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Mine Launcher Revamp (WIP)
borticuscryptic
Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
In the current state of space combat, Mine Launcher weapons are generally seen as undesirable. Yes, many of them serve specific purposes for which they can be especially effective. But on a whole, if faced with a decision between equipping a Torpedo Launcher and an associated Bridge Officer skill, or the same for mines, the choice is nearly always Torpedoes.
This is seen as a design imbalance. We want players to feel as though everything they can do in the game, and every piece of equipment they can obtain, has a purpose and utility that is on-par with other choices from those same categories.
In an effort to address this inconsistency, we are currently in the process of considering some rather major changes to the way in which Mine Launchers function. This effort includes shifts in two separate core mechanics:
1) Eliminating "Dispersal Pattern" bridge officer abilities, and rolling their functionality into existing Torpedo abilities.
2) Improving the utility of each separate type of mine, in various ways.
Eliminating Dispersal Patterns
As mentioned above, this comes down to an inconsistency of choice. The situational use of Mines when in comparison to Torpedo utility causes the vast majority of players to choose, almost unilaterally, to invest in Torpedo bridge officer abilities over Mine-based ones. Which is actually perfectly understandable - you simply get far more bang for your buck from a Torpedo High Yield, than you do from a Dispersal Patten Alpha, due to the larger number of situations in which Torpedoes can potentially outperform Mines.
This situation is exacerbated by the fact that Mine abilities are unlocked one rank higher than Torpedo abilities (Dispersal I is Lieutenant, while Torpedo I is Ensign).
Under this new proposal, the following changes would be seen by players:
1) Dispersal Pattern Alpha (also known as Mine Trail) would be replaced with Torpedo: High Yield on all existing Bridge Officers, and reduced in rank accordingly.
2) Dispersal Pattern Beta (also known as Mine Spread) would be replaced with Torpedo: Spread on all existing Bridge Officers, and reduced in rank accordingly.
3) Torpedo: High Yield abilities would gain the functionality of Dispersal Pattern Alpha in addition to their existing functionality.
4) Torpedo: Spread abilities would gain the functionality of Dispersal Pattern Beta in addition to their existing functionality.
5) Both Torpedo: High Yield and Torpedo: Spread would be renamed to fit their new dual-functionality.
Once this change was made, players that have both a Torpedo and a Mine equipped and activate a Torpedo bridge officer ability would see both of these weapons display their upgraded firing mode. Activating either the Torpedo or the Mine at this point would consume the firing mode, just as happens currently when multiple Torpedoes are equipped.
(Note: Recall that Mines were recently removed from the "Fire All Projectiles" functionality, so accidentally using your Torpedo Spread on a Mine launcher is not likely to occur unless you've altered your keybinds.)
We believe that this change would allow players to again consider Mine Launchers as a more viable equipment alternative for a wider number of tactical scenarios, since it eliminates some of the cost (in the form of lost utility) that comes from making that choice.
Improving Mine Explosion Effects
The following is our first draft proposal of upgrading the effects of the six core damage types associated with Mine Launchers. These will require further testing and iteration before finalizing their effects, and I'm looking forward to hearing feedback about how each may effect gameplay.
If no mention of damage changes are made, assume that the current damage will remain constant in the new versions of these effects.
In addition to these changes, we're also considering a small increase to the amount of Threat generated by these targets, so that Mines can be used as a valid diversion tactic when facing AI enemies. It's possible that this Threat can be made to scale with the owner's Threat Control skill level, which would add an element of damage mitigation to players invested in this skill (enemies would be shooting something other than you).
PHOTON
- Wider Activation/Chase Radius
- Higher Defense / Sensor Masking
QUANTUM
- Travel Faster once in Chase mode
- Wider Explosion Radius (and explode farther from target)
PLASMA
- Guaranteed plasma DOT (stacks when hit with multiples)
- Small chance to leave behind a Plasma cloud (functions like Warp Plasma)
TRANSPHASIC
- 80% shield bleedthru (starting damage will likely be reduced some)
CHRONITON
- 80% chance to proc movement speed debuff
- Magnitude of debuff reduced from existing version, but stacks when hit with multiple mines
TRICOBALT
- High chance of causing a Spatial Rift which disables ability use within its radius (same as is currently caused by High Yield Tricobalt explosions)
- Each mine in a field has an individual chance of causing this rift, so there's a chance of multiple spawning near a single location.
All of the aforementioned changes have not yet been finalized internally, and there is therefore no timeline available on when (if ever) these changes will eventually make their way to Tribble and/or Holodeck.
One response we've already anticipated is that increasing the viability of Mine Launchers will in turn increase the already existing concerns over excessive entity spam on space maps. This is something we're already taking into consideration. One possible solution that has been considered is reducing the number of mines launched from a single use, while tuning the effects of that mine's utility accordingly. We're not certain at this point that such action will be the correct course to take, nor even whether or not any action will be necessary. These changes may not, in fact, manage to increase the popularity of Mine weapons, which would eliminate the call for additional concern.
All of these proposed changes are largely conceptual at this point, and therefore very subject to change. This also means that it's a perfect time to make your thoughts heard on the subject!
This is seen as a design imbalance. We want players to feel as though everything they can do in the game, and every piece of equipment they can obtain, has a purpose and utility that is on-par with other choices from those same categories.
In an effort to address this inconsistency, we are currently in the process of considering some rather major changes to the way in which Mine Launchers function. This effort includes shifts in two separate core mechanics:
1) Eliminating "Dispersal Pattern" bridge officer abilities, and rolling their functionality into existing Torpedo abilities.
2) Improving the utility of each separate type of mine, in various ways.
Eliminating Dispersal Patterns
As mentioned above, this comes down to an inconsistency of choice. The situational use of Mines when in comparison to Torpedo utility causes the vast majority of players to choose, almost unilaterally, to invest in Torpedo bridge officer abilities over Mine-based ones. Which is actually perfectly understandable - you simply get far more bang for your buck from a Torpedo High Yield, than you do from a Dispersal Patten Alpha, due to the larger number of situations in which Torpedoes can potentially outperform Mines.
This situation is exacerbated by the fact that Mine abilities are unlocked one rank higher than Torpedo abilities (Dispersal I is Lieutenant, while Torpedo I is Ensign).
Under this new proposal, the following changes would be seen by players:
1) Dispersal Pattern Alpha (also known as Mine Trail) would be replaced with Torpedo: High Yield on all existing Bridge Officers, and reduced in rank accordingly.
2) Dispersal Pattern Beta (also known as Mine Spread) would be replaced with Torpedo: Spread on all existing Bridge Officers, and reduced in rank accordingly.
3) Torpedo: High Yield abilities would gain the functionality of Dispersal Pattern Alpha in addition to their existing functionality.
4) Torpedo: Spread abilities would gain the functionality of Dispersal Pattern Beta in addition to their existing functionality.
5) Both Torpedo: High Yield and Torpedo: Spread would be renamed to fit their new dual-functionality.
Once this change was made, players that have both a Torpedo and a Mine equipped and activate a Torpedo bridge officer ability would see both of these weapons display their upgraded firing mode. Activating either the Torpedo or the Mine at this point would consume the firing mode, just as happens currently when multiple Torpedoes are equipped.
(Note: Recall that Mines were recently removed from the "Fire All Projectiles" functionality, so accidentally using your Torpedo Spread on a Mine launcher is not likely to occur unless you've altered your keybinds.)
We believe that this change would allow players to again consider Mine Launchers as a more viable equipment alternative for a wider number of tactical scenarios, since it eliminates some of the cost (in the form of lost utility) that comes from making that choice.
Improving Mine Explosion Effects
The following is our first draft proposal of upgrading the effects of the six core damage types associated with Mine Launchers. These will require further testing and iteration before finalizing their effects, and I'm looking forward to hearing feedback about how each may effect gameplay.
If no mention of damage changes are made, assume that the current damage will remain constant in the new versions of these effects.
In addition to these changes, we're also considering a small increase to the amount of Threat generated by these targets, so that Mines can be used as a valid diversion tactic when facing AI enemies. It's possible that this Threat can be made to scale with the owner's Threat Control skill level, which would add an element of damage mitigation to players invested in this skill (enemies would be shooting something other than you).
PHOTON
- Wider Activation/Chase Radius
- Higher Defense / Sensor Masking
QUANTUM
- Travel Faster once in Chase mode
- Wider Explosion Radius (and explode farther from target)
PLASMA
- Guaranteed plasma DOT (stacks when hit with multiples)
- Small chance to leave behind a Plasma cloud (functions like Warp Plasma)
TRANSPHASIC
- 80% shield bleedthru (starting damage will likely be reduced some)
CHRONITON
- 80% chance to proc movement speed debuff
- Magnitude of debuff reduced from existing version, but stacks when hit with multiple mines
TRICOBALT
- High chance of causing a Spatial Rift which disables ability use within its radius (same as is currently caused by High Yield Tricobalt explosions)
- Each mine in a field has an individual chance of causing this rift, so there's a chance of multiple spawning near a single location.
All of the aforementioned changes have not yet been finalized internally, and there is therefore no timeline available on when (if ever) these changes will eventually make their way to Tribble and/or Holodeck.
One response we've already anticipated is that increasing the viability of Mine Launchers will in turn increase the already existing concerns over excessive entity spam on space maps. This is something we're already taking into consideration. One possible solution that has been considered is reducing the number of mines launched from a single use, while tuning the effects of that mine's utility accordingly. We're not certain at this point that such action will be the correct course to take, nor even whether or not any action will be necessary. These changes may not, in fact, manage to increase the popularity of Mine weapons, which would eliminate the call for additional concern.
All of these proposed changes are largely conceptual at this point, and therefore very subject to change. This also means that it's a perfect time to make your thoughts heard on the subject!
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Post edited by borticuscryptic on
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I'm not exactly fond of the "more powerful but fewer" approach, however.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
In theory you may have thought this would have been so great... but in retrospect your proposed changes are going to ruin a TRIBBLE load of my boffs in the process turning where I have some torp spreads into HY's which is not cool.
Disables, slows and snares have their place in the game, but they are inherently unfun for the person affected. This needs to be balanced to avoid frustrating players. In other words: there is a difference between mechanically balanced as a power and being fun.
Another thing: any chance you could fix the FAW ignoring [Acc] modifers bug before you open the door for more things that need to be cleared via FAW?
Your dispersal patterns will be rolled into Torpedo abilities, giving you additional functionality for an ability you already use.
They will also be reduced in rank requirement (if we can figure out how to do it gracefully), allowing you to free up higher-rank boff slots for other uses.
Your mines themselves will lose nothing in terms of existing functionality, and only gain.
How do you lose? What, specifically, do you feel we've overlooked?
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
That said, I am very happy to see that mines are finally being looked at. I think I've only used them once, and that was when I started the game and had no idea how terrible they really are.
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Don't make the launchers spam more mines than they currently do! PvP is already unplayable in some situations, because the game lags out when we get too many objects on screen!
If anything, increase the damage substantially, reduce the number of mines dropped, and make them harder to target.
Honestly, that bit of this proposal is the top Question Mark in all of this. We don't yet have a solid technical solution. What is mentioned above is what we would like to happen: If you have Dispersal III in a Commander slot, it will become Torpedo III in a Lt Comm slot.
What happens to the existing Lt Comm power? That's something we haven't actually addressed yet internally. Ideally, no player will lose anything with this transition.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
TBH its not the updated effects its more of how your proposing to remove the dispersal patterns. Where as I have b'rel setups that use HY's and Disperal Patterns where as if you merge those skills it'll be frustrating having to fix something that isn't broken.
In retrospect it has to deal with how a player goes out and "Plays it smart" but they are not horrible its just people do not proactively seek out how to make them work properly. Myself in a brel with plasma mines I can handle probes in elite so that can tell you right now that they work fine...
Also the rolling you speak of will just destroy a lot of my boffs in the action of it which was something you might not have considered along with it crippling my brel setups.
Dec/2008
I would like to see nothing happen to the existing Lt. Comm. power but you get your BOFF XP back from the loss of the Commander skill. I would find it very aggravating if I had to go through all my tactical BOFFs and re-choose the Lt. Comm. skill I had, then re-level it.
I know for many of us at endgame we have plenty of BOFF points but we would need to think of those level toons.
Ah, I see. You're concerned that linking the two means you have to choose to launch EITHER an enhanced Mine -or- an enhanced Torpedo, while under the existing system you can launch both back-to-back. Is that what I'm understanding?
I'll definitely keep that in mind. As I said previously, we want to try and ensure that existing players only gain from this, not lose. That includes tactical options like you are describing.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
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Yeah its not the changes in effect its the ability where I can fire a TSP3/HY3 and Dispersal Pattern 3 at once where as proposed changes make it where it nullifies that and converts boffs into where I need to redo them all again just to adapt and weaken the setup.
The one difference I would explain in how the disperal alpha isn't really good though. It just creates a little diamond behind you and if you do 3 it makes 2 of them but isn't as good as Beta.
TBH though to make the mines cooler and more canon is the effects do not bother me that were proposed but some of them need to have specific fed or kdf touches to them like the self replicating ones from DS9 and something specific for Klingon that doesn't make a gaudy purple look like a hargh peng lol.
The other thing though is for people who do not know how to use mines that cd is very excessive on the mines usually because they have nothing powering the offense of the mines they wouldn't do much but for my brel setups my mines do more damage than most peoples torpedoes.
Edit: The thing I was still wondering about setups where if it were merged what would we do with out Commander Ranked skills when it comes to all projectile setups where there would be none at all to use?
As noted previously, the concern about not being able to use an enhanced torpedo and an enhanced mine back to back is valid.
I'm not sure what could be an effective solution - make it give you two buffs, one for mines, one for torpedoes, so you could use an enhanced torpedo and mine off the same activation? Would that be too powerful though? It doesn't seem like an ideal solution, but I'm not sure what would be a better one if it's keyed off a single ability.
Another minor one would be that by dropping the tier, you can actually fit less related powers - for example, I currently use a commander dispersal pattern, as well as 3 torpedo skills (1 spread, 2 high yields). With them being the same skills, I would potentially lose out on one use. On the other hand, freeing up my commander slot for something else makes me pretty happy, so this is something I'd be willing to 'lose out' on in the trade.
As for the increased effects, I'm happy with those. Some people brought up concerns about their power and potential unfun-ness in PVP but unlike Chroniton Torpedos, and certain BO abilities, it's a lot easier to deal with mines proactively, either by avoiding them, or shooting them first, that I doubt it will really be that much of an issue for skilled players.
Overall, I feel that this general direction for mines is a good one, and I'm looking forward to seeing these changes on the servers at some point.
I tried using Tricobalt Mines ages ago, so I apologize if the following is outdated and wrong:
Tricobalt mine launchers only launch a single mine. I mean, if you drop a mine then come back to the same location 60 seconds later to drop another, there's a chance of multiple spawning... but I doubt that would happen.
While we're talking Tricobalt, could you remove the shared cooldown that Tricobalt Mines have with Tricobalt Torpedoes? In addition to being annoying, it is internally inconsistent with other mine/torp interactions. With the long activation time on TricoMines, there is really no reason at all to use one over a TricoTorp.
Could you grant Torp skills with a lesser version of Dispersal skills but buff and keep the Dispersal skills?
For example-
Currently:
Dispersal Pattern Alpha upgrades attack to launch two clusters of mines
Revamp:
High Yield upgrades attack to launch two clusters of mines
Dispersal Pattern Alpha launches two clusters of mines and increases threat generation
Spread upgrades to launch a big net
Dispersal Beta launches a big net and increases mine damage
This would allow use of both as well as make Dispersal patterns more worthwhile for taking up a higher ranked BrO slot.
As to the changes to damage types, not really sure if they need altering at all the the above BoFF skill changes making them more desirable anyway?
Wouldn't it be better to replace the Pattern III version with a Cmdr level skill, instead of deleting a skill someone may have had trained by someone else?
My suggestion is this...
Give an okay to the combine but somehow offer a choice if a TS3 is removed to be able to train it back without having to go searching for a new boff that might be expensive as who knows what just to get it back. Also as well to not eliminate the function of a projectile at the commander tactical skill level and improve the functions of mines and torpedoes make a new skill called Projectile Fire at Will 1 that only exists at the commander level for balance purposes. This way you get an improved ability at commander for not only mines but you wouldn't lose the functionality of having a projectile skill at commander but you could also use the proposed change of being able to use those current torpedo skills for mines as well.
The only thing about changing them at lower skills is the fact of the global cool downs in place on torpedoes though. The only fix for that is say I make a setup like this TS2 HY2 TS3 HY3 that the global cooldown removed as it is but would still exist say if I used TS3 for a mine attack I wouldn't be able to go and use HY3 for a 2nd mine attack but would be able to use it for a torpedo attack without having to wait 15 seconds for a global cool down.
As far as the effects the only thing I've disagreed with when it comes to projectiles is the functionality vs canon. Since chronitons were from the 3 part episode the year from hell and they were temporal torpedoes I think they should act a lot like transphasics but maybe do a 20% chance 100% shield penetration and keep the 80% chance that they kill engines/get stuck in the hull
Never thought about using them like that in PvP. I like the sound of reducing the potency of cloak with mines. Thanks!!
I would ask that the changes not go ahead. I don't really want to lose the ability to have a torpedo boff ability and mine boff ability stacked as I go in to combat. Having to choose one over the other and then endure cooldown will kill mines, despite the upgrades you're making to them.
The proposed upgrades to mines will make them more formidable, yes, although I think a lot of people don't play them as they haven't invested the time to learn to use them properly.
I've noticed that you neglected to list any improvements to the concentrated tachyon mines. Was that deliberate or an oversight?
I don't know how technically feasible it is though without coming up with something new. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any powers that give you two buffs for one button press.
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At the least, it gives cruisers and sci ships the ability to use mine skills in their ensign slots.
May need to consider fixing the acc bonuses for weapons when using FAW to control the spam though...
This in one of my chief wishes.
I also agree with the thought of making mines more lethal in general but I am concerned with combining Torp/Mine BOFF powers if it takes away the option to "stack" Torpedo and Mine attacks back-to-back. (Perhaps it would be better to keep BOFF abilities separate but lower the rank-requirement for mine abilities.)
I wanted to pop back into the thread and mention another Mine improvement that's being made on Tribble, that will help address some of the "spam" concerns.
Mines, targetable torpedoes, and fighters now have their UI reticles turned OFF by default. This means that, unless you choose to manually re-activate them from your UI display, you will no longer see the reticles of these entities, regardless of whether they are Friend or Foe.
This adds additional utility to mines in particular, because they already have a passive "Mask Energy Signature" ability built into them making them very difficult to spot unless you are within about 2-3km of them (or have a very high Sensors skill, or Stealth Detection). When you combine these elements, you have mines that are largely undetectable until moments before they activate, that are now also missing the "tell" that comes from having their targeting reticle pop onto the screen.
If you'd like to witness this reticle change in action, check out the Tribble test server! It will be in our next build (which should be today, if everything goes well).
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I agree.
I really like this, and I think its a really good looking proposal so far.
I agree with obiwanjabroni that it would be good if you could look into the functionality of tricobalt mines and their shared cooldowns with Trico Torps, as well as the lack of functionality with what will become the new Torpedo Spread?
That is to say, Torpedo Spread does nothing right now for Tricobalt Torpedos.
It does not increase their damage.
It does not fire multiple Tricobalts.
Its on a 30s rech for a Torpedo that has a shared cooldown with other Tricobalt Torpedos and yet Tricobalt Torpedos have a 1 minute cooldown.
Unless you are saying we will be able to fire multiple tricobalt torpedos with this skill, some other ideas might be faster flight speed and/or higher defense making it harder to shoot them down.
Anyway this is a great initiative on your part, and what I've seen you doing now in the forums with regards to looking for long standing powers balance issues that need to be dealt with.
Its this kind of interaction that has a positive impact on the community, and I really wish you luck and success with this continued endeavor.
(P.S. and when you have a chance to look, I posed a question to you on the intended functionality of Inertial Damps in the Chroniton Thread you posted in the PvP subforum.)