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How Can People Ask For SubNuc Doff Nerf?
freedumb4eva
Member Posts: 269
When healing is so overpowered????
What in God's name are players supposed to do without a SubNuc of some kind, or MANY KINDS to get around the type of healing that current ships are putting out????
It's not just the healing but also the STACKING mitigation, it is just getting ridiculous...
Either there are noobs who pop instantly or there are people getting stacked mitigation, (which are virtually impossible to kill w.o some kind of buff strip)... there seems to be no in between.
If I am the only one having this experience, then I apologize for over-reacting. However, these experiences of firing constantly against impenetrable shields are just tedious and kills the entire PVP game for me.
Also, I don't own any SubNuc doffs but good lord... I would really like to get some because without them there is just no getting through stacked mitigation from self, AND other teammates, (and possibly support craft.)
What in God's name are players supposed to do without a SubNuc of some kind, or MANY KINDS to get around the type of healing that current ships are putting out????
It's not just the healing but also the STACKING mitigation, it is just getting ridiculous...
Either there are noobs who pop instantly or there are people getting stacked mitigation, (which are virtually impossible to kill w.o some kind of buff strip)... there seems to be no in between.
If I am the only one having this experience, then I apologize for over-reacting. However, these experiences of firing constantly against impenetrable shields are just tedious and kills the entire PVP game for me.
Also, I don't own any SubNuc doffs but good lord... I would really like to get some because without them there is just no getting through stacked mitigation from self, AND other teammates, (and possibly support craft.)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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They are utterly degenerate in their design and implementation and do not expand or enhance PvP mechanically in any way, shape, or form. If healing is over the top, making a DOff everyone should use to counter it, one which greatly degrade's the usefulness of a Captain in a team composition, is not the right ****ing answer to the problem.
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JM2c.
Sub Nuc is required because buffs are insane and this shines in PVP. Without Sub Nuc, fights would last forever due to insane mitigation and healing. Therefore, Sub Nuc DOFF was added as a high end way to plow through stacked buffs, (for Tac Captains.) That is how I see it.
No the sub nuke doff was added pretty much at the launch of doffs. Its from the first batch of doffs... at that time some moronic dev thought a doff with a 2.5% chance to strip all buffs and stack to 3 would be a great idea. The community stood up then and said this is in fact very moronic. So they decided to smack them down to 1%... and the fact that they where pretty rare most everyone moved on to complain about more pressing matters.
Then they decided to have them drop like candy out of the cardy boxs... and now people are understandable annoyed about teams running around with 10+ doffs in a game.
They 100% remove skill from the game. They nuke all buffs not just defensive ones... if a team is focus firing the escorts with a bunch of these doffs they very are going to shut down any offense that team has... sounds like a good way to increase a teams defense to me... well unless the other side is packing 10+ doffs as well... at that point frankly the game is won by who ever lands the most procs... yay fun.
Borticus is looking over the doffs now, it has a nerf coming and frankly they deserve one.
Nerfing the sub nuc doff without tampering with the mitigation/heals in the game is ridiculous.
Then there is literally no chance of getting through heals/buffs without a sci on the team and waiting for the CD on sub nuc and hoping to alpha strike through twitch reactions of healers...
I guess PVP in STO just isn't for me then. It has become less about skill and more about who can remove buffs or who can apply the most buffs, imo.
The reason that the doff was added was likely due to the ridiculous heals and buffs that are available. There is no other recourse against them for Tactical Captains.
Then make a thread about what could be done to stop the overhealing in this game.
Or bring a science captain and actually work as a team.
Also keep in mind that a lot of the super healing is a result of the doff system as well. Brace for impact doff being the biggest offender.
A team full of sci 5 nukes or not is not ideal.
A team with 5 tacs is also not idea.
Engies... well they have some issues, having said that we often run a team with at least one engi. They are the one class that could use some work, having said that... the fact that a team doesn't need more then one isn't game breaking.
Yes go figure a good team in pvp would include all 3 classes... its crazy to think that every captain type has a role to play... and every ship type has a role to play. Man what was cryptic thinking with that design. lol
Honesty there are ways through mitigation that does not involve Sub nukes... its called team work. The only way to end up with resistance stacks is to get help from teammates... why is it so crazy to think that the counter to that is a team that controls and times there offensive buffs... and no I am not talking about 100% focus fire here. There was a time that all you had to do to win in STO pvp was focus fire... focus focus and focus. Frankly that is not how it works anymore... if your team is 5 guys shooting at one target... you will loose.
Honesty if you are not willing to adjust to the meta game... and build your teams to achieve victory. (which means not a bunch of tacs with crutch doffs)... well then yes you are correct this is the wrong game for you.
Very well said.
Teamwork is the most OP thing in STO.
And what about the players that aren't healboats and zombies? What about people flying BoPs who have dirty-fighting A-holes subnuking them left and right? What about people flying escorts but don't have the best-of-the-best equipment or skill, and thus are unable to tank nearly as well as the likes of, say, Jedi Master Yoda? If subnukes were only used against the people that 'needed' subnuking (escorts that inexplicably resist all attempts to blow them to cinders, while shredding enemies effortlessly), there might not be such a problem. As it is, it's being abused.
Also just a small point of contention with your argument.... last I checked it would still cost you around 60 million EC to grab 3 Nuke doffs... or $50-$60 wroth of zen to get 3 random pulls from the lockboxs..... yes they are more common then they where previously. However they are still not a new player with no gear solution to a gear driven game. (which frankly STO is NOT).
I leveled a new tac toon this week... with in 3 days... I went from level zero... to a end game escort with a 3 piece borg set and a mk xii maco shield. I spent aprox 2 mil ec out of my account bank to pick up a set of purple mk xi weapons... and some mk xi blue consoles. Thats it... done complete ready to end game pvp.
Frankly people complaining about gear in this game are so very far off the mark.
Discourage from teamwork, even further. What a wonderful idea. How about we also forbid the use of voice com and mod the chat window out of the game? This game is already full of Kirks, why not build it even further around them.
Know what, and this may sound totaly stupid in your mind, but how about we actually encourage teamwork? You know, make those poor pugs work together, make them aware of the funny fact, that there are usually 5 people on a team. We don't need to turn them into premades, but simple things like just paying attention to what happens around someones ego might be a good starting point.
As for the OPs question. I can't understand how someone considers it a good idea to move pvp from a player skill based system to a "whoever brings more proc chances" system. That's what SNB DOffs are, you bring more of them, you'll win. I'm sorry that you think your tac/escort is only viable with the tanking abilities of an engineer and the debuff abilities of a sci captain. We have different captain and ship classes, for me this sounds like a good hint that it is not the intention to allow 1 combination to do everything at once.
decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
They need to take something like the mirror mission idea... something that is a daily with lots of XP points... a training mission... That from levels 1-10 could teach basic team work... and even have text pop ups and perhaps even a couple voice overs to teach the basics... and from 10-20 it could teach how to target team mates with HEALS... ect ect...
Bottom line teach people how to you know work together... instead of thinking of ways to punish people that already do... such a silly mindset. Its a team game... hence people that work together as a team do better... wow what a realization.
The nuke doff is no counter its a game killer period.... Hopefuly when it is limited to 3 buffs tops it will make sense... cause right now it don't... it makes up for poorly designed teams... which is just plain bad game design. It would be like a knight in chess all of a sudden getting to move up an extra square cause it lands a DOFF proc. lol
Rather than having the SNB doff, something that has been complained about multiple times (understandably) lets look at the buffs, now there is a consensus among a large group of PvE'ers that Tac captain buffs are overpowered (certainly in relation to the other 2 sets) and you are complaining about superpowered healing, so we have a couple of questions to answer:
1: Why do we have overpowered tac skills?
We have overpowered tac skills for 2 reasons:
Reason 1: The games NPCs have too much health due to damage being too high
Reason 2: Superpowered healing
2: Why do we have superpowered healing?
Reason: Because of damage being too high because of overpowered tac buffs
So the root cause of both the reasons for having the SNB doff is overpowered Tac powers (by logical reasoning)
So, let's lower tac and healing buffs along with NPC health such that your tacs can do more damage than anyone else, arrange healing to counter this, but not to be so superpowered that 1 oddy can fend off 5 escorts without help make healing such that 1 Tac/Escort is balanced against 1 eng/cruiser but add another escort and the eng has a problem. once this is in play neither will be overpowered, then you can de-nerf science such that they remain balanced with the existing balance.
This sorts the buff issue and removes any need for the SNB doff
This might be hard for you to imagine... but the hero is the guy that keeps that escort rolling. Its the same in every MMO ever made Soph. Everyone jumps up and down about how over powered the DPS class is... of course the best DPS players are nothing and fold hard unless they are on the field with there support cast. Its MMO 101... its not broken and its working as it should. The real hero is the Sci that sets up the kills or the cruiser that allows the DPS guy and the Sci guy some breathing room to do there jobs.
(one thing I find funny... is that type of setup is completely 100% canon. How many times in the series do you see a galaxy class cruiser come rushing in an soak up all the enemy fire so the defiant can scoot by and get its guns on something... ect... it happens all over ds9 and on. The trek verse is pretty much designed as a MMO... there is nothing wrong with playing a support role when you do it right... franky escorts are as much support as the cruisers and sci ships.)
Again MMO 101 Playing to your classes role is always the way to go in these games. I get that there is a RP element here. (this isn't the only MMO with RP value) Yes PvP is about team work... PvP in every single game ever made is about team work... the only acception perhaps is deathmatch FPS games. Even those games all have team modes these days. No PvPing is not easy... however its up to Cryptic to make it accessible... dumbing it down and driving away the people that already like the good dynamic they have is not the way to go. The way to go is to encourage people to pvp... setup a ladder system... why not have things like a 1 hour a day Scramble team event... where no teams can enter the event que and the system could randamly create games... honesty if they rewarded it properly there would even be enough people qued that they could add intersting code that would say NOT create teams with all escorts or all cruises... but prefer to create teams with one cruiser one escort and sci. Yes cryptic needs to teach those new players how to TEAM. This is after all a MMO... the entire point is about playing WITH other people.
It should never be about who has more buffs... it should and is about who uses there buffs properly and at the right times. I will say that in some ways the game has to many buffs... plenty of boff skills could use longer cool downs. Having said that... once you get into the swing of pvp... it is a point counter point system right now... and honesty it works really really well if you have 2 teams of experienced players its hands down the best PvP system in the MMO world right now.... problem has always been Cryptic doesn't seem to get that and do a terrible job of getting new people into there PvP game.
The stacked healing/mitigation is too much, but solo mitigation is too minimal against high damage enemies.
It's ridiculous... so either you pop instantly, or you are unkillable, as I said. The ONLY solution is some kind of buff strip to kill the unkillables, but then solo targets pop even more quickly thanks to this BANDAID solution... THIS is the problem.
In World of WC, it was possible, but not recommended to PVP completely devoid of a healer on the team. In order to prevent targets from healing forever, mechanisms like Mortal Strike were added to the game, which would reduce healing that the target receives by a certain percentage.
This allowed DPSers to get through mitigation and heals placed on the target.
In this example of WoW, there was also buff stripping. This mechanism was deemed completely overpowered when it would remove all of a player's buffs and heals in one button press. Resists were added to each individual buff, and the Purge ability was limited to also removing only two buffs/heals at a time.
I am only using this example to illustrate what the development of a game looks like when actual effort is put in to trying to tackle the, "Unkillable healer/healer's target," in a game. It is 100% true that other games have met and tackled this issue as well.
What balancing has this game had around the issue? SNB removes ALL buffs/heals from a target and puts their abilities on cooldown. Overpowered. Then, since Sci captains are hard to find, a DOFF was added so that others had the ability to finally kill targets with stacking mitigation and heals... Overpowered...
With the amount of money that this development company is making off of us poor fools, I refuse to believe that nothing can be done, or that a team cannot be assigned to this issue... NOT JUST ONE PERSON!!!!
In conclusion, instead of adjusting healing and mitigation rates, or coming up with a more clever way to get around this issue that might be more balanced, whatever that may be, the choice was made to add the very same overpowered mechanism to another area of the game making it very un-compelling for me, imo, to enter PVP.
Absolutely what Corsair114 stated. Right there.
I agree, this is not the solution to the problem. I have illustrated the problem more accurately in my last post.
This was a poor effort to getting around an issue and now it has come to bite us all in the community.
Surely more effort and more assets can be put in to PVP, but yeh, at this moment I could care less.
One thing that I do find ironic is that I brought this issue up long ago. I was then attacked on these forums for even mentioning that SNB had issues and that healing and mitigation needed to be looked at... and here we are like a year later and the SNB issue has multiplied as well as the healing/mitigation issue.
You intentions are all valid. But, the SNB Doffs are not contributing anything positive to pvp. They merely exasperate the problem.
The doffs and balance in most areas of the "pvp game" are problematic at best.
The classes are too few, the abilities too narrow and in combination only result in cookie-cutter builds.
The devs fix one problem only to unbalance something else, and the cycle repeats itself.
It is too easy and quick to spot the next, sure "thing" that is to be OP in the game and players enmass to respec for it.
Also, look at a game like EVE. There is so much happening in terms of weapons, consoles, abilities, ship types etc etc that to find that perfect build is arduous and something to feel proud of achieving.
In STO, it has nothing to do with that. Anyone, irrespective of skill becomes a hero.
You fix healing balance in this game by fixing healing balance in this game. While i agree that healing in this game needs a balance pass, introducing one broken mechanic to fix another broken mechanic isnt the solution.
If a nerf to doffs (which you apparently don't even own) is all its going to take for you to stomp your feet and quit pvp'ing...then I guess we won't be seeing you around then...
That is exactly my point, those people asking for a nerf to SubNuc DOFF without asking for a look at the OVERALL PROBLEM are just causing more people to not be able to kill the unkillable targets.
You are 100% missing the point and probably not reading my posts then.
Nerfing the SubNuc DOFFS is nerfing the bandaid to the healing/mitigation problem thereby causing the original problem to inflate.
SubNuc DOFF cannot and should not be nerfed until healing has been balanced BECAUSE SubNuc DOFF was inserted into the game to bandaid the healing issue.
The side-effect is that targets who are not being bombarded with healing and mitigation are helpless and just get aced.
SubNuc DOFF was NOT the solution to be added to PVP. Healing and mitigation in PVP is out of control, but probably balanced against ELITE BORG STF... this is a major problem and the BANDAID SubNuc DOFF does not fix it.
Yet, nerfing the bandaid makes the problem in PVP worse.
I would really like to know with all of the money put in to this game, WHY isn't there a larger effort to bring balance to PVP... the only conclusion, there is no DESIRE to do so... in which case /quit PVP
PVP in STO seems to have been, from the onset, something tacked onto a specifically PVE oriented game that pacifies the potential outcry of, "WHAT!? No PVP???" This leads to my outcry of, "WHAT!? This is your idea of PVP???"
Has that ever been in doubt though?
Yes, SNB doff doesnt add any value to PvP. Players stay TRIBBLE, pugs stay TRIBBLE.
you really believe that? So they made a subnuc doff and couldnt simply adjust the healing in this game a bit? Cmon. Rediculous statement.
Its a solution yes, but a very crappy solution, no crappy PvPer really gets better by using them, pvp is more then equipping effective chance based factors to your ship in order to gain yourself a nice advantage.
Adding anything chance based with such a powerful effect (simply adding the best science captain skill to your build at random activation) is just stupid and won't add to the value and integrity of PvP, there could've been other solutions.
there was that season when they added all the global cooldowns.... that was quite the cocktease.
Well said. You can't make a good PvP pilot/build by throwing every new console and Doff onto a ship and face smashing the keyboard repeatedly.
Husanakx has it here: use superior tactics or lose. Not at all simple, but well worth the effort. If someone can't get past not being able to mash spacebar the hardest to win, they either need better training or don't belong in STO PvP.