone wants a male engineer android. So the extra options for the 700 day veteran reward was the side project of a dev. However, I don't know if dstahl put it on jheinig's official projects list or if it is still a side project. However, he is the dev that is assumed to be working on the optional android bridge officers and has been on medical leave for a while which might have delayed this project from being completed.
I also agree with your stance that nothing should be mentioned of side projects, until they are for sure going to be put in-game, and nearing completion. Only main projects should be divulged, and keep side-projects private, until they are ready to be put in-game.
3 years playing this game, and it starts to get to you when projects get implemented in-game, but are never finished.
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Um dude I'm just asking if their exchange search could please work properly. I'm not sure what you are responding to here.
I personally am not looking for any 'over-justified passion' when it comes to the aforementioned quibbles some of us have with what we believe are defective parts of the game...
Just a bit of reasonably bribed embellishment, that takes into account that the problems actually exist and are therefore on ANYBODY's list of important things to be taken care of...
SOON... ???
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
That's just the thing, by merely prioritizing correctly and COMMITTING to getting something done you don't need to be a slave driver. Instead Cryptic seems to suffer from constant shifts in priority that utilize almost all the employees.
What you are feeling is pride in craftsmanship, a close relative of art. Most successful artists became so in spite of their patrons, not because of them. Through history, some of the best paintings were painted by either a) artists that did them as a side project, not to "pay the rent", or b) artists who had already gotten recognition based on work done either without a patron, or as a side project, and thereby gaining the respect required to be given absolute freedom by the patron.
Google, as mentioned before, recognices this truth, and that's why the 20% have given so many awsome results.
Still haven't seen an example of an unfinished side project.
By and large the side projects I'm aware of are all pretty finished if they're live. I know "Hearts and Minds" was one. I think weapons holstering was another. Any unfinished side projects (Tactical and Science androids?) don't get included if they aren't finished.
MAIN projects get labeled "good enough" and sent live all the time. And that's because waiting until things are bug free is no way to run an MMO.
I think side projects are generally pretty finished when they go live though.
I don't see what the exchange search has to do with side projects.
It's a bug. Bugs like these happen and get fixed on scheduled time.
BINGO!!!
We all had to learn to walk before we could learn to run......but it seems Crypitc not only are having major problems with walking, but have been trying and roller skate on the way home. lol
kobayashlmaru, I'm so happy you pulled out Dan's response on the 700-day android for me. I remember him saying it but just didn't have a chance to dig back and find where he had said it. Up until this "side project first came out (and it was from a player, not a dev) every single time a dev mentioned the android varients, it was talked about like it was an offical project. The WoK uniform revamps we had been told was done and the dev that said it was surprised it wasn't rolled into the game yet. The First Officer and Department Heads, we were told those were part of the DOff system and would be rolled in shortly after the DOff system went life. We were given the option to asign token department heads as a teaser. These show (at least to me) that Dan's answer to my question was just him covering up. Any time something falls to the wayside it's going to get chalked up to "it was a side project".
My biggest problem is that the devs have grand visions but they are all disjointed with nobody managing them (I am sorry Dan, I do have a lot of respect for you and happy that you're back because you do really seem to care) and so the only things that get put in are the money makers (the lockboxes) and a token piece here and there. All of the things I mentioned in my question are things that players have been asking for.. In the case of the Wrath of Khan uniforms, that's something we've been asking for sense day 1. Instead of working on several big ticket items. Work on 1 or 2 at a time with several smaller tickets getting pushed out to tide us over. Once one of the big tickets is done and pushed out work on another while still keeping one of 2 people working on the smaller things that players are asking for here on the boards.
I won't put all the critisim on the devs though, we deserve a fair share of it as well. We're little children, we all know it, we see something and we want it and sometimes when we get something we want, we want more. On occasion a dev will see this and will try and get it to us. That's great, I love that we have such dedicated devs that want to get us what we want. They are like children too, in a respect, because they want to get attention and so they tell us what they are doing. Then back to us being the children, we see this and now we see it as really happening and take that it's an offical project. We can't see the difference between what is offical and what is a pet project. It's not the devs fault, it's not our fault, it just is.
When I was in the miliary the shop I worked on would have teams set aside to work the big projects when they were in and kept a small team of only 2 or 3 people to work on the small projects so that the bigger projects can get the major focus with nothing getting neglected. This is the idea that needs to be done in the studio.
Lastly, I want to thank Taco for being brave enough in replying to this thread. Over my many years I've seen more then a few games get killed by threads just like this one. The devs get burned out and frustrated and leave... I would hate to see that happen here. I've played about 75% of the MMOs sense Ashron's Call and the orginal Everquest. I love STO, this and City of Heros are the only two I've ever consistently come back to and have always looked forward to updates too. I'd hate to see any of the devs leave because of this thread or another like it because they all really do a good job (in my opinion).
PS: Please, I apoligize for how disjointed this post may be. I read 7 of 9 (weird!) pages before going to work last night only to work a 12 hour shift and come back to 14 pages! I just finished reading them and now my eyes are as tired as I am......
Thats not true. There is a whole area of mature entertainment designed to do just this.
They, through not so tender ministrations, will tell you what to love, obey and how good you are at it or there will be disciplinary actions taken.
ok,ok, regardless of how well you do anything there is always the "discipline"
R.I.P
Passion will now commence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Ibtp4xjAY
Do you even school
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci_1Ghk0CIc
Eh.
Speaking as a newly business student, propaganda is overrated.
The goal of marketing is to create substitute good relationships between your product and one of established high marginal benefit. If the relationship holds, you have added social value to society. If the relationship doesn't hold, there are externalities that you will eventually have to pay.
Changing people's minds isn't brainwashing.
As for the video, I am sure you know more than noam chomsky but if you are really able to convince yourself not a single person in power in the history of the planet ever manipulated the population hey go for it, I am sure there is a psychological advantage to being in the dark just I can't help someone that far gone. Ignorance is bliss ?
And actually you are the main target for it since you swallow it all raw :rolleyes:
If you work for a company you represent that company. If you work for a company and hop on chat with that special chat color or on a forum with that special forum ID and say this is getting done. Then you are speaking for that company,
Lets put it this way... A guy that works for...... FORD post online that they are coming out in 2 weeks at all dealers a pink flying car. No correction on fords site. So people drive far and wide to buy that ford pink flying car! After 3 day delays of people asking where is that groovy car?? Ford then post of the website "that was not ford promises" That was a side project that a former employee was working on. So go home nothing to see. Same as if Wendy?s promises a new burger or what not.
YOUR COMPANY EMPLOYESS represent you when they post on a forum or a interview or a chat. That?s fact. To say "oh!" that?s not our company that made the promises when something fails to happen is passing the blame. I dare say of my 35+ year of life I have never seen a business make a statement like what you made. It kills all confidence in your product. Why should I listen to you??? You left once already. I like ya I really do but lets say you leave again. Does that mean dstaul that everything you said the other day means nothing when you leave? Leave or stay what you say in the past should be solid the day after you left.
Be honest and say hey! we decided not to mess with the project anymore.. That would be madding to a lot but still at least it does not kill all credibility in the company as you did by saying it was never us. If these employees ?studio team? Mods, reps what not don?t represent you then they should be told to say nothing on the forums, chat, and interviews.
Lol, Cryptic + Priority = Misnomer. Surely you've realized that by now.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
In an economic sense, everything has social value. Nothing is junk if anybody wants it.
Ford is industrial sector.
Games are closer to creative sector. That means employees have a high level of autonomy and it also means massive changes whenever anyone leaves, particularly with small creative firm.
You can't tell, for instance, that NBC's Community will hold to ALL of showrunner Dan Harmon's plans now that Harmon is gone.
Scott Snyder writes Batman comics. If he gets replaced, the plans change. Stories may get truncated or omitted. If he leaves without telling anyone his plans, they can't even TRY to follow them. Now, odds are that it won't totally change the big company crossover, Trinity War. But it might if Scott Lobdell takes over and kills off Batman. And if Dan Didio and Bob Harras, the editors, leave, the company crossover could be nixed by the new guy, which could change Scott Snyder's plans.
When you buy something from a creative firm, you buy it for what it is at time of purchase, not what it may become, what its value is relative to something six months from now, what you want it to be, or what the guy who designed it thinks it will be. Plans change, sometimes more than once a day. Look at what it is, when it's offered. Decide if you want what it is right then.
NEVER INVEST IN THE FUTURE with an entertainment product. Buy in the moment or not at all... and there's no sin in not buying at all.
lol... nicely said.
I get the impression there are some very young people working on this game. If it's standard practice to allow people to do whatever they want on their "own time" for the company then it should be required for them to keep that to themselves. It's much better to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed when once again, something said isn't delivered.
I like to know what's happening as much as anyone, but accurate information is much better than devs trying to increase their popularity points with the dev worshipers on the forums.
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
Now, the FO/DH is placed on hold again for an undetermined amount of time because someone else left. Not only did FO/DH get pushed back again for lack of employee reasons, it is being called a "side project," rather than a scheduled official project, of the outgoing employee. To me, the Doff system will remain unfinished in my eyes due to the fact that it was suppose to be the foundation for the FO/DH.
I hold an AA in business, a BBA in Accounting, and a Master of Accounting degrees. I am currently finishing up another degree program called a Master of Taxation. I understand both the business and public relations side of a game development company. Therefore, I know that: once a foundation is put in place into any product, there is a "common sense" expectation the rest of the item would be built.
For example:
A reasonable person with "common sense" would understand the cement foundation and pipes for a house have to be laid as part of initial construction. Then, the construction company goes to the property owner saying that the rest of the house can not be built because an employee moved on to somewhere else. When the customer keeps asking about the eta on the house, the construction company states that the house was only a "side project" and not an official scheduled project. Therefore, the house may or may not be completed in the future. Not only is that bad business, it also degrades the public's perception of the construction company. The construction company ends up losing potential and current customers. Eventually, the business is shut down due to a lack of income.
I'd say those 2 statements have zero meaning what so ever, just words put together without meaning.
Everything has social value nothing is junk ? Say again ? What does that even mean, and you went to school for what exactly
/edit
Also the debate is you saying you can't make people think something or manipulate their emotions on any level.
I like how you threw the word "economics" in there randomly like it's supposed to hold an argument in itself because it's such a fancy word
However, like I said, if you on a personal level have total faith in any system, company or institution that ever were and is, it's probably great for you on a personal level to be that naive, albeit I'd argue it's crazily infantile and unintelligent and assuming you are an adult I don't see you ever becoming intelligent on any level.
But hey if you are happy right what does it matter
And yet they both cost the customers money. People want answers, commercial art does not a pass. In the case of a product like a game that makes players invested and loath to leave the negative effects may not be felt right away, but I certainly expect that a lot of the negative baggage Cryptic's accumulated over the last few years will be felt by NW. I know I won't touch it and will advise all my friends and acquaintances with the way Cryptic has done things in the past if they ever express an interest in it. That's not from malice, but i'd feel pretty awful if I didn't warn someone else properly.
I still hold to the idea that now and then they need hype and go around the cubicles asking people what little extra they're working on so they have something to show because their regular releases take so long.