ok can we leave the world rp'er out of this? ide really hate to out right attack your post for comming off so noobish. a player such as yourself should actually look at the picture as a whole and see that it would be a big improvemt over what we have atm. escourt that can tank because of borg procs, sdo, or even use aux to bat doffsx3 and still hit he when needed. a healer can use 3 of thoes doffs and still heal a team so what are you on about? you talk all the time about going over wep cap as it is correct? dont you think you can over cap other systems? what about doffs that help gain extra energy into subsystems? warp core doffs? the bat doffs? what about engy capt skills like nadion inversion and epts transfere? maybe, just maybe then engys will actually think, do i go epta over eptw. i fail to see how this will effect or even possible cripple a healer. lets drop the beam over load on a tact. we use crf ever 15 secs. does that wep drain stop us from getting over 500k to 1 mill in dps during a match? i think most of you guys just want super healers in god mode doing dps as well. using extend sheilds should lower your sheild power as well as resistence. wtf you are giving some of your sheild to another guy. to solve that you even have an extends doff. and even when they nerf it its still good. you have et that dont even take a subsystem power to use. it might even fix sci as well since some of the powers dont even use aux such as psw and vm and sci team. so powers such as grav well and cpb and psw can get the nerf bat taken off.
lemmy just kill this idea right now, with RP. wanna know why abilities have cooldowns? its because say the HE capacitor for example needs to literally cool down and draw energy from your auxiliary power EPS manifold, and when that capacitor's charge equalizes with the energy level in the conduit, you can use it again. this mechanic you want already exists, its the cool downs. the energy that it would drain is already drained into the device on your ship responsible for performing the ability.
how would they balance the magnitude of the drain, the rate of drain and recharge when there are so many variable and that effect it? you cant build this into the system, this would require a system built around it. and that would be fine for that system, but its far, far, far to late to rewrite this system.
if you think things are unbalanced now, and healing is op, damage is op, cc is op, everything is just to op and nothing feels right, well this isn't how to fix that. careful number tweaking in key modifiers for abilities are needed here and there, not a fundamental upheaval of what works a lot better then you apparently think.
oh. you want things to drain 10 power? then whats the point. now all this looks like a stupid waste of time. if you want a skill to drain energy, make it drain an actual amount lie BO does. im done with the pointless TRIBBLE.
lemmy just kill this idea right now, with RP. wanna know why abilities have cooldowns? its because say the HE capacitor for example needs to literally cool down and draw energy from your auxiliary power EPS manifold, and when that capacitor's charge equalizes with the energy level in the conduit, you can use it again. this mechanic you want already exists, its the cool downs. the energy that it would drain is already drained into the device on your ship responsible for performing the ability.
how would they balance the magnitude of the drain, the rate of drain and recharge when there are so many variable and that effect it? you cant build this into the system, this would require a system built around it. and that would be fine for that system, but its far, far, far to late to rewrite this system.
if you think things are unbalanced now, and healing is op, damage is op, cc is op, everything is just to op and nothing feels right, well this isn't how to fix that. careful number tweaking in key modifiers for abilities are needed here and there, not a fundamental upheaval of what works a lot better then you apparently think.
oh. you want things to drain 10 power? then whats the point. now all this looks like a stupid waste of time. if you want a skill to drain energy, make it drain an actual amount lie BO does. im done with the pointless TRIBBLE.
guess some people have a dunce hat on and just dont want to take it off. again with this rp TRIBBLE. at a time i actually did respect you but not anymore which means less to a nitwit like you. again look at the whole picture. tacts get the worse of it. a dhc eats 12 wep power if im correct. a turrent eats 8 wep power correct? so add up the wep power total consumed just from using my main skills as a tact. what do engys do? pump up the wep power, used sustained damage and heal the whole team and dont lose out on anything. you are the same people that cry because sci sci got the nerf bat. the same sci/ sci that did awesome dps as well as awesome sci damage with debuffing. well look where it got. so let me get this stright, engys good on dps awesome on healing and dont lose out. tacts that lose the dps and always have to use bats to get wep power back, sci sci that goes 125 aux if they want and put out awesome healing or go 110 aux still awesome on heals and light on dps............ or just use every aux skill with no loss in a system. now look at all the p2w consoles. they arent linked on subsystem x so it can be spamed with out bad returns on a system. and btw who is crying op on heals? i did not and if you thought muz actually ment that your more dumb then your post is. really why cant you just post back with in reason and explain why it would be bad or good with examples like i gave? or is it you dont want to really juggle system power and handle the loss accordingly? if he was -10 aux first heal was pure and starting with 30 aux and he gave 100 hp, aux2sif was -10 aux should give 100 hp but that goes to 90 because of loss of power and tss is -10 aux should give 100 sheild regen but is now 80 regen. dont look like much but infact it does add up. now your no longer on an engy trying to over cap on wep power but infact trying to do your actualy job of HEALING THE TEAM and not trying to keep up that dps but infact trying to keep up the heals.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
After speaking to broken, I like the idea around power drain I feel there could be a huge problem and potential here I would like borticus to sconsider these as options.
problems:
1. people will self heal not team heal - if your extends suck power from your shields then you become squishy why would you ever do it?
2. Aux power heals like hazard emitters runs off aux, with current unbalance keeping heals up on focused targets would be stupidly hard to heal sub nuc and gas etc.
3. same with aux to sif etc deminishing the power would mean lesser heal strength
just seriously a bad idea overall due to everyone becoming more squishy and cant hold there own heals up.
what I propose:
perhaps forget the heal powers, look at other skills
for a sci when activating gravity well/tykens rift diminish the aux by 50 like beam overload for a few seconds let it respawn like bo. which would be a favourable idea, this would be a better move
After speaking to broken, I like the idea around power drain I feel there could be a huge problem and potential here I would like borticus to sconsider these as options.
problems:
1. people will self heal not team heal - if your extends suck power from your shields then you become squishy why would you ever do it?
2. Aux power heals like hazard emitters runs off aux, with current unbalance keeping heals up on focused targets would be stupidly hard to heal sub nuc and gas etc.
3. same with aux to sif etc deminishing the power would mean lesser heal strength
just seriously a bad idea overall due to everyone becoming more squishy and cant hold there own heals up.
what I propose:
perhaps forget the heal powers, look at other skills
for a sci when activating gravity well/tykens rift diminish the aux by 50 like beam overload for a few seconds let it respawn like bo. which would be a favourable idea, this would be a better move
Sci ships have been nerfed enough, although I m not opposed to this if the skill tree gets an overhaul *reads what he just typed....yeah as if*
Nadeon could be the skill to let engies run heals close to current levels, keep the current buff on weapon drain (or slightly modify) and make it significantly more effective for aux based heals.
This might even make eng/sci more viable with TSS3, HE3, ST3(?)
STill this is way outside of the scope of what cryptic is either willing or capable of implementing...so free popcorn for all
Sci ships have been nerfed enough, although I m not opposed to this if the skill tree gets an overhaul *reads what he just typed....yeah as if*
Nadeon could be the skill to let engies run heals close to current levels, keep the current buff on weapon drain (or slightly modify) and make it significantly more effective for aux based heals.
This might even make eng/sci more viable with TSS3, HE3, ST3(?)
STill this is way outside of the scope of what cryptic is either willing or capable of implementing...so free popcorn for all
well i figured if they did something like this sci could make a come back. like fbp and cbp would be alot better because of the aux drain. they would buff thoes skills and people that did spec into insulators would not be much of a problem for sci users if they time thier skills around the full aux. like with a beam over load you just dont pop it when u can or you will just eat that dps. instead wait for aux levels to return to normal use another skill. sorry if i cant put my thoughts better with typing. its better when i can use my actually voice. i still think this will fix the p2w consoles on its own since say gp will take some aux away to use it or ams would take aux away to use it. sub jump my not be a problem but i think that should take some engine power just like quad cannons do.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
except its a fact that a fully min/maxed dedicated healer has twice the healing potential then fully min/maxed damage dealer has damage potential.
Spreadsheets do not join the queue though.
edit: That came off snappier than I wanted it to (I was rushing to reply to another post and did not give this one the full thought that I should have done).
Perhaps I also lumped that statement in with those that believe a single dedicated DPS should be able to kill a single dedicated Heals. I don't. I believe in the BAF system as well as bringing more than just DPS to that particular scenario.
It's like the following:
Player A is doing X Damage to Player B who was expecting Y Damage. As Player B is waiting to respawn, they may switch out their resists for X Damage.
Player A is doing X Damage to Player B who was expecting X Damage. As Player A is waiting to respawn, do they switch out their weapons for Y Damage?
A min/max player would, imho. Perhaps that's the EVE in me. Switch ammo/crystals/missiles/etc...
No doubt there are other issues that have been pointed out in several threads about some of the other changes that have taken place - things that should have been tweaked instead of changed the way they were - which may have offered that same difference between dedicated DPS/dedicated Heals; but it would have included ways to reduce it. Drains are too easy to resist. Drain X was an issue, but rather than addressing Drain X...they dorked the Drain system - effin' the Hell out of Drain Y & Z. Meh...
If it just becomes a discussion about hating the "Tank Mage" because it's a different playstyle, then it's not really any different than some of those players telling folks L2Escort.
But anyway, just because something can be shown on a spreadsheet - it doesn't necessarily mean that's what's always queuing up or showing up for a scheduled fight. What about the other nuances? Are those broken? Do those need tweaking?
PvP's a beautiful evolving dance. It's never the same - ever changing. That's a big draw. For folks that always want the same outcome that they can find on a spreadsheet, there's always PvE for that...
dude you are a troll. maybe go into pvp one day so you can see my side of things. dude a healer can get 10 mill healing in a match easy while still getting good dps. just ask my man mako
It's not trolling to ask you to look beyond what you're focused on.
You're like this: --->*<---
I'm asking you to: --->**<---
That's not trolling. That's trying to avoid all the nonsense that's constantly seen in multiple games where folks get a bug up their TRIBBLE about Point A and ignore everything else.
You had a pretty nifty starting post - you gave some Eng/Sci examples, I gave some Tac - we agreed on parts, but for some reason you went batty about others.
It's just another nerf healing post - doing it in an illogical way at that. There are several good ideas out there on how to deal with those issues. They realize doing DPS should require effort. They realize that healing should require effort. They do not want it to be a mindless space TPS. Look 'em up - they tend to get posted in threads like this...
...though I still believe this could have been so much more based off of what you said originally later in your original post.
Bak on topic...
Simply put... WHY IS WEP POWER THE ONLY SYS TO DRAIN???
Perhaps for the same reasons launching a torp doesn't drain Wep? Perhaps the same reason that the countless abilities that should use some sort of power do not?
Shields are constantly on - but Shield never drops, eh? Surely running the shields 24/7 is going to put a drain on that power, right? No? Shield doesn't work that way? Engine doesn't work that way? Aux doesn't work that way?
Still, like I said earlier: if not one, then none.
Perhaps they need to drop the Wep drain and consider another means to reach the place they wanted to achieve by doing that.
But maybe it's just a case that the systems work differently. I'd still prefer the pool system. Yes, it would be harder to balance with all the variables. To me though, it would be more substantive. It would kill it for casuals, so it will never happen. I know that.
So it goes back to either the way it's working is because although it would appear the systems are the same, they're really different... or it's a case that the Wep drain should be dropped in favor of something else to reach that same point.
if you think things are unbalanced now, and healing is op, damage is op, cc is op, everything is just to op and nothing feels right, well this isn't how to fix that. careful number tweaking in key modifiers for abilities are needed here and there, not a fundamental upheaval of what works a lot better then you apparently think.
But you get called a troll for trying to point this out. Well, he called you a dunce. I got called a troll.
Have to look at the entire game - can't focus on just Player A while ignoring Player B. Have to make small changes, tweak things, and see how it goes - then continue from there. You get that. Lots of folks get that. OP doesn't get that.
It's really not a bad idea, but it would introduce a whole new set of variables to take into consideration with every power that is introduced, as well as all powers currently available. It would all come down to Cost Of Opportunity to use a certain power, only now instead of having to "only" factor in existing variables such as cooldowns, seating limitations, skill investments, firing arcs, gear focus, and more... we also add "Power Cost" into the mix.
I feel like we're finally starting to get a good handle on the balance of the game's combat mechanics, and you wanna saunter up and throw a wrench in the gears.
I had no idea PvPers were so masochistic. =p
*what the hell*
Balance. you call this escort fest balance?
not sure if trolling or braindead.
Oh btw: introducing a proper power system now is a wee bit like almost 3 effing years too late. so not to op.
If you're whining like the rest of the pve'rs about how escorts seem to contribute more in STF's because they are timed, that's to do with the mission mechanics not the ship mechanics. In pvp each class/ship does have its place, regardless of what any kirk/tac/cruisers claim otherwise.
Perhaps you could ask for better mission design where dps at speed isn't the key, rather than make sweeping statements incinuating some kind of escort
imbalance.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
If you're whining like the rest of the pve'rs about how escorts seem to contribute more in STF's because they are timed, that's to do with the mission mechanics not the ship mechanics. In pvp each class/ship does have its place, regardless of what any kirk/tac/cruisers claim otherwise.
Perhaps you could ask for better mission design where dps at speed isn't the key, rather than make sweeping statements incinuating some kind of escort
imbalance.
Oh.
The escorts got defense buffs, even more offense (via nerfing the other ships defenses) and are now tanky enough to laugh at non esort grade damage while they pummel through other ships defenses. Heck, sci ships got better defenses than crusiers now sicne they wil lspam you with target subsystems and the usual sci-throw-your-keyboard-at-a-wall powers.
Want to know what cruiser got in terms of buffs over the course of the game?
a hefty nerf in beam array damage. Not a buff you say? *gasp*
Why was it nerfed? Becasue back then, escorts died to it to quickly.
Well escorts got several buffs. Tiem for cruisers to get their teeth back.
The escorts got defense buffs, even more offense (via nerfing the other ships defenses) and are now tanky enough to laugh at non esort grade damage while they pummel through other ships defenses. Heck, sci ships got better defenses than crusiers now sicne they wil lspam you with target subsystems and the usual sci-throw-your-keyboard-at-a-wall powers.
Want to know what cruiser got in terms of buffs over the course of the game?
a hefty nerf in beam array damage. Not a buff you say? *gasp*
Why was it nerfed? Becasue back then, escorts died to it to quickly.
Well escorts got several buffs. Tiem for cruisers to get their teeth back.
By in large, cruisers have a high shield modifier, highest hull and more engineering boff slots, i.e more potential survivability than escorts generally speaking.
If you give them "their teeth back" then you'll probably end up with a high survivability high dps ship that will outshine the others and become op.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
I did not want to respond to you as you are a troll but for the last time its not a nerf healing post. its about subsystem power being used for healing but never used. what if a tact had wep power but never a drain? atm a healer can go about 70 aux and get 10mill in healing and still pump out over caped dps. but i guess you think this is fair. yeah very fair that a healer does not have to even think about juggling system power and can bump all system power to 125 in each system with doffs.......
a sci can use every every aux based power and still heal with no drain. so lets leave out healing shall we? dont need to get peoples nipples in a bunch. so example that monkey brought up, beef up the grav well, cpb and fbp, but make it consume aux power. dont give a shared cool down. but now since it consumes aux they have to chose what they use. but again sci got the nerf bat taken off.
but again i dont see how aux based heals and sheild based heals would even be a nerf to a healer since eptx, epta anyone? nadion inversion? epts transfer? really what nerf heal?? oh i get it, you mean the dps nerf that a healer could possibly recieve since they need to be more aux focused.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
Shields are constantly on - but Shield never drops, eh? Surely running the shields 24/7 is going to put a drain on that power, right? No? Shield doesn't work that way
no it dont because you have epts always running in the back round. not sure if you know this but that boost sheild power so you can slide that subsystem power in engines or push it in aux.
but you totaly missed the point here. look at the p2w console trash. if thoes ate system power i think you would see less spam because it would force a player to chose what to use. oh look that player is about to pop, he uses gp, theta, ams goes full aux pops he1 back to wep power. if it ate the aux then that he1 would suck big time.
if you took time to look at the picture as a whole and not jump to OMG HEALING NERF WTF!!!!!!!! you would see that a player is force to chose what system power to focus on. thats why u have healers with 70 aux and over caped 125 system power for thoes 8 beams with no draw backs. why because at 70 aux power that he 1 on my oddy is a +13k heal. wtf 13k at 70 aux while fighting at over 125? why would i even chose to run eta at that point? i can just focus on eptw and maintain wep systems only. its so easy for a healer to have over 110 sheild power with the use of epts. but if i use extend shields that could drop my sheild power by 10-30 which would also lower sheild resist. and again if it did whats the problem? there are extend doffs. tacts are the only class that have to deal with eating a system power while other classes dont. just see what happened if a tact had no wep drain. would be op and people yell on fourms abaout it. but dont you even touch the god mode dps healers.
side note .......
my healer resting power, weps 108/90 sheilds 65/25 engines 55/25 aux 91/60
extends 1 145.9 resist 20.5 et3 12920.5 aux2sif 3 8135.8 resist 44.7 he 1 13017.2 resist 18.9 tss2 1102.3 resist 18.2 all of this while having 1 less sif gen and 1 less sheild emiter while im stacking resist like crazy and doing healing while using faw 2, i never see my weps drop past 115-120. i can even take a bit more sheild power and bump it into my weps. so how do people come off and even try to say im asking for a nerf bat to healing? people want to have thier 125 wep power on 8 beams and not even have to touch the aux system with epta to keep aux up for heals.
come back to me with numbers and why its a bad thing of what im asking for.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
By in large, cruisers have a high shield modifier, highest hull and more engineering boff slots, i.e more potential survivability than escorts generally speaking.
If you give them "their teeth back" then you'll probably end up with a high survivability high dps ship that will outshine the others and become op.
By and large, Cruisers do not have a shield modifier. They have the base. Escorts have a negative modifier and Sci have a positive modifier.
Yes, Cruisers generally have the highest hull (outside of Carriers). Yes, they're going to have more E-BOFFs (though one can argue how much additional survivability that gives one over T-BOFFs or S-BOFFs since things have been well on their way toward homogenization). And yes, Cruisers do not bother turning - rather they wait for the universe to turn around them.
Oh wait, you didn't mention that part.
Hrmm, come to think of it - I haven't seen any videos of a a Cruiser that tracts an Escort while the other Cruisers all mosey on around to the same facing to burn through... nor where Cruisers have facingbaited an Escort into rotating shields to the one side while another Cruiser moseys on around to a different facing. I tried to find a video of a Cruiser hugging the worst firing arc of their Escort target...but alas, I had no luck. I know if I keep looking, I'll find the video of the Cruiser that heaves itself around to change the facing that they're being attacked from faster than the Escort can stick to it.
Sorry...ahem, I'm just one of those guys that believes the issue is maneuverability of Escorts more than it is that they do too much damage or that Cruisers do not, etc, etc, etc. They fly like fighters - not the ships they are. IMO, the key to the balance is in that. They should be faster and more maneuverable than Cruisers, no doubt about that - but they shouldn't zip around like fighters. But then again, the fighters in STO zip around like a Mexican jumping bean caked in meth.
Still though, watch them fly around while in game or hit up YouTube, etc, etc, etc. Tell me how you get around picturing that every member of the crew would need to be strapped into a seat and that everything else would need to be put away, tied down, etc, etc, etc. Cause that's how they zip about...meh.
I did not want to respond to you as you are a troll but for the last time its not a nerf healing post. its about subsystem power being used for healing but never used. what if a tact had wep power but never a drain? atm a healer can go about 70 aux and get 10mill in healing and still pump out over caped dps. but i guess you think this is fair. yeah very fair that a healer does not have to even think about juggling system power and can bump all system power to 125 in each system with doffs.......
a sci can use every every aux based power and still heal with no drain. so lets leave out healing shall we? dont need to get peoples nipples in a bunch. so example that monkey brought up, beef up the grav well, cpb and fbp, but make it consume aux power. dont give a shared cool down. but now since it consumes aux they have to chose what they use. but again sci got the nerf bat taken off.
but again i dont see how aux based heals and sheild based heals would even be a nerf to a healer since eptx, epta anyone? nadion inversion? epts transfer? really what nerf heal?? oh i get it, you mean the dps nerf that a healer could possibly recieve since they need to be more aux focused.
I called it another call for a healing nerf, because you keep going back to healing. When you're not talking about just healing, then it wouldn't be something I would consider a call for a healing nerf. Even as you do not call it a cry for a healing nerf, let us count some keywords in what you've said here: 12 times you mention heals/healer/healing.
You want opportunity costs for certain Eng and Sci abilities that are modified by one of the subsystems. I want opportunity costs for everything. That's not saying that it's not a case of wanting what you want or thinking that there is not a problem - it's going beyond what you want and looking at the overall problem. That you do not want there to be the opportunity cost on everything strikes me as odd... it comes off as being focused on something that's a personal peeve to you and not really caring about overall issues. I still fail to see how it is trolling to point that out and suggest a comprehensive overhaul to the system.
That being said, I know there's not a chance in Hell that they'll overhaul the system. Which is where I have also said that "If not one, then none!" If there's not going to be a drain for doing X & Y, then there should not be a drain on doing Z. They need to find another way to balance Z.
You keep skipping over my having said that, though - and continue to want to see drains just for certain Eng and Sci abilities.
It would appear your issue is with the ability for some people to play "Tank Mages" - and - that is an issue. However, it's not an issue that can be resolved in the manner which you have suggested. Frankly, I feel your suggestion would just further dumb down the game - resulting in it becoming little more than a space TPS.
You want opportunity costs for certain Eng and Sci abilities that are modified by one of the subsystems. I want opportunity costs for everything. That's not saying that it's not a case of wanting what you want or thinking that there is not a problem - it's going beyond what you want and looking at the overall problem. That you do not want there to be the opportunity cost on everything strikes me as odd... it comes off as being focused on something that's a personal peeve to you and not really caring about overall issues.
let me stop you right there. what peeves? oh you mean how some bo powers are based off system power but never uses it? i would never touch tt, delta, omega, et, sci team. they dont use system based power so not sure what you are on about. but ty for turning this into a troll topic.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
no it dont because you have epts always running in the back round. not sure if you know this but that boost sheild power so you can slide that subsystem power in engines or push it in aux.
but you totaly missed the point here. look at the p2w console trash. if thoes ate system power i think you would see less spam because it would force a player to chose what to use. oh look that player is about to pop, he uses gp, theta, ams goes full aux pops he1 back to wep power. if it ate the aux then that he1 would suck big time.
if you took time to look at the picture as a whole and not jump to OMG HEALING NERF WTF!!!!!!!! you would see that a player is force to chose what system power to focus on. thats why u have healers with 70 aux and over caped 125 system power for thoes 8 beams with no draw backs. why because at 70 aux power that he 1 on my oddy is a +13k heal. wtf 13k at 70 aux while fighting at over 125? why would i even chose to run eta at that point? i can just focus on eptw and maintain wep systems only. its so easy for a healer to have over 110 sheild power with the use of epts. but if i use extend shields that could drop my sheild power by 10-30 which would also lower sheild resist. and again if it did whats the problem? there are extend doffs. tacts are the only class that have to deal with eating a system power while other classes dont. just see what happened if a tact had no wep drain. would be op and people yell on fourms abaout it. but dont you even touch the god mode dps healers.
side note .......
my healer resting power, weps 108/90 sheilds 65/25 engines 55/25 aux 91/60
extends 1 145.9 resist 20.5 et3 12920.5 aux2sif 3 8135.8 resist 44.7 he 1 13017.2 resist 18.9 tss2 1102.3 resist 18.2 all of this while having 1 less sif gen and 1 less sheild emiter while im stacking resist like crazy and doing healing while using faw 2, i never see my weps drop past 115-120. i can even take a bit more sheild power and bump it into my weps. so how do people come off and even try to say im asking for a nerf bat to healing? people want to have thier 125 wep power on 8 beams and not even have to touch the aux system with epta to keep aux up for heals.
come back to me with numbers and why its a bad thing of what im asking for.
again bring back sci to how it used to be. take off shared skills make it eat aux so they have to focus on aux so you dont get the sci magic wep power based ships they used to be
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
When I said "a high modifier" I was alluding to the whole number not just after the decimal point (if there is one).
I consider a shield mod of 1 to 1.15 high, and anything above that very high. Sorry if you got confused.
Ah, see I see 1 as the baseline with + or - modifiers to it, resulting in above 1 or below 1. I suppose I can see where if somebody started the baseline at the lowest possible and just considered positive modifiers how a 1 would be a high modifier in comparison....
Tom likes peanuts.
Jerry does not like peanuts.
Jerry's not trolling Tom by not liking peanuts nor is Tom trolling Jerry by liking them.
I suppose in your perfect world, everybody would pat you on the back, agree with you, and tell you how wonderful all your ideas are. It's the real world...people may disagree with you. They may like parts of what you say but not other parts. They may ask you to elaborate. They may point out what they see as flaws. You may agree with parts of what they say. You may disagree with others. OMFG, discussion?
Um...yeah.
edit: I could have worded this better. I had started to, forget the tab was open, so I'll just do a quick edit here.
I'm not trolling you. I think we agree on the issue, but we disagree on how to resolve it. Yeah, I'm getting caught up on the healing aspect; but that's because you mention that aspect of it the most. Perhaps I'm just seeing the word healer and lumping that in with healing - since the overall problem is what I'd call the munchkin tank mage wannabe. I agree that a person shouldn't be able to throw out all that healing while also keeping their Wep up to do damage. You want Aux/Shield subsystems to take a hit for those various abilities - I see that as neglecting that they're still keeping their Wep up. So it looks like you're focusing on the healing side. I'm looking at it from the point that if somebody's a healer, fine - let them heal - they shouldn't be doing the damage as well. So I'm looking at a bigger problem there. For those that are not trying to do the damage as well and are mainly focused on the healing side; they're going to get hit more by the changes. (I'm not a healer, but damn straight I appreciate what they do.) And that's kind of where I see where we've been going around and around...slipping off to the side every now and again, but always coming back to what I believe we see as the same overall problem.
edit2: I'll take a look through your post below, but I need to take a break from the forums for a bit. Safe flying, mate...
edit3: Damn, just saw what a wall of text my first edit was...meh, I may fix that later too.
Tom likes peanuts.
Jerry does not like peanuts.
Jerry's not trolling Tom by not liking peanuts nor is Tom trolling Jerry by liking them.
I suppose in your perfect world, everybody would pat you on the back, agree with you, and tell you how wonderful all your ideas are. It's the real world...people may disagree with you. They may like parts of what you say but not other parts. They may ask you to elaborate. They may point out what they see as flaws. You may agree with parts of what they say. You may disagree with others. OMFG, discussion?
Um...yeah.
well lets be honest here. things that are typed can be taken much different then how they are ment. im getting told this would nerf healing. yet i list my counters, say this isent about nerfing healing just about system power. then i list how healing numbers would not get hurt as badly. maybe some. just not sure. people are on fourms all the time talking about going over the 125 wep cap. i assume that should also be the same for other systems wither you use them or not. pick apart my post. i would be happy for for that. im still not sure how to break up a post like other so i just list my counters ina wall of text.
i still feel like people are missing the whole picture. just focusing on what they like in game. i understand that you say why touch other skills but yet leave tt, sci team, and et out of it. i say only because they were never dependent on system power tho i can be wrong with sci team. i am sure ive hit sci team at 0 sheild power. i ill not get sheilds but you still ahve the option to click it. i dont want to touch skills that arent dependet on system power since you do have skills such as vm. that will kill system power and thus cant click et depending on what system thats linked too. what would you even sugest to link that too? see just makes it over complated then it needs to be. tt with no crew loses its dps boost but at 0 in all systems i can still clear tact debuffs. see you still need counters in this game. sure i can run a beam and use target x. seems if i kill your aux while you are using tb it will stop it. but say if i hit he 1 and i got 7 secs left of it even if you proc my aux im sure i still get the full heal. tact skill gdf i believe dont scale either so if i hit it at 20 hp and get heals to get me to 100% i still get that same damage out put as if i was still at 20 hp.
now please lets not focus on heals but the picture as a whole. the healers main job is not to be at 125 wep power but to blance out wep power and aux correct? but we do get bats to help us. yet most every healer goes about 70 aux and trys to over cap wep power to keep 8 beams at around 125 wep power. seems they arent even driven to maintain that aux power above 70 at all times. sure you can have close to 125 in most systems so moot point. what about about inbetween thoes cycles? healers are still driven to keep wep power going. i havent met any healer yet that uses epta, just epts and eptw. if you did make aux skills eat aux power then healers would start looking to keep aux driven skills maintained at high levels as first pritory. no more dps healing giants. just keeping enought dps to make a differeence but with high heals. again i want to press it a bit more so you understand what im saying. atm healer have very high dps and very high healing. no draw backs whats so ever.
sci/sci used to do very good dps as well as using that sci magic. kinda like what we see with enginners atm. what i would like to see is either sci scourts that are about wep power going for sencor scans and the sub nuke as we see now. but if they wanted to go full sci/sci they have a reason too with out having to just load up on full heals going 110 aux just for that. in teh past a full sci/sci was able to boost wep power and still be awesome at debuffing targets and using every sci power in game with out penilties. zorena would use faw in the intrepid using cpb killing sheilds while semi ok on the dps with wep power while sending out heals. well if we gave sci its magic back then sci would focus on 125 aux 100% of the time just to sustain the sci magic they love to much and we wont have the uber sci resist we have now. think of aux as wep power. same thing. tacts need that wep power just to do its magic like we see now. well if we made sci like that i think sci players would be much happier and able to use its skills. heck we can even take off all thoes shared cool downs like they have now so they can pick and chose what skill they need at that moment. same way tacts need to use wep bats i can see sci using aux bats well just to sustain thier aux( sci version of dps) to hit tbr or ss or cpb or fbp. how can you complian at that point that sci is op? you cant because they are eating up there aux and not just shooting off powers at will. that means if you use say, cpb and now you want to use gw,( yeah remember how uber that used to be?) well aux power will dicate how uber it is. if your eating up that aux power ofc its not going to be as good. want to use that awesome psw? make sure that aux is in there for the full hit. might even solve the whole tact does sci better then sci.
now since you are linking powers to system power that could possibly solve the ams spamming, gp, theta users. sure they give up consoles to use it but when your hit by gp for 47 secs and then amsed, well that ams is not going to be as good since you ate some aux to use it. and that theta will be far worse since the ams took out even more aux. now you are pressed for a heal from he or tss. now i dont know who complains from jump console users, me personaly i love the console. not op its just unique. but if your on my tail i can just jump inback of you and still have a nice turn rate. well now if you use the jump console it just ate some engine power and if your a defiant and hes a jem, well guess what? that jump console just gave the jem the same turn rate of a defiant.
please i put alot of thought into this post and would be more then happy if you picked it apart, gave reasons why parts are either good or bad but please always explain why.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
well lets be honest here. things that are typed can be taken much different then how they are ment. im getting told this would nerf healing. yet i list my counters, say this isent about nerfing healing just about system power. then i list how healing numbers would not get hurt as badly. maybe some. just not sure. people are on fourms all the time talking about going over the 125 wep cap. i assume that should also be the same for other systems wither you use them or not. pick apart my post. i would be happy for for that. im still not sure how to break up a post like other so i just list my counters ina wall of text.
I explained part of where I saw the focus on healing my edit above.
i still feel like people are missing the whole picture. just focusing on what they like in game. i understand that you say why touch other skills but yet leave tt, sci team, and et out of it. i say only because they were never dependent on system power tho i can be wrong with sci team. i am sure ive hit sci team at 0 sheild power. i ill not get sheilds but you still ahve the option to click it. i dont want to touch skills that arent dependet on system power since you do have skills such as vm. that will kill system power and thus cant click et depending on what system thats linked too. what would you even sugest to link that too? see just makes it over complated then it needs to be. tt with no crew loses its dps boost but at 0 in all systems i can still clear tact debuffs. see you still need counters in this game. sure i can run a beam and use target x. seems if i kill your aux while you are using tb it will stop it. but say if i hit he 1 and i got 7 secs left of it even if you proc my aux im sure i still get the full heal. tact skill gdf i believe dont scale either so if i hit it at 20 hp and get heals to get me to 100% i still get that same damage out put as if i was still at 20 hp.
Oh yeah, I completely understand where what I want is massively complicated. It's a reason that I offered a simpler solution as well in regard to Wep not draining. The whole "If not one, then none." thing.
I think a lot of what you've laid out here points to a lot of broken aspects in the game. Things working when they shouldn't, etc, etc, etc. I believe that plays into the overall larger issue there - where people are able to "exploit" the way the game current works (WAI mode, meh) - and do things that simply do not seem reasonable. They'll argue that they are - but nobody wants somebody to take their cookies away, eh?
An analogy that comes to mind is the following:
There's a gun that still does damage even when it runs out of bullets. Thus, it's DPS over a period of time is too high. Instead of addressing that the gun's got no bullets, they lower the DPS. Later, they come along and make it so you have to reload the gun. Course, they tend not to address how they lowered the DPS.
It's that kind of thing that makes many discussions in games difficult...meh.
now please lets not focus on heals but the picture as a whole. the healers main job is not to be at 125 wep power but to blance out wep power and aux correct? but we do get bats to help us. yet most every healer goes about 70 aux and trys to over cap wep power to keep 8 beams at around 125 wep power. seems they arent even driven to maintain that aux power above 70 at all times. sure you can have close to 125 in most systems so moot point. what about about inbetween thoes cycles? healers are still driven to keep wep power going. i havent met any healer yet that uses epta, just epts and eptw. if you did make aux skills eat aux power then healers would start looking to keep aux driven skills maintained at high levels as first pritory. no more dps healing giants. just keeping enought dps to make a differeence but with high heals. again i want to press it a bit more so you understand what im saying. atm healer have very high dps and very high healing. no draw backs whats so ever.
To an extent here, it's clicked a little more. It's about implementing a system that requires the use of EPtA instead of just going with EPtW. I know you've mentioned that, but I got caught up in the healing aspect of the discussion. I definitely wasn't supporting that somebody should be able to get by keeping their Aux at a certain level while using EPtW to do the munchkin thing.
To an extent though, it's along the lines of why I went with those overall opportunity costs. Because as mentioned, some things work regardless of what's there - and - that needs to be fixed, imo.
I can definitely see where it may have come off that I was defending the munchkins, even though it was just a case of my looking at trying to bring the damage down in another way.
Of course though, "forcing" somebody to make the decision between EPtW and EPtA sounds pretty good on paper - but I have to wonder about the folks that are not actually trying to do energy weapon damage. Hrmm, in many cases though - the simple cooldowns/shared cooldowns based on the abilities they are using would allow for potential regen of the subsystem's power.
It would be the heavy users - multiple subsystem modified abilities that would have to address their builds to include EPtA - even if they've never considered using EPtW. EPtA would all but become required, no? I suppose that gets into the drain, recharge, etc. Hrmm...
sci/sci used to do very good dps as well as using that sci magic. kinda like what we see with enginners atm. what i would like to see is either sci scourts that are about wep power going for sencor scans and the sub nuke as we see now. but if they wanted to go full sci/sci they have a reason too with out having to just load up on full heals going 110 aux just for that. in teh past a full sci/sci was able to boost wep power and still be awesome at debuffing targets and using every sci power in game with out penilties. zorena would use faw in the intrepid using cpb killing sheilds while semi ok on the dps with wep power while sending out heals. well if we gave sci its magic back then sci would focus on 125 aux 100% of the time just to sustain the sci magic they love to much and we wont have the uber sci resist we have now. think of aux as wep power. same thing. tacts need that wep power just to do its magic like we see now. well if we made sci like that i think sci players would be much happier and able to use its skills. heck we can even take off all thoes shared cool downs like they have now so they can pick and chose what skill they need at that moment. same way tacts need to use wep bats i can see sci using aux bats well just to sustain thier aux( sci version of dps) to hit tbr or ss or cpb or fbp. how can you complian at that point that sci is op? you cant because they are eating up there aux and not just shooting off powers at will. that means if you use say, cpb and now you want to use gw,( yeah remember how uber that used to be?) well aux power will dicate how uber it is. if your eating up that aux power ofc its not going to be as good. want to use that awesome psw? make sure that aux is in there for the full hit. might even solve the whole tact does sci better then sci.
I can't really argue against any of that, since I'm not really against opportunity costs (I favor them, apparently too many, lol - but I favor them). I can see the focus on those things that are modified by a subsystem. Would you include resources though or just subsystem? That's where I asked about TT/ET/ST earlier. If you've sent crew to one of those, shouldn't that work like Boarding Party does (/cough) - as far as temporarily reducing your number of available crew for other things?
But even with just the subsystems - we'd have to include Evasive Maneuvers in that, no? After that's finished, shouldn't it reduce Engine for a period of time?
It's made that more difficult because of what's supposed to be modified by something and whether or not it actually is - taking into account that some of the things with multiple effects will have partial dependency on such things rather than complete.
now since you are linking powers to system power that could possibly solve the ams spamming, gp, theta users. sure they give up consoles to use it but when your hit by gp for 47 secs and then amsed, well that ams is not going to be as good since you ate some aux to use it. and that theta will be far worse since the ams took out even more aux. now you are pressed for a heal from he or tss. now i dont know who complains from jump console users, me personaly i love the console. not op its just unique. but if your on my tail i can just jump inback of you and still have a nice turn rate. well now if you use the jump console it just ate some engine power and if your a defiant and hes a jem, well guess what? that jump console just gave the jem the same turn rate of a defiant.
That's kind of where I did the thing where some would say I went overboard - I'm attaching a resource and opportunity cost to almost everything. Speaking of consoles, though, that's where I'll start getting into some of the more EVE-like discussion in regard to certain things. Adding plating/alloys, etc, well - you're looking at taking a hit to speed/turn. RCS? Have to figure that in some manner the ship's been weakened. In general, it's a general approach to balancing. If you get X, then you also get Y - where Y is some balancing effect for what you got with X. We see it at a certain level with a Cruiser having all that hull...and...having to wait for the universe to move around it rather than trying to turn - heh. I just see that happening in more areas.
There are too many things that, imo, have too little of a Y for the X they give. The trade-off is not there...much like the opportunity cost is missing with the subsystem stuff.
please i put alot of thought into this post and would be more then happy if you picked it apart, gave reasons why parts are either good or bad but please always explain why.
I apologize if some of my replies were short...being called a troll kind of ticked me off.
It's very rare that I troll. I'm trying to think of the last time that I got a warning on a forum for trolling. Flaming on the other hand...er... yeah, I tend to run afoul of that one a little too often here and there.
So I hope you haven't taken any great offense to anything I've said.
Comments
lemmy just kill this idea right now, with RP. wanna know why abilities have cooldowns? its because say the HE capacitor for example needs to literally cool down and draw energy from your auxiliary power EPS manifold, and when that capacitor's charge equalizes with the energy level in the conduit, you can use it again. this mechanic you want already exists, its the cool downs. the energy that it would drain is already drained into the device on your ship responsible for performing the ability.
how would they balance the magnitude of the drain, the rate of drain and recharge when there are so many variable and that effect it? you cant build this into the system, this would require a system built around it. and that would be fine for that system, but its far, far, far to late to rewrite this system.
if you think things are unbalanced now, and healing is op, damage is op, cc is op, everything is just to op and nothing feels right, well this isn't how to fix that. careful number tweaking in key modifiers for abilities are needed here and there, not a fundamental upheaval of what works a lot better then you apparently think.
oh. you want things to drain 10 power? then whats the point. now all this looks like a stupid waste of time. if you want a skill to drain energy, make it drain an actual amount lie BO does. im done with the pointless TRIBBLE.
problems:
1. people will self heal not team heal - if your extends suck power from your shields then you become squishy why would you ever do it?
2. Aux power heals like hazard emitters runs off aux, with current unbalance keeping heals up on focused targets would be stupidly hard to heal sub nuc and gas etc.
3. same with aux to sif etc deminishing the power would mean lesser heal strength
just seriously a bad idea overall due to everyone becoming more squishy and cant hold there own heals up.
what I propose:
perhaps forget the heal powers, look at other skills
for a sci when activating gravity well/tykens rift diminish the aux by 50 like beam overload for a few seconds let it respawn like bo. which would be a favourable idea, this would be a better move
Sci ships have been nerfed enough, although I m not opposed to this if the skill tree gets an overhaul *reads what he just typed....yeah as if*
Nadeon could be the skill to let engies run heals close to current levels, keep the current buff on weapon drain (or slightly modify) and make it significantly more effective for aux based heals.
This might even make eng/sci more viable with TSS3, HE3, ST3(?)
STill this is way outside of the scope of what cryptic is either willing or capable of implementing...so free popcorn for all
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
well i figured if they did something like this sci could make a come back. like fbp and cbp would be alot better because of the aux drain. they would buff thoes skills and people that did spec into insulators would not be much of a problem for sci users if they time thier skills around the full aux. like with a beam over load you just dont pop it when u can or you will just eat that dps. instead wait for aux levels to return to normal use another skill. sorry if i cant put my thoughts better with typing. its better when i can use my actually voice. i still think this will fix the p2w consoles on its own since say gp will take some aux away to use it or ams would take aux away to use it. sub jump my not be a problem but i think that should take some engine power just like quad cannons do.
Spreadsheets do not join the queue though.
edit: That came off snappier than I wanted it to (I was rushing to reply to another post and did not give this one the full thought that I should have done).
Perhaps I also lumped that statement in with those that believe a single dedicated DPS should be able to kill a single dedicated Heals. I don't. I believe in the BAF system as well as bringing more than just DPS to that particular scenario.
It's like the following:
Player A is doing X Damage to Player B who was expecting Y Damage. As Player B is waiting to respawn, they may switch out their resists for X Damage.
Player A is doing X Damage to Player B who was expecting X Damage. As Player A is waiting to respawn, do they switch out their weapons for Y Damage?
A min/max player would, imho. Perhaps that's the EVE in me. Switch ammo/crystals/missiles/etc...
No doubt there are other issues that have been pointed out in several threads about some of the other changes that have taken place - things that should have been tweaked instead of changed the way they were - which may have offered that same difference between dedicated DPS/dedicated Heals; but it would have included ways to reduce it. Drains are too easy to resist. Drain X was an issue, but rather than addressing Drain X...they dorked the Drain system - effin' the Hell out of Drain Y & Z. Meh...
If it just becomes a discussion about hating the "Tank Mage" because it's a different playstyle, then it's not really any different than some of those players telling folks L2Escort.
But anyway, just because something can be shown on a spreadsheet - it doesn't necessarily mean that's what's always queuing up or showing up for a scheduled fight. What about the other nuances? Are those broken? Do those need tweaking?
PvP's a beautiful evolving dance. It's never the same - ever changing. That's a big draw. For folks that always want the same outcome that they can find on a spreadsheet, there's always PvE for that...
It's not trolling to ask you to look beyond what you're focused on.
You're like this: --->*<---
I'm asking you to: --->**<---
That's not trolling. That's trying to avoid all the nonsense that's constantly seen in multiple games where folks get a bug up their TRIBBLE about Point A and ignore everything else.
You had a pretty nifty starting post - you gave some Eng/Sci examples, I gave some Tac - we agreed on parts, but for some reason you went batty about others.
It's just another nerf healing post - doing it in an illogical way at that. There are several good ideas out there on how to deal with those issues. They realize doing DPS should require effort. They realize that healing should require effort. They do not want it to be a mindless space TPS. Look 'em up - they tend to get posted in threads like this...
...though I still believe this could have been so much more based off of what you said originally later in your original post.
Perhaps for the same reasons launching a torp doesn't drain Wep? Perhaps the same reason that the countless abilities that should use some sort of power do not?
Shields are constantly on - but Shield never drops, eh? Surely running the shields 24/7 is going to put a drain on that power, right? No? Shield doesn't work that way? Engine doesn't work that way? Aux doesn't work that way?
Still, like I said earlier: if not one, then none.
Perhaps they need to drop the Wep drain and consider another means to reach the place they wanted to achieve by doing that.
But maybe it's just a case that the systems work differently. I'd still prefer the pool system. Yes, it would be harder to balance with all the variables. To me though, it would be more substantive. It would kill it for casuals, so it will never happen. I know that.
So it goes back to either the way it's working is because although it would appear the systems are the same, they're really different... or it's a case that the Wep drain should be dropped in favor of something else to reach that same point.
But you get called a troll for trying to point this out. Well, he called you a dunce. I got called a troll.
Have to look at the entire game - can't focus on just Player A while ignoring Player B. Have to make small changes, tweak things, and see how it goes - then continue from there. You get that. Lots of folks get that. OP doesn't get that.
*what the hell*
Balance. you call this escort fest balance?
not sure if trolling or braindead.
Oh btw: introducing a proper power system now is a wee bit like almost 3 effing years too late. so not to op.
If you're whining like the rest of the pve'rs about how escorts seem to contribute more in STF's because they are timed, that's to do with the mission mechanics not the ship mechanics. In pvp each class/ship does have its place, regardless of what any kirk/tac/cruisers claim otherwise.
Perhaps you could ask for better mission design where dps at speed isn't the key, rather than make sweeping statements incinuating some kind of escort
imbalance.
Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
Oh.
The escorts got defense buffs, even more offense (via nerfing the other ships defenses) and are now tanky enough to laugh at non esort grade damage while they pummel through other ships defenses. Heck, sci ships got better defenses than crusiers now sicne they wil lspam you with target subsystems and the usual sci-throw-your-keyboard-at-a-wall powers.
Want to know what cruiser got in terms of buffs over the course of the game?
a hefty nerf in beam array damage. Not a buff you say? *gasp*
Why was it nerfed? Becasue back then, escorts died to it to quickly.
Well escorts got several buffs. Tiem for cruisers to get their teeth back.
By in large, cruisers have a high shield modifier, highest hull and more engineering boff slots, i.e more potential survivability than escorts generally speaking.
If you give them "their teeth back" then you'll probably end up with a high survivability high dps ship that will outshine the others and become op.
Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
I did not want to respond to you as you are a troll but for the last time its not a nerf healing post. its about subsystem power being used for healing but never used. what if a tact had wep power but never a drain? atm a healer can go about 70 aux and get 10mill in healing and still pump out over caped dps. but i guess you think this is fair. yeah very fair that a healer does not have to even think about juggling system power and can bump all system power to 125 in each system with doffs.......
a sci can use every every aux based power and still heal with no drain. so lets leave out healing shall we? dont need to get peoples nipples in a bunch. so example that monkey brought up, beef up the grav well, cpb and fbp, but make it consume aux power. dont give a shared cool down. but now since it consumes aux they have to chose what they use. but again sci got the nerf bat taken off.
but again i dont see how aux based heals and sheild based heals would even be a nerf to a healer since eptx, epta anyone? nadion inversion? epts transfer? really what nerf heal?? oh i get it, you mean the dps nerf that a healer could possibly recieve since they need to be more aux focused.
but you totaly missed the point here. look at the p2w console trash. if thoes ate system power i think you would see less spam because it would force a player to chose what to use. oh look that player is about to pop, he uses gp, theta, ams goes full aux pops he1 back to wep power. if it ate the aux then that he1 would suck big time.
if you took time to look at the picture as a whole and not jump to OMG HEALING NERF WTF!!!!!!!! you would see that a player is force to chose what system power to focus on. thats why u have healers with 70 aux and over caped 125 system power for thoes 8 beams with no draw backs. why because at 70 aux power that he 1 on my oddy is a +13k heal. wtf 13k at 70 aux while fighting at over 125? why would i even chose to run eta at that point? i can just focus on eptw and maintain wep systems only. its so easy for a healer to have over 110 sheild power with the use of epts. but if i use extend shields that could drop my sheild power by 10-30 which would also lower sheild resist. and again if it did whats the problem? there are extend doffs. tacts are the only class that have to deal with eating a system power while other classes dont. just see what happened if a tact had no wep drain. would be op and people yell on fourms abaout it. but dont you even touch the god mode dps healers.
side note .......
my healer resting power, weps 108/90 sheilds 65/25 engines 55/25 aux 91/60
extends 1 145.9 resist 20.5 et3 12920.5 aux2sif 3 8135.8 resist 44.7 he 1 13017.2 resist 18.9 tss2 1102.3 resist 18.2 all of this while having 1 less sif gen and 1 less sheild emiter while im stacking resist like crazy and doing healing while using faw 2, i never see my weps drop past 115-120. i can even take a bit more sheild power and bump it into my weps. so how do people come off and even try to say im asking for a nerf bat to healing? people want to have thier 125 wep power on 8 beams and not even have to touch the aux system with epta to keep aux up for heals.
come back to me with numbers and why its a bad thing of what im asking for.
By and large, Cruisers do not have a shield modifier. They have the base. Escorts have a negative modifier and Sci have a positive modifier.
Yes, Cruisers generally have the highest hull (outside of Carriers). Yes, they're going to have more E-BOFFs (though one can argue how much additional survivability that gives one over T-BOFFs or S-BOFFs since things have been well on their way toward homogenization). And yes, Cruisers do not bother turning - rather they wait for the universe to turn around them.
Oh wait, you didn't mention that part.
Hrmm, come to think of it - I haven't seen any videos of a a Cruiser that tracts an Escort while the other Cruisers all mosey on around to the same facing to burn through... nor where Cruisers have facingbaited an Escort into rotating shields to the one side while another Cruiser moseys on around to a different facing. I tried to find a video of a Cruiser hugging the worst firing arc of their Escort target...but alas, I had no luck. I know if I keep looking, I'll find the video of the Cruiser that heaves itself around to change the facing that they're being attacked from faster than the Escort can stick to it.
Sorry...ahem, I'm just one of those guys that believes the issue is maneuverability of Escorts more than it is that they do too much damage or that Cruisers do not, etc, etc, etc. They fly like fighters - not the ships they are. IMO, the key to the balance is in that. They should be faster and more maneuverable than Cruisers, no doubt about that - but they shouldn't zip around like fighters. But then again, the fighters in STO zip around like a Mexican jumping bean caked in meth.
Still though, watch them fly around while in game or hit up YouTube, etc, etc, etc. Tell me how you get around picturing that every member of the crew would need to be strapped into a seat and that everything else would need to be put away, tied down, etc, etc, etc. Cause that's how they zip about...meh.
do you even know wtf your even talking about? sci oddy has a 1.1 sheild modifier. really man come back with some correct stuff.
im in the pvp ques every day, have been well over 400 days. that dont mean much. but i have a grasp on the game.
I called it another call for a healing nerf, because you keep going back to healing. When you're not talking about just healing, then it wouldn't be something I would consider a call for a healing nerf. Even as you do not call it a cry for a healing nerf, let us count some keywords in what you've said here: 12 times you mention heals/healer/healing.
You want opportunity costs for certain Eng and Sci abilities that are modified by one of the subsystems. I want opportunity costs for everything. That's not saying that it's not a case of wanting what you want or thinking that there is not a problem - it's going beyond what you want and looking at the overall problem. That you do not want there to be the opportunity cost on everything strikes me as odd... it comes off as being focused on something that's a personal peeve to you and not really caring about overall issues. I still fail to see how it is trolling to point that out and suggest a comprehensive overhaul to the system.
That being said, I know there's not a chance in Hell that they'll overhaul the system. Which is where I have also said that "If not one, then none!" If there's not going to be a drain for doing X & Y, then there should not be a drain on doing Z. They need to find another way to balance Z.
You keep skipping over my having said that, though - and continue to want to see drains just for certain Eng and Sci abilities.
It would appear your issue is with the ability for some people to play "Tank Mages" - and - that is an issue. However, it's not an issue that can be resolved in the manner which you have suggested. Frankly, I feel your suggestion would just further dumb down the game - resulting in it becoming little more than a space TPS.
Personally, I want more out of STO than that.
By and large... means, overall. Do you have a grasp of the English language?
Odyssey 1.15
Ody Tac 1.15
Ody Sci 1.1
Ody Op 1.15
Assault Refit 1
Dreadnought 1
Exploration Retro 1
Fleet Explor Retro 1.1
Fleet Star 1.1
Heavy Retro .85
Fleet Cruiser Retro .94
Star 1
Assault 1
Adv Heavy Refit 1
Mirror Star 1
Mirror Assault 1
Negh'Var 1
Vor'cha Retrp 1
Mirror Vor'cha 1
Bortas 1
Bor Com 1
Bor Tac 1
Bor War 1
K't'inga Retro .85
Fleet K't'inga Retro .94
Fleet Vor'cha Retro 1.1
Fleet Negh'Var 1.1
Galor 1.3
D'Kora 1.15
29 ships...
1.1: 5 ships
1.15: 4 ships
1.3: 1 ship
< 1: 4 ships
1: 15 ships
10 ships with a + modifier.
4 ships with a - modifier.
15 ships at base.
By and large, most Cruisers do not have a shield modifier. 19 of the 29 are at base or below.
Then go look at the Sci ships. Tada! Positive shield modifiers galore!
Then look at the Escorts, etc. Tada! Negative shield modifiers galore!
Hull - Cruiser.
Shield - Sci.
Maneuverability - Escort.
Okay, I'm starting to wonder here... am I being trolled?
let me stop you right there. what peeves? oh you mean how some bo powers are based off system power but never uses it? i would never touch tt, delta, omega, et, sci team. they dont use system based power so not sure what you are on about. but ty for turning this into a troll topic.
I consider a shield mod of 1 to 1.15 high, and anything above that very high. Sorry if you got confused.
Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
again bring back sci to how it used to be. take off shared skills make it eat aux so they have to focus on aux so you dont get the sci magic wep power based ships they used to be
Ah, see I see 1 as the baseline with + or - modifiers to it, resulting in above 1 or below 1. I suppose I can see where if somebody started the baseline at the lowest possible and just considered positive modifiers how a 1 would be a high modifier in comparison....
Tom likes peanuts.
Jerry does not like peanuts.
Jerry's not trolling Tom by not liking peanuts nor is Tom trolling Jerry by liking them.
I suppose in your perfect world, everybody would pat you on the back, agree with you, and tell you how wonderful all your ideas are. It's the real world...people may disagree with you. They may like parts of what you say but not other parts. They may ask you to elaborate. They may point out what they see as flaws. You may agree with parts of what they say. You may disagree with others. OMFG, discussion?
Um...yeah.
edit: I could have worded this better. I had started to, forget the tab was open, so I'll just do a quick edit here.
I'm not trolling you. I think we agree on the issue, but we disagree on how to resolve it. Yeah, I'm getting caught up on the healing aspect; but that's because you mention that aspect of it the most. Perhaps I'm just seeing the word healer and lumping that in with healing - since the overall problem is what I'd call the munchkin tank mage wannabe. I agree that a person shouldn't be able to throw out all that healing while also keeping their Wep up to do damage. You want Aux/Shield subsystems to take a hit for those various abilities - I see that as neglecting that they're still keeping their Wep up. So it looks like you're focusing on the healing side. I'm looking at it from the point that if somebody's a healer, fine - let them heal - they shouldn't be doing the damage as well. So I'm looking at a bigger problem there. For those that are not trying to do the damage as well and are mainly focused on the healing side; they're going to get hit more by the changes. (I'm not a healer, but damn straight I appreciate what they do.) And that's kind of where I see where we've been going around and around...slipping off to the side every now and again, but always coming back to what I believe we see as the same overall problem.
edit2: I'll take a look through your post below, but I need to take a break from the forums for a bit. Safe flying, mate...
edit3: Damn, just saw what a wall of text my first edit was...meh, I may fix that later too.
well lets be honest here. things that are typed can be taken much different then how they are ment. im getting told this would nerf healing. yet i list my counters, say this isent about nerfing healing just about system power. then i list how healing numbers would not get hurt as badly. maybe some. just not sure. people are on fourms all the time talking about going over the 125 wep cap. i assume that should also be the same for other systems wither you use them or not. pick apart my post. i would be happy for for that. im still not sure how to break up a post like other so i just list my counters ina wall of text.
i still feel like people are missing the whole picture. just focusing on what they like in game. i understand that you say why touch other skills but yet leave tt, sci team, and et out of it. i say only because they were never dependent on system power tho i can be wrong with sci team. i am sure ive hit sci team at 0 sheild power. i ill not get sheilds but you still ahve the option to click it. i dont want to touch skills that arent dependet on system power since you do have skills such as vm. that will kill system power and thus cant click et depending on what system thats linked too. what would you even sugest to link that too? see just makes it over complated then it needs to be. tt with no crew loses its dps boost but at 0 in all systems i can still clear tact debuffs. see you still need counters in this game. sure i can run a beam and use target x. seems if i kill your aux while you are using tb it will stop it. but say if i hit he 1 and i got 7 secs left of it even if you proc my aux im sure i still get the full heal. tact skill gdf i believe dont scale either so if i hit it at 20 hp and get heals to get me to 100% i still get that same damage out put as if i was still at 20 hp.
now please lets not focus on heals but the picture as a whole. the healers main job is not to be at 125 wep power but to blance out wep power and aux correct? but we do get bats to help us. yet most every healer goes about 70 aux and trys to over cap wep power to keep 8 beams at around 125 wep power. seems they arent even driven to maintain that aux power above 70 at all times. sure you can have close to 125 in most systems so moot point. what about about inbetween thoes cycles? healers are still driven to keep wep power going. i havent met any healer yet that uses epta, just epts and eptw. if you did make aux skills eat aux power then healers would start looking to keep aux driven skills maintained at high levels as first pritory. no more dps healing giants. just keeping enought dps to make a differeence but with high heals. again i want to press it a bit more so you understand what im saying. atm healer have very high dps and very high healing. no draw backs whats so ever.
sci/sci used to do very good dps as well as using that sci magic. kinda like what we see with enginners atm. what i would like to see is either sci scourts that are about wep power going for sencor scans and the sub nuke as we see now. but if they wanted to go full sci/sci they have a reason too with out having to just load up on full heals going 110 aux just for that. in teh past a full sci/sci was able to boost wep power and still be awesome at debuffing targets and using every sci power in game with out penilties. zorena would use faw in the intrepid using cpb killing sheilds while semi ok on the dps with wep power while sending out heals. well if we gave sci its magic back then sci would focus on 125 aux 100% of the time just to sustain the sci magic they love to much and we wont have the uber sci resist we have now. think of aux as wep power. same thing. tacts need that wep power just to do its magic like we see now. well if we made sci like that i think sci players would be much happier and able to use its skills. heck we can even take off all thoes shared cool downs like they have now so they can pick and chose what skill they need at that moment. same way tacts need to use wep bats i can see sci using aux bats well just to sustain thier aux( sci version of dps) to hit tbr or ss or cpb or fbp. how can you complian at that point that sci is op? you cant because they are eating up there aux and not just shooting off powers at will. that means if you use say, cpb and now you want to use gw,( yeah remember how uber that used to be?) well aux power will dicate how uber it is. if your eating up that aux power ofc its not going to be as good. want to use that awesome psw? make sure that aux is in there for the full hit. might even solve the whole tact does sci better then sci.
now since you are linking powers to system power that could possibly solve the ams spamming, gp, theta users. sure they give up consoles to use it but when your hit by gp for 47 secs and then amsed, well that ams is not going to be as good since you ate some aux to use it. and that theta will be far worse since the ams took out even more aux. now you are pressed for a heal from he or tss. now i dont know who complains from jump console users, me personaly i love the console. not op its just unique. but if your on my tail i can just jump inback of you and still have a nice turn rate. well now if you use the jump console it just ate some engine power and if your a defiant and hes a jem, well guess what? that jump console just gave the jem the same turn rate of a defiant.
please i put alot of thought into this post and would be more then happy if you picked it apart, gave reasons why parts are either good or bad but please always explain why.
I explained part of where I saw the focus on healing my edit above.
Oh yeah, I completely understand where what I want is massively complicated. It's a reason that I offered a simpler solution as well in regard to Wep not draining. The whole "If not one, then none." thing.
I think a lot of what you've laid out here points to a lot of broken aspects in the game. Things working when they shouldn't, etc, etc, etc. I believe that plays into the overall larger issue there - where people are able to "exploit" the way the game current works (WAI mode, meh) - and do things that simply do not seem reasonable. They'll argue that they are - but nobody wants somebody to take their cookies away, eh?
An analogy that comes to mind is the following:
There's a gun that still does damage even when it runs out of bullets. Thus, it's DPS over a period of time is too high. Instead of addressing that the gun's got no bullets, they lower the DPS. Later, they come along and make it so you have to reload the gun. Course, they tend not to address how they lowered the DPS.
It's that kind of thing that makes many discussions in games difficult...meh.
To an extent here, it's clicked a little more. It's about implementing a system that requires the use of EPtA instead of just going with EPtW. I know you've mentioned that, but I got caught up in the healing aspect of the discussion. I definitely wasn't supporting that somebody should be able to get by keeping their Aux at a certain level while using EPtW to do the munchkin thing.
To an extent though, it's along the lines of why I went with those overall opportunity costs. Because as mentioned, some things work regardless of what's there - and - that needs to be fixed, imo.
I can definitely see where it may have come off that I was defending the munchkins, even though it was just a case of my looking at trying to bring the damage down in another way.
Of course though, "forcing" somebody to make the decision between EPtW and EPtA sounds pretty good on paper - but I have to wonder about the folks that are not actually trying to do energy weapon damage. Hrmm, in many cases though - the simple cooldowns/shared cooldowns based on the abilities they are using would allow for potential regen of the subsystem's power.
It would be the heavy users - multiple subsystem modified abilities that would have to address their builds to include EPtA - even if they've never considered using EPtW. EPtA would all but become required, no? I suppose that gets into the drain, recharge, etc. Hrmm...
I can't really argue against any of that, since I'm not really against opportunity costs (I favor them, apparently too many, lol - but I favor them). I can see the focus on those things that are modified by a subsystem. Would you include resources though or just subsystem? That's where I asked about TT/ET/ST earlier. If you've sent crew to one of those, shouldn't that work like Boarding Party does (/cough) - as far as temporarily reducing your number of available crew for other things?
But even with just the subsystems - we'd have to include Evasive Maneuvers in that, no? After that's finished, shouldn't it reduce Engine for a period of time?
It's made that more difficult because of what's supposed to be modified by something and whether or not it actually is - taking into account that some of the things with multiple effects will have partial dependency on such things rather than complete.
That's kind of where I did the thing where some would say I went overboard - I'm attaching a resource and opportunity cost to almost everything. Speaking of consoles, though, that's where I'll start getting into some of the more EVE-like discussion in regard to certain things. Adding plating/alloys, etc, well - you're looking at taking a hit to speed/turn. RCS? Have to figure that in some manner the ship's been weakened. In general, it's a general approach to balancing. If you get X, then you also get Y - where Y is some balancing effect for what you got with X. We see it at a certain level with a Cruiser having all that hull...and...having to wait for the universe to move around it rather than trying to turn - heh. I just see that happening in more areas.
There are too many things that, imo, have too little of a Y for the X they give. The trade-off is not there...much like the opportunity cost is missing with the subsystem stuff.
I apologize if some of my replies were short...being called a troll kind of ticked me off.
It's very rare that I troll. I'm trying to think of the last time that I got a warning on a forum for trolling. Flaming on the other hand...er... yeah, I tend to run afoul of that one a little too often here and there.
So I hope you haven't taken any great offense to anything I've said.
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