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My 2 cents on subsystem power
broken1981
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
ok first off im not sure how to even start this.
so my thoughts on systems power is wep power gets eaten but yet i take my sheild power down to boost other systems while i use epts to boost that system. just use faw or rapid fire and see how that wep power gets eaten. use extend sheilds what happends to sheild power? nothing. use aux 2 sif, he, or tss and aux power does not get affected.
what i sugess is that any bo skill that runs on that power should lower that system. then people cant complain about the extends circle jerking and cross healing or even sci power usage in game. cpb got a nerf as well as other sci power for that matter. if they did drain aux that would most likly have blanced it out.
so my thoughts on systems power is wep power gets eaten but yet i take my sheild power down to boost other systems while i use epts to boost that system. just use faw or rapid fire and see how that wep power gets eaten. use extend sheilds what happends to sheild power? nothing. use aux 2 sif, he, or tss and aux power does not get affected.
what i sugess is that any bo skill that runs on that power should lower that system. then people cant complain about the extends circle jerking and cross healing or even sci power usage in game. cpb got a nerf as well as other sci power for that matter. if they did drain aux that would most likly have blanced it out.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
Neya@Mr.Skull wrote:I can throw [Fireworks] at you and hope you catch on fire and burn to death lol
Post edited by broken1981 on
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Makes sense to me and could see a revive of the old Science effectiveness since using a Sci power at full Aux could mean that you lose a great deal of Aux temporarily to use other abilities.
R.I.P
Long have i believed when a sci skill is used.. ie. tykens, it consumes pwr to use.
The same with aux heals and the same with xTend shields.
If u put out a tykens, followed by a hazEmit, followed by a xfer shields i see no logical reason as to why this causes no drain on your sys, where as if i beamOverload it does.
CRF would lose the damage bonus and use more Wep as additional shots were fired - each doing less damage because of less Wep.
APD would eat Wep to increase damage resistance and each time you were attacked, you'd lose more Wep as it applied the debuff to the attacker.
Etc, etc, etc...
...hrmmm, could make the game interesting.
i am not sure where you came up with this since tt is not a subsystem based bo skill. nither is et or sci team.so thoes skills would not be affected.
as it is crf does lose damage since you eat wep power as its being used. omega is boosted by engine power so im not sure how that would even get affected. what i am saying is aux based heals and shield based heals such as extends should eat system power. sci power like cpb should eat aux ect....... that in itself would fix sci
Hrmm, I misread what you said later here then:
"what i sugess is that any bo skill that runs on that power should lower that system."
Going back to what you were saying earlier, you're actually talking about those abilities that have their "output" modified by a particular subsystem. Which makes sense, given the opening about weapon power.
However, what I said makes sense as well. Where is the power coming from for the two cleanses and shield distribution? Given what you've said here about ET/ST - again, where would the power come from for those?
No, they're not being modified by a subsystem - but they're using additional energy.
One might say that the energy use is minimal or the default EPS restores it so quickly that it's not noticeable; but then again - one could make that argument for the abilities that have their output modified by a subsystem.
I tend to land on the wrong side with many people in many discussions (STO and elsewhere) because of a desire for additional realism in games. The energy use in this case would be such a case.
Then again, I try hard (very hard) not to think about the instant deployments of those TT/ET/ST teams.
So yeah, I went with what you had said later - thinking along the lines of everything "using some resource"...so everything would actually use some resource.
edit: In a sense, thinking about it further - given just how many things that should use some form of power but do not - one could make the case that energy weapons should not either. If not one, then none...that sort of thing.
Attack Patterns would draw from Engine power.
R.I.P
It's really not a bad idea, but it would introduce a whole new set of variables to take into consideration with every power that is introduced, as well as all powers currently available. It would all come down to Cost Of Opportunity to use a certain power, only now instead of having to "only" factor in existing variables such as cooldowns, seating limitations, skill investments, firing arcs, gear focus, and more... we also add "Power Cost" into the mix.
I feel like we're finally starting to get a good handle on the balance of the game's combat mechanics, and you wanna saunter up and throw a wrench in the gears.
I had no idea PvPers were so masochistic. =p
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
We're still here, aren't we
I kid
This is a good idea that's been discussed in the past. This would help balance healing and add a great dynamic to the game
ya... that other subsytem drain isn't terribly needed imo. for weapons with a high rate of fire its 1 thing but for skills you can use every 15 seconds to 2 minutes its a huge drain of ability effectiveness. think of how many skills you stack at once, and they all drain power? you would be better off not using your skills half the time. the poor pugs, they wouldn't know what to do.
if your a healer and you see someone in trouble and unless you spam heals as fast as possible he dies, this new drain would kill your effectiveness. you hit him with ES, AtS, HE, and TSS. the first few heals would be fine, but then your aux will have been so gutted that your healing potential is in the toilet
I disagree Yes if done with 1000x the care and QnA of what anything else released in STO up to date has seen before
Increase the updtime to nadeon, or adjust its stats, and sounds like engies finally have a niche, while everybody else should think a lot more careful about their timing .....
can't say i completely dislike the idea
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
well i think all aux based powers should draw energy from that systems as well as extend sheilds draw energy from the sheilds systems.
tt, sci team, et, omega, alphas, ect would not be affected. but for people that use energy weps to only be penilized for that system is kinda unfair. i think anyone that uses a subsystem for power should draw from it. sure the heals or powers would take a hit but that would keep inline with faw, crf, cpb, grav wells, extends, he, tss. but thanks for atleast looking at this thred.
what you are saying makes no sence at all. tt does not relie on subsystem power, nother does et or sci team.. so sorry i did not take time to read your whole post since i just needed to stop at this point. that way you can understand what im saying.
well tt does, 4.8 tt1 with no crew
There's a difference between saying something is modified by a subsystem power level and saying that it does not rely on some form of power. You're focused on those abilities modified by a subsystem - which would likely explain why it does not make sense to you...
...perhaps if you had taken the time to read my reply, then you would not have needed to reply in the manner you did.
That's modified by the available crew. It doesn't temporarily remove crew as they're tasked with carrying out their respective new duties. It generates phantom crew.
Send a Boarding Part (/cough) - and you temporarily lose crew.
TT/ET/ST... they're still available.
No, they're not a subsystem - but they are a modifier. The fewer crew, the less things work (as you've kindly pointed out with TT).
So much like using a weapon reduces the next use of a weapon because of the loss of weapon power and much like you wish to have abilities modified by aux power reduce available aux power for other abilities...one could say that abilities modified by crew should use crew and reduce the available number of crew for other abilities (including passives) that are modified by crew.
But as has been somewhat mentioned in this thread, some of us might be mistaking this game for Spreadsheet Trek Online... which I can see. Part of STO's charm is in how it is and requiring folks to sign up with University of Phoenix to be able to play is pushing it...
Well I agree with you first off that adding such a system would be a major change and most likely introduce more issues then it solved.
Having said that I understand where the thinking is coming in for sure. This is likely how things should have ran from the start. As it there is a real frustration with sci in general. Its not that sci is bad right now, imo. Its more that all the sci that works requires zero aux really. Out side of heals anyway.
In the end it all goes back to that skill tree setup power insulators in tier 2 was a massive mistake that has pretty much killed science. I feel for you cause there is no way to change that now with out having every STF running pvper in the game want to kill you... so this is what I would do to make sure they don't want to kill you.
1) Take the Borg Neutralizers in PvE and 1/4 there effective drain. This will mean PvE players that don't have 6 points in Power insulators won't be wanting to lynch you.
2) Take Inertial Dampeners and swap it in the skill tree with Power insulators. This makes it cheap to spec against tractor beams and holds... which NO one will have issue with. Tractor beam is well known as the sci skill to take if you don't want to spend points to buff it. Its why it ends up on so many escorts. At the same time it makes it more expensive to fully spec against all the sci that we pretty much all agree has become useless due to a tier 2 skill tree counter.
3) Add a skill point bonus system for counters ONLY... working like this
Say right now at FULL 9 points insulators provides a 50% resist.
I hope I describe this right here goes. Right now the bar has diminishing returns... meaning 6 points gives more per point then the next 3 if you go full 9. What if you just flipped that around for resists.
Meaning that the more points you spend the more Reward you get from the system.
So the first 3 points would give you the same bonus you get now from points 7 8 and 9...
The last 3 points in the skill tree would give you the same benifit you get now from 1 2 and 3.
This would make it easier to spec well into effects then the counters.... it would reduce the amount of resist in general out there to skills.... will out removing the ability to spec a pretty solid resist against anything if you are willing to trade the skill points to do it.
I am not sure how easy coding the 3rd idea would be... however I don't think it should be that hard... it simply an inversion of the code that exists. The second idea only works if you guys are willing to look at the PvE issues with shield neuts. With out those 2 changes together you would have 80% of the game wanting to kill you.
However I do think that all 3 of those things should be doable and would pretty much put sci right where it should be agian... and frankly we are all sick of being scrambled and Vmed as they are the only sci skills that are not a complete joke... I would sort of welcome a little shield stripping again. lol
look i did not read the rest of your post till now. i did not read at that point since there was no need to go on. get hit by vm you can use tt sci team et since they are not subsystem power based. but he, extends, aux 2 sif, tss is. so sorry if im done with you since you are trying to totaly ignore my point. if you want a more complexed system make your own thred. this isent about anything else but subsystem power and ablities related to it.
on a differnt note if this system does get implemted then that means heals will scale with aux. a good example would be the way he works. go full aux on an escourt hit he go back to wep power. you do get the full heal. go wep power hit your buffs point and shoot, go full aux what do u think would happen? this just seems very wrong to me. things needs to scale.
I don't understand how u can say that weapon pwr drain is acceptable yet aux or shield drain is not on the basis of a 15sec charge. BeamOverload, Rapid Fire ect. are also on a 15sec cool-down. Your contradicting yourself. Do you hold off on using theese tact skills on the basis of drain? I think not.
Aux2SIF by definition implies putting Aux pwr into another sys, yet Aux itself doesn't drain. Thats not "AUX2"SIF.. It may as well just b called SIF based on the current mechanic.
Now the drain of wep prw adds an added mechanic to gameplay and imo. is far from crippling like u imply.
Allow me to point out the current mechanic with, say HazEmit. The heal received is based of aux pwr at the start of the skill.. if i then decrease aux pwr, the heal remains as potent.
Its entirely unrealistic.
Xtend shields is another example. A while back i am sure this skill was based off current shield pwr, now its jus as pwrful with 1 shield pwr as with 125..! And 2 giv some1 your shields cost u none..! Where as in comparison my shield resistance improves with xtra pwr.
Now pls understand i am not saying nerf sci skills. I am just simply pointing out that it is unreal that weps face drain and every other sys is immune to this mechanic.
Allow me to put the question to you. Do u think drain on wep pwr is crippling, shud it b removed?
ps. Heals are overpowered! Boost the hull points. Nerf the heals!
And perhaps when somebody can drop out 5-7+ HE on a 1-2s CD... such a system will get implemented.
This is just one of those things, eh? I mean, seriously, you can go to the forums for almost any game and see the following:
Damage is OP - we need more heals!
Healing is OP - we need more damage!
Yes, from the same game.
And yes, if you look around these forums - it's no different.
Lol...this is true. It's all subjective. In an STF, dps is better to have than healing. In pvp, premade teams bring 3-4 healers and 1-2 dps. If dps was better, teams would load 3-4 on a team and just overwhelm their healers. This has been shown to fail time and again. It's why pve'rs are always crying for a buff to cruiser damage. In there gameplay, short of no win, an escort is almost always going to be a better ship to bring to any mission they go on. The only real place for a cruiser or a sci to really shine is in pvp.
read my post again, i gave good reason for my position. weapons and abilities are 2 different things first of all, having abilities drain like weapons wouldn't directly translate at all. you take measures to mitigate BO drain, a single EPS consoles helps tremendously and a weapon bat is helpful too. also you can over cap weapons power to hell and back, using 8 energy weapons is ideal, their combined drain is no longer a factor to worry about.
leave your RP reasons out of this, the game barley functions as a balanced entity as it is now without arbitrary reasons for fundamentally changing it.
healing would be DESTROYED by this. should using HE instantly drain aux by 20 or so, and for how long? the skills entire duration? what about TSS? and then AtS? you couldn't use more then 1 at a time, and you would have to wait for the energy to recharge. if all these skills drained power like BO, no one would have a choice other then to slot as many EPS consoles as they could, without it every ability you use would gut the effectiveness of the ability you use next. and since its not a weapon, you cant just use it again 4 seconds later so your basically constantly using it. again, abilities are nothing like weapons. the idea is pants on head TRIBBLE.
except its a fact that a fully min/maxed dedicated healer has twice the healing potential then fully min/maxed damage dealer has damage potential.
The other side if it did have adequate rewards to get people involved in it... You would just see an increase in AFK'rs and people using cheats. So unless there is a major influx of GM's or safeguards against this I don't see PvP getting any better other than trying to play musical chairs with different powers and then the idea of adding more things to the system that will cause even more bugs than we have now that go unfixed. So really adding new mechanics and changing powers isn't really going to get the job done since there has to be more of a lure for people to go into pvp with rewards and then the company doing all they can to make sure that PvP would stay fun and legit.
dude you are a troll. maybe go into pvp one day so you can see my side of things. dude a healer can get 10 mill healing in a match easy while still getting good dps. just ask my man mako
ok can we leave the world rp'er out of this? ide really hate to out right attack your post for comming off so noobish. a player such as yourself should actually look at the picture as a whole and see that it would be a big improvemt over what we have atm. escourt that can tank because of borg procs, sdo, or even use aux to bat doffsx3 and still hit he when needed. a healer can use 3 of thoes doffs and still heal a team so what are you on about? you talk all the time about going over wep cap as it is correct? dont you think you can over cap other systems? what about doffs that help gain extra energy into subsystems? warp core doffs? the bat doffs? what about engy capt skills like nadion inversion and epts transfere? maybe, just maybe then engys will actually think, do i go epta over eptw. i fail to see how this will effect or even possible cripple a healer. lets drop the beam over load on a tact. we use crf ever 15 secs. does that wep drain stop us from getting over 500k to 1 mill in dps during a match? i think most of you guys just want super healers in god mode doing dps as well. using extend sheilds should lower your sheild power as well as resistence. wtf you are giving some of your sheild to another guy. to solve that you even have an extends doff. and even when they nerf it its still good. you have et that dont even take a subsystem power to use. it might even fix sci as well since some of the powers dont even use aux such as psw and vm and sci team. so powers such as grav well and cpb and psw can get the nerf bat taken off.
Simply put... WHY IS WEP POWER THE ONLY SYS TO DRAIN???
the way i see it 5 skills, et, aux 2 sif, he, tss, and extends. so use extends it lowered a bit of your sheild power say by 10 and lowered a bit of resist. OMG!!!!!! thats why we have epts. next in line is aux 2 sif, goes to escourt with full heal, then comes he, still fairly strong then tss but since healer did not use aux bat its the least strongest and the full heal from et.
so as an example aux 2 sif was a full heal but took out say 10 aux. he takes out 10 aux depending on skill level. tss took 10 aux depending on skill level. or maybe system based skills are just all 10 aux not depening on skill level. and sheild system power would take 10 power for that use. explain how that would cripple a ship again? every healer uses epts and eptw. ive even see sci ships that go full 125 to aux use epts x2 and eptw x2. sci powers that use aux should get aux drain. just like extends should use sheild power just like energy weps should get wep power drain. yeah lol cripple a healer. seems some 1 is wearing their TRIBBLE hat tonight. guess engys dont have nadion inversion and eps transfere as well as they cant carry batteries.