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"The cloak was always meant to disengage when a contact pops up" Pure BS BS

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  • tancrediivtancrediiv Member Posts: 728 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    That's because of how the missions and code are designed. Either everyone gets an alpha strike or no one does. It's not really workable to have it designed for some people to get without branching mission objectives every time use of a cloak is possible.

    Now... That could be done in theory but it would involve creating mission branches that trigger for certain ships and not the actual cloak power.

    Of course. And I agree. So make those options happen. But don't break a fundamental canon ability like cloaking just to appease some and annoy others. Make it work in a logical and reasonable manner that makes sense, not break it to uselessness or turn it into a "flavor" ability. But Cryptic should not be taking the lazy approach on a bug, then say working as intended when they can't find a solution.

    I paid good money for a B'rel retrofit only weeks ago. Now we see the pivotal ability, the enhanced battle cloak, the one thing that allows a ship like this to be effective with it having less weapons, hull and shields than same tier Fed and KDF vessels, less effective because of cloaking changes.

    This TRIBBLE will stop if they want people to keep playing and keep purchasing z store items.

    Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER

    Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
  • zebularzebular Member Posts: 729 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Remember about a year ago when the cloak broke and Dan said "we have to go map by map to fix it, will take a long time but it will get done" and now he says "oh it was always meant to be like that" this really makes me mad as a KDF player who uses cloak i Kerrat.

    Ps. This is my first post in over two years I though i need to expose this lie, as if we don't remember.

    I am astonished as well. I distinctly remember it being stated, very early on after release, that this was a bug and they they were looking for a way to fix it. Now.. all of a sudden they are trying to say that it is intended?

    Whether this is indeed intended or a cover-up-bug, either way this "feature" is bloody annoying and should be removed. There are plenty of episodes and movies where cloaked ships are able to hail and communicate with other ships...

    This "feature" of being uncloaked when hailing mission objectives needs to be removed... or fixed. Since I do not buy this recent calling of it "intended," I say fix it please.

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  • syberghostsyberghost Member Posts: 1,711 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    When Dan said it's a bug and they have to map by map to fix it, he meant they have to go map by map to put in the minicoms. Which is exactly what he said this time, only in more detail this time.
    Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
  • dylantrinidydylantrinidy Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    So your telling me what he meant to say almost two years ago you must think we are idiots
  • deadspacex64deadspacex64 Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    And that just means manually changing non-essential messages to flyover dialogue.

    If it spawns an enemy, you'll still get decloaked. If it marks the beginning of a new phase of a match, you get decloaked.

    Cloak is intended as a novelty option, the equivalent of maybe an ensign BO power. It's not SUPPOSED to be the anchor of a playstyle.

    yes it can be an anchor to a playstyle, and strategy wth are you smoking? it's a cornerstone of the kdf and romulan tactics...if it was so unimportant why would either races even use it? apologists irritate me. there's no defense for bad coding. even worse recognizing it as a bug and never properly fixing it. the game relies entirely to much on dialogue triggers as it is. 'click this to proceed' every fracking minute.

    perhaps i'm overly touchy about pop-ups...rerunning boldly they rode for phased gear...but it's not just that mission, cure is a major irritation playing as kdf because i have to wait for that comm to pop up at the end before i can cloak, else that breaks it. pop-ups in other missions breaking cloak and guess what? no time to recloak cause it's on cd now.

    and before someone or this person comes back 'it's too difficult the codes too complex' BS, done right in the first place there would have been no problems. such as the cloak can only be broken by taking damage in the case of everything but enhanced, and captains orders to decloak. fracking simple eh?

    and instead of 'fixing' missions that got screwed up because of cloak they should have taken it into account when creating the missions that players will CLOAK. seriously...it's like there is zero foresight at cryptic HQ. who's supposed to be the guy or committee in charge of covering all the angles? doing a lousy job of it. and continuing to do a lousy job of it...at least you're consistent.
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  • syberghostsyberghost Member Posts: 1,711 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    So your telling me what he meant to say almost two years ago you must think we are idiots

    No, I'm telling you that when they introduced minicoms, and shortly after that Dan said they had to make per-map fixes for this, and then he comes back and says evidently some people misunderstood him because he wasn't very clear, and here's what he meant, you can put two and two together or you can assume that it was a complete coincidence that mincoms happened right before he said there was a fix that had to be implemented per map, and minicom are a fix that has to be implemented per map.

    I'm sure you're right; it's a complete coincidence, there never was a fix, it's just a happy accident that minicoms don't break cloak.

    This is why Dan doesn't talk on the forums anymore.
    Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
  • adon333adon333 Member Posts: 304
    edited September 2012
    yes it can be an anchor to a playstyle, and strategy wth are you smoking? it's a cornerstone of the kdf and romulan tactics...if it was so unimportant why would either races even use it? apologists irritate me. there's no defense for bad coding. even worse recognizing it as a bug and never properly fixing it. the game relies entirely to much on dialogue triggers as it is. 'click this to proceed' every fracking minute.

    perhaps i'm overly touchy about pop-ups...rerunning boldly they rode for phased gear...but it's not just that mission, cure is a major irritation playing as kdf because i have to wait for that comm to pop up at the end before i can cloak, else that breaks it. pop-ups in other missions breaking cloak and guess what? no time to recloak cause it's on cd now.

    and before someone or this person comes back 'it's too difficult the codes too complex' BS, done right in the first place there would have been no problems. such as the cloak can only be broken by taking damage in the case of everything but enhanced, and captains orders to decloak. fracking simple eh?

    and instead of 'fixing' missions that got screwed up because of cloak they should have taken it into account when creating the missions that players will CLOAK. seriously...it's like there is zero foresight at cryptic HQ. who's supposed to be the guy or committee in charge of covering all the angles? doing a lousy job of it. and continuing to do a lousy job of it...at least you're consistent.

    /agree You couldn't have stated it any more clearly.
    AND the truth is, this bug is just hard to fix.... thats all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


    Yeah, that's right.
  • dylantrinidydylantrinidy Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    oh well the point is two years later its not what customers want and is annoying most people who use it everybody knows its not right
  • trek21trek21 Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    oh well the point is two years later its not what customers want and is annoying most people who use it everybody knows its not right
    But despite the fact we're customers, we can't get everything we ask for. Just because we don't get it doesn't mean we have to the right to call it wrong.

    You can say they think we're idiots for this being a coincidence, or even a lie... but while you're doing so, things are going on behind their doors.

    I will wait for the inevitable result of Dan's post, instead of making assumptions.

    My two cents.
    Was named Trek17.

    Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
  • dylantrinidydylantrinidy Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    a bridge officer telling me something should not decloak my ship its not only wrong but stupid how many times in star trek did a bridge officer speaking decloak the ship. just picture it a Klingon officer says something to the captain and the bop's cloak goes down so do cloaks sense your voice now? the fact that they have asked us to compile a list of missions where contacts should not decloak your ship shows us its not right.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    just picture it a Klingon officer says something to the captain and the bop's cloak goes down so do cloaks scene your voice now?

    LOL. That officer would go out the nearest airlock, like someone else suggested. :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • claransaclaransa Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I think the thing is, PvE is NOT designed around the idea of cloak providing an alpha strike. It would potentially break "Blood of The Empire" if you got one.

    Alpha strike via cloak can cause missions to be incompletable.

    I'm not sure how an alpha strike via cloak would cause a mission to be incompleteable but I'll take you at your word. Regardless, the way cloaking works in STO is counter intuitive to what people expect, which is why multiple posts on this topic are popping up on the forums.

    I would like to see an in game tutorial on how cloaking is supposed to work, as this would at least give us a guideline on how to bug report the missions that are adversely affected by the poor way cloaking was implemented in the game.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    claransa wrote: »
    I'm not sure how an alpha strike via cloak would cause a mission to be incompleteable ...

    It shouldn't. I've noticed that some NPCs have health protection. Meaning, that I'll alpha them and get them to 0 health, but they still won't die and the mission will continue on as normal.

    If they can do that for some NPCs, then there's no reason they can't apply that to other NPCs.

    The alpha strike excuse is bull.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • adon333adon333 Member Posts: 304
    edited September 2012
    snoge00f wrote: »
    It shouldn't. I've noticed that some NPCs have health protection. Meaning, that I'll alpha them and get them to 0 health, but they still won't die and the mission will continue on as normal.

    If they can do that for some NPCs, then there's no reason they can't apply that to other NPCs.

    The alpha strike excuse is bull.

    /Amen... lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


    Yeah, that's right.
  • jtoney3448jtoney3448 Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    If the cloak is soooo hard to fix that they actually have to lie and say its not a bug why not i donno write new code and make a new cloak?!

    It would be easier to write a new code similar to the current cloak that provides the same function, uses same stat modifiers but works on its own set of code not linked to maps. Then simply change all the exsisting ships and npcs to use that new code by using a redirect.

    There is no reason that the cloak should have ANYTHING to do with the map or npc dialog. As it is its worthless. In pvp/pve the cloak bugs and doesnt uncloak when told to sometimes but you are visable with no shields and weapons offline. Then it opts to disengage randomly almost depending on maps when one of our crew says something. We arent in subs here doing a silent running! There isnt air or water in vaccum of space to transfer sound vibrations any how!
  • fourxgamerfourxgamer Member Posts: 245 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Maybe nobody "owns" the cloak anymore, they may have all resigned. That's why he needs a list from us cause they really don't know!

    Anybody that has ever flown a bop, and is a dev, should be all over this. The word that came to mind while reading his response was "disingenuous". I got a chuckle though, so thanks for that!
  • peferctwombatpeferctwombat Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Just more shallowness from cryptic. They'll fix it when they know how to get you to open your wallet for it.
  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    syberghost wrote: »
    No, I'm telling you that when they introduced minicoms, and shortly after that Dan said they had to make per-map fixes for this, and then he comes back and says evidently some people misunderstood him because he wasn't very clear, and here's what he meant, you can put two and two together or you can assume that it was a complete coincidence that mincoms happened right before he said there was a fix that had to be implemented per map, and minicom are a fix that has to be implemented per map.

    I'm sure you're right; it's a complete coincidence, there never was a fix, it's just a happy accident that minicoms don't break cloak.

    This is why Dan doesn't talk on the forums anymore.

    Um, this is all wrong.

    It was Salami Inferno who said that they had to go map by map to correct the issue. It was also Salami who said they did that, then later had to recant and say that in fact it was done via a script.

    Exact quote on the fix:
    The fix for this issue is not as simple as it sounds. It involves touching every single map in the game, which is a ridiculously high number.

    That being said, we did it and the fix will be in the next tribble push.

    Beyond that, this was never the intention. We learned from Gozer that the intention was to have people decloaked by objective inter-actables.
    When the game was shipped, pop-up dialogs and informational inter-actables did not force ships that were cloaked to decloak. The only thing that would force you out of cloak were mission objective inter-actables.

    This was by design. If you could just stay cloaked you could basically just fly to a mission objective, use it, and leave without ever having to fight anything that might be there to protect it.

    All of this stemmed from streamlining how things work within the engine, combining all of the ineractable types under one umbrella:
    Somewhere between Season 2 and Season 3 all pop-ups and informational inter-actables were reclassified in the Engine to all work off the same internal engine feature, prior to this change there were separate systems for each . This change was a good thing for those of us that use the tools daily because it simplified our work flow. However, it had the side effect of breaking people out of cloak whenever you use any inter-actable or get any pop-up etc...etc..

    When the bug was "fixed" supposedly they added a way to flag interactions so only the APPROPRIATE ONES (read: the ones that did so at launch) decloaked us. They didn't bother flagging anything by hand though (though Salami initially suggested they did), but instead ran a script that should have caught most of the issues... but didn't

    According to Gozer they should have been fixing any problems where it wasn't caught, which, you know, was ALL OF THEM, which is what everyone reported.
    There has been new tech added to this system as with the latest build that allows us to flag this stuff now on a case by case basis. We also ran a game wide "fix" script that should have caught most of these with Season 4.

    I'm sure that the script probably missed a bunch of edge cases as well, so just report them when you see them and we will crush them as we get the reports.

    Of course, nothing was ever done about any of the issues afterwards, and apparently they've now decided that nothing ever will be done.

    You can find the Gozer and Salami quotes in this thread in quote format (otherwise attributed to Archived Post).
  • corsair114corsair114 Member Posts: 276
    edited September 2012
    -Gone Hunting-

    Captain: Alight crew, our Bird of Prey has been assigned to the Ker'rat system to salvage borg technology and blow up any Federation petaQs that happen to be in the area.

    Crew: [The crew cheers, throws beers, and fires at Will]

    Captain: Damnit that was my first officer... anyway. Upon arrival, we'll raise the cloak and go high above the solar plane, then plan our next moves from there.

    Conn: We're dropping out warp-Sir! We're surround by Federation ships!

    Captain: Engineering, all power to engines. Helm, evasive maneuvers! Get us out of here!

    Chief Engineer and Helm: Aye Captain!

    Captain: As soon as we clear tractor range... now! Raise cloak, all hands brace for impact!

    [Ship escapes, much sighing and counting of stars (lucky or otherwise) ensues]

    Captain: Helm, good piloting, take us up and let's see about finding us some prey. Sensors... anything?

    Sensor Officer: No sir... wait. Yes, one of the Federation ships has broken off from the group. Trident-class, seems to be making best speed for one of the large Borg nodes. Oh, it's engaged with a Sphere and appears to be struggling a bit.

    Captain: Excellent, that shall be our first kill of the day. Helm, vector us to intercept, inform me when we reach optimum weapons range.

    Conn Officer: Aye Captain.

    [VFx shot, outline of the invisible Bird of Prey lines up on the unsuspecting Trident-class Science Ship as a pair of Defiants decloak and destroy the Sphere that it had been struggling to kill]

    Captain: Blast, no honor in committing suicide against such a force. Another opportunity will arise, and now we know there are Defiants about with cloaking devices. We can use this to our advantage. Probably.

    Comms: Captain! Our Tactical officer has something he needs to tell you right away! I'm lowering our cloak!

    Captain: What the FU-

    [VFx shot: The Bird of Prey decloaks and is quickly disabled by the Trident before being vaporized by the Defiants.]


    Now. If you had watched an episode of Star Trek that played out like that, would *you* have thought it sensible?
  • zerobangzerobang Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The thing is, to actually FIX the cloak they would have to go through the complete game, every mission dialog and tag it to decloak or not.

    That would be super time intensive so it is not going to happen.


    And yepp this is totally a "It's a feature not a bug" statement.... "working as intended", move along!

    Shenanigans...



    The problem is also, it doesn't decloak me when i need to react (press a button), but when the text pop up appears, so i have no control over when i decloak at all.



    Can you imagine Star Trek 6 if all Kirk needed to do to decloak that Bird of Prey was to HAIL them?
    That would have been a short movie...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • zordar01zordar01 Member Posts: 318
    edited September 2012
    Dstahl: To clear up some confusion about this issue, let me shed some light on how cloak is intended to relate to interactions within the game. It is our intention that any interaction within the game will remove stealth. Anytime you are expected to take a game action of clicking on a button to respond, whether it is to scan something, or acknowledge a bridge officer, or make a command decision via a contact option, it should pull you out of stealth. With that said, there are undoubtedly missions out there that were made prior to the inception of the mini-contacts (the ones that fly across your screen) which are just providing information and shouldn?t need to be acknowledged. One reason we created mini-contacts was to allow information to be given by your bridge crew without you needing to acknowledge it for game design purposes. If you feel that a specific mission contact could be switched to a mini-contact that doesn?t need acknowledgement, then that is the type of suggestion that should be made. We can then look at the mission specifically and determine whether it warrants a mini-contact or not.

    The way this answer is written is interesting. He's not saying 'cloaking was supposed to be this way from the start'. He's saying 'we want cloak to work the way it is now and some older missions decloak you unnecessarily'. Maybe he specifically said different in the Raptr Q&A but going off of this quote he's not trying to rewrite history, he's just saying 'this is how we want it to work'. The interesting part is that this answer is the exact opposite of Cryptic's previously communicated position on this, but Dan phrases the answer so that it sounds like this was Cryptic's intention all along even though he never explicitly states that. Basically, smoke and mirrors.

    Regardless, it's still unacceptable. He comes out and says that acknowledging a Boff should drop cloak. As intended. :rolleyes:
    Star Trek: Online - Now with 100% more dinosaurs!!
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    zerobang wrote: »
    Can you imagine Star Trek 6 if all Kirk needed to do to decloak that Bird of Prey was to HAIL them?
    That would have been a short movie...

    Actually, it would only be about 5 minutes shorter than it was, technically.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,005 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Well, I'm no PvPer but I have a question: Why exactly is there "story content" on a PvP map? I mean, in the middle of the fight obviously.

    Same question regarding the STFs - the game outright forces us to do these missions a bazillion times and every single time we are forced to click thorugh all the story bits - they don't change, we know what's going on after 300 runs, it's nothing new - but it breaks the cloak. If they can't fix that why isn't there an option for PvP and STFs to turn the story dialogue off once you read it one time?
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Because the story bits are your button to tell the game "I'm ready for the next bit, spawn Borg cube please."
    What's written as text in the window is meaningless from a gameplay perspective.
    Without that button, there would be no way for the game to know when it should proceed.
    11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
  • jockey1979jockey1979 Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I understand why they do not want people going around constantly cloaked, and to be fair for story line content they are right.

    However, for certain things they do need to implement the mini com. All PvP maps and war zones, fleet events, fleet actions, Red Alerts and the STF maps.

    They are really the only maps where it is a problem, normal PvE missions in this game are so easy you do not need to cloak at all, so the times you can it is a bonus. I am on my 4th KDF character now going through levelling in a BoP and I do not see the need for a cloak in PvE story missions.

    Fed side I have not really made much use of my Defiant or Galaxy X so I cannot comment too much on it. But as a KDF player if the above listed maps were given the once over to make sure my cloak wasn't effected as the missions progress I'd be very happy.
  • jockey1979jockey1979 Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    timelord79 wrote: »
    Because the story bits are your button to tell the game "I'm ready for the next bit, spawn Borg cube please."
    What's written as text in the window is meaningless from a gameplay perspective.
    Without that button, there would be no way for the game to know when it should proceed.

    Timers? Like in the fleet events. That would solve that problem
  • assimilatedktarassimilatedktar Member Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ehm, sorry, but I don't buy the excuse that people could bypass story content with the cloak. 90% of the story content is blowing enemy ships up. What the constant decloaking does is making the cloak useless for that, especially for the enemies where it would be the most useful.
    FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
    Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
  • ebeneezergoodeebeneezergoode Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    At the very least, put Ker'rat as a mini com thing. I find that's the biggest point of contention, PVE's too easy for it to be much of an issue, in Ker'rat it can get you smoked like a fine Cuban cigar.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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