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Borticus: revert PSW3 changes ASAP!!!
francescos77
Member Posts: 122 Arc User
UPDATE: see this post http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5360861&postcount=207 for the end of the discussion and voting.
ORIGINAL POST:
I've tested the new patch on tribble test server.
Facts:
1)
- PSW3 before the patch delivered about 10K damage without Particle Generators consoles (but with 9 points on the skill)
- PSW3 AFTER the patch delivers about 4K damage without Particle Generators consoles (but with 9 points on the skill)
2)
- PSW3 after the patch delivered about 20K damage with 4 purple MK XII Particle Generators consoles.
- PSW3 AFTER the patch delivers about 5K damage with 4 purple MK XII Particle Generators consoles.
It was the only SCI commander ability that was working well, and this comes after:
- Nerfing and making useless all SCI shield drain abilities (CPB, Tachyon Beam)
- Nerfing and making useless (even in PVE) Gravity Well 3
Only tyken\power drain builds are working now on a SCI ship, even too much, THAT must be nerfed, but AFTER fixing all the above.
The majority of pvpers are escort\cruiser captains and they complain on the forums when they get shockwaved, mostly ignoring that in order for this ability to be deadly this required:
- heavy investment in particle generators consoles
- target 3km range
- target facing shield down (usually for a second)
- target without brace for impact or emergency power to inertial dampers active
- target with resistance debuffed
I suppose that next step is nerf TBR, so that all SCI captains must switch to escorts or cruiser.
If this patch makes its way to holodeck i will stop playing.
ORIGINAL POST:
I've tested the new patch on tribble test server.
Facts:
1)
- PSW3 before the patch delivered about 10K damage without Particle Generators consoles (but with 9 points on the skill)
- PSW3 AFTER the patch delivers about 4K damage without Particle Generators consoles (but with 9 points on the skill)
2)
- PSW3 after the patch delivered about 20K damage with 4 purple MK XII Particle Generators consoles.
- PSW3 AFTER the patch delivers about 5K damage with 4 purple MK XII Particle Generators consoles.
It was the only SCI commander ability that was working well, and this comes after:
- Nerfing and making useless all SCI shield drain abilities (CPB, Tachyon Beam)
- Nerfing and making useless (even in PVE) Gravity Well 3
Only tyken\power drain builds are working now on a SCI ship, even too much, THAT must be nerfed, but AFTER fixing all the above.
The majority of pvpers are escort\cruiser captains and they complain on the forums when they get shockwaved, mostly ignoring that in order for this ability to be deadly this required:
- heavy investment in particle generators consoles
- target 3km range
- target facing shield down (usually for a second)
- target without brace for impact or emergency power to inertial dampers active
- target with resistance debuffed
I suppose that next step is nerf TBR, so that all SCI captains must switch to escorts or cruiser.
If this patch makes its way to holodeck i will stop playing.
Post edited by francescos77 on
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In other words, if it did 1000 base and 200% that at max skill, the math was:
(1000*2)*2
That's just wrong. Further made obvious by the fact that this error did not exist in PSW1 or PSW2.
I'll accept arguments that the power needs to be more damaging in general, or maybe more effective in other ways, but claiming that an error should stay live because it was helping you perform well is a logical fallacy.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Then it will indeed need a buff after the fix is in place.
OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
Season 7 - Exodus, available online. U buy nao!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/738221-monetizing-perfect-world-s-latest-update
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Are you sure it's an error?
The dev that implemented it probably concluded that PSW1, being available also on escorts with LTC slot, would have been too much deadly (take down shields with rapid fire 3+omega, boom with PSW1).
PSW3 is a commander ability, therefore only available on SCI ships, SCI ships need time to take down enemy shields, because they lack dps, and also because shield stripping abilities are broken, but if they manage to do so, then they can use PSW3.
Now, can you please tell how a SCI toon is supposed to play?
Also, there is an error even in your "fix": no difference in PSW3 damage betweeen 4 or 3 purple mk xii particle gen consoles: did you cap the skill???
You guys need to review all the offensive science powers! Near the hole community agrees that they are useless! Please, consider a review to them!
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
For the record, I agree, too. Finding time in the schedule to do so is ... non-trivial.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
But you found the time to "kill" the last working boff ability, making a whole class of ships useless until next fix.
Also, consider what i've written before: it was correct that PSW3 benefitted more than PSW1 from particle generators!
When this patch hits holodeck, no SCI build will be useful, except for a tyken build because power drains are also broken.
shockwave 3 was doing too much damage.
now itll be doing too little damage.
ever since the stuns got nerfed they were no longer really used for that, now the damage is being "nerfed" for the only damageing science power out there.
there really is no point in flying a science ship anymore. escorts and cruisers can do everything a science can, and do it better.
why is that?
the game has no real crowd control.
power drain powers can be taken by cruisers and escorts and phasers are stil the number 1 power disable in the game.
heals can be taken by everyone, why bother with a science ship
escorts are still king of damage, science used to help set up for the kill with stuns, and holds but now you dont need to do this. you just sit and super stack damage buffs until the target is destroyed.
the only useful offensive science power now is viral matrix, and its prehaps a bit too strong for what it does (espically combined with 3 duty officers that make them better.)
my vm 1 does a 7.8 second disable followed by 2 25% chances to disable 2 more subsystems for 7.2 seconds.
this is a power that can be used by select escorts and cruisers. why bother with a science ship?
shockwave 3 may not have been working as intended, with these changes it just becomes an over netured power that is wasting a slot that can be used by... well nothing else really.
maybe bumping up the multiplyer for the shockwaves with each version is in order? have 1 bbe 100%, 2 be 125% and 3 be 150%?
if 2 and 3 are too close in damage thered be no need for 3 since they take up the same commander slot.
borticus, i'd really like to know if its possible to give the science seciton of the skill tree a redo. this is where a lot of the problems for science is comming from.
to few selections boost/resist too many powers.
the root cause of bad science is the skill tree.
who is it non-trival to? id like to know who to send my letters of pleading/beggingness too to get science back into "playability" compaired to crusiers and escorts.
Basically there are other more annoying abilities that need a look at first imo. Maybe VM/ Some of the drains/tricmine etc.
Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
Exactly.
Now, tell this to someone that spent:
- 20 bucks on fleet dssv
- 20 bucks on fleet advanced research science vessel
- 20 bucks on fleet recon
- 150 bucks on the tholian ship
- 30 millions EC for 4 particle generators consoles
And he ends with four useless ships with four useless consoles, because time to fix the fix needs to be found on the schedule.
Just prevent tomorrow patch from hitting holodeck until you find the time to fix sci powers, Borticus!
that tholian ship can still be nasty without science (even though its science themed) a universal ltcmdr helps a ton with that.
you can neglect my pvp, you can introduce broken p2w consoles... but you nerf the last vestage of useable science powers and theres gonna be a massive riot!
So true, and very very sad.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Don't worry, starting from tomorrow, both damage AND stun will be useless.
well good thing it can push things..... because pushing something a few hundred feet is extremely useful in a game where the main measure is KM.
well once the feds get a hull damageing console i'll bite.
the first death knell of the sci captain was the combining of the skill tree. then snb doffs. sure theyre not on demand like a sci captain but they in theory could happen more often.
then came the sci resists (which we asked for but recieved after the combining of the skill tree and the resists dont even work on the p2w consoles).
then came the lack of pay to win science ships themselves....
now... the broken science powers that game science a chance are being fixed to the point of being "which useless power do i want first".
...-cries- and i just got my 20$ fleet recon sci ship... what a waste....
this is a symptom of pvp not mattering to those that make the schedule. the fundamentals like this make little difference in pve, were at least 90% of the time is spent by all users. for god knows why. good pvp starts with good ability balance, its the best place to start.
as far as PW goes, even if it was a math error, the damage it dealt was at a universally agreed good level. a fix to the math should have included correct math that kept the damage at about that same level. that new math should have been applied to all 3 grades of it too.
It's not just Sci skills that are messed up... the Sci skill tree is completely mind-boggling... why is a skill like Flow Cap at level one when it benefits so, so many different things in game? Why do I have to spec into two extremely expensive skills just to make my stuns/CC not suck? Why is a very basic skill that should be mandatory like Inertial Dampeners at captain (and moreover why is it still completely useless)?
It's even more frustrating when you realize that the Eng/Tac skill trees are pretty good and make a lot of sense. With both, you can spec cheaply into boosting your basic damage/defence, and if you want to specialize (in crits or in extra resists) you can spend more lavishly at the higher end. The Sci tree is nothing like this and it suffers immensely for it.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
If a power isn't working as intended, but is balanced, and fixing it means nerfing it into oblivion, then for the love of Pete don't fix it. You have exactly two valid choices: Change your intentions to match the current reality, or apply a counter-buff at the same time to ensure that the skill remains useful and balanced post-change -- and the later still requires extensive time on the test server before going to live.
When you started talking about measuring many times and cutting once, I had some hope that Cryptic might be distancing itself from what can only be called a dysfunctional design philosophy -- cut, and then let the community measure after changes hit live with little warning. The recent compromise with transphasic mines served to solidify that hope, but now it seems like we're back to square one. The quickest way to shed the system team's dysfunctional image is to listen to the community, which has been quite vocal in calling out this change to PSW as ill conceived the moment we heard of it. Likewise, the easiest way to lose the respect of the community is to ignore it.
All gloom and doom from others aside (riots, really?!) I also advocate a top down review of Science powers. In PvP (and pve) I literally laugh off all offensive science powers.
Only VM,SNB and leech console stacking minutely cause any worry. As it is science powers function more beneficially for annoying shield healing.
Exactly. And probably, as i said, it was not a math error, it was a correction made by <insert_previous_now_working_in_other_company_developer_name_here> in order to keep balanced the game.
I'm quite sure that I remember a 2 years old forum post where a developer (probably the famous "Archived Post") was explaining why PSW3 needed to do a lot of damage compared to PSW1. And i remember the reason was basically "because PSW1 is available on escorts".
Now, here is the updated list of useless science abilities:
- energy siphon, all versions, it's not useless on self (your power increases always) but target can clear the effect on itself with a lot of different powers. Just fix it or rename it to "emergency power to everything".
- gravity well. gravitational pull was supposed to be affected by graviton generators when the new skill tree was released, but never worked and now there's no way to increase it to a level that makes it useful. also damage is not enough.
- tachyon beam. shield drain is heavily resisted, even without investing in resist consoles. 9 points in the power insulators skill and your opponents laughs at you while you try to drain his shield
- charged particle burst. same as tachyon beam, but even worse because it's a commander ability, it strips 4k shields without resists, and it's buffed by PARTICLE GENERATORS instead of FLOW CAPACITORS, making impossible to stack consoles for buffing both tachyon beam and cpb. Oh, wait, there's an ultra-rare doff that adds 1k damage to it....
- photonic shockwave, thanks to the Borticus fix.
But luckily, in the commander slot we can still slot the following working science offensive abilities:
- Tyken Rift III. Except that is not an offensive ability. It's power drain one.
- Feedback pulse III. Except that in PvP after you use it one time, nobody fires at you again.
Well done.
J man, If you find the time to do this I'll arrange for my sister to kiss you, tongue no tongue, your choice !
Except TR isn't working either. Since the new skill tree the drain has become negligible. Much of the time you can regen power faster than it drains it from you, and that's without resists.
Honestly, breaking one-third of the classes in the game so severely and for so long is downright embarrassing. Hell, it's hard not to be embarrassed for the system's team, like watching some kind of cripple trying to compete in a paintball arena or something of that nature. We all know who's responsible for the majority of these boondoggles too -- it's long past time that Cryptic let the gecko go.
But, as someone who has and plays w/a Sci Captain often I disagree w/the idea of them not being of value. They come w/2 AoE defensive boosts, 1 AoE resist debuff, and not the least of them SNB. Photonic Fleet is the only dicey Sci Captain power.
Also, I've seen in my combat logs where 3 of 5 shots from the same player were TSSE. Not that I want to encourage it, but it appears Sci Ships w/Doffs are capabable of applying constant pressure to a target's subsystems. Not to mention the buffs to mines since most sci ship builds focus on projectile damage. Now add VMs ...
For those playing Feds AMS + SS can be very annoying to face and a solid counter to pet spams.
TBR still does solid support damage and w/repel not being aux dependent you can avoid a strong push if you'd like.
2 player TBs are nearly chainable. TB3 lasts 17 seconds, the cooldown starts when TB starts. This means there's only 3 seconds between TB3 and the next TB you use.
H.E and TSS are of the the best support skills since they have high value HoT and high resist boosts. Sci Team3 best spike shield boost in game.
Again, not that things don't need to be reworked, but there's still a few ways to make the Captain class, Boff abilities, and ships viable.
May I suggest for when Sci does get reworked, you build into it a simple way of tweeking ratios of effectiveness. It'd be easier to maintain balance if a Dev had only to change a couple of values in 1 place compared to what you guys seem to need to do now.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You're right, but at least with 4 purple mk xii flow capacitors consoles it's still useable... well, until Einstein finds out that there's a math error that needs to be corrected..
The BOff skills, though... every time I have to load out a Sci ship it's just a nightmare, it's so difficult to make anything have any synergy and you end up with a bunch of heals you don't even want because none of the offensive powers either work for you or work full stop.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Atleast for the most part the game is a lot better with systems than it was a year ago especially KDF side with a b'rel that was almost unusable.