Thank you all for the great feedback we've gotten in this thread.
I wanted to drop in and give an update on our intentions for this revamp project.
After reading the various concerns over combining Mine and Torpedo Bridge Officer powers into a single functionality, as well as realizing that consolidating their disparate rankings would be a significant technical hurdle, we've decided to do away with that portion of the revamp entirely, and focus solely on improving mines on the basis of their individual functionality per energy type.
The changes mentioned in the initial post, related to each individual energy type of mine, are still our working concept of the changes that will be made to their behavior. No significant changes have been made to those designs, at this time.
In addition to those changes, we've decided to widen our scope a bit to take the general functionality of ALL mines into consideration while making these changes. What, exactly, that will result in, is yet to be seen. We don't have any solid design decisions that've been made just yet, on that subject.
And, just another reminder that these changes, whatever they are, are not likely to happen until at least a few weeks after Season 6 has landed.
great work borticus, now u can continue with the energy weapons procs
Thank you all for the great feedback we've gotten in this thread.
I wanted to drop in and give an update on our intentions for this revamp project.
After reading the various concerns over combining Mine and Torpedo Bridge Officer powers into a single functionality, as well as realizing that consolidating their disparate rankings would be a significant technical hurdle, we've decided to do away with that portion of the revamp entirely, and focus solely on improving mines on the basis of their individual functionality per energy type.
I'm a bit late to the discussion on this one, but couldn't you *add* BOFF abilities that work with both torpedoes and mines? Either new abilities that are basically the same as the original intention (so you can get some hard figures on which arrangement players prefer), or new abilities with new effects entirely?
Perhaps a power that increases torpedo speed and increases the seek radius of mines for x seconds?
Thank you all for the great feedback we've gotten in this thread.
I wanted to drop in and give an update on our intentions for this revamp project.
After reading the various concerns over combining Mine and Torpedo Bridge Officer powers into a single functionality, as well as realizing that consolidating their disparate rankings would be a significant technical hurdle, we've decided to do away with that portion of the revamp entirely, and focus solely on improving mines on the basis of their individual functionality per energy type.
The changes mentioned in the initial post, related to each individual energy type of mine, are still our working concept of the changes that will be made to their behavior. No significant changes have been made to those designs, at this time.
In addition to those changes, we've decided to widen our scope a bit to take the general functionality of ALL mines into consideration while making these changes. What, exactly, that will result in, is yet to be seen. We don't have any solid design decisions that've been made just yet, on that subject.
And, just another reminder that these changes, whatever they are, are not likely to happen until at least a few weeks after Season 6 has landed.
Something I was just thinking about I wanted to go ahead and throw into the pool here.
Would it be possible to increase the yield of the mines by a very large amount. say 5 or 10 times its current amount. Then give the launcher itself a cooldown of around 5 or 10 times. This would make the use of mines more strategic and would be something you would want to watch out for.
You might also give a mine the ability to reduce Kinetic resistance of a ship. Making it more lethal to both the ship and give it more utility to batter down shields.
thanks for looking into this Bort, i ll hold back the champagn glasses for the changes to chronitons actually making it to Holo in a working state, and then see what you come up with for mines.
I'm somewhat glad that the BO skills do not get merged, rethinking torp/mine types is long overdue. gl with fixing the game.
I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but I think a 'smarter' mine is a MUST if they are to be viable.
The main reason I have never considered mines a viable option, has nothing to do with damage, procs, or skills associated... It's the fact that they are slow and easily destroyed.
I have created several 'mine builds' over the last couple of years, to keep testing the viability of mines in real pvp combat, and to a lesser extent pve. The main problem EVERY time is how long they take to figure out where the enemy is, and then give chase. If I am in a cruiser and I am being chased by an escort, you would think that dropping some mines in his path would be an effective deterrent.
2 Problems arise:
Scatter volley decimates mines before they even get out of the tube...
and
By the time the mines launch, spread out, and activate, you and the escort are already beyond their range... so they just sit there blinking at you mockingly!
Lets improve how quickly they launch and activate. The reason I put a launcher on my aft, is because from the moment it leaves the tube, it's lethal. Mines take too long to set up.
So I have spend the few past days testing the mines, and what changed in previous seasons while i was gone.
I have used an escort for the job, because it can equip the highest dispersal patterns and it has the speed and agility to deliver their payload. I used dispersal pattern beta III, with transphasic mines and cluster torpedo so i can drop 28 transphasic mines on the target. Did test this in elite space STFs as well as Capture and Hold scenarios.
The Bug
You cannot train Dispersal Pattern Alpha anywhere. it was so since open beta, bug reported many times, still not fixed. Really shame on you Cryptic that you cannot fix such simple thing in 2,5 years.
The Sacrfice
In order to use mines "effectively" you have to sacrifice the following...
1-2 aft slots
Because most escorts have turrets back, one mk XII (borg) turret is roughly 625 DPS, so in case of two, just equiping the mines in 1250 DPS loss, and thats without CRF.
1 tactical slot
In case of highest dispersal patterns CMD slot. Not using that means you lose access to APB III for example, which is substantial bonus, and since you have to use one of the Lt.Cmd slots for APO, its likely you will just have APB I, which means losing -20% team hull debuff, which comes very handy when focusing fire in STF.
The Mechanics
Dispersal patterns are on 45 cooldown, some goes for breen torpedo. You can improve it once in a while with tactical initiative if you are tactical captain, and reduce it to 30s.
If you are using dispersal patterns you obviously do not want to have mines on autofire, to drop them in exact precise moment when you turn or fly by, which of course means another DPS loss for escort. So if we go by 45s dispersal pattern, that's min 28125 dmg done by turret that was replaced by the mine launcher. Pattern drops 16 mines, each does 1200 dmg, so 19200, with borg proc another 16000 so 35200......looks fine, eh ? Only in Theory and Excel spreadsheet.
The Problems
During some of the previous seasons, the dispersal beta pattern was changed so the net is wider then it used to be...aka useless. It's so wide now, that it's pretty impossible to drop the mines in "safe" distance, so they all attack the target. In most cases only 2/3 fly towards the targets. But that's not the greatest problem.
The most obvious problem is that most mines do not even reach the target. With so many explosions around and FAW most mines are obliterated. It is enough that you are hit by a torpedo when you launch mines and all are lost. In case of single target, when your mines are approaching the target, they are destroyed by friendly torpedo explosions, sometimes even by friendly mine explosion.
All in all, I managed to land mines half time, and out of this only half mines actually hit the target. And I consider myself experienced mine user as I have toyed with this since open beta.
And that's the problem with mines that never will be solved. They simply are not worth it. The tradeoff is too great and you need to much more micro your ship. When a player sees few of his dispersal nets wiped up before they are even activated he will never ever touch it again - trust me.
How to fix it ?
Well, you probably can't improve the mine launchers mechanics, except for damage. But you cannot make mines more survieable, because that would make them spammable in PvP. Raising dmg alone won't change anything.
The sweet point would be mines that are clearable with a counter, let's say FAW or Torpedo spread, but that they are not destroyed by random explosion. The part when you are hit by random torpedo in the moment you launch mines is the most painful example of this. You can increase their dmg, procs and whatever as much as you like, but it will not make them a popular weapon.
If you compare it to HYT, or torpedoes for that matter, it's a lot more practical and safe weapon. You point, you shoot, all torpedoes land. If you ever compare HYT to Disperal patterns, take in mind that you on average land around 1/3-1/2 mines of the net, in a lot of cases 0.
The obvious solution is to improve dispersal patterns, not the mines itself.
- fix the missing dispersal pattern aplha III finaly !
- Until the mines shot with dispersal patterns are activated (blinked), they cannot be destroyed - that at least gives the chance to a mad escort player to drop the net
- Dispersal pattern ranks should improve mine speed and activation delay
- Dispersal pattern beta should be more compact, the wide net would be nice, but with like 30 mines
- Higher ranks of dispersal pattern improve the stealth rating of dropped mines, making rank III mines "almost" invisible and not targeatable unless the enemy has very high sensor rating (a Nebula with tachyon grid for example would be a solid counter)
- Higher ranks of dispersal pattern mines should have higher defence, so its harder to clear them
- Create interesting mine launcher DOFFs, obviously the weapon is so underrated that Heretic didnt even think about it when he made DOFFs.
Other problems
The tactical console - variable geometry detonators is useless. Noone in their right mind will ever equip that to boost a single weapon, when they can boost with same bonus all their energy weapons. And even if someone would want to improve their mine dmg, they would most like switch to torpedoes of the same type.
So I propose to change the console to (at purple mk XII)
- improves mine dmg by 100% (yes double)
- improve the defence rating of mines
- improves mine stealth
- improves mine speed
Both the console change and dispersal pattern change will not affect the current gameplay when someone just equips the launcher, but would provide at least some options for someone who want's to use mines.
And something from last patch:
- Mines and targetable Torpedoes will now explode, deal damage and play their explosion FX more reliably.
I'm not sure if that's not contraproductive, but I have the feeling that my own mine explosions did blow up my other mines. There was lots of (1) dmg hits in my log, but it wasnt clear if the mine did dmg to itself or destroyed some other. Never seen this in previous season I played.
- Increased Transphasic Torpedo and Mine shield penetration from 20% to 40%.
Mines still have 20% in their tooltip.
That's all from me. Now if you excuse me, I will go replace the minelauncher with some reliable weapon and go retrain my officers.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Oh I forgot to add, that none of my mines did proc BORG radiation dmg.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but I think a 'smarter' mine is a MUST if they are to be viable.
The main reason I have never considered mines a viable option, has nothing to do with damage, procs, or skills associated... It's the fact that they are slow and easily destroyed.
I have created several 'mine builds' over the last couple of years, to keep testing the viability of mines in real pvp combat, and to a lesser extent pve. The main problem EVERY time is how long they take to figure out where the enemy is, and then give chase. If I am in a cruiser and I am being chased by an escort, you would think that dropping some mines in his path would be an effective deterrent.
2 Problems arise:
Scatter volley decimates mines before they even get out of the tube...
and
By the time the mines launch, spread out, and activate, you and the escort are already beyond their range... so they just sit there blinking at you mockingly!
Lets improve how quickly they launch and activate. The reason I put a launcher on my aft, is because from the moment it leaves the tube, it's lethal. Mines take too long to set up.
And thats my 2 cents.
Mines are NOT torpedos and shouldn't be used as such. I'm still stunned that a DEV thinks the lack of players using mines in game is a balance issue. They are completely different weapons and are used in different tactical situations. It's amazing that they want to take two working and independent systems and roll them together into 1 type of specialty. Apparently 'somebody' has NO clue how naval warfare works. Guess something else in game needs to be broken by the devs.
Mines are NOT torpedos and shouldn't be used as such. I'm still stunned that a DEV thinks the lack of players using mines in game is a balance issue. They are completely different weapons and are used in different tactical situations. It's amazing that they want to take two working and independent systems and roll them together into 1 type of specialty. Apparently 'somebody' has NO clue how naval warfare works. Guess something else in game needs to be broken by the devs.
You do realize that this is set in space, with MUCH higher tech than any conventional 'naval warfare?'
Besides, they are talking about rolling the training in together, not the weapons.
You do realize that this is set in space, with MUCH higher tech than any conventional 'naval warfare?'
Besides, they are talking about rolling the training in together, not the weapons.
The second part of the OP was about changing the way mine launchers function. True, this is space so I doubt contact mines would exist, but some current space mines chase ships around the map and I'd hate to see that fantasy expanded on. Ya wanna a ship chasing mine, fire a torpedo.
Sooo... essentially your saying that you are perfectly happy that mines will never be a viable option? You would rather see a useless set of weaponry in the game, in the name of 'realism' as opposed to finding a way that they might WORK?
Ways mines MIGHT become viable:
They deploy already cloaked
They deploy with 0 activation time
They deploy and give chase at further range (5km+)
They have an incredible 'dodge' rating and thus much harded to target/hit/destroy
They are nearly impossible to detect when cloaked
They do SO much extra damage with each mine that it offsets their abillity to be destroyed
They self-replicate cloaked every so often
Their splash damage cant affect friendly targets so they don't destroy themselves in clusters
They give chase at faster speeds
Instead of 'launching' them out of a mine layer... they 'teleport' in place, and then activate.
Or we could just rework the ENTIRE way in which mines work. Traditionally, mines don't move. You drop them out of sight and when ships/subs/personel touch them, they blow. So why not do away with 'chasing mines' and just let them sit in their position cloaked. When a ship touches them, they explode. When they explode, the radius in enough to hit any other mines deployed, thus causing a chain reaction that causes a large AoE. Enough that it becomes a significant source of damage. If you lay a dense/big enough mine field, then you/your allies can lead enemies INTO it, thus springing a nice trap for them. Also, you would have to set the mines to deliver their payload even when destroyed to allow for proper chainreaction strategies. They should be DAMNED difficult to detect, so that even a proper science ship can only spot them at 3km away. They also should not 'self-detonate', unless you lay more than the maximum allowed per player... it should be like carrier pets. They stick around permanently until destroyed/dismissed... never should they expire on their own.
This provides a significant amount of Pros:
The ability to prepare strategic traps for enemies
Large cluster/spike damage for mine builds
Invisible mines wont graphically slow down pvp, because only friendly players can see your mines
Having your mines stay still and rely on 'collision' means that enemies have a chance to avoid them if they are cautious.
Having them stay still, but cloak/activate the moment they are deployed, allows you to appropriately provide a 'net' for enemies chasing you.
Having them 'insta-activate' provides a source of damage similar to a torpdeo, but behaves completely different.
The same strategy you would use for "Eject warp plasma" would work for this kind of mine. You could 'carpet-bomb' the enemy as you fly by them.
Provides a fun but frightening 'OH S***!' moment to enemies who fly around carelessly, and a giant explosive cloud suddenly erupts around their ship.
Put these changes in place, but keep the skills the same would certainly make mine builds much more viable to more players.
The second part of the OP was about changing the way mine launchers function. True, this is space so I doubt contact mines would exist, but some current space mines chase ships around the map and I'd hate to see that fantasy expanded on. Ya wanna a ship chasing mine, fire a torpedo.
If one was to arm a torpedo without target acquisition and simply roll it out the back, or roll it out the back and arm it remotely, what would you call it?
The torpedo would be sitting there in space waiting for the first target to come by not sending out a friendly recognition signal. What would you call a torpedo deployed in such a fashion?
Other than you're seemingly being caught up in antiquated semantics, how would it not be a mine?
If one was to arm a torpedo without target acquisition and simply roll it out the back, or roll it out the back and arm it remotely, what would you call it?
The torpedo would be sitting there in space waiting for the first target to come by not sending out a friendly recognition signal. What would you call a torpedo deployed in such a fashion?
Other than you're seemingly being caught up in antiquated semantics, how would it not be a mine?
If your saying mines are simply torpedo's without activated engines then why do ships require a 'tube' to launch a torpedo when one can simply be kicked out of a convient airlock and remotely activated ? Hmmm ??? Why are torpedos limited to a firing arc and mines are not ?
antiquated semantics ? The definition of a mine is different than a torpedo, and used differently.
3
: an encased explosive that is placed in the ground or in water and set to explode when disturbed
...space being a medium not included in the definition for obvious reasons.
If you'd prefer to question why I used a Naval reference to my idea of how a traditoinal mine was used (and torpedo) I'm sure I can find hundreds of instances in Trek canon where writers used similiar comparisons between Starfleet and a earthbound Naval hardware.
Sooo... essentially your saying that you are perfectly happy that mines will never be a viable option? You would rather see a useless set of weaponry in the game, in the name of 'realism' as opposed to finding a way that they might WORK?
Ways mines MIGHT become viable:
They deploy already cloaked
They deploy with 0 activation time
They deploy and give chase at further range (5km+)
They have an incredible 'dodge' rating and thus much harded to target/hit/destroy
They are nearly impossible to detect when cloaked
They do SO much extra damage with each mine that it offsets their abillity to be destroyed
They self-replicate cloaked every so often
Their splash damage cant affect friendly targets so they don't destroy themselves in clusters
They give chase at faster speeds
Instead of 'launching' them out of a mine layer... they 'teleport' in place, and then activate.
Or we could just rework the ENTIRE way in which mines work. Traditionally, mines don't move. You drop them out of sight and when ships/subs/personel touch them, they blow. So why not do away with 'chasing mines' and just let them sit in their position cloaked. When a ship touches them, they explode. When they explode, the radius in enough to hit any other mines deployed, thus causing a chain reaction that causes a large AoE. Enough that it becomes a significant source of damage. If you lay a dense/big enough mine field, then you/your allies can lead enemies INTO it, thus springing a nice trap for them. Also, you would have to set the mines to deliver their payload even when destroyed to allow for proper chainreaction strategies. They should be DAMNED difficult to detect, so that even a proper science ship can only spot them at 3km away. They also should not 'self-detonate', unless you lay more than the maximum allowed per player... it should be like carrier pets. They stick around permanently until destroyed/dismissed... never should they expire on their own.
This provides a significant amount of Pros:
The ability to prepare strategic traps for enemies
Large cluster/spike damage for mine builds
Invisible mines wont graphically slow down pvp, because only friendly players can see your mines
Having your mines stay still and rely on 'collision' means that enemies have a chance to avoid them if they are cautious.
Having them stay still, but cloak/activate the moment they are deployed, allows you to appropriately provide a 'net' for enemies chasing you.
Having them 'insta-activate' provides a source of damage similar to a torpdeo, but behaves completely different.
The same strategy you would use for "Eject warp plasma" would work for this kind of mine. You could 'carpet-bomb' the enemy as you fly by them.
Provides a fun but frightening 'OH S***!' moment to enemies who fly around carelessly, and a giant explosive cloud suddenly erupts around their ship.
Put these changes in place, but keep the skills the same would certainly make mine builds much more viable to more players.
NO, I never said I was happy they aren't a viable option, they ARE an option used in the right circumstances which is where this arguement begins. Mines aren't particulary intelligent, they don't move very fast (or shouldn't), and are most definetly hard to see. A torpedo is the opposite- fast, intelligent and easy to spot coming at you. The only thing they share would be payload (with mines being larger). There's a couple things you list that I like, but many reasons I dislike the others.
They deploy already cloaked -NO, not until it's in it's deployed location
They deploy with 0 activation time - Never ! A slow ship could suffer splash damage if the mine detonates for any reason
They deploy and give chase at further range (5km+) possibly, but after the thrusters deplete their fuel the mine is DEAD
They have an incredible 'dodge' rating and thus much harded to target/hit/destroy -NO, Mines do NOT move fast enough to dodge beams
They are nearly impossible to detect when cloaked -YES, offset by deflector strength
They do SO much extra damage with each mine that it offsets their abillity to be destroyed YES- deployment pattern anyone ?
They self-replicate cloaked every so often -NO
Their splash damage cant affect friendly targets so they don't destroy themselves in clusters -refer to instant arming answer
They give chase at faster speeds -Sure thing, what speed and turn rate ? can they outturn a torpedo or starship ? (You're obviously joking)
They deploy already cloaked -NO, not until it's in it's deployed location
Is there a reason why not? Have any info or opinion as to why this would be a negative? Here's mine (pun lol):
Pro- Mines can't be swept away with a simple FAW/SV/torp explosion before it even has a chance to activate.
Pro- Allow for 'surprise' attacks... which is the whole POINT of a mine to begin with.
Pro- Reduces stress on graphics cards by preventing visual 'spam' for your enemies.
Con- Ummm... not really seeing one here.
They deploy with 0 activation time - Never ! A slow ship could suffer splash damage if the mine detonates for any reason
Just as a torpedo already does when your too close? What is it we call that... ummm... oh yeah, "Balance".
They deploy and give chase at further range (5km+) possibly, but after the thrusters deplete their fuel the mine is DEAD
Why overcomplicate an already underpowered weapon type by adding pointless scripts? I hate to be the one to break immersion for you buddy, but the StarTrek universe is chock-full of rediculous technologies and ludicrous science. It would be nice if it were real, but adding 'unnecissary realism' into StarTrek, kills the fantasy aspect completely. You ever see any of them go to the bathroom...? Exactly.
They have an incredible 'dodge' rating and thus much harded to target/hit/destroy -NO, Mines do NOT move fast enough to dodge beams
Your exactly right... but the dodge wasn't intended to reflect the speed/manuverabillity of the mine, so much as the difficulty in targeting such a comparitively small device... that's cloaked as well.
They are nearly impossible to detect when cloaked -YES, offset by deflector strength
An accord has been reached!
They do SO much extra damage with each mine that it offsets their abillity to be destroyed YES- deployment pattern anyone ?
Unfortunately deployment patterns don't really add that much damage. Take alpha, and the long cluster of mines you lay... when the enemy gets near it, the splash damage of your OWN mines, end up destroying the rest of them before they can deliver their payload. So MORE mines, doesn't equal better damage. It's a broken system.
They self-replicate cloaked every so often -NO
It's in canon though, so out of all the ideas, this one actually has more validity than any of the others... yet I digress. This would become OP rather quickly. LOL
Their splash damage cant affect friendly targets so they don't destroy themselves in clusters -refer to instant arming answer
The instant arming answer... really doesn't apply to this answer. Do you just mean 'no' or what?
They give chase at faster speeds -Sure thing, what speed and turn rate ? can they outturn a torpedo or starship ? (You're obviously joking)
You assume an awful lot when coming up with arguments. B'sides, ALL of this is moot because...
Did you like... totally miss the entire second part of the post? Just curious, because the point I was making was entirely about mines needing to be revamped. The points in my post you chose to make comments about, were ways mines MIGHT be viable... but certainly not the meat and potatoes of the concept behind the post.
Am not trying to be difficult but I still maintain mines in their present form are a viable weapon if used correctly, and the incorrect application would be as a 'backup' for a torpedo.
I noticed you added in a comment about unnecessary realism:
Why overcomplicate an already underpowered weapon type by adding pointless scripts? I hate to be the one to break immersion for you buddy, but the StarTrek universe is chock-full of rediculous technologies and ludicrous science. It would be nice if it were real, but adding 'unnecissary realism' into StarTrek, kills the fantasy aspect completely. You ever see any of them go to the bathroom...? Exactly.
Wouldn't you rather have a cloaked Har'pheng instead of indestructable, cloaked, self replicating torpedo that has no firing arc and can outrun/outturn anything on the map ?
..er, I guess not.
BTW, I've NEVER recieved damage from my own torpedo, guess I'm just lucky that way. A shame the splash damage from my enemy exploding next to me has killed me, something you think a mine should be immune from.
As for an immediate cloaking mine there really isn't a reason it can't cloak as soon as it's launched but I doubt the launcher would play nice with a cloaked object sitting in it. Oops, there's that realism thingy again.
NO, I didn't miss the rest of your post- It needed no input from me as it's the way mines should be used, at least the way I've always used them on the many sub sims TI've played thru the years. (realism)
Am not trying to be difficult but I still maintain mines in their present form are a viable weapon if used correctly, and the incorrect application would be as a 'backup' for a torpedo.
I noticed you added in a comment about unnecessary realism:
Wouldn't you rather have a cloaked Har'pheng instead of indestructable, cloaked, self replicating torpedo that has no firing arc and can outrun/outturn anything on the map ?
..er, I guess not.
BTW, I've NEVER recieved damage from my own torpedo, guess I'm just lucky that way. A shame the splash damage from my enemy exploding next to me has killed me, something you think a mine should be immune from.
As for an immediate cloaking mine there really isn't a reason it can't cloak as soon as it's launched but I doubt the launcher would play nice with a cloaked object sitting in it. Oops, there's that realism thingy again.
NO, I didn't miss the rest of your post- It needed no input from me as it's the way mines should be used, at least the way I've always used them on the many sub sims TI've played thru the years. (realism)
ROFLMAO
So you AGREE with my overall post... but chose to NITPICK at the part that didn't matter?!?
Seriously?!?
:rolleyes:
People... I swear. LOL I just don't understand 'em.
So you AGREE with my overall post... but chose to NITPICK at the part that didn't matter?!?
Seriously?!?
:rolleyes:
People... I swear. LOL I just don't understand 'em.
Your post was self contradicting- the second and third paragraphs I agree with, but the 'lead-off' points is what I had issue with.
If your saying mines are simply torpedo's without activated engines then why do ships require a 'tube' to launch a torpedo when one can simply be kicked out of a convient airlock and remotely activated ? Hmmm ??? Why are torpedos limited to a firing arc and mines are not ?
antiquated semantics ? The definition of a mine is different than a torpedo, and used differently.
...space being a medium not included in the definition for obvious reasons.
If you'd prefer to question why I used a Naval reference to my idea of how a traditoinal mine was used (and torpedo) I'm sure I can find hundreds of instances in Trek canon where writers used similiar comparisons between Starfleet and a earthbound Naval hardware.
What I am saying is that a torpedo can be used as a mine, given the right changes to the triggering and target acquisition systems. We know for a fact that the seeking torpedoes such as heavy plasma torpedoes will redirect to a new target of opportunity if their prior target is destroyed before they can impact.
Just because a torpedo isn't specifically designed to be used as a mine does not mean it can't be used that way.
As for why torpedoes use tubes and are not remotely activated, use a little common sense. The warhead still has to get to the target somehow. If you use it as a mine, you are hoping the enemy will get close enough that the weapon will be able to accelerate on its own fast enough to impact or at least get in close enough proximity. If you are using it as a torpedo, you are boosting its acceleration via a launch tube, and trying to get the warhead to the enemy rather than the other way around. This also explains the firing arc, since the torpedo is at higher velocity. If you fire it the wrong way, it could end up out of range (or at least out of effective range) of its designated target. The mine has no target designated in advance and thus does not have that issue.
All that is a lot harder with a RL torpedo, since those are in water and in a gravity field. They have a much greater inertia to overcome due to the resistance of the water. And please indicate exactly where you are finding these 'hundreds of references' to starfleet mine technology. References to any given starship as 'a fine ship' don't count.
Honestly, he has an opinion, and anything that deviates fom his primary position is rediculous to him. Or he just likes to be contrary... LOL Who knows.
Honestly, he has an opinion, and anything that deviates fom his primary position is rediculous to him. Or he just likes to be contrary... LOL Who knows.
REALLY ? Thats the best you can do ?
S'Cuse me for wanting a little piece of this game to based in tradition and some shard of reality but I guess B&B has broken Trek that badly. You go on believing that any ludicrous technology is acceptable as long as they slap a federation label on it.
LOL@mines replicating themselves- a dedicated shipboard replicator cant replicate a phaser but a mine can replicate itself. Hmmm, I wonder why shuttles aren't roaming around spawning battleships.
What I am saying is that a torpedo can be used as a mine, given the right changes to the triggering and target acquisition systems. We know for a fact that the seeking torpedoes such as heavy plasma torpedoes will redirect to a new target of opportunity if their prior target is destroyed before they can impact.
Just because a torpedo isn't specifically designed to be used as a mine does not mean it can't be used that way.
As for why torpedoes use tubes and are not remotely activated, use a little common sense. The warhead still has to get to the target somehow. If you use it as a mine, you are hoping the enemy will get close enough that the weapon will be able to accelerate on its own fast enough to impact or at least get in close enough proximity. If you are using it as a torpedo, you are boosting its acceleration via a launch tube, and trying to get the warhead to the enemy rather than the other way around. This also explains the firing arc, since the torpedo is at higher velocity. If you fire it the wrong way, it could end up out of range (or at least out of effective range) of its designated target. The mine has no target designated in advance and thus does not have that issue.
All that is a lot harder with a RL torpedo, since those are in water and in a gravity field. They have a much greater inertia to overcome due to the resistance of the water. And please indicate exactly where you are finding these 'hundreds of references' to starfleet mine technology. References to any given starship as 'a fine ship' don't count.
See post 143, I disagree with your assumption that mines and torpedos are interchangable and I admit that I cannot change your views on the fantasy uses of a fantasy weapon in a fantasy universe.
All that is a lot harder with a RL torpedo, since those are in water and in a gravity field. They have a much greater inertia to overcome due to the resistance of the water.
See post 143, I disagree with your assumption that mines and torpedos are interchangable and I admit that I cannot change your views on the fantasy uses of a fantasy weapon in a fantasy universe.
Self replicating mines do seem a bit 'out there' even to me, but they are canon. They are the explanation as to why they were able to blockade the wormhole against the Dominion so long despite having lost DS9.
Furthermore, you are responding to someone else's views, since 'self replicating' is not a feature needed for my explanation as to how a torpedo could be used as a mine.
It really sounds like you are not objecting to my views specifically, but objecting to the tech of Trek. If your objections are with the IP, you are probably in the wrong game.
Self replicating mines do seem a bit 'out there' even to me, but they are canon. They are the explanation as to why they were able to blockade the wormhole against the Dominion so long despite having lost DS9.
Furthermore, you are responding to someone else's views, since 'self replicating' is not a feature needed for my explanation as to how a torpedo could be used as a mine.
It really sounds like you are not objecting to my views specifically, but objecting to the tech of Trek. If your objections are with the IP, you are probably in the wrong game.
Maybe a bit of both, BUT to your post #141- you COULD fire a bullet with a nail and hammer instead of a gun, but why would you ? Thats the similarity I see in your views of mines and torpedo's. Why launch either one at all when you could simply transport them to your targets bridge ?
Maybe a bit of both, BUT to your post #141- you COULD fire a bullet with a nail and hammer instead of a gun, but why would you ? Thats the similarity I see in your views of mines and torpedo's. Why launch either one at all when you could simply transport them to your targets bridge ?
A bullet is neither self propelled nor does it rely on a warhead for damage.
As for why you can't simply transport explosives on to a ship's bridge, you can. They just don't. Again, if your objection is with the IP, you are in the wrong game. Even in TOS that issue was there. If they could beam tribbles into the Klingon engine room specifically, they could have done the same with explosives.
A bullet is neither self propelled nor does it rely on a warhead for damage.
As for why you can't simply transport explosives on to a ship's bridge, you can. They just don't. Again, if your objection is with the IP, you are in the wrong game. Even in TOS that issue was there. If they could beam tribbles into the Klingon engine room specifically, they could have done the same with explosives.
Hollow point, kinetic damage+shrapnel
The genesis device was transported a couple times. Guess it's not an IP problem but a game problem
The genesis device was transported a couple times. Guess it's not an IP problem but a game problem
ROFL, hollow point.... come back when you know what you are talking about. Hollow point only works because it is kinetic.
The genesis device was only in Wrath of Khan and was not intended as a weapon. It was never being beamed onto a ship in an armed state, and besides... I never said they CAN'T. I said they DON'T. The genesis device wasn't armed by Kirk. It was armed by Khan in an attempt to take Kirk down with him.
After that movie, canon was that the Genesis project was classified and buried as a mistake. Besides, if you are arguing the genesis device, why are you complaining about beaming explosives? Arm all ships with genesis torpedoes and simply wipe out any enemy or even whole systems.
Comments
great work borticus, now u can continue with the energy weapons procs
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
I'm a bit late to the discussion on this one, but couldn't you *add* BOFF abilities that work with both torpedoes and mines? Either new abilities that are basically the same as the original intention (so you can get some hard figures on which arrangement players prefer), or new abilities with new effects entirely?
Perhaps a power that increases torpedo speed and increases the seek radius of mines for x seconds?
Make em awesome J-man.
Master using it and you can have this!
Be black on the right side. Add properly colored Cheron to the game today!
Would it be possible to increase the yield of the mines by a very large amount. say 5 or 10 times its current amount. Then give the launcher itself a cooldown of around 5 or 10 times. This would make the use of mines more strategic and would be something you would want to watch out for.
You might also give a mine the ability to reduce Kinetic resistance of a ship. Making it more lethal to both the ship and give it more utility to batter down shields.
Master using it and you can have this!
Be black on the right side. Add properly colored Cheron to the game today!
I'm somewhat glad that the BO skills do not get merged, rethinking torp/mine types is long overdue. gl with fixing the game.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I'd rather see more varity in builds, then always the same.
Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
The main reason I have never considered mines a viable option, has nothing to do with damage, procs, or skills associated... It's the fact that they are slow and easily destroyed.
I have created several 'mine builds' over the last couple of years, to keep testing the viability of mines in real pvp combat, and to a lesser extent pve. The main problem EVERY time is how long they take to figure out where the enemy is, and then give chase. If I am in a cruiser and I am being chased by an escort, you would think that dropping some mines in his path would be an effective deterrent.
2 Problems arise:
Scatter volley decimates mines before they even get out of the tube...
and
By the time the mines launch, spread out, and activate, you and the escort are already beyond their range... so they just sit there blinking at you mockingly!
Lets improve how quickly they launch and activate. The reason I put a launcher on my aft, is because from the moment it leaves the tube, it's lethal. Mines take too long to set up.
And thats my 2 cents.
So I have spend the few past days testing the mines, and what changed in previous seasons while i was gone.
I have used an escort for the job, because it can equip the highest dispersal patterns and it has the speed and agility to deliver their payload. I used dispersal pattern beta III, with transphasic mines and cluster torpedo so i can drop 28 transphasic mines on the target. Did test this in elite space STFs as well as Capture and Hold scenarios.
The Bug
You cannot train Dispersal Pattern Alpha anywhere. it was so since open beta, bug reported many times, still not fixed. Really shame on you Cryptic that you cannot fix such simple thing in 2,5 years.
The Sacrfice
In order to use mines "effectively" you have to sacrifice the following...
1-2 aft slots
Because most escorts have turrets back, one mk XII (borg) turret is roughly 625 DPS, so in case of two, just equiping the mines in 1250 DPS loss, and thats without CRF.
1 tactical slot
In case of highest dispersal patterns CMD slot. Not using that means you lose access to APB III for example, which is substantial bonus, and since you have to use one of the Lt.Cmd slots for APO, its likely you will just have APB I, which means losing -20% team hull debuff, which comes very handy when focusing fire in STF.
The Mechanics
Dispersal patterns are on 45 cooldown, some goes for breen torpedo. You can improve it once in a while with tactical initiative if you are tactical captain, and reduce it to 30s.
If you are using dispersal patterns you obviously do not want to have mines on autofire, to drop them in exact precise moment when you turn or fly by, which of course means another DPS loss for escort. So if we go by 45s dispersal pattern, that's min 28125 dmg done by turret that was replaced by the mine launcher. Pattern drops 16 mines, each does 1200 dmg, so 19200, with borg proc another 16000 so 35200......looks fine, eh ? Only in Theory and Excel spreadsheet.
The Problems
During some of the previous seasons, the dispersal beta pattern was changed so the net is wider then it used to be...aka useless. It's so wide now, that it's pretty impossible to drop the mines in "safe" distance, so they all attack the target. In most cases only 2/3 fly towards the targets. But that's not the greatest problem.
The most obvious problem is that most mines do not even reach the target. With so many explosions around and FAW most mines are obliterated. It is enough that you are hit by a torpedo when you launch mines and all are lost. In case of single target, when your mines are approaching the target, they are destroyed by friendly torpedo explosions, sometimes even by friendly mine explosion.
All in all, I managed to land mines half time, and out of this only half mines actually hit the target. And I consider myself experienced mine user as I have toyed with this since open beta.
And that's the problem with mines that never will be solved. They simply are not worth it. The tradeoff is too great and you need to much more micro your ship. When a player sees few of his dispersal nets wiped up before they are even activated he will never ever touch it again - trust me.
How to fix it ?
Well, you probably can't improve the mine launchers mechanics, except for damage. But you cannot make mines more survieable, because that would make them spammable in PvP. Raising dmg alone won't change anything.
The sweet point would be mines that are clearable with a counter, let's say FAW or Torpedo spread, but that they are not destroyed by random explosion. The part when you are hit by random torpedo in the moment you launch mines is the most painful example of this. You can increase their dmg, procs and whatever as much as you like, but it will not make them a popular weapon.
If you compare it to HYT, or torpedoes for that matter, it's a lot more practical and safe weapon. You point, you shoot, all torpedoes land. If you ever compare HYT to Disperal patterns, take in mind that you on average land around 1/3-1/2 mines of the net, in a lot of cases 0.
The obvious solution is to improve dispersal patterns, not the mines itself.
- fix the missing dispersal pattern aplha III finaly !
- Until the mines shot with dispersal patterns are activated (blinked), they cannot be destroyed - that at least gives the chance to a mad escort player to drop the net
- Dispersal pattern ranks should improve mine speed and activation delay
- Dispersal pattern beta should be more compact, the wide net would be nice, but with like 30 mines
- Higher ranks of dispersal pattern improve the stealth rating of dropped mines, making rank III mines "almost" invisible and not targeatable unless the enemy has very high sensor rating (a Nebula with tachyon grid for example would be a solid counter)
- Higher ranks of dispersal pattern mines should have higher defence, so its harder to clear them
- Create interesting mine launcher DOFFs, obviously the weapon is so underrated that Heretic didnt even think about it when he made DOFFs.
Other problems
The tactical console - variable geometry detonators is useless. Noone in their right mind will ever equip that to boost a single weapon, when they can boost with same bonus all their energy weapons. And even if someone would want to improve their mine dmg, they would most like switch to torpedoes of the same type.
So I propose to change the console to (at purple mk XII)
- improves mine dmg by 100% (yes double)
- improve the defence rating of mines
- improves mine stealth
- improves mine speed
Both the console change and dispersal pattern change will not affect the current gameplay when someone just equips the launcher, but would provide at least some options for someone who want's to use mines.
And something from last patch:
- Mines and targetable Torpedoes will now explode, deal damage and play their explosion FX more reliably.
I'm not sure if that's not contraproductive, but I have the feeling that my own mine explosions did blow up my other mines. There was lots of (1) dmg hits in my log, but it wasnt clear if the mine did dmg to itself or destroyed some other. Never seen this in previous season I played.
- Increased Transphasic Torpedo and Mine shield penetration from 20% to 40%.
Mines still have 20% in their tooltip.
That's all from me. Now if you excuse me, I will go replace the minelauncher with some reliable weapon and go retrain my officers.
Mines are NOT torpedos and shouldn't be used as such. I'm still stunned that a DEV thinks the lack of players using mines in game is a balance issue. They are completely different weapons and are used in different tactical situations. It's amazing that they want to take two working and independent systems and roll them together into 1 type of specialty. Apparently 'somebody' has NO clue how naval warfare works. Guess something else in game needs to be broken by the devs.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
You do realize that this is set in space, with MUCH higher tech than any conventional 'naval warfare?'
Besides, they are talking about rolling the training in together, not the weapons.
The second part of the OP was about changing the way mine launchers function. True, this is space so I doubt contact mines would exist, but some current space mines chase ships around the map and I'd hate to see that fantasy expanded on. Ya wanna a ship chasing mine, fire a torpedo.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Ways mines MIGHT become viable:
They deploy already cloaked
They deploy with 0 activation time
They deploy and give chase at further range (5km+)
They have an incredible 'dodge' rating and thus much harded to target/hit/destroy
They are nearly impossible to detect when cloaked
They do SO much extra damage with each mine that it offsets their abillity to be destroyed
They self-replicate cloaked every so often
Their splash damage cant affect friendly targets so they don't destroy themselves in clusters
They give chase at faster speeds
Instead of 'launching' them out of a mine layer... they 'teleport' in place, and then activate.
Or we could just rework the ENTIRE way in which mines work. Traditionally, mines don't move. You drop them out of sight and when ships/subs/personel touch them, they blow. So why not do away with 'chasing mines' and just let them sit in their position cloaked. When a ship touches them, they explode. When they explode, the radius in enough to hit any other mines deployed, thus causing a chain reaction that causes a large AoE. Enough that it becomes a significant source of damage. If you lay a dense/big enough mine field, then you/your allies can lead enemies INTO it, thus springing a nice trap for them. Also, you would have to set the mines to deliver their payload even when destroyed to allow for proper chainreaction strategies. They should be DAMNED difficult to detect, so that even a proper science ship can only spot them at 3km away. They also should not 'self-detonate', unless you lay more than the maximum allowed per player... it should be like carrier pets. They stick around permanently until destroyed/dismissed... never should they expire on their own.
This provides a significant amount of Pros:
The ability to prepare strategic traps for enemies
Large cluster/spike damage for mine builds
Invisible mines wont graphically slow down pvp, because only friendly players can see your mines
Having your mines stay still and rely on 'collision' means that enemies have a chance to avoid them if they are cautious.
Having them stay still, but cloak/activate the moment they are deployed, allows you to appropriately provide a 'net' for enemies chasing you.
Having them 'insta-activate' provides a source of damage similar to a torpdeo, but behaves completely different.
The same strategy you would use for "Eject warp plasma" would work for this kind of mine. You could 'carpet-bomb' the enemy as you fly by them.
Provides a fun but frightening 'OH S***!' moment to enemies who fly around carelessly, and a giant explosive cloud suddenly erupts around their ship.
Put these changes in place, but keep the skills the same would certainly make mine builds much more viable to more players.
If one was to arm a torpedo without target acquisition and simply roll it out the back, or roll it out the back and arm it remotely, what would you call it?
The torpedo would be sitting there in space waiting for the first target to come by not sending out a friendly recognition signal. What would you call a torpedo deployed in such a fashion?
Other than you're seemingly being caught up in antiquated semantics, how would it not be a mine?
If your saying mines are simply torpedo's without activated engines then why do ships require a 'tube' to launch a torpedo when one can simply be kicked out of a convient airlock and remotely activated ? Hmmm ??? Why are torpedos limited to a firing arc and mines are not ?
antiquated semantics ? The definition of a mine is different than a torpedo, and used differently. ...space being a medium not included in the definition for obvious reasons.
If you'd prefer to question why I used a Naval reference to my idea of how a traditoinal mine was used (and torpedo) I'm sure I can find hundreds of instances in Trek canon where writers used similiar comparisons between Starfleet and a earthbound Naval hardware.
NO, I never said I was happy they aren't a viable option, they ARE an option used in the right circumstances which is where this arguement begins. Mines aren't particulary intelligent, they don't move very fast (or shouldn't), and are most definetly hard to see. A torpedo is the opposite- fast, intelligent and easy to spot coming at you. The only thing they share would be payload (with mines being larger). There's a couple things you list that I like, but many reasons I dislike the others.
They deploy already cloaked -NO, not until it's in it's deployed location
They deploy with 0 activation time - Never ! A slow ship could suffer splash damage if the mine detonates for any reason
They deploy and give chase at further range (5km+) possibly, but after the thrusters deplete their fuel the mine is DEAD
They have an incredible 'dodge' rating and thus much harded to target/hit/destroy -NO, Mines do NOT move fast enough to dodge beams
They are nearly impossible to detect when cloaked -YES, offset by deflector strength
They do SO much extra damage with each mine that it offsets their abillity to be destroyed YES- deployment pattern anyone ?
They self-replicate cloaked every so often -NO
Their splash damage cant affect friendly targets so they don't destroy themselves in clusters -refer to instant arming answer
They give chase at faster speeds -Sure thing, what speed and turn rate ? can they outturn a torpedo or starship ? (You're obviously joking)
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Did you like... totally miss the entire second part of the post? Just curious, because the point I was making was entirely about mines needing to be revamped. The points in my post you chose to make comments about, were ways mines MIGHT be viable... but certainly not the meat and potatoes of the concept behind the post.
LOL
I noticed you added in a comment about unnecessary realism:
Wouldn't you rather have a cloaked Har'pheng instead of indestructable, cloaked, self replicating torpedo that has no firing arc and can outrun/outturn anything on the map ?
..er, I guess not.
BTW, I've NEVER recieved damage from my own torpedo, guess I'm just lucky that way. A shame the splash damage from my enemy exploding next to me has killed me, something you think a mine should be immune from.
As for an immediate cloaking mine there really isn't a reason it can't cloak as soon as it's launched but I doubt the launcher would play nice with a cloaked object sitting in it. Oops, there's that realism thingy again.
NO, I didn't miss the rest of your post- It needed no input from me as it's the way mines should be used, at least the way I've always used them on the many sub sims TI've played thru the years. (realism)
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
ROFLMAO
So you AGREE with my overall post... but chose to NITPICK at the part that didn't matter?!?
Seriously?!?
:rolleyes:
People... I swear. LOL I just don't understand 'em.
Your post was self contradicting- the second and third paragraphs I agree with, but the 'lead-off' points is what I had issue with.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
What I am saying is that a torpedo can be used as a mine, given the right changes to the triggering and target acquisition systems. We know for a fact that the seeking torpedoes such as heavy plasma torpedoes will redirect to a new target of opportunity if their prior target is destroyed before they can impact.
Just because a torpedo isn't specifically designed to be used as a mine does not mean it can't be used that way.
As for why torpedoes use tubes and are not remotely activated, use a little common sense. The warhead still has to get to the target somehow. If you use it as a mine, you are hoping the enemy will get close enough that the weapon will be able to accelerate on its own fast enough to impact or at least get in close enough proximity. If you are using it as a torpedo, you are boosting its acceleration via a launch tube, and trying to get the warhead to the enemy rather than the other way around. This also explains the firing arc, since the torpedo is at higher velocity. If you fire it the wrong way, it could end up out of range (or at least out of effective range) of its designated target. The mine has no target designated in advance and thus does not have that issue.
All that is a lot harder with a RL torpedo, since those are in water and in a gravity field. They have a much greater inertia to overcome due to the resistance of the water. And please indicate exactly where you are finding these 'hundreds of references' to starfleet mine technology. References to any given starship as 'a fine ship' don't count.
S'Cuse me for wanting a little piece of this game to based in tradition and some shard of reality but I guess B&B has broken Trek that badly. You go on believing that any ludicrous technology is acceptable as long as they slap a federation label on it.
LOL@mines replicating themselves- a dedicated shipboard replicator cant replicate a phaser but a mine can replicate itself. Hmmm, I wonder why shuttles aren't roaming around spawning battleships.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
See post 143, I disagree with your assumption that mines and torpedos are interchangable and I admit that I cannot change your views on the fantasy uses of a fantasy weapon in a fantasy universe.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
R.I.P
Self replicating mines do seem a bit 'out there' even to me, but they are canon. They are the explanation as to why they were able to blockade the wormhole against the Dominion so long despite having lost DS9.
Furthermore, you are responding to someone else's views, since 'self replicating' is not a feature needed for my explanation as to how a torpedo could be used as a mine.
It really sounds like you are not objecting to my views specifically, but objecting to the tech of Trek. If your objections are with the IP, you are probably in the wrong game.
Maybe a bit of both, BUT to your post #141- you COULD fire a bullet with a nail and hammer instead of a gun, but why would you ? Thats the similarity I see in your views of mines and torpedo's. Why launch either one at all when you could simply transport them to your targets bridge ?
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
A bullet is neither self propelled nor does it rely on a warhead for damage.
As for why you can't simply transport explosives on to a ship's bridge, you can. They just don't. Again, if your objection is with the IP, you are in the wrong game. Even in TOS that issue was there. If they could beam tribbles into the Klingon engine room specifically, they could have done the same with explosives.
Hollow point, kinetic damage+shrapnel
The genesis device was transported a couple times. Guess it's not an IP problem but a game problem
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
ROFL, hollow point.... come back when you know what you are talking about. Hollow point only works because it is kinetic.
The genesis device was only in Wrath of Khan and was not intended as a weapon. It was never being beamed onto a ship in an armed state, and besides... I never said they CAN'T. I said they DON'T. The genesis device wasn't armed by Kirk. It was armed by Khan in an attempt to take Kirk down with him.
After that movie, canon was that the Genesis project was classified and buried as a mistake. Besides, if you are arguing the genesis device, why are you complaining about beaming explosives? Arm all ships with genesis torpedoes and simply wipe out any enemy or even whole systems.