Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
If I may - why make them undonatable? Surely it's the logic of the fleet mark boosters, you spend credits to make credits easier and to help smaller bases develop further.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
thanks for the update, i appreciate it.
While i understand the dilithium thing can be exploited i see no reason to remove the doffs from starbase construction. i urge you you to just add that back. everyone will thank you for it. there is a fine line between making a system lengthy and making it a horrible grind.
when they were added it was a welcome addition and a god send to small fleets. it really feels like you gave us a great toy, then took the toy away and replaced it was a razor blade.
the change has just made the whole thing less fun and now a minefield for anyone using the exchange. this really is something that should have been done right from the word go.
im sure you understand and are probably as frustrated as us, and while i dont claim to know the inner workings of how and why this all came to pass, if something can be learned from this then i hope its taken in. even if its just a case of slowing down a bit and taking a little more time to get it right because this all feels totally avoidable from a player perspective. im sure its a little more complicated from a development point of view but nonetheless, its us that are now paying the price.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
I appreciate that we are getting a response from a Dev and that the matter is being looked at.
What I don't understand the secrecy. No one has been able to come up with a logical gameplay related reason for this change to have been made. Why not explain what you were trying to accomplish with the change? If you explain the Dev concern with the system as it was and use the community to find a solution, things normally go very well.
When things are changed without explanation and, as a result, game play is made worse for the players, it just makes us mad and we think poorly of Cryptic. Then the conspiracy theorists come out and start to look rational by comparison. Which just makes things worse.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
Btw, you guys were inform by testers of the Tribble server.. why this was allow to go live? Why you guys don?t just close tribble test server? because is clear that is useless, like all the feedback there.
Btw, you guys were inform by testers of the Tribble server.. why this was allow to go live? Why you guys don?t just close tribble test server? because is clear that is useless, like all the feedback there.
I use to be a Beta Tester for various games back in the day.... and I have seen un-planned results where the dev team thinks they are putting a fix in with fly swatter and it is actually a hammer.
Who knows, they might not have fully understood the problem during testing.
Now why this wasnt discussed in Release Notes............
Now why this wasnt discussed in Release Notes............
I am just glad it will be addressed.
Thx
They might not have realized how it was working on Holodeck. After all, fleets were just starting to reach a point where Fleet DOffs were available. It's not like they had been available for months and this was well known to everyone.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
The C-Store Doff Packs as the new variety of lockboxes ?
Pay your money & hope for the best ?
* ROFL *......... Not happening with me & my wallet...
I will -
1 - NOT buy Doff Packs ..( have in the past, dead stop on this now )
2 - NOT buy Zen to convert to Dil on the Exchange..
( have in the past, what's the point though, if Projects can't move forward ? )
3 - NOT spend the time and resources to grind out Projects..
( the drain on my EC and personal time will stop )
So, thank you, Cryptic .... "Not wasting time and money" is my personal "Working as Intended". The Doff
change gives me the "trigger" to say..... " Enough is Enough".
Edit - I was not aware of the exploitability of the StarBase DOffs when I wrote this. I am dead set against being forced into paying cash for the game by options being removed, but my only real complaint here is not being able to tell the StarBase Doffs from the usable DOffs on the Exchange.
Thank you for posting after the silence since ZeroniusRex's...suboptimal...choice of words. Please continue to keep the community informed because at it is I refuse to buy *any* duty officers on the exchange until they either make them able to be donated to projects or are clearly marked as not being allowed to do so.
- Either revert the entire thing to what it has been before, OR:
- Make all fleet duffs bound once claimed from the pack, butt keep them capable of being donated to a fleet base project. Bound duffs can't be sold on the exchange, therefore no abusing possible of fleet credits to massive energy credits cunversion.
"Everything about the Jham'Hadar is lethal!" - Eris
Original Join Date: January 30th, 2010
I use to be a Beta Tester for various games back in the day.... and I have seen un-planned results where the dev team thinks they are putting a fix in with fly swatter and it is actually a hammer.
Who knows, they might not have fully understood the problem during testing.
Now why this wasnt discussed in Release Notes............
I am just glad it will be addressed.
Thx
Don't by that one bit - that's why there is the whole forum joke of "working as Intended"
This issue was pointed out on Wed throught the day - both for it's silliness and potential disaster on the exchange
then came the response from the Dev regarding the non contributable doff: the now imfamous quote:
They might not have realized how it was working on Holodeck. After all, fleets were just starting to reach a point where Fleet DOffs were available. It's not like they had been available for months and this was well known to everyone.
Kind of you to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they were told exactly what the problem was after this patch had gone up on Tribble. There was no ambiguity. They reply was that it was working as intended.
They had a 16 hour window to not allow the problem to happen on Holodeck, and it still happened.
And the changes that really torqued everyone (Fleet doffs not slottable on projects, no way to tell them from slottable doffs on exchange) weren't even mentioned in the patch notes on either Tribble or Holodeck.
I'm glad its going to get looked at and possibly fixed. Saying they maybe didn't understand the implications before they occured is wishful thinking.
They should work no different than regular DOFFs for the Starbase inputs, I think most feel. If they're gonna be available, they need to be allowed as inputs. If not, then at least let us get back Dilithium or CXP so they're of some use if we can't use them on our characters.
the issue they were trying to address was us the players gaining dilith that could be used to purchase zen in the game rather than buying it from them. my guess is that someplace within that code that removed their value for xp and dilith it made other system LIKE THE FLEET mission not recognize them in the game. so now because they wont just reset that portion of the patch.
im an older guy and used to spend at least $100.00 a month on entertainment. now that i play this game i usually dump $100.00 a month easy into getting zen. but this really seems to be a truly cheap and low down move and will prevent me from being entertained, which means im about to move on to something that actually does entertain me rather than annoy me..
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
There are some posters on this topic who are dangerously close to being warned for trolling and recommended for an infraction.
If anyone wants to believe, or disbelieve, that the Devs are taking this seriously that's up to them. Feel free to criticize and express your anger and/or disappointment -- that's legitmate feedback.
But don't post over and over about what a Dev said trying to stir up trouble. That is NOT useful feedback. It's trolling.
Borticus has posted a respectful response and I think we should respect that he really can't open this up for discussion on the forums at this time. Very soon, hopefully.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Kind of you to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they were told exactly what the problem was after this patch had gone up on Tribble. There was no ambiguity. They reply was that it was working as intended.
They had a 16 hour window to not allow the problem to happen on Holodeck, and it still happened.
And the changes that really torqued everyone (Fleet doffs not slottable on projects, no way to tell them from slottable doffs on exchange) weren't even mentioned in the patch notes on either Tribble or Holodeck.
I'm glad its going to get looked at and possibly fixed. Saying they maybe didn't understand the implications before they occured is wishful thinking.
There are some posters on this topic who are dangerously close to being warned for trolling and recommended for an infraction.
If anyone wants to believe, or disbelieve, that the Devs are taking this seriously that's up to them. Feel free to criticize and express your anger and/or disappointment -- that's legitmate feedback.
But don't post over and over about what a Dev said trying to stir up trouble. That is NOT useful feedback. It's trolling.
Borticus has posted a respectful response and I think we should respect that he really can't open this up for discussion on the forums at this time. Very soon, hopefully.
Understood and I apologise. The problem is those discussions get heated and messages get lost, while those with the power and/or authority to address our concerns get tired of reading thru the rhetoric and just move on.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
Thanks for replying, but i have to say, what took so long?
You couldve posted this a day ago and eliminated a 24 hours of angst directed at you and the game in general.
You guys clearly have no idea what to do with fleet doffs. Just remove them, at least people could use the exchange again.
The thing that gets me, is that the whole Fleet Doff system seemed to be created for the sole reason of having a source of white Doff's to donate to the SB projects.
People were complaining about the price of white doffs, and how hard it was to get them to complete some of the projects. Then they said "We have something coming out soon to help with that." Which was the fleet vendor for Doff's, so now there's a way of obtaining white doff's, just that they cost fleet credits.
Now without any sort of notice in the patch notes, they made it so they can't be used in fleet projects.
It doesn't really seem all that complicated to me. Just make the Fleet Doffs bound. Sure, that will make the Fleet Doffs pretty much useless until you get to the blues and purps, but so be it. It's better than having doffs pollute the exchange to where you don't know which doff is usable for starbases.
It doesn't really seem all that complicated to me. Just make the Fleet Doffs bound. Sure, that will make the Fleet Doffs pretty much useless until you get to the blues and purps, but so be it. It's better than having doffs pollute the exchange to where you don't know which doff is usable for starbases.
Why make them bound? Why not just make them the same as regular doffs minus the dilithium and cxp for dismissal? Would check the rampant doff inflation on the exchange and no FC gazillionaire would game the dilithium from suicide-burning a bunch of fleet doffs.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
What I don't understand is the need for all the secrecy. It's just a game... a game.
We aren't at war. This isn't a top secret project out of Area 51.
I understand sometimes something new and exciting might be coming out, and they want to make it a surprise. But this wasn't a happy surprise. It would appear to me, if this change was made intentionally, so we could no longer contribute Fleet DOFFs to projects, they made it that way because they thought we were advancing too fast. If that is the case, why wasn't it in the patchnotes? Why? Why Why? Why not just come out and say it? Obviously a lot of people were using those for projects, did you think we would not notice? I mean come on.
I'm not saying I would be more happy about it. But maybe I wouldn't have ragequit and cancelled my sub. I'm voting with my wallet here. After tomorrow, my game time runs out. I'll be Free to play, if I play at all.
This situation crippled my modest Fleet. Sucked all the fun out of the game. Ended our hopes and dreams of Tier 4. Regardless Tier 5.
I was spending 500 FC on a random white DOFF, which may or may not work for the project I need it for. I had to buy hundreds of DOFFs, just to make up the 120 I might have needed for a given project. Because the droprates were so skewed. I spent hundreds of thousands of my hard earned Fleet credits, to make up for the DOFFs that my Fleet members lack, because not all of them are DOFFers. Some haven't even run a single DOFF mission. Some don't even know what "DOFF" means. On the flip side, some of my people are Tier 4 in all CXP. So Fleet marks thank god, aren't much of a problem, especially with the new boost item. Again, spending our fleet credits, right back on the Starbase again.
This was not an exploit. We are spending our hard earned resources on this. 500 FC, only to maybe earn 150 back WHEN that random doff might be useful. That's 350 Fleet credits I'm losing to nothing. Because I NEED DOFFs.
The recruitment missions are time gated with invisible cooldowns. Some say they are four days. I have 7 alts, even if I do recruitment on all of them, that's only like 25 doffs per character, per week. Maybe like 150 DOFFs per week. Not all of which will be useable for projects that grant Fleet XP. The Fleet is consuming like 200 DOFFs per day. And not everyone is so dedicated, or has so many alts.
You're trying to build communities with Starbases, but you're progressively tearing them apart. Making people like me feel like I need to put pressure on my members to grind. We shouldn't have to grind endlessly. We should be able to contribute what we get from normal gameplay and have fun. But DOFFs aren't normal gameplay for everyone. And to most people going to SFA is a chore. Some people just never go there. Period. By the way, the SFA dilthium event sucks IMHO. You can grind dilihtium much easier with STFs if you turn in salvage for it. Bet you'll take that away from us too or nerf it to be negligible as to be zero. Like the SFA event.
The fastest anyone can make a Starbase is 7 months. The fastest a normal group can make a Starbase is starting to seem like seven years. Maybe I should go get a PhD instead of building a digital Starbase. That's why I cancelled my sub. I don't have years for this game, not on that magnitude. It's been fun. But there is more to life than trying to do a multi-year grind.
Or how about FLEET DOFFS end up in their own classification and not filtered with the other doffs? Should be able to donate them to Starbases really. I don't see the point in limiting them in that way; at least not the common doffs. The very rares could be a different story but again; fleet doffs need to have a separate category and to be honest; traits need to be a search tag and need to have been for a long time as well as the career/area aka Sensors officer; so if you go in the Fleet Doff tab you can search the type of DOFF, traits etc.
Turn the exchange search into something a little more realistic as a search engine/function. Of course it's not like this will ever happen. Glad to hear they're "working" on it. I'd be happier if we weren't "inconvenienced".
It doesn't really seem all that complicated to me. Just make the Fleet Doffs bound. Sure, that will make the Fleet Doffs pretty much useless until you get to the blues and purps, but so be it. It's better than having doffs pollute the exchange to where you don't know which doff is usable for starbases.
I think I'd rather have them usable for starbase projects one way or the other and I'm less concerned about whether they're worth anything on Exchange or whether they could be turned in for dilithium/recruitment. There are plenty of other DOFFs that could be sold on the Exchange if someone really wanted to.
I just want them to be usable for projects and for general DOFF assignments. I don't really care about any other uses for them. I definitely don't want to be in the position of buying an expensive DOFF on the Exchange only to find out I can't use it for the reason I bought it.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Why make them bound? Why not just make them the same as regular doffs minus the dilithium and cxp for dismissal? Would check the rampant doff inflation on the exchange and no FC gazillionaire would game the dilithium from suicide-burning a bunch of fleet doffs.
Oh, but you see, I am making many EC from the rampant doff inflation on the exchange . Also, it seems that Cryptic does not want the starbase doff requirements to be so easily filled, even though it seems their initial intent of the starbase doff supplier was exactly that. Also, I will sometimes buy cheap doffs (~10k EC) off of the exchange for the sole purpose of dismissing them for dilithium. If Cryptic did what you said, I still wouldn't be able to distinguish which ones I could use for this purpose. Making them bound, but still up-grindable seems like the easiest fix. If you want doffs to use at the starbase through the starbase doff supplier then you will have to use dilithium to up-grind them, and then lose 2 when you down-grind them.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
Okay thanks for telling us you're working on it. I've already given some of my ideas so I won't repeat them. I just want to add that it would be good to get the fix in the next patch to preserve the peace on this forum.
Right now, I am waiting for the inevitable "Don't blame Cryptic, they are just following PWE orders" post.... Well I am finding it harder and harder to seperate the two "factions".
thats easy the ones with all the shiny and getting content are feds erm ..... pwe?
There are some posters on this topic who are dangerously close to being warned for trolling and recommended for an infraction.
If anyone wants to believe, or disbelieve, that the Devs are taking this seriously that's up to them. Feel free to criticize and express your anger and/or disappointment -- that's legitmate feedback.
But don't post over and over about what a Dev said trying to stir up trouble. That is NOT useful feedback. It's trolling.
Borticus has posted a respectful response and I think we should respect that he really can't open this up for discussion on the forums at this time. Very soon, hopefully.
I learned long ago that accusing others of trolling is itself one of the characteristic behaviors of trolling. Productive discussions are contingent on good faith, and questioning the good faith of other posters - especially collectively, since individual posters can't very well be responsible for other individual posters - is inherently unlikely to get a discussion back on track. More often it derails a discussion into a blame game.
Anger and disappointment aren't actually useful as good feedback. Saying "I don't like something" is a lot less useful than "I don't like it, here's why, and here's what I think of the alternatives".
Conversely, dismissing others' "feedback" as a mere emotional state is to preclude the possibility that there is any intellectual depth to it. All the more so when such a superficial interpretation is applied not to any individual post but to many different posts by many different posters about different aspects of the same issue.
To understand an issue and the alternatives to a given approach necessarily requires understanding of the motivations of any given party involved. And the only way those motivations can be divined is by discussion of the available facts. Those facts, such as they are, are dev posts.
To show respect is to recognize the rights and prerogatives of the other party. Amongst the prerogatives that people usually associate with "respect" is the right to one's opinion, and to be dealt with in a responsive and equivocal way. No one likes a curt dismissal or being told that they are incapable of understanding something, or that their time is somehow less important than someone else's.
A major source of dysfunction in business today, and, I think, the MMO industry in particular, is taking stereotyped and unimaginative approaches to problems, including customer service. Few companies really stop to question whether they have more to be worried about from being sued, or any loss of face from doing a mea culpa, or from customers being offended or otherwise disaffected by a perceived lack of honesty or responsiveness.
In this scenario, the question is: what would really have been lost had the intent of this change been explicitly expressed by Bort and the other devs, or if he simply said "sorry we did this in such a way"? Even if Bort thinks he's 100% right - even if he IS 100% right in his thinking behind this change - what would really have been lost in making an apology for perceived bad form?
Notice I said perceived: perception is everything, especially in MMOs. And likewise in real life, one often meets clueless people who affect the forms of etiquette without the essence, doing offense to everyone they meet, and really are only convincing themselves as to their civility. Typically, those kinds people are in a position where they really don't have to care what others think, because if they did, such behavior wouldn't endure very long.
What matters in any given situation is not whether what was said was, factually, respectful, or whether it adhered to the literal standards of respect, but whether it was perceived as respectful. Like I said, people who affect the forms of etiquette but not the essence are usually those who don't really have to care what others think: they rely on intimidation to get their way. So talking about respect then lapsing into veiled threats seems a bit inconsistent with a respect-based approach.
This isn't a matter of national security. If the game is being run in an equivocal way then it is hard to see a rational reason the issue can't be discussed reasonably. The devs can state their design goals, and work with the community on a way to achieve them - and if they are unwilling to do so then it is only logical to ask why.
Now I want to point out that everything I said here was entirely respectful (^_^) and directly on-point and on-topic. There's no speculation or strawmanning, just reference to what was said and a bit of elementary reasoning.
So I would say the way in which what I said is approached would be a good indicator of good faith on the part of all parties involved in this discussion.
Okay thanks for telling us you're working on it. I've already given some of my ideas so I won't repeat them. I just want to add that it would be good to get the fix in the next patch to preserve the peace on this forum.
"Peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice."
You can't very well have peace if people think they're being treated unfairly. And if you think such a perception is itself likely to be unfair then you preclude the possibility of any sort of peace at all.
Sorry for the ongoing silence on this issue, folks.
We recognize the inconvenience that a lack of clear indicator has caused on the Exchange, and are still discussing additional (or alternative) solutions to the underlying mechanics we were seeking to address.
I'm afraid we can't comment further than that on the issue at the moment. Just wanted to let you all know that it is definitely on our radar, and under discussion for additional resolution.
Hope you guys will do it fast and correct, not come with a fix that hurt us more and fix nothing. Starbase building have been stoped till you come with a good fix.
Im keeping all my ec and dilitium (already got myself 2000 zen-points from dil. exchange)
(if the fix will takes months, i don't neeed to grind fleet marks but will grind dilitium with 14 characters...104.000 dil a day = 630 zen-points)
PS: again a great patch, can't you not better patch on Monday, you will have the whole week to fix your errors.
Comments
If I may - why make them undonatable? Surely it's the logic of the fleet mark boosters, you spend credits to make credits easier and to help smaller bases develop further.
#JustSaying
thanks for the update, i appreciate it.
While i understand the dilithium thing can be exploited i see no reason to remove the doffs from starbase construction. i urge you you to just add that back. everyone will thank you for it. there is a fine line between making a system lengthy and making it a horrible grind.
when they were added it was a welcome addition and a god send to small fleets. it really feels like you gave us a great toy, then took the toy away and replaced it was a razor blade.
the change has just made the whole thing less fun and now a minefield for anyone using the exchange. this really is something that should have been done right from the word go.
im sure you understand and are probably as frustrated as us, and while i dont claim to know the inner workings of how and why this all came to pass, if something can be learned from this then i hope its taken in. even if its just a case of slowing down a bit and taking a little more time to get it right because this all feels totally avoidable from a player perspective. im sure its a little more complicated from a development point of view but nonetheless, its us that are now paying the price.
Woo Hoo!
Thank you!
Delirium Tremens
Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
http://dtfleet.com/
I appreciate that we are getting a response from a Dev and that the matter is being looked at.
What I don't understand the secrecy. No one has been able to come up with a logical gameplay related reason for this change to have been made. Why not explain what you were trying to accomplish with the change? If you explain the Dev concern with the system as it was and use the community to find a solution, things normally go very well.
When things are changed without explanation and, as a result, game play is made worse for the players, it just makes us mad and we think poorly of Cryptic. Then the conspiracy theorists come out and start to look rational by comparison. Which just makes things worse.
Btw, you guys were inform by testers of the Tribble server.. why this was allow to go live? Why you guys don?t just close tribble test server? because is clear that is useless, like all the feedback there.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
I use to be a Beta Tester for various games back in the day.... and I have seen un-planned results where the dev team thinks they are putting a fix in with fly swatter and it is actually a hammer.
Who knows, they might not have fully understood the problem during testing.
Now why this wasnt discussed in Release Notes............
I am just glad it will be addressed.
Thx
Delirium Tremens
Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
http://dtfleet.com/
They might not have realized how it was working on Holodeck. After all, fleets were just starting to reach a point where Fleet DOffs were available. It's not like they had been available for months and this was well known to everyone.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
The C-Store Doff Packs as the new variety of lockboxes ?
Pay your money & hope for the best ?
* ROFL *......... Not happening with me & my wallet...
I will -
1 - NOT buy Doff Packs ..( have in the past, dead stop on this now )
2 - NOT buy Zen to convert to Dil on the Exchange..
( have in the past, what's the point though, if Projects can't move forward ? )
3 - NOT spend the time and resources to grind out Projects..
( the drain on my EC and personal time will stop )
So, thank you, Cryptic .... "Not wasting time and money" is my personal "Working as Intended". The Doff
change gives me the "trigger" to say..... " Enough is Enough".
Edit - I was not aware of the exploitability of the StarBase DOffs when I wrote this. I am dead set against being forced into paying cash for the game by options being removed, but my only real complaint here is not being able to tell the StarBase Doffs from the usable DOffs on the Exchange.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
- Either revert the entire thing to what it has been before, OR:
- Make all fleet duffs bound once claimed from the pack, butt keep them capable of being donated to a fleet base project. Bound duffs can't be sold on the exchange, therefore no abusing possible of fleet credits to massive energy credits cunversion.
Original Join Date: January 30th, 2010
Don't by that one bit - that's why there is the whole forum joke of "working as Intended"
This issue was pointed out on Wed throught the day - both for it's silliness and potential disaster on the exchange
then came the response from the Dev regarding the non contributable doff: the now imfamous quote:
Kind of you to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they were told exactly what the problem was after this patch had gone up on Tribble. There was no ambiguity. They reply was that it was working as intended.
They had a 16 hour window to not allow the problem to happen on Holodeck, and it still happened.
And the changes that really torqued everyone (Fleet doffs not slottable on projects, no way to tell them from slottable doffs on exchange) weren't even mentioned in the patch notes on either Tribble or Holodeck.
I'm glad its going to get looked at and possibly fixed. Saying they maybe didn't understand the implications before they occured is wishful thinking.
the issue they were trying to address was us the players gaining dilith that could be used to purchase zen in the game rather than buying it from them. my guess is that someplace within that code that removed their value for xp and dilith it made other system LIKE THE FLEET mission not recognize them in the game. so now because they wont just reset that portion of the patch.
im an older guy and used to spend at least $100.00 a month on entertainment. now that i play this game i usually dump $100.00 a month easy into getting zen. but this really seems to be a truly cheap and low down move and will prevent me from being entertained, which means im about to move on to something that actually does entertain me rather than annoy me..
If anyone wants to believe, or disbelieve, that the Devs are taking this seriously that's up to them. Feel free to criticize and express your anger and/or disappointment -- that's legitmate feedback.
But don't post over and over about what a Dev said trying to stir up trouble. That is NOT useful feedback. It's trolling.
Borticus has posted a respectful response and I think we should respect that he really can't open this up for discussion on the forums at this time. Very soon, hopefully.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
100% correct. :mad:
Also 100% correct.
I agree with him^^^, also 100% correct.:P
Thanks for replying, but i have to say, what took so long?
You couldve posted this a day ago and eliminated a 24 hours of angst directed at you and the game in general.
You guys clearly have no idea what to do with fleet doffs. Just remove them, at least people could use the exchange again.
People were complaining about the price of white doffs, and how hard it was to get them to complete some of the projects. Then they said "We have something coming out soon to help with that." Which was the fleet vendor for Doff's, so now there's a way of obtaining white doff's, just that they cost fleet credits.
Now without any sort of notice in the patch notes, they made it so they can't be used in fleet projects.
@DevolvedOne
Why make them bound? Why not just make them the same as regular doffs minus the dilithium and cxp for dismissal? Would check the rampant doff inflation on the exchange and no FC gazillionaire would game the dilithium from suicide-burning a bunch of fleet doffs.
What I don't understand is the need for all the secrecy. It's just a game... a game.
We aren't at war. This isn't a top secret project out of Area 51.
I understand sometimes something new and exciting might be coming out, and they want to make it a surprise. But this wasn't a happy surprise. It would appear to me, if this change was made intentionally, so we could no longer contribute Fleet DOFFs to projects, they made it that way because they thought we were advancing too fast. If that is the case, why wasn't it in the patchnotes? Why? Why Why? Why not just come out and say it? Obviously a lot of people were using those for projects, did you think we would not notice? I mean come on.
I'm not saying I would be more happy about it. But maybe I wouldn't have ragequit and cancelled my sub. I'm voting with my wallet here. After tomorrow, my game time runs out. I'll be Free to play, if I play at all.
This situation crippled my modest Fleet. Sucked all the fun out of the game. Ended our hopes and dreams of Tier 4. Regardless Tier 5.
I was spending 500 FC on a random white DOFF, which may or may not work for the project I need it for. I had to buy hundreds of DOFFs, just to make up the 120 I might have needed for a given project. Because the droprates were so skewed. I spent hundreds of thousands of my hard earned Fleet credits, to make up for the DOFFs that my Fleet members lack, because not all of them are DOFFers. Some haven't even run a single DOFF mission. Some don't even know what "DOFF" means. On the flip side, some of my people are Tier 4 in all CXP. So Fleet marks thank god, aren't much of a problem, especially with the new boost item. Again, spending our fleet credits, right back on the Starbase again.
This was not an exploit. We are spending our hard earned resources on this. 500 FC, only to maybe earn 150 back WHEN that random doff might be useful. That's 350 Fleet credits I'm losing to nothing. Because I NEED DOFFs.
The recruitment missions are time gated with invisible cooldowns. Some say they are four days. I have 7 alts, even if I do recruitment on all of them, that's only like 25 doffs per character, per week. Maybe like 150 DOFFs per week. Not all of which will be useable for projects that grant Fleet XP. The Fleet is consuming like 200 DOFFs per day. And not everyone is so dedicated, or has so many alts.
You're trying to build communities with Starbases, but you're progressively tearing them apart. Making people like me feel like I need to put pressure on my members to grind. We shouldn't have to grind endlessly. We should be able to contribute what we get from normal gameplay and have fun. But DOFFs aren't normal gameplay for everyone. And to most people going to SFA is a chore. Some people just never go there. Period. By the way, the SFA dilthium event sucks IMHO. You can grind dilihtium much easier with STFs if you turn in salvage for it. Bet you'll take that away from us too or nerf it to be negligible as to be zero. Like the SFA event.
The fastest anyone can make a Starbase is 7 months. The fastest a normal group can make a Starbase is starting to seem like seven years. Maybe I should go get a PhD instead of building a digital Starbase. That's why I cancelled my sub. I don't have years for this game, not on that magnitude. It's been fun. But there is more to life than trying to do a multi-year grind.
Matthew@Matthew486DX -> Eng Lvl 60
FAW/Tank: Tactical Oddyessy T5-U, Tank/Heal Science Oddyessy T5-U, DPS Cruiser: A2B Battlecruiser T5-U, DPS/Debuff Tholian Recluse T5-U
Fleet Admiral: Angry Tribbles
Turn the exchange search into something a little more realistic as a search engine/function. Of course it's not like this will ever happen. Glad to hear they're "working" on it. I'd be happier if we weren't "inconvenienced".
I think I'd rather have them usable for starbase projects one way or the other and I'm less concerned about whether they're worth anything on Exchange or whether they could be turned in for dilithium/recruitment. There are plenty of other DOFFs that could be sold on the Exchange if someone really wanted to.
I just want them to be usable for projects and for general DOFF assignments. I don't really care about any other uses for them. I definitely don't want to be in the position of buying an expensive DOFF on the Exchange only to find out I can't use it for the reason I bought it.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Oh, but you see, I am making many EC from the rampant doff inflation on the exchange
@DevolvedOne
Okay thanks for telling us you're working on it. I've already given some of my ideas so I won't repeat them. I just want to add that it would be good to get the fix in the next patch to preserve the peace on this forum.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
thats easy the ones with all the shiny and getting content are feds erm ..... pwe?
I learned long ago that accusing others of trolling is itself one of the characteristic behaviors of trolling. Productive discussions are contingent on good faith, and questioning the good faith of other posters - especially collectively, since individual posters can't very well be responsible for other individual posters - is inherently unlikely to get a discussion back on track. More often it derails a discussion into a blame game.
Anger and disappointment aren't actually useful as good feedback. Saying "I don't like something" is a lot less useful than "I don't like it, here's why, and here's what I think of the alternatives".
Conversely, dismissing others' "feedback" as a mere emotional state is to preclude the possibility that there is any intellectual depth to it. All the more so when such a superficial interpretation is applied not to any individual post but to many different posts by many different posters about different aspects of the same issue.
To understand an issue and the alternatives to a given approach necessarily requires understanding of the motivations of any given party involved. And the only way those motivations can be divined is by discussion of the available facts. Those facts, such as they are, are dev posts.
To show respect is to recognize the rights and prerogatives of the other party. Amongst the prerogatives that people usually associate with "respect" is the right to one's opinion, and to be dealt with in a responsive and equivocal way. No one likes a curt dismissal or being told that they are incapable of understanding something, or that their time is somehow less important than someone else's.
A major source of dysfunction in business today, and, I think, the MMO industry in particular, is taking stereotyped and unimaginative approaches to problems, including customer service. Few companies really stop to question whether they have more to be worried about from being sued, or any loss of face from doing a mea culpa, or from customers being offended or otherwise disaffected by a perceived lack of honesty or responsiveness.
In this scenario, the question is: what would really have been lost had the intent of this change been explicitly expressed by Bort and the other devs, or if he simply said "sorry we did this in such a way"? Even if Bort thinks he's 100% right - even if he IS 100% right in his thinking behind this change - what would really have been lost in making an apology for perceived bad form?
Notice I said perceived: perception is everything, especially in MMOs. And likewise in real life, one often meets clueless people who affect the forms of etiquette without the essence, doing offense to everyone they meet, and really are only convincing themselves as to their civility. Typically, those kinds people are in a position where they really don't have to care what others think, because if they did, such behavior wouldn't endure very long.
What matters in any given situation is not whether what was said was, factually, respectful, or whether it adhered to the literal standards of respect, but whether it was perceived as respectful. Like I said, people who affect the forms of etiquette but not the essence are usually those who don't really have to care what others think: they rely on intimidation to get their way. So talking about respect then lapsing into veiled threats seems a bit inconsistent with a respect-based approach.
This isn't a matter of national security. If the game is being run in an equivocal way then it is hard to see a rational reason the issue can't be discussed reasonably. The devs can state their design goals, and work with the community on a way to achieve them - and if they are unwilling to do so then it is only logical to ask why.
Now I want to point out that everything I said here was entirely respectful (^_^) and directly on-point and on-topic. There's no speculation or strawmanning, just reference to what was said and a bit of elementary reasoning.
So I would say the way in which what I said is approached would be a good indicator of good faith on the part of all parties involved in this discussion.
"Peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice."
You can't very well have peace if people think they're being treated unfairly. And if you think such a perception is itself likely to be unfair then you preclude the possibility of any sort of peace at all.
Hope you guys will do it fast and correct, not come with a fix that hurt us more and fix nothing. Starbase building have been stoped till you come with a good fix.
Im keeping all my ec and dilitium (already got myself 2000 zen-points from dil. exchange)
(if the fix will takes months, i don't neeed to grind fleet marks but will grind dilitium with 14 characters...104.000 dil a day = 630 zen-points)
PS: again a great patch, can't you not better patch on Monday, you will have the whole week to fix your errors.