The only time mines were seen in Trek was in DS9 (fixed location), in Voyager I think they pitched torps out their aft launcher without firing them (basically deploying makeshift mines), and Enterprise ran into Romulan mines once. That's it.
...
For what it's worth.
I don't agree.
Why instant activation? In that scenario the ship dropping them would be equally effected, or does the ship just withstand the detonation. (If a ship is on it's tail)
There should be a counter? Why? You mean a 24th century vessel's sensors could not detect mines?
I don't agree with "Double the damage, minimum". In terms of the Chro. Trico. Plasma stacking/ effects this is not really a good idea. Every cruiser would then just run multiple copies of mines launchers. Why run a beam that can do TRIBBLE dps when you can run a mine that can do xxxxx dps.
Please correct me, I am just guessing here - but the effect I think you are going for is that the mine should completely bring down the facing shield and cause serious damage to the hull? I mean thats what a mine does right?
Now in terms of game balance:
You think having a single slotted weapon have the same dps as a Full Alpha Stike by 4x DHC?
Why instant activation? In that scenario the ship dropping them would be equally effected, or does the ship just withstand the detonation. (If a ship is on it's tail)
There should be a counter? Why? You mean a 24th century vessel's sensors could not detect mines?
I don't agree with "Double the damage, minimum". In terms of the Chro. Trico. Plasma stacking/ effects this is not really a good idea. Every cruiser would then just run multiple copies of mines launchers. Why run a beam that can do TRIBBLE dps when you can run a mine that can do xxxxx dps.
Please correct me, I am just guessing here - but the effect I think you are going for is that the mine should completely bring down the facing shield and cause serious damage to the hull? I mean thats what a mine does right?
Now in terms of game balance:
You think having a single slotted weapon have the same dps as a Full Alpha Stike by 4x DHC?
Does that seem like balance to you?
No weapon should become the 6th player on a 5-man team, ever!
1. No it wouldn't. No (or virtually no) friendly fire. It's a game, not a war simulation. You want realism? Join the navy.
2. You mean a 24th century vessel's sensors could not detect cloaked ships? It's measure/countermeasure. It's how things work in this game.
3. So don't agree. That's fine. And I'm talking initial blast damage, not proc. But you knew that already.
The effect I'd go for if I were designing mines for STO is for them to actually be useful outside of their historical static capacity. Hence, instant activation, very difficult to spot and damaging enough to actually have to worry about. I have no idea where this "sixth player" thing is coming from. Consider yourself corrected.
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Why instant activation? In that scenario the ship dropping them would be equally effected, or does the ship just withstand the detonation. (If a ship is on it's tail)
Like there are any friendly fire issues in STO? What about tricobalts, plasma clouds or any other AE effect in game? I think you are looking for a different game here.
[*]There should be a counter? Why? You mean a 24th century vessel's sensors could not detect mines?
Because a small object using passive sensors is really easy to detect in space? Wait, it isn't. Next?
[*]I don't agree with "Double the damage, minimum". In terms of the Chro. Trico. Plasma stacking/ effects this is not really a good idea. Every cruiser would then just run multiple copies of mines launchers. Why run a beam that can do TRIBBLE dps when you can run a mine that can do xxxxx dps.
We have gone from mines being of questionable, limited use to you suggesting the always hit and implying that if the damage is upped they would magically become some sort of super weapon? Upping the base damage is not going to have any affect on the other effects you mention.
Please correct me, I am just guessing here - but the effect I think you are going for is that the mine should completely bring down the facing shield and cause serious damage to the hull? I mean thats what a mine does right?
Classic straw man. You are 'guessing' that those in favor of change are only in favor of completely imbalanced change, which of course would be completely imbalanced and thus easy for you to object to.
'What a mine does' in science fiction is what the writer says it does. In RL a mine hit doesn't always cause 'major damage' let alone in a fictional environment where there are regenerative shields.
Now in terms of game balance:
You think having a single slotted weapon have the same dps as a Full Alpha Stike by 4x DHC?
Does that seem like balance to you?
Again, that depends on a lot of things, including how often they hit, how the damage interacts with shields, what BOff abilities affect them and how much, etc.
As for one of your other points, that the Devs shouldn't be even thinking about mines until everything else in the game is perfect:
1) There is a reason why modern computing is based on parallel processing. Everyone working on exactly the same thing is problematic and likely a waste of manpower.
2) Everything else in the game is never going to be perfect. Besides the nigh impossibility of achieving perfection even if you can agree on a definition, agreeing on a definition of perfection is itself nigh impossible. Especially in an MMO.
Take a breath, and consider this issue independently and objectively. Fair game to say that double might be too high, but come back with a better number. Fair game to say mines should not be too hard to detect, but come back with a better counter than 'nothing in space is invisible.'
As stated earlier, if you want people to use more mines...
1. Have any skill / ability / console that affects one type of torpedo, affect the same type of mine.
2. Increase damage of the mines (right now there is absolutely no incentive to even avoid them).
3. Keep everything else about them the same as they are now.
Any player who runs into mines isn't paying attention. They are extremely easy to detect, avoid, and / or destroy. They already arm fairly quickly, and I have no problem dropping them in front of (on top of, or slightly behind) enemy ships and having them activate and hit that ship.
If someone really wants to load up on mine launchers, so what? Just stay in any firing arc other than their rear arc, or stay farther than 4 km and let them deal with the fact that you have twice the weapons that they do.
D&D DM/Player since 1982 - all versions except the despised 4e
As stated earlier, if you want people to use more mines...
1. Have any skill / ability / console that affects one type of torpedo, affect the same type of mine.
2. Increase damage of the mines (right now there is absolutely no incentive to even avoid them).
3. Keep everything else about them the same as they are now.
Any player who runs into mines isn't paying attention. They are extremely easy to detect, avoid, and / or destroy. They already arm fairly quickly, and I have no problem dropping them in front of (on top of, or slightly behind) enemy ships and having them activate and hit that ship.
If someone really wants to load up on mine launchers, so what? Just stay in any firing arc other than their rear arc, or stay farther than 4 km and let them deal with the fact that you have twice the weapons that they do.
1. Keep in mind NPCs (including pets) will have the potential for this as well. Do you really want pets spamming spam?
2. Mine damage isn't the main probablem, it's applying it. It's the same basic issue w/torps and why so many just go w/full set of DHCs or 3DHCs and DBB in front. It's worse then torps in they're destructable where some torps aren't.
3. Mines have a built in MES and if you want to clear spam clutter from UI you won't see them. Or you're left w/having UI filled w/spam neither a good solution, but don't assume it's easy to see the mines espcially when using ships where you have to zoom in to apply DPS via DHCs.
I'd get rid of mines altogether, and replace them w/their torp counterparts. Replace the Boff abilities w/Torp Boff abilities.
EG:
Add a low damage scatter torp spread which high AoE explosions boff ability (spam clear/low chance based decloak Friend and Foe).
Add an extended range torp boff ability similar to how bio neural has an extended range.
Add a boff ability to increase torp speed.
Please just dump mines though.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
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C&H Fed banter
I am of the opinion that mine usage was shot in the foot when the Mine damage bonus was split from their coinciding damage-type console. This boggles me. NO ONE will replace a tac console with a mine damage console. What was the reasoning behind this harebrained scheme again? Please I really want to understand...
I don't play PVP, and it's a serious mistake to try and balance the same systems for both PVE and PVP when the type and strength of enemies faced in these two game modes are radically different from eachother. The ability that seems overpowered and unfair to another player is desirable, even necessary for survival, when fighting AI opponents who have extreme advantages and abilities not available to players.
That said.
I don't use mines because they don't do enough damage. Every single time I have tried to work a mine layer into my gameplay, the results are suboptimal. The basic problem is that mines are short ranged, can be shot down, are nearly impossible to aim, and their cooldowns are painfully long. To be worth my time, a mine layer needs to do more damage than a torpedo, to compensate for its limitations. If a torpedo launcher does X damage per second, a mine layer needs to do X+Y damage per second. Currently that is not the case. Even in a hypothetical best case scenario against an immobile defenseless unshielded target, mines do not deliver as much damage as the turret you could have mounted instead. And the turret has a longer range, can't be shot down, and you can bring it to the enemy's weak points. The proposed changes seem like an improvement, but I still don't think a mine layer will be worth more than the turret.
In the current state of space combat, Mine Launcher weapons are generally seen as undesirable. Yes, many of them serve specific purposes for which they can be especially effective. But on a whole, if faced with a decision between equipping a Torpedo Launcher and an associated Bridge Officer skill, or the same for mines, the choice is nearly always Torpedoes.
This is seen as a design imbalance. We want players to feel as though everything they can do in the game, and every piece of equipment they can obtain, has a purpose and utility that is on-par with other choices from those same categories.
In an effort to address this inconsistency, we are currently in the process of considering some rather major changes to the way in which Mine Launchers function. This effort includes shifts in two separate core mechanics:
1) Eliminating "Dispersal Pattern" bridge officer abilities, and rolling their functionality into existing Torpedo abilities.
2) Improving the utility of each separate type of mine, in various ways.
Eliminating Dispersal Patterns
As mentioned above, this comes down to an inconsistency of choice. The situational use of Mines when in comparison to Torpedo utility causes the vast majority of players to choose, almost unilaterally, to invest in Torpedo bridge officer abilities over Mine-based ones. Which is actually perfectly understandable - you simply get far more bang for your buck from a Torpedo High Yield, than you do from a Dispersal Patten Alpha, due to the larger number of situations in which Torpedoes can potentially outperform Mines.
This situation is exacerbated by the fact that Mine abilities are unlocked one rank higher than Torpedo abilities (Dispersal I is Lieutenant, while Torpedo I is Ensign).
Under this new proposal, the following changes would be seen by players:
1) Dispersal Pattern Alpha (also known as Mine Trail) would be replaced with Torpedo: High Yield on all existing Bridge Officers, and reduced in rank accordingly.
2) Dispersal Pattern Beta (also known as Mine Spread) would be replaced with Torpedo: Spread on all existing Bridge Officers, and reduced in rank accordingly.
3) Torpedo: High Yield abilities would gain the functionality of Dispersal Pattern Alpha in addition to their existing functionality.
4) Torpedo: Spread abilities would gain the functionality of Dispersal Pattern Beta in addition to their existing functionality.
5) Both Torpedo: High Yield and Torpedo: Spread would be renamed to fit their new dual-functionality.
Once this change was made, players that have both a Torpedo and a Mine equipped and activate a Torpedo bridge officer ability would see both of these weapons display their upgraded firing mode. Activating either the Torpedo or the Mine at this point would consume the firing mode, just as happens currently when multiple Torpedoes are equipped.
(Note: Recall that Mines were recently removed from the "Fire All Projectiles" functionality, so accidentally using your Torpedo Spread on a Mine launcher is not likely to occur unless you've altered your keybinds.)
We believe that this change would allow players to again consider Mine Launchers as a more viable equipment alternative for a wider number of tactical scenarios, since it eliminates some of the cost (in the form of lost utility) that comes from making that choice.
Improving Mine Explosion Effects
The following is our first draft proposal of upgrading the effects of the six core damage types associated with Mine Launchers. These will require further testing and iteration before finalizing their effects, and I'm looking forward to hearing feedback about how each may effect gameplay.
If no mention of damage changes are made, assume that the current damage will remain constant in the new versions of these effects.
In addition to these changes, we're also considering a small increase to the amount of Threat generated by these targets, so that Mines can be used as a valid diversion tactic when facing AI enemies. It's possible that this Threat can be made to scale with the owner's Threat Control skill level, which would add an element of damage mitigation to players invested in this skill (enemies would be shooting something other than you).
- Travel Faster once in Chase mode
- Wider Explosion Radius (and explode farther from target)
PLASMA
- Guaranteed plasma DOT (stacks when hit with multiples)
- Small chance to leave behind a Plasma cloud (functions like Warp Plasma)
TRANSPHASIC
- 80% shield bleedthru (starting damage will likely be reduced some)
CHRONITON
- 80% chance to proc movement speed debuff
- Magnitude of debuff reduced from existing version, but stacks when hit with multiple mines
TRICOBALT
- High chance of causing a Spatial Rift which disables ability use within its radius (same as is currently caused by High Yield Tricobalt explosions)
- Each mine in a field has an individual chance of causing this rift, so there's a chance of multiple spawning near a single location.
All of the aforementioned changes have not yet been finalized internally, and there is therefore no timeline available on when (if ever) these changes will eventually make their way to Tribble and/or Holodeck.
One response we've already anticipated is that increasing the viability of Mine Launchers will in turn increase the already existing concerns over excessive entity spam on space maps. This is something we're already taking into consideration. One possible solution that has been considered is reducing the number of mines launched from a single use, while tuning the effects of that mine's utility accordingly. We're not certain at this point that such action will be the correct course to take, nor even whether or not any action will be necessary. These changes may not, in fact, manage to increase the popularity of Mine weapons, which would eliminate the call for additional concern.
All of these proposed changes are largely conceptual at this point, and therefore very subject to change. This also means that it's a perfect time to make your thoughts heard on the subject!
Thanks for your hard work improving the game. This is a good idea and i really like the way STO is getting better and better.
Easy fix for torp mine powers, replace existing torp and mine powers with the following:
1) High Yield Projectiles: increases damage for ALL projectiles fired by x%. This skills works on ALL mines and torps used during 10-15 sec buff period (like rcf and csv).
2) Projectile Rapid Fire: this skill cuts the reload time for ALL mines and torps by x% for 10-15 sec.
Simple solution that improves mine damage and doesn't break any builds that use mines and torps together. Use skill 1 for heavy damage and skill 2 for increase proc hits and moderate damage.
With the new balance changes implemented, stuck some mine launchers on my ship just to see.
Still terrible.
1.) 15 second reload time on something that does as much damage as a torpedo if you can persuade the enemy to fly into it and if you hit hull instead of shields, is just sad.
2.) Something I never noticed before, mine layers have a gratuitously long shared cooldown. You can be a cannon boat, a beam boat, even a torpedo boat, but mines? Even if you wanted to, it's impossible. There's barely any point to having 2, and no point at all in having 3.
3.) And finally, I tried plasma mines because I figured with the shield-penetrating sticky DOT they might stack up with cumulative hits and start to matter... But the "burn" effect" doesn't even stick to the enemy. They take 1 or 2 ticks of plasma damage and then it goes away.
Comments
I don't agree.
Please correct me, I am just guessing here - but the effect I think you are going for is that the mine should completely bring down the facing shield and cause serious damage to the hull? I mean thats what a mine does right?
Now in terms of game balance:
You think having a single slotted weapon have the same dps as a Full Alpha Stike by 4x DHC?
Does that seem like balance to you?
Just my take on it.
1. No it wouldn't. No (or virtually no) friendly fire. It's a game, not a war simulation. You want realism? Join the navy.
2. You mean a 24th century vessel's sensors could not detect cloaked ships? It's measure/countermeasure. It's how things work in this game.
3. So don't agree. That's fine. And I'm talking initial blast damage, not proc. But you knew that already.
The effect I'd go for if I were designing mines for STO is for them to actually be useful outside of their historical static capacity. Hence, instant activation, very difficult to spot and damaging enough to actually have to worry about. I have no idea where this "sixth player" thing is coming from. Consider yourself corrected.
Like there are any friendly fire issues in STO? What about tricobalts, plasma clouds or any other AE effect in game? I think you are looking for a different game here.
Because a small object using passive sensors is really easy to detect in space? Wait, it isn't. Next?
We have gone from mines being of questionable, limited use to you suggesting the always hit and implying that if the damage is upped they would magically become some sort of super weapon? Upping the base damage is not going to have any affect on the other effects you mention.
Classic straw man. You are 'guessing' that those in favor of change are only in favor of completely imbalanced change, which of course would be completely imbalanced and thus easy for you to object to.
'What a mine does' in science fiction is what the writer says it does. In RL a mine hit doesn't always cause 'major damage' let alone in a fictional environment where there are regenerative shields.
Again, that depends on a lot of things, including how often they hit, how the damage interacts with shields, what BOff abilities affect them and how much, etc.
As for one of your other points, that the Devs shouldn't be even thinking about mines until everything else in the game is perfect:
1) There is a reason why modern computing is based on parallel processing. Everyone working on exactly the same thing is problematic and likely a waste of manpower.
2) Everything else in the game is never going to be perfect. Besides the nigh impossibility of achieving perfection even if you can agree on a definition, agreeing on a definition of perfection is itself nigh impossible. Especially in an MMO.
Take a breath, and consider this issue independently and objectively. Fair game to say that double might be too high, but come back with a better number. Fair game to say mines should not be too hard to detect, but come back with a better counter than 'nothing in space is invisible.'
1. Have any skill / ability / console that affects one type of torpedo, affect the same type of mine.
2. Increase damage of the mines (right now there is absolutely no incentive to even avoid them).
3. Keep everything else about them the same as they are now.
Any player who runs into mines isn't paying attention. They are extremely easy to detect, avoid, and / or destroy. They already arm fairly quickly, and I have no problem dropping them in front of (on top of, or slightly behind) enemy ships and having them activate and hit that ship.
If someone really wants to load up on mine launchers, so what? Just stay in any firing arc other than their rear arc, or stay farther than 4 km and let them deal with the fact that you have twice the weapons that they do.
1. Keep in mind NPCs (including pets) will have the potential for this as well. Do you really want pets spamming spam?
2. Mine damage isn't the main probablem, it's applying it. It's the same basic issue w/torps and why so many just go w/full set of DHCs or 3DHCs and DBB in front. It's worse then torps in they're destructable where some torps aren't.
3. Mines have a built in MES and if you want to clear spam clutter from UI you won't see them. Or you're left w/having UI filled w/spam neither a good solution, but don't assume it's easy to see the mines espcially when using ships where you have to zoom in to apply DPS via DHCs.
I'd get rid of mines altogether, and replace them w/their torp counterparts. Replace the Boff abilities w/Torp Boff abilities.
EG:
Add a low damage scatter torp spread which high AoE explosions boff ability (spam clear/low chance based decloak Friend and Foe).
Add an extended range torp boff ability similar to how bio neural has an extended range.
Add a boff ability to increase torp speed.
Please just dump mines though.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
...or am I back-asswards?
My character Tsin'xing
That said.
I don't use mines because they don't do enough damage. Every single time I have tried to work a mine layer into my gameplay, the results are suboptimal. The basic problem is that mines are short ranged, can be shot down, are nearly impossible to aim, and their cooldowns are painfully long. To be worth my time, a mine layer needs to do more damage than a torpedo, to compensate for its limitations. If a torpedo launcher does X damage per second, a mine layer needs to do X+Y damage per second. Currently that is not the case. Even in a hypothetical best case scenario against an immobile defenseless unshielded target, mines do not deliver as much damage as the turret you could have mounted instead. And the turret has a longer range, can't be shot down, and you can bring it to the enemy's weak points. The proposed changes seem like an improvement, but I still don't think a mine layer will be worth more than the turret.
Thanks for your hard work improving the game. This is a good idea and i really like the way STO is getting better and better.
1) High Yield Projectiles: increases damage for ALL projectiles fired by x%. This skills works on ALL mines and torps used during 10-15 sec buff period (like rcf and csv).
2) Projectile Rapid Fire: this skill cuts the reload time for ALL mines and torps by x% for 10-15 sec.
Simple solution that improves mine damage and doesn't break any builds that use mines and torps together. Use skill 1 for heavy damage and skill 2 for increase proc hits and moderate damage.
Still terrible.
1.) 15 second reload time on something that does as much damage as a torpedo if you can persuade the enemy to fly into it and if you hit hull instead of shields, is just sad.
2.) Something I never noticed before, mine layers have a gratuitously long shared cooldown. You can be a cannon boat, a beam boat, even a torpedo boat, but mines? Even if you wanted to, it's impossible. There's barely any point to having 2, and no point at all in having 3.
3.) And finally, I tried plasma mines because I figured with the shield-penetrating sticky DOT they might stack up with cumulative hits and start to matter... But the "burn" effect" doesn't even stick to the enemy. They take 1 or 2 ticks of plasma damage and then it goes away.
I fear mines are still utterly pointless.