1. From what I know, the c-store versions of the fleet ships will still have inferior stats to the fleet ships themselves. This is not exactly a ringing endorsement for the fleet ships.
2. The consoles are not exactly a ringing endorsement for some of these ships, either. Considering how much "room" the Odyssey triple-console setup takes, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps it's almost a disadvantage to carry these things. I imagine if I pick up the c-store AC refit, unless it's spectacular it's going to have the console rotting in my bank, most likely.
Unless I'm mistaking, I saw the Heavy Escort Carrier listed among the buyable ships on Tribble. If that is true, then there will be upgraded versions of the c-store ships too...
I left EVE Online specifically to get away from needing to be in player-run organizations to be competitive. You didn't NEED to be in a corporation in that game either, but....
Between this, and getting hives from PVP, you've pegged my problem, too.
Co-op roleplay does NOT mean that being part of a group is mandatory, it means CHOOSING whether to be a part of a group, whether the group is permanent or temporary, and whether you want to just grind by yourself, without all the drama and bull**** that goes with being in a Fleet.
--
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
I'm sorry, maybe I am missing something... let me restate the general feeling as I see it...
Complaint 1: Fleet Ships are better than C-Store Ships... unfair to those who bought C-Store Ships.
.
Well, you're definitely missing something here, as I see it.
Complaint 1 SHOULD read: Thanks to the S6 changes, I spent 2000 c-points to buy a console and a ship costume? WTF? There's not a single console (or, for that matter, combination of consoles) in the game that's worth 2000 c-points, and it's insulting to the players to try to pass this off as a "good deal".
I don't think any REASONABLE person would complain about the C-Store ships being less shiny than the fleet ships, if not for the fact that thanks to the new fleet ships, when you buy a top-end C-Store ship, you're effectively paying Tier 5 ship prices for a console (that MIGHT be worth a few hundred c-points, maybe a thousand if it's a really GOOD console) and a costume for one of your standard-issue ships.
--
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
After over 20 years of online RP, from various TinyMU* in the late 80s to STO and other MMOs now, I have yet to find a player-run organization that did not contain drama, politics, and their attendant evils as an inherent part of the organization.
--
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
As others have said, it would be easier to swallow if they just flat-out removed C-store versions of the ships altogether (fat chance). Lord knows we've had this issue with non-RA/VA ships already for a long time.
$25 is a lot of money and when you're essentially now just buying a console (or in my case with the Excel-R, diddly-squat) it's not unreasonable to feel cheated.
Frankly if Cryptic went back to a monthly sub none of this would even be an issue (although as I understand it, they still had the C-store up even to their paying monthly customers). As it stands, we have the real endgame ships (a five-Tac Defiant, are you high?) locked behind both a pay-to-win barrier and an immense, drama-filled grind. I don't mean to rag on Cryptic but it's hard to see how this could've been handled any worse.
Hm. Is one additional console really that bad? I mean, yeah, you will have a slight edge with them. But I fail to see how 5 vs 4 tac consoles opens up sort of a new tier or anything.
Edit: I mean, the Oddy wasn't the end of Tier 5 either.
It's not the existence of an additional console that's the problem. It's the fact that the new ships effect the game in such a way that the $20 you spent on your shiny new escort boils down to spending $20 for a console and an additional option for modding your ship's appearance in the shipyard.
Would anyone spend $20 to buy a console and a ship costume if they realize that's all they're getting for their money?
--
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
Hm. Is one additional console really that bad? I mean, yeah, you will have a slight edge with them. But I fail to see how 5 vs 4 tac consoles opens up sort of a new tier or anything.
Edit: I mean, the Oddy wasn't the end of Tier 5 either.
Escorts are a completely different class of ship to cruisers. It might as well be a whole different game (there's a reason the Jem'Hadar ship is so popular). The comparison also fails because the only Odyssey to take an extra Tac console was the Tac variant, and it didn't set any new standards for cruisers (both the Excel-R and the Sovereign have had three in Tac for a long time).
Part of the reason Tac consoles are so powerful is that you'll never place anything other than the appropriate console for your weapon loadout into them, whereas Sci and Eng layouts have wildly varying setups. They also have no diminishing returns. A five-Tactical Defiant is going to be a complete nightmare to fight.
EDIT: I'd also like to second what yinepuhotepgames above just said.
Well, you're definitely missing something here, as I see it.
Complaint 1 SHOULD read: Thanks to the S6 changes, I spent 2000 c-points to buy a console and a ship costume? WTF? There's not a single console (or, for that matter, combination of consoles) in the game that's worth 2000 c-points, and it's insulting to the players to try to pass this off as a "good deal".
I don't think any REASONABLE person would complain about the C-Store ships being less shiny than the fleet ships, if not for the fact that thanks to the new fleet ships, when you buy a top-end C-Store ship, you're effectively paying Tier 5 ship prices for a console (that MIGHT be worth a few hundred c-points, maybe a thousand if it's a really GOOD console) and a costume for one of your standard-issue ships.
Do you read what other people write, seriously? Stop yelling about something you can't even see. Al Rivera said there were c-store version of fleet ships. Which means better ships than the standard fleet ones. So, stop being a child/troll, learn patience, and see what happens in two weeks or so.
Part of the reason Tac consoles are so powerful is that you'll never place anything other than the appropriate console for your weapon loadout into them, whereas Sci and Eng layouts have wildly varying setups. They also have no diminishing returns. A five-Tactical Defiant is going to be a complete nightmare to fight.
Take what he said, reverse it and you've got the truth.
Linear stacking always diminishes returns:
For simplicity's sake, we'll pretend only Tac consoles stack with their own multiplier (using Purple XIIs):
First Console: +30% -> 1.3 mult -> 30% actual increase.
Second Console: +30% -> 1.6 mult -> ~23.1% actual increase.
Third Console: +30% -> 1.9 -> 18.75% actual increase.
4th: +30% -> 2.2 -> ~15.79% a.i.
5th: +30% -> 2.5 -> ~13.64% a.i.
Actual returns are lower on all because things like some Skills also add to the same mod, to my knowledge.
That's why Tac Consoles don't return their actual listed value, that's what people mistakingly call "adding to base damage not overall damage".
Do you read what other people write, seriously? Stop yelling about something you can't even see. Al Rivera said there were c-store version of fleet ships. Which means better ships than the standard fleet ones. So, stop being a child/troll, learn patience, and see what happens in two weeks or so.
I could ask you the same thing. You CLEARLY either missed or chose to ignore the part where I said that no REASONABLE person could complain about c-store ships being less shiny than the new ships.
But, hey, if you want to continue accusing people of being childish and/or trolling, far be it from ME to point out that you're merely accusing others of what you, yourself, are doing.
--
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
Frankly, this decision just amazes me. They charge $25 for an end-game ship and then make a whole other tier? At what point did this seem like a good idea?
Frankly, this decision just amazes me. They charge $25 for an end-game ship and then make a whole other tier? At what point did this seem like a good idea?
:mad:
It's hardly unheard of. It's no different from endgame gear being made obsolete due to the level cap going up.
Hm. Still, 5 tac consoles seem to be stronger than 5 neutronium armor consoles, though slightly weaker against 5 armor consoles for the right damage type. But that's not a problem with these ships, but with the game in general, right?
Assuming you consider it a problem, yes, I'd have to agree with you that it's the nature of the game, not the ships in particular. I'm not seeing that it's a problem, but I'm not one of those people who thinks that any ship that can't one-shot a tactical cube is underpowered.
--
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
Frankly, this decision just amazes me. They charge $25 for an end-game ship and then make a whole other tier? At what point did this seem like a good idea?
:mad:
I'd still like to see a linked post from a developer that states unequivitably that the T5 C-Store ships were "end-game". I have never seen one, since it would limit development of future ships and expansion in general.
If noone can produce the post, then the ships are not end-game, they are simply the highest ship tier you can get today.
I'd still like to see a linked post from a developer that states unequivitably that the T5 C-Store ships were "end-game". I have never seen one, since it would limit development of future ships and expansion in general.
If noone can produce the post, then the ships are not end-game, they are simply the highest ship tier you can get today.
You want PROOF?!?!?!? How dare you expect rational and legitimate arguments on the forums!!!!!!
I'd still like to see a linked post from a developer that states unequivitably that the T5 C-Store ships were "end-game". I have never seen one, since it would limit development of future ships and expansion in general.
If noone can produce the post, then the ships are not end-game, they are simply the highest ship tier you can get today.
The appropriate C-store page list the Odyssey as "The pinnacle of Federation starship design" and the Bortasqu as "the most powerful battle cruisers in the KDF arsenal." We know from gameplay of course these descriptions are situational, but that is what they were sold as.
The appropriate C-store page list the Odyssey as "The pinnacle of Federation starship design" and the Bortasqu as "the most powerful battle cruisers in the KDF arsenal." We know from gameplay of course these descriptions are situational, but that is what they were sold as.
Well, at one time the Excelsior was the pinnacle of Federation Starship design as well...then the Galaxy Class...then the Sovereign Class...etc...etc...etc...
The appropriate C-store page list the Odyssey as "The pinnacle of Federation starship design" and the Bortasqu as "the most powerful battle cruisers in the KDF arsenal." We know from gameplay of course these descriptions are situational, but that is what they were sold as.
Uh huh.... so the shipyards should just shut down, because we have reached the highest possible technology. A quick google search on the "pinnacle of automotive engineering" will show a site that states In 1956 the Mercedes 300SL was it (or the Fomula 1 cars, there are plenty of pages) .... ummm yeah, pretty sure they kept designing and improving on cars since then, and those who bought them in 1956, didn't get free new cars, each time a new model year came out.
So a better tagline would have been.... "The pinnacle of Federation starship design, until we design something else", or "the most powerful battle cruisers in the KDF arsenal, today".
The appropriate C-store page list the Odyssey as "The pinnacle of Federation starship design" and the Bortasqu as "the most powerful battle cruisers in the KDF arsenal." We know from gameplay of course these descriptions are situational, but that is what they were sold as.
Because if they were listed as "A 10 console cruiser with marginally better capabilities than most but cost more than any other cruiser offered" few would have bought it.
Kinda like how the quad cannons were advertised as "the most powerful cannons in the game" when it turned out that any decent Mk XI cannon was more powerful.
Lord Krueg
KBF CO We are the Dead
join date Aug 2008
Hey you asked for an example, I gave you an example. You can validly say you disagree, but you can't say examples don't exist.
And yes tech changes, but how much how quickly? A 300SL is absolutely beautiful and state of the art when it was released. However that was the 1950s. I should hope the tech has advanced significantly in 6 decades. This game, on the other hand, has been 2409 for over 2 years now. How much can starship technology change in that time? Even if we were going real-time, how much can things change in 2 years? How's a 2013 Mercedes compare to the 2011 model? I mean if we're gonna go constant power creep, why not just go all in and go for one of those idiotic forum-posted super ships with 12 weapon slots and 16 boff slots while we're at it?
How much can power creep TRIBBLE up a game if its implemented? Why flush time or money on the latest when you know it won't stay that way, and your new shiny won't last? (Which it mostly did for over 2 years, giving the impression that the game was going to stay relatively constant) I don't know about others, but when I read about the new ships last saturday, that was the nail in the coffin on 3 c-store ship sales for me.
Well, to be honest they COULD introduce newer ships without invalidating older ones or being out of balance...it would just require something that seems to be in short supply recently, intelligence and forethought. :rolleyes:
Well, to be honest they COULD introduce newer ships without invalidating older ones or being out of balance...it would just require something that seems to be in short supply recently, intelligence and forethought. :rolleyes:
Sounds awesome to me. Keep the new layouts and skins but with the same hulls and shields and consoles as other T5 stuff. Makes them just 'different' instead of flat-out superior.
I'd still like to see a linked post from a developer that states unequivitably that the T5 C-Store ships were "end-game". I have never seen one, since it would limit development of future ships and expansion in general.
If noone can produce the post, then the ships are not end-game, they are simply the highest ship tier you can get today.
They've been treated by everyone as end game for years. But I'm not really interested in a semantics argument. This move seems like a bad move on several levels.
1. Ships were and are generally the most expensive thing in the C-Store, which in a FTP model is kinda important. If Cryptic obsoletes the three C-Store ships purchases I've made en masse, it's going to create a lot of mistrust. Given how fast you level in this game, $25 for something that isn't end game is a waste and I cannot see how this move helps Cryptic or the players.
2. It's a very heavy handed way to promote joining a fleet. If I wanted a game where I had to join a fleet or remain forever a B class citizen, I'd renew my EvE account.
3. Given what we've seen of the fleet mechanics, it's going to introduce a lot of politics into fleets regarding whether the fleet is big enough to get the projects done in a reasonable time period, and who gets the ships as they come off the assembly line. Again, if I wanted this I'd renew my EvE account.
So in short it seems like they are undercutting once of their revenue streams while trying to force players to play a certain way which has historically not been part of a casual MMO. And why? What benefit does this bring?
When you buy a car and ride in it for about a year, do you demand a free upgrade to that car when next year's model comes out? No, you don't.
Unless you bought your ship a month ago, you've gotten ample use out of it. Nothing lasts forever.
I can buy used cars and accept that I'm getting something not as awesome, but save money. (There a used ship lot I don't know about?) And with cars I can research and find out whats coming months or years in advance and decide how much those changes are worth waiting on. And while new models may have different features, it usually takes a while for a new model to be outright better, and cheaper, than their predecessor. And lastly, this is a video game, and one where the calendar doesn't move, and where stuff doesn't wear out on its own.
Comments
Oh no no no. They can't do that. It would make too much sense.
Cryptic: If you think the bugs are bad, wait until you see our fixes!
1. From what I know, the c-store versions of the fleet ships will still have inferior stats to the fleet ships themselves. This is not exactly a ringing endorsement for the fleet ships.
2. The consoles are not exactly a ringing endorsement for some of these ships, either. Considering how much "room" the Odyssey triple-console setup takes, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps it's almost a disadvantage to carry these things. I imagine if I pick up the c-store AC refit, unless it's spectacular it's going to have the console rotting in my bank, most likely.
Between this, and getting hives from PVP, you've pegged my problem, too.
Co-op roleplay does NOT mean that being part of a group is mandatory, it means CHOOSING whether to be a part of a group, whether the group is permanent or temporary, and whether you want to just grind by yourself, without all the drama and bull**** that goes with being in a Fleet.
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
Well, you're definitely missing something here, as I see it.
Complaint 1 SHOULD read: Thanks to the S6 changes, I spent 2000 c-points to buy a console and a ship costume? WTF? There's not a single console (or, for that matter, combination of consoles) in the game that's worth 2000 c-points, and it's insulting to the players to try to pass this off as a "good deal".
I don't think any REASONABLE person would complain about the C-Store ships being less shiny than the fleet ships, if not for the fact that thanks to the new fleet ships, when you buy a top-end C-Store ship, you're effectively paying Tier 5 ship prices for a console (that MIGHT be worth a few hundred c-points, maybe a thousand if it's a really GOOD console) and a costume for one of your standard-issue ships.
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
After over 20 years of online RP, from various TinyMU* in the late 80s to STO and other MMOs now, I have yet to find a player-run organization that did not contain drama, politics, and their attendant evils as an inherent part of the organization.
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
$25 is a lot of money and when you're essentially now just buying a console (or in my case with the Excel-R, diddly-squat) it's not unreasonable to feel cheated.
Frankly if Cryptic went back to a monthly sub none of this would even be an issue (although as I understand it, they still had the C-store up even to their paying monthly customers). As it stands, we have the real endgame ships (a five-Tac Defiant, are you high?) locked behind both a pay-to-win barrier and an immense, drama-filled grind. I don't mean to rag on Cryptic but it's hard to see how this could've been handled any worse.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
It's not the existence of an additional console that's the problem. It's the fact that the new ships effect the game in such a way that the $20 you spent on your shiny new escort boils down to spending $20 for a console and an additional option for modding your ship's appearance in the shipyard.
Would anyone spend $20 to buy a console and a ship costume if they realize that's all they're getting for their money?
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
Escorts are a completely different class of ship to cruisers. It might as well be a whole different game (there's a reason the Jem'Hadar ship is so popular). The comparison also fails because the only Odyssey to take an extra Tac console was the Tac variant, and it didn't set any new standards for cruisers (both the Excel-R and the Sovereign have had three in Tac for a long time).
Part of the reason Tac consoles are so powerful is that you'll never place anything other than the appropriate console for your weapon loadout into them, whereas Sci and Eng layouts have wildly varying setups. They also have no diminishing returns. A five-Tactical Defiant is going to be a complete nightmare to fight.
EDIT: I'd also like to second what yinepuhotepgames above just said.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Do you read what other people write, seriously? Stop yelling about something you can't even see. Al Rivera said there were c-store version of fleet ships. Which means better ships than the standard fleet ones. So, stop being a child/troll, learn patience, and see what happens in two weeks or so.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Take what he said, reverse it and you've got the truth.
Linear stacking always diminishes returns:
For simplicity's sake, we'll pretend only Tac consoles stack with their own multiplier (using Purple XIIs):
First Console: +30% -> 1.3 mult -> 30% actual increase.
Second Console: +30% -> 1.6 mult -> ~23.1% actual increase.
Third Console: +30% -> 1.9 -> 18.75% actual increase.
4th: +30% -> 2.2 -> ~15.79% a.i.
5th: +30% -> 2.5 -> ~13.64% a.i.
Actual returns are lower on all because things like some Skills also add to the same mod, to my knowledge.
That's why Tac Consoles don't return their actual listed value, that's what people mistakingly call "adding to base damage not overall damage".
I could ask you the same thing. You CLEARLY either missed or chose to ignore the part where I said that no REASONABLE person could complain about c-store ships being less shiny than the new ships.
But, hey, if you want to continue accusing people of being childish and/or trolling, far be it from ME to point out that you're merely accusing others of what you, yourself, are doing.
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
:mad:
It's hardly unheard of. It's no different from endgame gear being made obsolete due to the level cap going up.
Assuming you consider it a problem, yes, I'd have to agree with you that it's the nature of the game, not the ships in particular. I'm not seeing that it's a problem, but I'm not one of those people who thinks that any ship that can't one-shot a tactical cube is underpowered.
Coffee, chocolate, bacon, and phasers. What more do I need?
I'd still like to see a linked post from a developer that states unequivitably that the T5 C-Store ships were "end-game". I have never seen one, since it would limit development of future ships and expansion in general.
If noone can produce the post, then the ships are not end-game, they are simply the highest ship tier you can get today.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
You want PROOF?!?!?!? How dare you expect rational and legitimate arguments on the forums!!!!!!
Seriously though...this.:D
The appropriate C-store page list the Odyssey as "The pinnacle of Federation starship design" and the Bortasqu as "the most powerful battle cruisers in the KDF arsenal." We know from gameplay of course these descriptions are situational, but that is what they were sold as.
I know... silly me... :rolleyes:
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Well, at one time the Excelsior was the pinnacle of Federation Starship design as well...then the Galaxy Class...then the Sovereign Class...etc...etc...etc...
Quite true, but that was 100 year ago, not 4 months. Plus that wasn't part of his question. No moving the goalposts now.
That isn't the business model?!?!?!?!?!?! :eek:
Uh huh.... so the shipyards should just shut down, because we have reached the highest possible technology. A quick google search on the "pinnacle of automotive engineering" will show a site that states In 1956 the Mercedes 300SL was it (or the Fomula 1 cars, there are plenty of pages) .... ummm yeah, pretty sure they kept designing and improving on cars since then, and those who bought them in 1956, didn't get free new cars, each time a new model year came out.
So a better tagline would have been.... "The pinnacle of Federation starship design, until we design something else", or "the most powerful battle cruisers in the KDF arsenal, today".
Seriously, this is the argument... come on now.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Because if they were listed as "A 10 console cruiser with marginally better capabilities than most but cost more than any other cruiser offered" few would have bought it.
Kinda like how the quad cannons were advertised as "the most powerful cannons in the game" when it turned out that any decent Mk XI cannon was more powerful.
KBF CO
We are the Dead
join date Aug 2008
And yes tech changes, but how much how quickly? A 300SL is absolutely beautiful and state of the art when it was released. However that was the 1950s. I should hope the tech has advanced significantly in 6 decades. This game, on the other hand, has been 2409 for over 2 years now. How much can starship technology change in that time? Even if we were going real-time, how much can things change in 2 years? How's a 2013 Mercedes compare to the 2011 model? I mean if we're gonna go constant power creep, why not just go all in and go for one of those idiotic forum-posted super ships with 12 weapon slots and 16 boff slots while we're at it?
How much can power creep TRIBBLE up a game if its implemented? Why flush time or money on the latest when you know it won't stay that way, and your new shiny won't last? (Which it mostly did for over 2 years, giving the impression that the game was going to stay relatively constant) I don't know about others, but when I read about the new ships last saturday, that was the nail in the coffin on 3 c-store ship sales for me.
Sounds awesome to me. Keep the new layouts and skins but with the same hulls and shields and consoles as other T5 stuff. Makes them just 'different' instead of flat-out superior.
Unless you bought your ship a month ago, you've gotten ample use out of it. Nothing lasts forever.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
They've been treated by everyone as end game for years. But I'm not really interested in a semantics argument. This move seems like a bad move on several levels.
1. Ships were and are generally the most expensive thing in the C-Store, which in a FTP model is kinda important. If Cryptic obsoletes the three C-Store ships purchases I've made en masse, it's going to create a lot of mistrust. Given how fast you level in this game, $25 for something that isn't end game is a waste and I cannot see how this move helps Cryptic or the players.
2. It's a very heavy handed way to promote joining a fleet. If I wanted a game where I had to join a fleet or remain forever a B class citizen, I'd renew my EvE account.
3. Given what we've seen of the fleet mechanics, it's going to introduce a lot of politics into fleets regarding whether the fleet is big enough to get the projects done in a reasonable time period, and who gets the ships as they come off the assembly line. Again, if I wanted this I'd renew my EvE account.
So in short it seems like they are undercutting once of their revenue streams while trying to force players to play a certain way which has historically not been part of a casual MMO. And why? What benefit does this bring?
I can buy used cars and accept that I'm getting something not as awesome, but save money. (There a used ship lot I don't know about?) And with cars I can research and find out whats coming months or years in advance and decide how much those changes are worth waiting on. And while new models may have different features, it usually takes a while for a new model to be outright better, and cheaper, than their predecessor. And lastly, this is a video game, and one where the calendar doesn't move, and where stuff doesn't wear out on its own.