That was in fact the procedure that was applied here. The changes where on Tribble and announced, feedback was collected, no adjustments were deemed necessary, so it was released.
You are wrong, adjustments were necessary according to almost everyone on this forum (and we had visits from PVE forum too).
There are only two persons that seem to like what has been done: Borticus and you.
And, by the way, you are overvaluating Cryptic.
1) The fix itself has some weird bugs thate were reported on this thread *before the release*: for example when you increase particle generators over a certain value, tooltip damage of PSW3 stops increasing (it's capped at 5624... yes, developer is a genious).
2) (and more important) This new state of things for psw will last months or years, and we don't know if it will ever be fixed. How do I know this? Look at decloacking bug for bops, or at the state of Charged Particle Burst, or at the state of <name an offensive science ability here>, or at the accuracy problem of faw. What Borticus did is no different in method from what the previous developer did, with the only difference that this is wrong and previous setting was right.
You are as always completely missing the point Sophie....
To break it down as simply as I can I will try to use as few words as I can.....
Cryptic has had STO going for 2 years....
1.5 years ago... a group of players discovered that you could put Shockwave on a Tactical Built BOP... this was VERY VERY Effective.... so much so that half the game cried nerf that TRIBBLE.
At that time a Cryptic Employee... decided that to fix this issue... he would Nerf mainly the shockwave stun length, and also add a stun immunity mechanic to the game.
Now I am going to assume that the code for the stun time and the dmg component are some what entwined... or at least that's what said dev alluded to at the time... So he made a BALANCE DECISION.
He dropped the dmg and the stun time on shock wave accross the board... and then made the CHOICE to have it not scale as you would expect... because frankly he didn't want the skill to be shelved by everyone... he just didn't want to see groups of one class of ship spam Shockwave Level 1 to game ending effect.
His BALANCE decision at the time was likely the best way to go. People still slotted shock waves... but groups of all shock wave escort/bops where put on the shelf. (what the dev wanted you see)
Now 1.5 years later... a NEW developer working on the same bit of code... looked it over and likely had no idea that the "Math" error he was seeing was completely intentional... as a BALANCE choice.
Frankly with the stun immunity now I doubt we see the return of shockwave level 1 bop groups... however if he does increase the stun now that everyone cries HEY FIX THIS.... well we will be most of the way back to the problem the other dev was trying to fix 1.5 years ago.... they are running in circles and its painful... and NO the game doesn't have to have every single piece of math scale at an exact ratio... this is not a spread sheet... its a VIDEO GAME... which is an art form created by people who make choices in regards to the rules to make things fun to play. And now as Jorf was saying be quite.
out of all the issues we've complained about,
out of all the bugs we've reported,
out of the content we've asked for....
what made you decide that shockwave 3 had to be "fixed".
seriously, I'd like to know why this was "fixed" before all the other major issues that are known and have been asked to be looked at a lot more.
was it because this was a relativly easy fix? (seems like it was just a number multiplier)
was it because "fixing" it might have an impact on the "massive overhaul" that is "comming" to pvp?
i look forward to hearing the reasoning behind this decision. thanks
By which you mean to say, I value them higher than you do. Still, their product is apparently good enough for both of us, even with all the bugs (of which, yes, the decloaking bug is one of the most annoying).
As I said, i will stop playing if this situation lasts more than a couple of weeks.
You don't fly a science ship on your main so maybe you can't understand how bad the situation is.
They are useless!!!
All science abilities except heals are broken!
I've played this game for long enough to know that we will never get a general balance pass on science abilities.
And this "fix" on PSW3 is the demonstration that there's no documentation of what has been done in the past to balance powers.
Here's what will happen now: forum threads will be started to collect opinions, people that plays since f2p will ask to increase base damage of sci powers not knowing that this will further imbalance the game favouring escorts with ltc science slot, then maybe in two months if we are lucky we will be back to the situation of when the game started.
You seem to ignore the fact that that science power *were* balanced, and they broke them one after the other.
With PSW3 "fix" they finished the job: science is dead.
My guess would be "shortest job first". The formula was seen as inconsistent, and it was easy to fix, so they did it with half a man-hour or something like that.
Whereas other bugs would require a lot more work, including bughunting (meaning: find the actual problem in the code) which you never know how long it actually takes, depending on the way the code is written.
I think you really really are missing the point... and why a lot of vets are bit hot about this one... THIS WAS NOT A BUG. This was a balance decision made long ago on this skill. A Balance choice that frankly was working as the dev that made the change intended... and one that everyone in the game was happy with. Yes someone noticed the math didn't fit into a spread sheet curve... (NOT EVERY Piece of math in the game needs to btw).
Basicly one dev undid a balance change made by another I am assuming on the mistaken thought that it was in error... which it was not. Now if he plans to further tinker to make the skill better fine... but the dev before him decided rampiing the dmg through the levels as it was was the proper balance change to make. That's the point Sophie... it worked as it was before not because all the big bad pvpers wanted it that way... it worked that way so the big bad pvpers didn't load shockwave 1s and run annoying teams anymore.
I can imagine that the dev from the past you mentioned included some kind of "use formula X, unless ability level is 3, then use formula Y", while the game rule documentation merely states "use formula X". You are saying this rather complicated approach should have stayed. I say that if there is a balance issue with formula X, fix formula X, but don't fudge.
Thats the point Sophie... Forumla X in this case CAN NOT For balance reasons apply to all 3 levels. That was the decision Cryptic made... and recently forgot about. I'm sorry in your perfect world yes every single skill in the game would follow nice smooth ramps.... ask your self WHY that is needed ? If Level 1 is 10 and level 2 is 20 does level 3 always have to be 30.... you would argue yes I see... I would argue NO this is a work of art not a calculus exam. If the game works better with Level 3 = 40 in this case... so be it.
Jumping level 1 to 20 and level 2 to 30... is not an option that is what existed before... and it allowed the issue we already described to you.
The need for perfect math in the code is NOT needed. Where is there ANYWHERE documentation that states how any of the levels of shockwave works... if your talking about the tool tips in game... they don't list the formula anywhere. So you are saying cause you can test the dmg on them and it doesn't scale nicely its an issue. Things don't always have to be symmetrical.
While i would agree that PSW3 should be more viable than the beforemention PSW1 spam that we all agree was horrible...it should have been made differently.
If the BASE of PSW3 was double, noone would have noticed the bug. The problem with PSW3 was that it recieved double the amount of power from all +particle skills. Which was imho stupid and incostistent.
Dont get me wrong, my tac/recon feels toothless now, but how this was handled could yield horrible results in the future.
If Cryptic decided to for example double the bonus of sci consoles, PSW3 would easily end up in 100k numbers.
What is wrong, is that there was no dev discussion about the impact of this "fix". Lack of communication is horrible, and I got my lesson. No more bug reporting from me, although I know my share of still buged stuff.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
There isn't really any indication that Cryptic actually uses Tribble as a testing server. Changes only introduced on Tribble a few days prior are rolled out onto the live server all the time.
Now, wouldn't it be good to have a smooth and clean and overseeable procedure in the code? Because then, you can more easily see how it will work, how it should work, and, even more important, how to adjust it in the future if required. The more complicated the code is, the more likely there will be bugs, and we don't want bugs. So the code must be simple. Must be. There is no viable alternative to keeping the code as smooth and simple as possible. Really.
You still appear to be ignoring what Husanak was saying... in any case, do you code for a living? There's nothing inherently more complicated about having PSW scale off of particle gens instead of its base damage. It's literally just a number (or a variable if it's a polynomial) change. Calling it a "bug" is misleading, because it's only a "bug" insofar as Borticus believes the values being returned aren't good for game balance.
Now, wouldn't it be good to have a smooth and clean and overseeable procedure in the code? Because then, you can more easily see how it will work, how it should work, and, even more important, how to adjust it in the future if required. The more complicated the code is, the more likely there will be bugs, and we don't want bugs. So the code must be simple. Must be. There is no viable alternative to keeping the code as smooth and simple as possible. Really.
Except, from what Borticus is implying, they're not going to even think about adjusting the ability, because it would simply take too much time. So the procedure, thanks to their apparent convoluted coding, is not smooth. It is not clean. Because otherwise, they would have gone through the code to ensure the damage levels stayed the same. Why?
For the same reason people have been trying to get through your thick skull, including myself. You are consciously ignoring the second, *large* part of Cryptic's purpose in regards to this game--BALANCE. Let me break this down into a simple math proof for you:
IF a bug exists, it is either A.) game-breaking or B.) not game-breaking.
IF bug creates imbalance C, THEN you must apply a fix D
IF bug is B and doesn't create C, THEN fix D must ensure equal outcome.
IF fix D causes imbalance C, THEN you have failed at D and created A OR C
There you go. Cryptic created imbalance by "fixing" a non-game-breaking and balanced "bug" in the code. So really, your idea of a "smooth" and "clean" procedure is Cryptic causing massive amounts of game imbalance. But so long as the code is sparkly clean, you're okay with it.
While i would agree that PSW3 should be more viable than the beforemention PSW1 spam that we all agree was horrible...it should have been made differently.
If the BASE of PSW3 was double, noone would have noticed the bug. The problem with PSW3 was that it recieved double the amount of power from all +particle skills. Which was imho stupid and incostistent.
Dont get me wrong, my tac/recon feels toothless now, but how this was handled could yield horrible results in the future.
If Cryptic decided to for example double the bonus of sci consoles, PSW3 would easily end up in 100k numbers.
What is wrong, is that there was no dev discussion about the impact of this "fix". Lack of communication is horrible, and I got my lesson. No more bug reporting from me, although I know my share of still buged stuff.
No one blames anyone for telling them Dalnar... I have seen reports in the report section as well... I don't think they read that though... and Mr. B has been taking an interest in our little area of the forums which is a good thing after all.
I could see how perhaps a sci console change could have been a bad mix...really though if the way it worked was noted on there end... you would think it wouldn't be a bit deal to take say that 2.0 number and reduce it to 1.25 or something if they ever did something like that.
I liked the way it worked before... it rewarded a sci ship for running something other then a Field Gen... Frankly I think the game would be FAR MORE balanced if all sci consoles worked the same way for level 3s of the skills. (if people need consistency)....
As a matter of fact if borticus is reading... I think it could be a good solution to the current sci issues. (although it sounds your code is to convoluted to make this a quick change)... Allow ALL sci consoles to effect Level 3s ONLY of every OFFENSIVE sci skill (please not already powerful heals) in a way that the consoles multiply effect as they where doing with PSW 3. It would reward sci ships alone for running the 3rd versions and committing there builds to them.... cause you see the as it is every sci ship and more annoyingly every carrier is better off slotting 4-5 Field Generators, and having 20k in shields... which is BAD FOR balance. If people had an option of say making there shockwaves, gravity wells... ect really have some effect if they where to run 1-3 fens and 1-3 dmg units instead... it would be good for the game, it would also keep any dmg increase to the base dmg of the one skills... out of the hands of escorts that don't need the dmg bump. As for the bops... same thing if they want to run a level 3 Sci attack skill and commit there 3 sci consoles slots to it.... no balance issue there.
carrier is better off slotting 4-5 Field Generators, and having 20k in shields... which is BAD FOR balance.
but good for the wallet... Field Gens are Dili, and when people need Dili, they buy Zen and exchange to Dili. All the devs have to do is keep pumping Dili into the exchange...
As a matter of fact if borticus is reading... I think it could be a good solution to the current sci issues. (although it sounds your code is to convoluted to make this a quick change)... Allow ALL sci consoles to effect Level 3s ONLY of every OFFENSIVE sci skill (please not already powerful heals) in a way that the consoles multiply effect as they where doing with PSW 3
That is the solution.
+1 to this
A similar approach will istantly fix:
CPB3
PSW3
Tachyon Beam 3
Gravity Well 3
This way the additional damage\drain output will not be applied to escorts running the same ability but without particle generators or flow capacitors consoles.
Borticus can you please restore the bug you just "fixed", and introduce the very same "bug" also in the abilities above?
Thanks.
That is the solution.
+1 to this
A similar approach will istantly fix:
CPB3
PSW3
Tachyon Beam 3
Gravity Well 3
This way the additional damage\drain output will not be applied to escorts running the same ability but without particle generators or flow capacitors consoles.
Borticus can you please restore the bug you just "fixed", and introduce the very same "bug" also in the abilities above?
Thanks.
I'll 3rd it.
With the added caveat, of making sure skills like Inertial Dampeners actually functions.
Also, up the amount of pull Graviton gives things like GW in particular. This way the DPS wizards (tacs) get their needed dps, and debuff wizards (sci) get the ability to do what they need to do best which is debuff.
Come on guys, do you seriously think they're going to put that kind of time into the coding to balance pvp?
They came in and fixed a bug that could easily not even have been a bug, but instead a code to balance the power.
They've proven time and time again that they don't understand they're own programming. After the amount of bug's they've introduced by trying to tweak a part of their coding while not understanding how it affects other things linked to it, do you really think they're going to devote any time to something that makes them no money, or instead use they're time developing the next lockbox item or P2W ship they can cash in on? Oh, and lets not forget they nerfed the TRIBBLE out of every other offensive sci power and we've asked them for months to re-balance those.
I said it months ago, and I'll say it again. P2W consoles and pets ARE the new sci class. The more they nerf sci abilities into the ground, the more lethal P2W consoles and pets (especially now that they've taken one more weapon to kill them) become. Welcome to F2P!
I see they're back to giving infractions in the forums! I'd be more worried about it if I thought borticus was even still reading this thread...
Ot was not Cryptic. If it had been Cryptic, it would have been documented, so that Cryptic could remember it. It was just one dev at Cryptic, who apparently forgot a very essential task, that is, the documentation.
Not necessarily "smooth ramps", but a single formula applied to all three levels of an ability, because that keeps the code simple and the bugs down.
First off, did someone from cryptic come on the forums and say that documenting the reason for every piece of coding is something they do? I may have missed that post, but your making it sound like this was some lone dev who played by his own rules or something...
How does a single formula for all three abilities not create a smooth ramp? If it did create something that isnt a smooth ramp, whats the difference as to what it was before pre-nerf then?
No. But it should be (and probably is) done, because the cost of not doing it is just too high, especially with a software like an MMO's that you want to maintain and expand over years to come.
It could be a formula that works exponentially? Such as "base damage x skill level^(ability level)" or some such. (This is just an example.)
Oh, so your just assuming something and basing your arguments on something you believe to be true, but not a single dev has ever come on here and said?
So your argument before was that the coding didn't scale for PSW3 so therefore was a bug, but your counter argument is that it doesnt have to scale as long as it follows a single formula? As long as neither scales, if the current state is balanced, why spend a single minute on it, much less half a man hour (which your smoking crack if you believe it only took that) when there are much worse bugs in the system that AREN'T balanced?
Why isn't their priority list more like:
1. Find and fix bugs that affect balance of the game
2. Find and fix bugs that aren't causing balance issues within the game
Heres a quote that pretty well sums up why they're messing with stuff like this that isnt hurting game balance
P2W consoles and pets ARE the new sci class. The more they nerf sci abilities into the ground, the more lethal P2W consoles and pets (especially now that they've taken one more weapon to kill them) become. Welcome to F2P!
So, guys, let's recap what has been said so far, let's leave alone Logimo and his theories (he will reply forever to any single post that does not agree with him, including this one) and let's focus on solving the problem for Borticus.
We basically have two solutions proposed:
Solution A Dalnar solution: increase the base damage on rank 3 of the ability, and of other science offensive abilities. Something like 1x - 2x - 4x for ranks of science abilities
Solution B Husanakx solution: leave the base damage as it was before, restore the *2 multiplier on version III of PSW, and use the same formula also on CPB3, Tachyon Beam 3, Gravity Well 3.
Let's vote on this, I'm sure that Borticus is reading.
My vote is:
Solution A was done in the past, and unfortunately had the very big problem of making available to bops a very powerful and unbalanced "finisher move" even when the captain did not invest in particle generator skill or consoles. The problem is also present on version 1 of PSW when used on escorts with LTC sci slot.
B solution, supported also by ghostyandfrosty and me, could restore the sci balance that was in place before the new skill tree and before Borticus "fix".
Imho, with this solution, full sci\sci builds will be possible again.
Just to clarify, I wanted to increase the base dmg only on the rank III ability.
Something like 1x - 2x - 4x for ranks of science abilities.
The reason for this is that science consoles affect more than one thing generally. If you apply the same stuff (*2) to all science consoles than you might end in rather tasteless combination.
A carrier
power siphon pets
polaron build
tetryon glider
tychyon beam
Energy syphon
All effected by single console type
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I can understand dalnars concern about... some of the possible synergies of the consoles.
I don't think it would be an issue... as ONLY the level 3s of those skills would be effected by the multiplication of console powers. Meaning things like glider polaron and tet would be effected at the regular rate they are now.
I think being able to design builds that would play to this should be OK.
Some of the builds that would be viable again... would be things like Tachyon 3 + CPB 3... yes these would both have there numbers boosted by the same consoles. Those same consoles would effect say glider and tet procs but no more then they do now.... net effect I don't think would be unbalanced... in order to run level 3s of both those skills... you would be dedicating both the commander and one sci lt. commander on a ship to the purpose. I don't think it would be unbalanced....
On the drain build... Tykens 3 and Siphen 3 can not be run together... and of course share a cool down. The consoles would boost things like polaron... but again not more then they are now.
What I think can work about that idea... is it doesn't just give people a boost for nothing. Having that super strong Gravity Well 3... or a good shield stripping CPB / Tachyon ship... would require you to dedicate at least a couple of your sci slots to your main attack skill... (Just like a more weapon based ship would dedicate there tac slots to the purpose... people don't put there p2w units in there tac slots do they).... it would be great if putting things other then your dmg units in the sci slots was as hard a choice.
Really Dalnars idea may work fine as well... I think the key thing many of seem to be agreeing on is that the Level 3 sci offense skills deserve to be increased in a non liner way... they should be the shining star of a build. Meaning a shield stripper runs those tachyons and cpb3s... and has them really work... and that drain build can use a tykens or a siphen... and a control build can be built around that powerfuly pulling Gravity Well 3.
I don't think any of us want to see Mvams... and the new Fleet Advanced... or BOPS...gettinig massive boosts in a sci fix for running level 1s of any of these skills.. really the level 1s I think are mostly fine... its that purely dedicated Sci Ship built really around 1 or perhaps 2 (Tachyon is the only one that can be doubled I think) level 3 skills... that right now just don't do enough of anything to justify dedicating your sci slots to.
I don't want to see everyone running as many field gens in there sci slots as they can... really that is what we have... out side of a minimal boost to Tet Glider and Tetryon / Polaron procs... there is no real alternative for sci slots outside of field gens and p2w.
PS perhaps one other solution to the sci issue ... is to put sci console numbers back to where they where around launch.... double most of the sci unit numbers... making it possible to increase the effect of the sci skills... I think this would reward the Mvams and bops again (then again only if they don't run 3 field gens right)... but perhaps its a simple solution Borticus could sell to his bosses.
Actually the very first thing I would do is to balance science consoles in a way they buff roughly same number of skills/abiliities or consoles AND that those resistance consoles actually work. It's really stupid how some consoles affect 10 things, while other only 1 or two.
Also I'm not that much of fan of super specialization for science ships (but that's rather subjective), Why not tripple the value of all science +skill consoles, and make them unique. That would increase the relative power of science console slots and give science ships edge more or less.
Also, one thing you forget with that suggestion of yours, is that if you allow double benefit for +particle gens for III abilities, you do that not only fot he consoles, but skills and deflector dishes as well. So it actually makes the skill much more viable and worth the points.
I have generally nothing against Husanaks suggestion. But I would put flow capacitors and particle gens as the top science skill abilities in the skill tree. At very least I would swap the position of sensors and flow caps.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Comments
You are wrong, adjustments were necessary according to almost everyone on this forum (and we had visits from PVE forum too).
There are only two persons that seem to like what has been done: Borticus and you.
And, by the way, you are overvaluating Cryptic.
1) The fix itself has some weird bugs thate were reported on this thread *before the release*: for example when you increase particle generators over a certain value, tooltip damage of PSW3 stops increasing (it's capped at 5624... yes, developer is a genious).
2) (and more important) This new state of things for psw will last months or years, and we don't know if it will ever be fixed. How do I know this? Look at decloacking bug for bops, or at the state of Charged Particle Burst, or at the state of <name an offensive science ability here>, or at the accuracy problem of faw. What Borticus did is no different in method from what the previous developer did, with the only difference that this is wrong and previous setting was right.
To break it down as simply as I can I will try to use as few words as I can.....
Cryptic has had STO going for 2 years....
1.5 years ago... a group of players discovered that you could put Shockwave on a Tactical Built BOP... this was VERY VERY Effective.... so much so that half the game cried nerf that TRIBBLE.
At that time a Cryptic Employee... decided that to fix this issue... he would Nerf mainly the shockwave stun length, and also add a stun immunity mechanic to the game.
Now I am going to assume that the code for the stun time and the dmg component are some what entwined... or at least that's what said dev alluded to at the time... So he made a BALANCE DECISION.
He dropped the dmg and the stun time on shock wave accross the board... and then made the CHOICE to have it not scale as you would expect... because frankly he didn't want the skill to be shelved by everyone... he just didn't want to see groups of one class of ship spam Shockwave Level 1 to game ending effect.
His BALANCE decision at the time was likely the best way to go. People still slotted shock waves... but groups of all shock wave escort/bops where put on the shelf. (what the dev wanted you see)
Now 1.5 years later... a NEW developer working on the same bit of code... looked it over and likely had no idea that the "Math" error he was seeing was completely intentional... as a BALANCE choice.
Frankly with the stun immunity now I doubt we see the return of shockwave level 1 bop groups... however if he does increase the stun now that everyone cries HEY FIX THIS.... well we will be most of the way back to the problem the other dev was trying to fix 1.5 years ago.... they are running in circles and its painful... and NO the game doesn't have to have every single piece of math scale at an exact ratio... this is not a spread sheet... its a VIDEO GAME... which is an art form created by people who make choices in regards to the rules to make things fun to play. And now as Jorf was saying be quite.
out of all the issues we've complained about,
out of all the bugs we've reported,
out of the content we've asked for....
what made you decide that shockwave 3 had to be "fixed".
seriously, I'd like to know why this was "fixed" before all the other major issues that are known and have been asked to be looked at a lot more.
was it because this was a relativly easy fix? (seems like it was just a number multiplier)
was it because "fixing" it might have an impact on the "massive overhaul" that is "comming" to pvp?
i look forward to hearing the reasoning behind this decision. thanks
As I said, i will stop playing if this situation lasts more than a couple of weeks.
You don't fly a science ship on your main so maybe you can't understand how bad the situation is.
They are useless!!!
All science abilities except heals are broken!
I've played this game for long enough to know that we will never get a general balance pass on science abilities.
And this "fix" on PSW3 is the demonstration that there's no documentation of what has been done in the past to balance powers.
Here's what will happen now: forum threads will be started to collect opinions, people that plays since f2p will ask to increase base damage of sci powers not knowing that this will further imbalance the game favouring escorts with ltc science slot, then maybe in two months if we are lucky we will be back to the situation of when the game started.
You seem to ignore the fact that that science power *were* balanced, and they broke them one after the other.
With PSW3 "fix" they finished the job: science is dead.
I think you really really are missing the point... and why a lot of vets are bit hot about this one... THIS WAS NOT A BUG. This was a balance decision made long ago on this skill. A Balance choice that frankly was working as the dev that made the change intended... and one that everyone in the game was happy with. Yes someone noticed the math didn't fit into a spread sheet curve... (NOT EVERY Piece of math in the game needs to btw).
Basicly one dev undid a balance change made by another I am assuming on the mistaken thought that it was in error... which it was not. Now if he plans to further tinker to make the skill better fine... but the dev before him decided rampiing the dmg through the levels as it was was the proper balance change to make. That's the point Sophie... it worked as it was before not because all the big bad pvpers wanted it that way... it worked that way so the big bad pvpers didn't load shockwave 1s and run annoying teams anymore.
Thats the point Sophie... Forumla X in this case CAN NOT For balance reasons apply to all 3 levels. That was the decision Cryptic made... and recently forgot about. I'm sorry in your perfect world yes every single skill in the game would follow nice smooth ramps.... ask your self WHY that is needed ? If Level 1 is 10 and level 2 is 20 does level 3 always have to be 30.... you would argue yes I see... I would argue NO this is a work of art not a calculus exam. If the game works better with Level 3 = 40 in this case... so be it.
Jumping level 1 to 20 and level 2 to 30... is not an option that is what existed before... and it allowed the issue we already described to you.
The need for perfect math in the code is NOT needed. Where is there ANYWHERE documentation that states how any of the levels of shockwave works... if your talking about the tool tips in game... they don't list the formula anywhere. So you are saying cause you can test the dmg on them and it doesn't scale nicely its an issue. Things don't always have to be symmetrical.
If the BASE of PSW3 was double, noone would have noticed the bug. The problem with PSW3 was that it recieved double the amount of power from all +particle skills. Which was imho stupid and incostistent.
Dont get me wrong, my tac/recon feels toothless now, but how this was handled could yield horrible results in the future.
If Cryptic decided to for example double the bonus of sci consoles, PSW3 would easily end up in 100k numbers.
What is wrong, is that there was no dev discussion about the impact of this "fix". Lack of communication is horrible, and I got my lesson. No more bug reporting from me, although I know my share of still buged stuff.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
You still appear to be ignoring what Husanak was saying... in any case, do you code for a living? There's nothing inherently more complicated about having PSW scale off of particle gens instead of its base damage. It's literally just a number (or a variable if it's a polynomial) change. Calling it a "bug" is misleading, because it's only a "bug" insofar as Borticus believes the values being returned aren't good for game balance.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Except, from what Borticus is implying, they're not going to even think about adjusting the ability, because it would simply take too much time. So the procedure, thanks to their apparent convoluted coding, is not smooth. It is not clean. Because otherwise, they would have gone through the code to ensure the damage levels stayed the same. Why?
For the same reason people have been trying to get through your thick skull, including myself. You are consciously ignoring the second, *large* part of Cryptic's purpose in regards to this game--BALANCE. Let me break this down into a simple math proof for you:
IF a bug exists, it is either A.) game-breaking or B.) not game-breaking.
IF bug creates imbalance C, THEN you must apply a fix D
IF bug is B and doesn't create C, THEN fix D must ensure equal outcome.
IF fix D causes imbalance C, THEN you have failed at D and created A OR C
There you go. Cryptic created imbalance by "fixing" a non-game-breaking and balanced "bug" in the code. So really, your idea of a "smooth" and "clean" procedure is Cryptic causing massive amounts of game imbalance. But so long as the code is sparkly clean, you're okay with it.
Faaaantastic. :rolleyes:
No one blames anyone for telling them Dalnar... I have seen reports in the report section as well... I don't think they read that though... and Mr. B has been taking an interest in our little area of the forums which is a good thing after all.
I could see how perhaps a sci console change could have been a bad mix...really though if the way it worked was noted on there end... you would think it wouldn't be a bit deal to take say that 2.0 number and reduce it to 1.25 or something if they ever did something like that.
I liked the way it worked before... it rewarded a sci ship for running something other then a Field Gen... Frankly I think the game would be FAR MORE balanced if all sci consoles worked the same way for level 3s of the skills. (if people need consistency)....
As a matter of fact if borticus is reading... I think it could be a good solution to the current sci issues. (although it sounds your code is to convoluted to make this a quick change)... Allow ALL sci consoles to effect Level 3s ONLY of every OFFENSIVE sci skill (please not already powerful heals) in a way that the consoles multiply effect as they where doing with PSW 3. It would reward sci ships alone for running the 3rd versions and committing there builds to them.... cause you see the as it is every sci ship and more annoyingly every carrier is better off slotting 4-5 Field Generators, and having 20k in shields... which is BAD FOR balance. If people had an option of say making there shockwaves, gravity wells... ect really have some effect if they where to run 1-3 fens and 1-3 dmg units instead... it would be good for the game, it would also keep any dmg increase to the base dmg of the one skills... out of the hands of escorts that don't need the dmg bump. As for the bops... same thing if they want to run a level 3 Sci attack skill and commit there 3 sci consoles slots to it.... no balance issue there.
but good for the wallet... Field Gens are Dili, and when people need Dili, they buy Zen and exchange to Dili. All the devs have to do is keep pumping Dili into the exchange...
That is the solution.
+1 to this
A similar approach will istantly fix:
CPB3
PSW3
Tachyon Beam 3
Gravity Well 3
This way the additional damage\drain output will not be applied to escorts running the same ability but without particle generators or flow capacitors consoles.
Borticus can you please restore the bug you just "fixed", and introduce the very same "bug" also in the abilities above?
Thanks.
I'll 3rd it.
With the added caveat, of making sure skills like Inertial Dampeners actually functions.
Also, up the amount of pull Graviton gives things like GW in particular. This way the DPS wizards (tacs) get their needed dps, and debuff wizards (sci) get the ability to do what they need to do best which is debuff.
They came in and fixed a bug that could easily not even have been a bug, but instead a code to balance the power.
They've proven time and time again that they don't understand they're own programming. After the amount of bug's they've introduced by trying to tweak a part of their coding while not understanding how it affects other things linked to it, do you really think they're going to devote any time to something that makes them no money, or instead use they're time developing the next lockbox item or P2W ship they can cash in on? Oh, and lets not forget they nerfed the TRIBBLE out of every other offensive sci power and we've asked them for months to re-balance those.
I said it months ago, and I'll say it again. P2W consoles and pets ARE the new sci class. The more they nerf sci abilities into the ground, the more lethal P2W consoles and pets (especially now that they've taken one more weapon to kill them) become. Welcome to F2P!
I see they're back to giving infractions in the forums! I'd be more worried about it if I thought borticus was even still reading this thread...
Oh, and sophie, please shut up.
First off, did someone from cryptic come on the forums and say that documenting the reason for every piece of coding is something they do? I may have missed that post, but your making it sound like this was some lone dev who played by his own rules or something...
How does a single formula for all three abilities not create a smooth ramp? If it did create something that isnt a smooth ramp, whats the difference as to what it was before pre-nerf then?
Oh, so your just assuming something and basing your arguments on something you believe to be true, but not a single dev has ever come on here and said?
So your argument before was that the coding didn't scale for PSW3 so therefore was a bug, but your counter argument is that it doesnt have to scale as long as it follows a single formula? As long as neither scales, if the current state is balanced, why spend a single minute on it, much less half a man hour (which your smoking crack if you believe it only took that) when there are much worse bugs in the system that AREN'T balanced?
Why isn't their priority list more like:
1. Find and fix bugs that affect balance of the game
2. Find and fix bugs that aren't causing balance issues within the game
Heres a quote that pretty well sums up why they're messing with stuff like this that isnt hurting game balance
We basically have two solutions proposed:
Solution A
Dalnar solution: increase the base damage on rank 3 of the ability, and of other science offensive abilities. Something like 1x - 2x - 4x for ranks of science abilities
Solution B
Husanakx solution: leave the base damage as it was before, restore the *2 multiplier on version III of PSW, and use the same formula also on CPB3, Tachyon Beam 3, Gravity Well 3.
Let's vote on this, I'm sure that Borticus is reading.
My vote is:
Solution A was done in the past, and unfortunately had the very big problem of making available to bops a very powerful and unbalanced "finisher move" even when the captain did not invest in particle generator skill or consoles. The problem is also present on version 1 of PSW when used on escorts with LTC sci slot.
B solution, supported also by ghostyandfrosty and me, could restore the sci balance that was in place before the new skill tree and before Borticus "fix".
Imho, with this solution, full sci\sci builds will be possible again.
B
Something like 1x - 2x - 4x for ranks of science abilities.
The reason for this is that science consoles affect more than one thing generally. If you apply the same stuff (*2) to all science consoles than you might end in rather tasteless combination.
A carrier
power siphon pets
polaron build
tetryon glider
tychyon beam
Energy syphon
All effected by single console type
Thanks, I will correct the post above
I don't think it would be an issue... as ONLY the level 3s of those skills would be effected by the multiplication of console powers. Meaning things like glider polaron and tet would be effected at the regular rate they are now.
I think being able to design builds that would play to this should be OK.
Some of the builds that would be viable again... would be things like Tachyon 3 + CPB 3... yes these would both have there numbers boosted by the same consoles. Those same consoles would effect say glider and tet procs but no more then they do now.... net effect I don't think would be unbalanced... in order to run level 3s of both those skills... you would be dedicating both the commander and one sci lt. commander on a ship to the purpose. I don't think it would be unbalanced....
On the drain build... Tykens 3 and Siphen 3 can not be run together... and of course share a cool down. The consoles would boost things like polaron... but again not more then they are now.
What I think can work about that idea... is it doesn't just give people a boost for nothing. Having that super strong Gravity Well 3... or a good shield stripping CPB / Tachyon ship... would require you to dedicate at least a couple of your sci slots to your main attack skill... (Just like a more weapon based ship would dedicate there tac slots to the purpose... people don't put there p2w units in there tac slots do they).... it would be great if putting things other then your dmg units in the sci slots was as hard a choice.
Really Dalnars idea may work fine as well... I think the key thing many of seem to be agreeing on is that the Level 3 sci offense skills deserve to be increased in a non liner way... they should be the shining star of a build. Meaning a shield stripper runs those tachyons and cpb3s... and has them really work... and that drain build can use a tykens or a siphen... and a control build can be built around that powerfuly pulling Gravity Well 3.
I don't think any of us want to see Mvams... and the new Fleet Advanced... or BOPS...gettinig massive boosts in a sci fix for running level 1s of any of these skills.. really the level 1s I think are mostly fine... its that purely dedicated Sci Ship built really around 1 or perhaps 2 (Tachyon is the only one that can be doubled I think) level 3 skills... that right now just don't do enough of anything to justify dedicating your sci slots to.
I don't want to see everyone running as many field gens in there sci slots as they can... really that is what we have... out side of a minimal boost to Tet Glider and Tetryon / Polaron procs... there is no real alternative for sci slots outside of field gens and p2w.
PS perhaps one other solution to the sci issue ... is to put sci console numbers back to where they where around launch.... double most of the sci unit numbers... making it possible to increase the effect of the sci skills... I think this would reward the Mvams and bops again (then again only if they don't run 3 field gens right)... but perhaps its a simple solution Borticus could sell to his bosses.
Also I'm not that much of fan of super specialization for science ships (but that's rather subjective), Why not tripple the value of all science +skill consoles, and make them unique. That would increase the relative power of science console slots and give science ships edge more or less.
Also, one thing you forget with that suggestion of yours, is that if you allow double benefit for +particle gens for III abilities, you do that not only fot he consoles, but skills and deflector dishes as well. So it actually makes the skill much more viable and worth the points.
I have generally nothing against Husanaks suggestion. But I would put flow capacitors and particle gens as the top science skill abilities in the skill tree. At very least I would swap the position of sensors and flow caps.