There is no such think as tanking in any PvP in any Game ever made.
HDT is Trinity in PvE
HDD Healing DPS Debuff... is Trinity in MMO PvP...
If you don't understand that then yes you don't understand MMO pvp.
PS we have run teams with ZERO sci before... and no we didn't loose yes it took longer to win... but no we didn't loose.
Subnuke Alpha MW... are captain skills that allow there classes to fill there roll... Ultimate dmg buff... Ultimate Debuff... Ultimate Oh no button so you can focus on healing team mates... THOSE are the captain skills that allow players to play there classes... Saying you can't win with out sub nuke so healings borked is as silly as saying you can't kill anyone with out alpha so healings broken... or you can't survive solo alpha firing with out rotate shields and MW... so dmg is broken.
There is nothing wrong with healing... yes its high... so is dmg however. YES its possible to power through team healing with out subnukes... still nukes are part of the game and there is no reason to not run with 1-2 sci on a team... its what the darn class is designed to do.
There is no such thing as PVP Holy Trinity, that's not even a term... you just made it up...
I honestly don't care when or how often your team wins or loses... Battles that last for 40 mins to 1 hour are evidence of broken game mechanics that are not balanced and suited for PVP. Way to not fall asleep during that game, though.
No, it's not possible to get through a good team's heals/mitigation without buff strip of some kind. Unless of course you are talking about those hours long battles where one side just falls asleep at the keyboard and you killed a target because everyone's eyes were falling out.
Before the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF the main problem that I am illustrating still existed: Targets with stacked healing and mitigation on them cannot be killed. Target switching will not help against good teams ready for this tactic. The only solution, then, is buff stripping via Sub Nuc. Yes, I would 100% say that Sad Pandas did not win against a solid group without Sub Nuc prior to the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF.
what your are saying makes no sence. then how do any teams win wtf? everyone can do what you are drcribing. since tsi and pandas do kill eachother with out sub doff ask how are they doing it.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
Before the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF the main problem that I am illustrating still existed: Targets with stacked healing and mitigation on them cannot be killed. Target switching will not help against good teams ready for this tactic. The only solution, then, is buff stripping via Sub Nuc. Yes, I would 100% say that Sad Pandas did not win against a solid group without Sub Nuc prior to the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF.
BS.
I have NEVER EVER met a team we where not able to take down with simple target rotation.
Critz has won plenty of games vs good teams with ZERO nukes and ZERO doffs. It takes longer but its not impossible... and yes after the win one of us likely switched to a sci toon... cause ya who wants to be in the same match for over an hour.
Having said that NO ONE that isn't going to bring at least one Sci Toon is Deserving of a win...
Arguing for Borked doffs cause you can't win if you don't bring a proper team is a terrible arguement.
YES winning with out at least one sci captain on your team is really hard....
I have NEVER EVER met a team we where not able to take down with simple target rotation.
Critz has won plenty of games vs good teams with ZERO nukes and ZERO doffs. It takes longer but its not impossible... and yes after the win one of us likely switched to a sci toon... cause ya who wants to be in the same match for over an hour.
Having said that NO ONE that isn't going to bring at least one Sci Toon is Deserving of a win...
Arguing for Borked doffs cause you can't win if you don't bring a proper team is a terrible arguement.
YES winning with out at least one sci captain on your team is really hard....
How is that broken again ?
Who is arguing for borked DOFFs? Reading comprehension, you has it?
There is no such thing as PVP Holy Trinity, that's not even a term... you just made it up...
I honestly don't care when or how often your team wins or loses... Battles that last for 40 mins to 1 hour are evidence of broken game mechanics that are not balanced and suited for PVP. Way to not fall asleep during that game, though.
No, it's not possible to get through a good team's heals/mitigation without buff strip of some kind. Unless of course you are talking about those hours long battles where one side just falls asleep at the keyboard and you killed a target because everyone's eyes were falling out.
No one in a good 30min+ match is complaining.
If you have played a bunch of other mmos as you claim you would understand this simple fact. Most games PvP is so fast paced that it drives away most new players. People don't like to spawn and get killed 20 seconds later. That is the reality of most MMO pvp... there are very few games that have the balance that STO has... balance where 2 teams of high skill can push a game to 30min+ by countering. STO is fairly unique in that regard... and yes most of us consider that a + not proff that something is broken... broken would be I load up a team of 5 tac scorts with 3 nuke doffs each... and roll everyone for lulz.
If you have played a bunch of other mmos as you claim you would understand this simple fact. Most games PvP is so fast paced that it drives away most new players. People don't like to spawn and get killed 20 seconds later. That is the reality of most MMO pvp... there are very few games that have the balance that STO has... balance where 2 teams of high skill can push a game to 30min+ by countering. STO is fairly unique in that regard... and yes most of us consider that a + not proff that something is broken... broken would be I load up a team of 5 tac scorts with 3 nuke doffs each... and roll everyone for lulz.
Dude, I am not arguing with you any more... It is absolutely hilarious that you can say that, "Very few games that have the balance that STO has..." Then again you're right, very few games do have the balance that STO has... none.
Dude, I am not arguing with you any more... It is absolutely hilarious that you can say that, "Very few games that have the balance that STO has..." Then again you're right, very few games do have the balance that STO has... none.
Have a good one.
Name a MMO with better pvp balance... not counting p2w units... go for it I dare you. lol
Frankly STO for all the complaining we do is one of the best balanced MMOs at its core there is. I know that sounds crazy considering how much gripping we all do... but its true sadly.
Most other MMOS are balanced of gear far to much... in most MMOs You just don't do better if you bring a proper healer and debuffer... you are flat out destroyed in seconds with out them.
Yes you can cry mitigation all you want... truth is at is core this games mitigation vs dmg values aren't that bad. Yes healing is in general stronger then dmg... however I don't think a system that had higher DPS numbers vs healing would be better...
Yes in every MMO I have ever played the Magik spewing debuffer turnes the battle every time. Yes subnuke turns battles.... I really don't see how giving that ability to everyone fixes some issue you see with stacking buffs.
In any event ya we can agree to disagree on this one... the game isn't as broken as you think imo... and imo if it where as broken as you think throwing a broken sci in a can doff into the mix doesn't fix it.
Who is arguing for borked DOFFs? Reading comprehension, you has it?
think your in need of learning to just read. your going to keep typing how you need an op doff to break healing after being told counters of the game. think reading comprehension is on order.
do they make a doff for that?
and why do you even skip what i said about tsi and pands? they can kill each other in games. not like its a stale mate. so what you say about not killing people beacuse of healing just dont hold water. you could have maybe even asked to jump into a game with crits just to show you how a team should work, how you do get kills and switch targets.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
You may mean this in a tongue-in-cheek-way, but in fact, it is true in the original sense of the "OP" term. Well-working teams are far superior to PUGs, to the point of the latter being discouraged from PvPing. Solution: Smaller teams to make teamwork less important. And even a 1v1 queue (or game modes that discourage clobbing together).
I actually find myself astonished to agree with you on this point!
I've said it before, and been slapped silly for it, but teamwork in STO IS OP. Working together brings too much to the game. If you've even been in a PUGvPUG game with 2 people from a premade on one side, you'll know what I mean. 2 people working perfectly together can easily deal with a 5-man PUG, even if the PUG is made up of decent players (but not decent team-players).
2v2 and 3v3 queues would help a lot against this. 1v1, not so much. Any experienced pvpeer should be able to make a build that simply can not be killed by any one player. It's not even hard to do. Queueing for 1v1, you would most likely meet a lot of these tanks and be stuck in a neverending battle.
My own suggestion would be to reduce the effectiveness of team-healing. For instance by giving HE, TSS and AtoSIF 25% reduction when applied to someone other than yourself. (+ reduce Extend resist)
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that working as a team should not make you a lot better for it. I just want people to see that there are degrees of everything. Right now, 5 people working together are stronger than 10 people (with same skill as individuals) not working together. Maybe stronger even than 15. Now IMO, 5 people working together should equal 7-8 people that lack coordination. To sum it up: Teamwork should give a really good advantage, but not infinite advantage.
Frankly STO for all the complaining we do is one of the best balanced MMOs at its core there is. I know that sounds crazy considering how much gripping we all do... but its true sadly.
This is true. Balance is almost impossible to acheive, but STO almost haz it.
i cant stand people that defend TRIBBLE like this that replaces skill, teamwork, tactics, communication, and balance
with LUCK
what a POS doff, should be removed from the game, money spent on them be damned.
tactic without SNB doff
ok team out heal their damage into a stalemate and then have the sci ship call shots and give us an opening to get a kill. good job team, that took teamwork and was satisfying
tactics with snb doffs
everybody shoot that guy and then he will be striped of resistance and die. i like cannon rapid fire and escorts and the space bar a whole lot. my next favorite things are siphon drones and runabouts
ok team out heal their damage into a stalemate and then have the sci ship call shots and give us an opening to get a kill. good job team, that took teamwork and was satisfying
yeah, there are a ton of ways to kill someone without resorting to auto-wipe doffing.
SNB
Target Subsystem
Viral Matrix (sadly, good because of doffs)
Photonic Shockwave
Sci based power drains
TBR
Sensor Scan
Scramble
Combine a few of the listed abilities in the right amount, in the right place, at the right time. That's how to debuff someone through skill, not luck.
True, the abilities listed above may need a slight buff, but that is incoming in the form of reworked CDs. (let's hope they don't overdo it...)
yeah, there are a ton of ways to kill someone without resorting to auto-wipe doffing.
SNB
Target Subsystem
Viral Matrix (sadly, good because of doffs)
Photonic Shockwave
Sci based power drains
TBR
Sensor Scan
Scramble
Combine a few of the listed abilities in the right amount, in the right place, at the right time. That's how to debuff someone through skill, not luck.
True, the abilities listed above may need a slight buff, but that is incoming in the form of reworked CDs. (let's hope they don't overdo it...)
Exactly and honestly I love that the best options all revolve around sci ships... this is working as it should be honestly. As much as all the "old guard" sci guys like Mai want to complain that sci is junk now... it really really isn't. You can't win games reliably with out a good sci... it just isn't over powered to the point of 5 man sci teams rolling everything anymore.
Frankly when people complain that sci needs buffed... there completely full of it...
Yes SOME sci skills could use some adjustment... and imo the easiest fix for sci resist issues is to simply reverse the scales on the resistance values on the skill tree... meaning you get more points the more you spend in resist... meaning 3 or 4 points into a resist isn't enough to neuter sci as it is now....
Anyway all I am saying is the sci that is working right now... is very effective at countering team heals. Every team needs 1-3 sci and preferably in a science ships... giving people to bring no sci at all and load tacs with skillless doffs instead... is just moving so far backwards its not even funny.
With the current state of the game, I completely agree Husanak.
That being said, there was a period lasting several months where any science vessel was a liability. An SP A-team would be three cruisers and two escorts. Now hardly anybody takes a cruiser as a support ship. There are a few reasons for this change:
-Most importantly, FAW went from never missing to receiving no benefit from [acc] modifiers. This change vastly diminished the damage dealing and spam clearing worth of cruisers. If FAW started never missing again we'd be fielding cruiser heavy teams the next day. In truth, cruisers are far too reactive to whatever Cryptic does with this one skill -- it should be a short term, high priority goal to get [acc] working properly and a long term goal to lower the dependence of cruisers on FAW in general. (Bort, are you listening in? Anything to add?)
-Next, the buff to transphasic torpedoes, tric mines, and the addition of the wide angle quantum torpedo launcher moderately (--greatly actually, if you know what you are doing) increased the damage potential of full kinetic builds. Cruisers still turn too slow to make good use of full kinetic, and a kinetic build is a complete waste on an escort, so this only benefited science vessels.
-Also, the inclusion of the Recluse and the Orb Weaver -- the later of which has now been superseded by the Wells -- has given healers and science captains their equivalent of the Bugship. The Wells is easily the best science ship, and the Recluse is easily the most capable main healer in the same way the Bugship is obviously so much better than other escorts. The Recluse in particular is a big slap in the face to cruisers because it fills the traditional eng/cruiser main healer role better. Although you can roll an engculse and make it work you're far better off with a scicluse -- The carrier isn't nearly as dependent on power levels and another subnuke is always a good thing. Engineers only ever made sense in cruisers, so this is also a big blow to the entire engineer career!
-Lastly, PvPers have figured out the few high level science powers left that still work well and have gained proficiency using them. VM and low aux TBR are certainly no CPB or Grav Well of old, but they are effective none-the-less when coordinated properly. Don't get me wrong, the commander level science powers are still severely underpowered to the point that you might even get more mileage out of the ensign sci powers. Science vessels are worth fielding again in spite of the current crop of high level debuffs, not because of them.
I can see where the OP is coming from completely. Healing and resists are a little ridiculous in STO right now (especially when min-maxed with proper Aux management or exploited by a coordinated team).
That said, saying that subnuke DOffs are a solution to turtling is like saying that a hatchet wound to the neck is a solution for a headache. There's too much that's annoyingly random about them (like Husanak said, it's basically whoever gets the most or the best procs off first) and there isn't even the bare minimum of effort involved since it's just an on-hit effect.
I actually wouldn't even mind as much if it only applied to defensive buffs, but it applies to everything and it can drag fights out just as bad by virtue of the fact that people are incapable of properly using their offensive burst since a little gremlin on the wing is nicking all the buffs.
I actually find myself astonished to agree with you on this point!
I've said it before, and been slapped silly for it, but teamwork in STO IS OP. Working together brings too much to the game. If you've even been in a PUGvPUG game with 2 people from a premade on one side, you'll know what I mean. 2 people working perfectly together can easily deal with a 5-man PUG, even if the PUG is made up of decent players (but not decent team-players).
This is less to do with the game engine and more to do with the fact that STO doesn't have a serious queueing system (WoW and certain flavors of DotA are also notoriously bad for this).
Ideally, the queueing system should pair 2s againsts 2s, 5s against 5s, 3s against 3s, full randoms against full randoms, etc. I understand some people are against this, but frankly I can't see any reason why and I'm a little suspicious about their motives (maybe it's just me but I don't get much out of steamrolling pugs).
I can see where the OP is coming from completely. Healing and resists are a little ridiculous in STO right now (especially when min-maxed with proper Aux management or exploited by a coordinated team).
That said, saying that subnuke DOffs are a solution to turtling is like saying that a hatchet wound to the neck is a solution for a headache. There's too much that's annoyingly random about them (like Husanak said, it's basically whoever gets the most or the best procs off first) and there isn't even the bare minimum of effort involved since it's just an on-hit effect.
I actually wouldn't even mind as much if it only applied to defensive buffs, but it applies to everything and it can drag fights out just as bad by virtue of the fact that people are incapable of properly using their offensive burst since a little gremlin on the wing is nicking all the buffs.
Thank you... for some people it is hard to say ANYTHING negative about their favorite game. They don't see a problem because they don't experience the issue... since they admittedly utilize the abilities that I said were absolutely necessary...
Buff Stripping DOFF -is- a solution, like it or not, and I don't like it... and I also don't like the never-ending cascade of heals/buffs. It is a sad excuse of a band-aid for the issue. A target who unexpectedly has its' buffs stripped is going to pop very easily, and others who can never have their buffs stripped, (because a team simply doesn't have that ability,) will win every time.
This is less to do with the game engine and more to do with the fact that STO doesn't have a serious queueing system (WoW and certain flavors of DotA are also notoriously bad for this).
Ideally, the queueing system should pair 2s againsts 2s, 5s against 5s, 3s against 3s, full randoms against full randoms, etc. I understand some people are against this, but frankly I can't see any reason why and I'm a little suspicious about their motives (maybe it's just me but I don't get much out of steamrolling pugs).
People who point out that team > PUG are just looking for something to say on here... it's like, "Really? No kidding..." It has nothing to do with the issues I'm pointing out, since an organized team, with a ton of heals/buffs going out on each side... the side who can strip buffs will win.
Exactly and honestly I love that the best options all revolve around sci ships... this is working as it should be honestly. As much as all the "old guard" sci guys like Mai want to complain that sci is junk now... it really really isn't. You can't win games reliably with out a good sci... it just isn't over powered to the point of 5 man sci teams rolling everything anymore.
Frankly when people complain that sci needs buffed... there completely full of it...
Yes SOME sci skills could use some adjustment... and imo the easiest fix for sci resist issues is to simply reverse the scales on the resistance values on the skill tree... meaning you get more points the more you spend in resist... meaning 3 or 4 points into a resist isn't enough to neuter sci as it is now....
Anyway all I am saying is the sci that is working right now... is very effective at countering team heals. Every team needs 1-3 sci and preferably in a science ships... giving people to bring no sci at all and load tacs with skillless doffs instead... is just moving so far backwards its not even funny.
This guy is lost... he wants even MORE resist and has no idea what I'm talking about when I say unkillable targets... It's as if he wants to become more overpowered by offering solutions that will only benefit his team.
With the current state of the game, I completely agree Husanak.
That being said, there was a period lasting several months where any science vessel was a liability. An SP A-team would be three cruisers and two escorts. Now hardly anybody takes a cruiser as a support ship. There are a few reasons for this change:
-Most importantly, FAW went from never missing to receiving no benefit from [acc] modifiers. This change vastly diminished the damage dealing and spam clearing worth of cruisers. If FAW started never missing again we'd be fielding cruiser heavy teams the next day. In truth, cruisers are far too reactive to whatever Cryptic does with this one skill -- it should be a short term, high priority goal to get [acc] working properly and a long term goal to lower the dependence of cruisers on FAW in general. (Bort, are you listening in? Anything to add?)
-Next, the buff to transphasic torpedoes, tric mines, and the addition of the wide angle quantum torpedo launcher moderately (--greatly actually, if you know what you are doing) increased the damage potential of full kinetic builds. Cruisers still turn too slow to make good use of full kinetic, and a kinetic build is a complete waste on an escort, so this only benefited science vessels.
-Also, the inclusion of the Recluse and the Orb Weaver -- the later of which has now been superseded by the Wells -- has given healers and science captains their equivalent of the Bugship. The Wells is easily the best science ship, and the Recluse is easily the most capable main healer in the same way the Bugship is obviously so much better than other escorts. The Recluse in particular is a big slap in the face to cruisers because it fills the traditional eng/cruiser main healer role better. Although you can roll an engculse and make it work you're far better off with a scicluse -- The carrier isn't nearly as dependent on power levels and another subnuke is always a good thing. Engineers only ever made sense in cruisers, so this is also a big blow to the entire engineer career!
-Lastly, PvPers have figured out the few high level science powers left that still work well and have gained proficiency using them. VM and low aux TBR are certainly no CPB or Grav Well of old, but they are effective none-the-less when coordinated properly. Don't get me wrong, the commander level science powers are still severely underpowered to the point that you might even get more mileage out of the ensign sci powers. Science vessels are worth fielding again in spite of the current crop of high level debuffs, not because of them.
You are correct on all of your points but it kind of derails what I have been saying about heals/mitigation being overpowered against teams who have ZERO way to deal with them... Forcing Sci down people's throats is not a good option and won't be conducive to getting many people into PVP.
yeah, there are a ton of ways to kill someone without resorting to auto-wipe doffing.
SNB
Target Subsystem
Viral Matrix (sadly, good because of doffs)
Photonic Shockwave
Sci based power drains
TBR
Sensor Scan
Scramble
Combine a few of the listed abilities in the right amount, in the right place, at the right time. That's how to debuff someone through skill, not luck.
True, the abilities listed above may need a slight buff, but that is incoming in the form of reworked CDs. (let's hope they don't overdo it...)
All of those abilities are Sci... thereby still forcing Sci onto teams. As I said, there are no other options for other Captains available to get around the mitigation, and that's bad design. Except, of course, the grotesque buff stripping DOFF.
This is less to do with the game engine and more to do with the fact that STO doesn't have a serious queueing system (WoW and certain flavors of DotA are also notoriously bad for this).
Ideally, the queueing system should pair 2s againsts 2s, 5s against 5s, 3s against 3s, full randoms against full randoms, etc. I understand some people are against this, but frankly I can't see any reason why and I'm a little suspicious about their motives (maybe it's just me but I don't get much out of steamrolling pugs).
Que system in STO is absolute fail, no argument there. Unfortunately, a que system like you propose is not viable in STO, because the PvP playerbase is too low due to the crappy queueing system. (yeah, it can make your head spin....)
First the queues need to be fixed to perform the current demands, then playerbase has to increase, then the queues must get added functionality. All this should ideally hapen dynamically, with queues adapting to pressure.
Our best chance would be if PvPing counts toward the coming Omega Reputation system.
This guy is lost... he wants even MORE resist and has no idea what I'm talking about when I say unkillable targets... It's as if he wants to become more overpowered by offering solutions that will only benefit his team.
Strange... that's not what i read.... I see him saying that more debuffs is key. Wich in turn leads to lower resists, wich in turn allows you to kill someone even if he's using all his resistables.
All of those abilities are Sci... thereby still forcing Sci onto teams. As I said, there are no other options for other Captains available to get around the mitigation, and that's bad design. Except, of course, the grotesque buff stripping DOFF.
If you can't see how in an MMO, forcing people to run "Balanced" teams, is Ideal then maybe pvp gaming isn't for you.
There is no mmo in existence where you can run a High End team without taking some kind of CC specialists, Healers, or damage dealers. And don't say "mechwarrior" because there, you better take a balanced set of mechs into combat, lest you either lose all ability to deal credible damage (because you took too many light mechs), lose all forms of mobility, and thus the ability to defend your base, or mount an effective offense (because you took too many Assaults), or lose because you don't have proper fire support (heavies).
MMOs need balance team loadouts to be not only viable, but the strongest option to go with. If you don't, you end up with a Bargain Bin Title.
This guy is lost... he wants even MORE resist and has no idea what I'm talking about when I say unkillable targets... It's as if he wants to become more overpowered by offering solutions that will only benefit his team.
You are correct on all of your points but it kind of derails what I have been saying about heals/mitigation being overpowered against teams who have ZERO way to deal with them... Forcing Sci down people's throats is not a good option and won't be conducive to getting many people into PVP.
All of those abilities are Sci... thereby still forcing Sci onto teams. As I said, there are no other options for other Captains available to get around the mitigation, and that's bad design. Except, of course, the grotesque buff stripping DOFF.
i almost cant believe what im reading. gee, maybe its not science thats the problem, maybe its you. the system function fine with healing being outpacing damage and needing science to break the deadlock. thats how systems like this work. if you think you can exude 1 of these types and succeed... just go back to pve, thats more your speed. all you need there is your cannons and your space bar.
i almost cant believe what im reading. gee, maybe its not science thats the problem, maybe its you. the system function fine with healing being outpacing damage and needing science to break the deadlock. thats how systems like this work. if you think you can exude 1 of these types and succeed... just go back to pve, thats more your speed. all you need there is your cannons and your space bar.
To be fair all he needs presently is his cannons space bar and SNB doffs for pvp now.
That's why he's angry. He burned a brain cell out thinking of that combo "all by himself!" and found that for once he's not a bottom of the barrel player. Only thing is, he is one still but now he has a crutch that lets him punch well above his weight class.
All of those abilities are Sci... thereby still forcing Sci onto teams. As I said, there are no other options for other Captains available to get around the mitigation, and that's bad design. Except, of course, the grotesque buff stripping DOFF.
Bubkis... yes a proper pvp team needs a sci ship... how is that broken.
A team with out at least one escort won't win either.
A team with out a healer preferably a cruiser... is not going to have the healing to win either.
What is your crusade against sci ships do you hate them that much. lol
Comments
There is no such thing as PVP Holy Trinity, that's not even a term... you just made it up...
I honestly don't care when or how often your team wins or loses... Battles that last for 40 mins to 1 hour are evidence of broken game mechanics that are not balanced and suited for PVP. Way to not fall asleep during that game, though.
No, it's not possible to get through a good team's heals/mitigation without buff strip of some kind. Unless of course you are talking about those hours long battles where one side just falls asleep at the keyboard and you killed a target because everyone's eyes were falling out.
what your are saying makes no sence. then how do any teams win wtf? everyone can do what you are drcribing. since tsi and pandas do kill eachother with out sub doff ask how are they doing it.
BS.
I have NEVER EVER met a team we where not able to take down with simple target rotation.
Critz has won plenty of games vs good teams with ZERO nukes and ZERO doffs. It takes longer but its not impossible... and yes after the win one of us likely switched to a sci toon... cause ya who wants to be in the same match for over an hour.
Having said that NO ONE that isn't going to bring at least one Sci Toon is Deserving of a win...
Arguing for Borked doffs cause you can't win if you don't bring a proper team is a terrible arguement.
YES winning with out at least one sci captain on your team is really hard....
How is that broken again ?
Who is arguing for borked DOFFs? Reading comprehension, you has it?
No one in a good 30min+ match is complaining.
If you have played a bunch of other mmos as you claim you would understand this simple fact. Most games PvP is so fast paced that it drives away most new players. People don't like to spawn and get killed 20 seconds later. That is the reality of most MMO pvp... there are very few games that have the balance that STO has... balance where 2 teams of high skill can push a game to 30min+ by countering. STO is fairly unique in that regard... and yes most of us consider that a + not proff that something is broken... broken would be I load up a team of 5 tac scorts with 3 nuke doffs each... and roll everyone for lulz.
Dude, I am not arguing with you any more... It is absolutely hilarious that you can say that, "Very few games that have the balance that STO has..." Then again you're right, very few games do have the balance that STO has... none.
Have a good one.
Name a MMO with better pvp balance... not counting p2w units... go for it I dare you. lol
Frankly STO for all the complaining we do is one of the best balanced MMOs at its core there is. I know that sounds crazy considering how much gripping we all do... but its true sadly.
Most other MMOS are balanced of gear far to much... in most MMOs You just don't do better if you bring a proper healer and debuffer... you are flat out destroyed in seconds with out them.
Yes you can cry mitigation all you want... truth is at is core this games mitigation vs dmg values aren't that bad. Yes healing is in general stronger then dmg... however I don't think a system that had higher DPS numbers vs healing would be better...
Yes in every MMO I have ever played the Magik spewing debuffer turnes the battle every time. Yes subnuke turns battles.... I really don't see how giving that ability to everyone fixes some issue you see with stacking buffs.
In any event ya we can agree to disagree on this one... the game isn't as broken as you think imo... and imo if it where as broken as you think throwing a broken sci in a can doff into the mix doesn't fix it.
Anyway have fun in which ever game you end up in.
think your in need of learning to just read. your going to keep typing how you need an op doff to break healing after being told counters of the game. think reading comprehension is on order.
do they make a doff for that?
and why do you even skip what i said about tsi and pands? they can kill each other in games. not like its a stale mate. so what you say about not killing people beacuse of healing just dont hold water. you could have maybe even asked to jump into a game with crits just to show you how a team should work, how you do get kills and switch targets.
free dumb b 4 eva
free dumb be forever
Husanak,
Thats a whole lot of minor ignorance for the rest of eternity.
R.I.P
Bring on the trolls to kill a thread. Dat troll can't spell either...
You killed the thread with your inane reasoning.
And you just got buried by Husanak and the rest, so chill.
I actually find myself astonished to agree with you on this point!
I've said it before, and been slapped silly for it, but teamwork in STO IS OP. Working together brings too much to the game. If you've even been in a PUGvPUG game with 2 people from a premade on one side, you'll know what I mean. 2 people working perfectly together can easily deal with a 5-man PUG, even if the PUG is made up of decent players (but not decent team-players).
2v2 and 3v3 queues would help a lot against this. 1v1, not so much. Any experienced pvpeer should be able to make a build that simply can not be killed by any one player. It's not even hard to do. Queueing for 1v1, you would most likely meet a lot of these tanks and be stuck in a neverending battle.
My own suggestion would be to reduce the effectiveness of team-healing. For instance by giving HE, TSS and AtoSIF 25% reduction when applied to someone other than yourself. (+ reduce Extend resist)
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that working as a team should not make you a lot better for it. I just want people to see that there are degrees of everything. Right now, 5 people working together are stronger than 10 people (with same skill as individuals) not working together. Maybe stronger even than 15. Now IMO, 5 people working together should equal 7-8 people that lack coordination. To sum it up: Teamwork should give a really good advantage, but not infinite advantage.
This is true. Balance is almost impossible to acheive, but STO almost haz it.
with LUCK
what a POS doff, should be removed from the game, money spent on them be damned.
tactic without SNB doff
ok team out heal their damage into a stalemate and then have the sci ship call shots and give us an opening to get a kill. good job team, that took teamwork and was satisfying
tactics with snb doffs
everybody shoot that guy and then he will be striped of resistance and die. i like cannon rapid fire and escorts and the space bar a whole lot. my next favorite things are siphon drones and runabouts
yeah, there are a ton of ways to kill someone without resorting to auto-wipe doffing.
SNB
Target Subsystem
Viral Matrix (sadly, good because of doffs)
Photonic Shockwave
Sci based power drains
TBR
Sensor Scan
Scramble
Combine a few of the listed abilities in the right amount, in the right place, at the right time. That's how to debuff someone through skill, not luck.
True, the abilities listed above may need a slight buff, but that is incoming in the form of reworked CDs. (let's hope they don't overdo it...)
Exactly and honestly I love that the best options all revolve around sci ships... this is working as it should be honestly. As much as all the "old guard" sci guys like Mai want to complain that sci is junk now... it really really isn't. You can't win games reliably with out a good sci... it just isn't over powered to the point of 5 man sci teams rolling everything anymore.
Frankly when people complain that sci needs buffed... there completely full of it...
Yes SOME sci skills could use some adjustment... and imo the easiest fix for sci resist issues is to simply reverse the scales on the resistance values on the skill tree... meaning you get more points the more you spend in resist... meaning 3 or 4 points into a resist isn't enough to neuter sci as it is now....
Anyway all I am saying is the sci that is working right now... is very effective at countering team heals. Every team needs 1-3 sci and preferably in a science ships... giving people to bring no sci at all and load tacs with skillless doffs instead... is just moving so far backwards its not even funny.
That being said, there was a period lasting several months where any science vessel was a liability. An SP A-team would be three cruisers and two escorts. Now hardly anybody takes a cruiser as a support ship. There are a few reasons for this change:
-Most importantly, FAW went from never missing to receiving no benefit from [acc] modifiers. This change vastly diminished the damage dealing and spam clearing worth of cruisers. If FAW started never missing again we'd be fielding cruiser heavy teams the next day. In truth, cruisers are far too reactive to whatever Cryptic does with this one skill -- it should be a short term, high priority goal to get [acc] working properly and a long term goal to lower the dependence of cruisers on FAW in general. (Bort, are you listening in? Anything to add?)
-Next, the buff to transphasic torpedoes, tric mines, and the addition of the wide angle quantum torpedo launcher moderately (--greatly actually, if you know what you are doing) increased the damage potential of full kinetic builds. Cruisers still turn too slow to make good use of full kinetic, and a kinetic build is a complete waste on an escort, so this only benefited science vessels.
-Also, the inclusion of the Recluse and the Orb Weaver -- the later of which has now been superseded by the Wells -- has given healers and science captains their equivalent of the Bugship. The Wells is easily the best science ship, and the Recluse is easily the most capable main healer in the same way the Bugship is obviously so much better than other escorts. The Recluse in particular is a big slap in the face to cruisers because it fills the traditional eng/cruiser main healer role better. Although you can roll an engculse and make it work you're far better off with a scicluse -- The carrier isn't nearly as dependent on power levels and another subnuke is always a good thing. Engineers only ever made sense in cruisers, so this is also a big blow to the entire engineer career!
-Lastly, PvPers have figured out the few high level science powers left that still work well and have gained proficiency using them. VM and low aux TBR are certainly no CPB or Grav Well of old, but they are effective none-the-less when coordinated properly. Don't get me wrong, the commander level science powers are still severely underpowered to the point that you might even get more mileage out of the ensign sci powers. Science vessels are worth fielding again in spite of the current crop of high level debuffs, not because of them.
That said, saying that subnuke DOffs are a solution to turtling is like saying that a hatchet wound to the neck is a solution for a headache. There's too much that's annoyingly random about them (like Husanak said, it's basically whoever gets the most or the best procs off first) and there isn't even the bare minimum of effort involved since it's just an on-hit effect.
I actually wouldn't even mind as much if it only applied to defensive buffs, but it applies to everything and it can drag fights out just as bad by virtue of the fact that people are incapable of properly using their offensive burst since a little gremlin on the wing is nicking all the buffs.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
This is less to do with the game engine and more to do with the fact that STO doesn't have a serious queueing system (WoW and certain flavors of DotA are also notoriously bad for this).
Ideally, the queueing system should pair 2s againsts 2s, 5s against 5s, 3s against 3s, full randoms against full randoms, etc. I understand some people are against this, but frankly I can't see any reason why and I'm a little suspicious about their motives (maybe it's just me but I don't get much out of steamrolling pugs).
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Thank you... for some people it is hard to say ANYTHING negative about their favorite game. They don't see a problem because they don't experience the issue... since they admittedly utilize the abilities that I said were absolutely necessary...
Buff Stripping DOFF -is- a solution, like it or not, and I don't like it... and I also don't like the never-ending cascade of heals/buffs. It is a sad excuse of a band-aid for the issue. A target who unexpectedly has its' buffs stripped is going to pop very easily, and others who can never have their buffs stripped, (because a team simply doesn't have that ability,) will win every time.
People who point out that team > PUG are just looking for something to say on here... it's like, "Really? No kidding..." It has nothing to do with the issues I'm pointing out, since an organized team, with a ton of heals/buffs going out on each side... the side who can strip buffs will win.
This guy is lost... he wants even MORE resist and has no idea what I'm talking about when I say unkillable targets... It's as if he wants to become more overpowered by offering solutions that will only benefit his team.
You are correct on all of your points but it kind of derails what I have been saying about heals/mitigation being overpowered against teams who have ZERO way to deal with them... Forcing Sci down people's throats is not a good option and won't be conducive to getting many people into PVP.
All of those abilities are Sci... thereby still forcing Sci onto teams. As I said, there are no other options for other Captains available to get around the mitigation, and that's bad design. Except, of course, the grotesque buff stripping DOFF.
Que system in STO is absolute fail, no argument there. Unfortunately, a que system like you propose is not viable in STO, because the PvP playerbase is too low due to the crappy queueing system. (yeah, it can make your head spin....)
First the queues need to be fixed to perform the current demands, then playerbase has to increase, then the queues must get added functionality. All this should ideally hapen dynamically, with queues adapting to pressure.
Our best chance would be if PvPing counts toward the coming Omega Reputation system.
Strange... that's not what i read.... I see him saying that more debuffs is key. Wich in turn leads to lower resists, wich in turn allows you to kill someone even if he's using all his resistables.
If you can't see how in an MMO, forcing people to run "Balanced" teams, is Ideal then maybe pvp gaming isn't for you.
There is no mmo in existence where you can run a High End team without taking some kind of CC specialists, Healers, or damage dealers. And don't say "mechwarrior" because there, you better take a balanced set of mechs into combat, lest you either lose all ability to deal credible damage (because you took too many light mechs), lose all forms of mobility, and thus the ability to defend your base, or mount an effective offense (because you took too many Assaults), or lose because you don't have proper fire support (heavies).
MMOs need balance team loadouts to be not only viable, but the strongest option to go with. If you don't, you end up with a Bargain Bin Title.
i almost cant believe what im reading. gee, maybe its not science thats the problem, maybe its you. the system function fine with healing being outpacing damage and needing science to break the deadlock. thats how systems like this work. if you think you can exude 1 of these types and succeed... just go back to pve, thats more your speed. all you need there is your cannons and your space bar.
To be fair all he needs presently is his cannons space bar and SNB doffs for pvp now.
That's why he's angry. He burned a brain cell out thinking of that combo "all by himself!" and found that for once he's not a bottom of the barrel player. Only thing is, he is one still but now he has a crutch that lets him punch well above his weight class.
Bubkis... yes a proper pvp team needs a sci ship... how is that broken.
A team with out at least one escort won't win either.
A team with out a healer preferably a cruiser... is not going to have the healing to win either.
What is your crusade against sci ships do you hate them that much. lol