ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
No, I'm sorry, that's really not on. You do have a lot of assets in the game already, but that doesn't mean that you go and copy an entire map to fit for a new feature. Why is it that you're only now embracing this idea of reusing things anyway - when you've never done it before?
The lower decks are poor quality, plain and simple. The interior designers have picked some of the worst maps in the game to put into fleet starbases, and once this goes to holodeck, I imagine you're going to have even more people complaining about the lack of design consistency.
When you've made one-off interiors before - take the shuttle bay that's used in "Of Bajor", which we've never seen since - I'm apalled at the complete lack of care and quality that has been put into this new feature. Foundry authors have made better interiors than this, and they have vastly inferior tools to work with.
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Honestly don't mind, but I do think it would have been cooler if you'd used more elements from Utopia Planitia or 4028 :cool:
Wow people are really flipping out about the three lower decks. How much time do you expect to be spending in that tiny room? hours a day? in the end i don't think you will spend 10mins all day in that room even if it was 100% custom assets. maybe the first day you will poke around for 30mins just to look at it all but that will fade quickly. Its a small room regardless of how custom or not custom it is that -may- have little player time spent in it.
you will go in get the duty officer missions and then beam out. if thats the case why spend so much time on a room that is hardly going to be used compared to the main room with all the vendors, npcs, and shipyard npcs ect ect ect.
On that note, ok this is a reused room that you use the turbolift to get to... hmmm is it impossible for them to remaster that later? hmmm... i think not. They remastered the first tutorial missions on the fed side and how long do you spend doing that? 10mins maybe? How many different places have they remastered since the creation of the game? i have no idea at all. there is no reason to think that this will sit unchanged till the game rots. they have remastered once they can do it again.
All in all i don't see the point in all this flipping out. most of the starbase 'work' can be done in a window anywhere in the game. anything you can find on the starbase can be found on ESD, DS9 and others save for 3 or 4 custom fleet NPCs. When you fight to defend the base are you inside? nope your outside where far more changes and custom stuff happens.
No, I'm sorry, that's really not on. You do have a lot of assets in the game already, but that doesn't mean that you go and copy an entire map to fit for a new feature. Why is it that you're only now embracing this idea of reusing things anyway - when you've never done it before?
The lower decks are poor quality, plain and simple. The interior designers have picked some of the worst maps in the game to put into fleet starbases, and once this goes to holodeck, I imagine you're going to have even more people complaining about the lack of design consistency.
When you've made one-off interiors before - take the shuttle bay that's used in "Of Bajor", which we've never seen since - I'm apalled at the complete lack of care and quality that has been put into this new feature. Foundry authors have made better interiors than this, and they have vastly inferior tools to work with.
You'll be getting custom interiors in another 8 months anyway.
I can certainly see the case for reusing a DIFFERENT map. (Ie. Utopia Planetia.)
But what this game needs is more modular design and fewer custom maps.
I'd rather Taco work on assets that can be tagged for the Foundry, default ship interiors, and things that will get more reuse.
This is just a default template that people will be replacing in 8-12 months anyway.
And STO needs more map assets, not more maps, IMHO.
Its a small room regardless of how custom or not custom it is that -may- have little player time spent in it.
On that note, ok this is a reused room that you use the turbolift to get to... hmmm is it impossible for them to remaster that later? hmmm... i think not. They remastered the first tutorial missions on the fed side and how long do you spend doing that? 10mins maybe? How many different places have they remastered since the creation of the game?
All in all i don't see the point in all this flipping out. most of the starbase 'work' can be done in a window anywhere in the game. anything you can find on the starbase can be found on ESD, DS9 and others save for 3 or 4 custom fleet NPCs. When you fight to defend the base are you inside? nope your outside where far more changes and custom stuff happens.
That's hardly the point. If time can be spent on the main room, time should be spent on the others, too. If Cryptic are trying to push the updated 2409 style, then it needs to be consistent.
Naturally, they can re-master the rooms later on. But I don't think they will - look at the default ship interiors, for example. They've been left for years without any kind of updates.
Starbases should be a place where you want to spend your time, not a place that you want to avoid because you've seen it all before - especially when you consider the time and effort that's going to be put into developing a Tier V station.
You'll be getting custom interiors in another 8 months anyway.
I can certainly see the case for reusing a DIFFERENT map. (Ie. Utopia Planetia.)
I'd rather Taco work on assets that can be tagged for the Foundry, default ship interiors, and things that will get more reuse.
This is just a default template that people will be replacing in 8-12 months anyway.
And STO needs more map assets, not more maps, IMHO.
Of course STO needs more map assets, I agree with you there. I just would have thought that if time had been spent on the lower decks, there would be more assets already built.
I'm not so sure about the custom interiors, either. I guess time will tell, though.
I think they very well may come back and redo those rooms later. Somewhere else they stated they are going to be doing more "Fleet holdings" stuff in season 7 and beyond which means they will have a great opportunity to redo those rooms with a bit more flash.
I just cant get past why the flipping out and harsh words being thrown around that doesn't and wont change anything save make people mad.
Its a room that is going to be hardly used or seen in the long run. Heck after 3 months of starbases being out i dont see alot of people spending more than 20 mins a day max on the starbase at all. Just hop on the starbase swap ships, put stuff on the AH, or buy stuff then beam out. Now there will always be exceptions to those who enjoy RPings or have special fleet events on the station. The majority of that even will be going on the main deck which is custom anyways.
Yeah the time spent making these starbases should warrant players spending time their and at the start they will, just poking around and saying "Wow this is my fleets base" heck it will spike each time the starbase upgrades in tier, but that is going to fade quickly and it will just be one more ESD out in space with the Borg invasion script. No one will spend any real time inside the starbase.
You'll be getting custom interiors in another 8 months anyway.
I can certainly see the case for reusing a DIFFERENT map. (Ie. Utopia Planetia.)
But what this game needs is more modular design and fewer custom maps.
I'd rather Taco work on assets that can be tagged for the Foundry, default ship interiors, and things that will get more reuse.
This is just a default template that people will be replacing in 8-12 months anyway.
And STO needs more map assets, not more maps, IMHO.
Your working under the assumption that they will live up to that promise. So far, time and again, they have proven that they will in fact not live up to that kind of promise.
In providing feedback, either criticism or praise, for this current accessible project we cannot just assume that we will be able to fix it ourselves at any point in the future and forgive them poor design work.
I am not asking for new custom assets. I am asking them to make better use of newly created assets.
Why did they not use the doors, both secured and unsecured from the prison facility?
Why not use the updated and cleaner consoles from utopia and the Odyssey bridge?
Why not take the existing engineering and science assets and build a new interior with them?
I appreciate that they spent a lot of time on the new main room. And that left little time for the other decks, but would it really take them that much more time to actually put together something creative with the existing assets? Rather then to just copy, paste and reverse whole existing rooms?
Also, given that these bases are specialized for fleets, why would you not reuse rooms that would actually be related to a fleet? If you have to reuse rooms, reuse the ones we need.
Reuse the conference rooms from utopia, for people to use for fleet and wing meetings.
Reuse the awards hall from ESD so that we have a place for formal promotion and award events.
Reuse the Prison guard operations rooms for better looking functional ops rooms.
My point is that in the end, we have to ask them to do this here and now. Because this company has demonstrated time and again, that once one of these projects is "done" it will take a herculean effort to get them to ever do anything to improve or correct them.
Technical debt is Cryptic's only reliably proven product.
It was directed at anyone who thinks the foundry is evidence of how dev tools work.
it is completely irrelevant what you or i or anyone can do in the foundry in a short time or a long time. what you can make in an hour or a day is 100% different to how much they can do because of the complexity of the system and how its all coded together.
these guys are very talented and experienced artists. do you honestly think that someone who can design a room as awesome as the ops centre for both klinks and feds from total scratch, is incapable of any ideas at how to make a lower room look different? or that they can put that much effort into new maps with incredible detail but just became instantly lazy the moment they had to wok on a lower room.
people will always criticise them because they dont understand the process. you or anyone else are perceiving a copy and paste as a lack of effort simply because the process has been confused by their ability to use the foundry.
Of course the Foundry is different since Dev Tools are more advanced.
I seem to recall CapnLogan mentioning they use 3D Max for their modeling, and I have 3D Max, so I know how complicated it is to use. But it really is about en par with the Foundry with the simple models. The only difference is that they can take apart the modeled zone where we have to work around it. For example, that Lackey base, we can't remove those computer consoles, boxes, and generators, they can and in a fast manner.
When it comes to redesigning the zone, well that's another matter that does take time. For instance getting rid of that pit may take a day or so. But given they been working on this for a while, it should've been possible to make these zones look different. Guess the Art Team is bogged down with work that they had no choice but to short cut.
Hopefully, the Art Team is working on better looking Lower Levels over the next couple of months as people are rushing to Tier 5 SB, so these simple labs turn into something jawdropping when the base gets that final upgrade.
Wow people are really flipping out about the three lower decks. How much time do you expect to be spending in that tiny room? hours a day? in the end i don't think you will spend 10mins all day in that room even if it was 100% custom assets. maybe the first day you will poke around for 30mins just to look at it all but that will fade quickly. Its a small room regardless of how custom or not custom it is that -may- have little player time spent in it.
The Dev Team put these rooms in for a reason than just filler. So if they are intended to be used as part of yet revealed systems, then we surely would spend more time than just a few minutes.
I think they very well may come back and redo those rooms later. Somewhere else they stated they are going to be doing more "Fleet holdings" stuff in season 7 and beyond which means they will have a great opportunity to redo those rooms with a bit more flash.
I just cant get past why the flipping out and harsh words being thrown around that doesn't and wont change anything save make people mad.
Its a room that is going to be hardly used or seen in the long run. Heck after 3 months of starbases being out i dont see alot of people spending more than 20 mins a day max on the starbase at all. Just hop on the starbase swap ships, put stuff on the AH, or buy stuff then beam out. Now there will always be exceptions to those who enjoy RPings or have special fleet events on the station. The majority of that even will be going on the main deck which is custom anyways.
Yeah the time spent making these starbases should warrant players spending time their and at the start they will, just poking around and saying "Wow this is my fleets base" heck it will spike each time the starbase upgrades in tier, but that is going to fade quickly and it will just be one more ESD out in space with the Borg invasion script. No one will spend any real time inside the starbase.
By your way of seeing things, Cryptic might as well give us an empty square room, line all the vendors up that are of any use to us (STF gear, Dilithium vendor, EC vendor, GPL vendor), add a few consoles for Exchange, Mail and Bank, boom done...
Since you'll only be beaming in to visit one of these NPCs or using one of these stations, there's no need for a well-developed and good looking map, right? Since you'll only be using it for like 10 min each day.
By your way of seeing things, Cryptic might as well give us an empty square room, line all the vendors up that are of any use to us (STF gear, Dilithium vendor, EC vendor, GPL vendor), add a few consoles for Exchange, Mail and Bank, boom done...
Since you'll only be beaming in to visit one of these NPCs or using one of these stations, there's no need for a well-developed and good looking map, right? Since you'll only be using it for like 10 min each day.
Did i say they should do that? nope, you guys have one giant custom room in the starbase and the outside of the starbase will dynamically upgrade and change according to what projects are at what tier. the tier of the starbase itself effects numbers and types of NPCs floating around outside the starbase and may have the same impact inside the starbase NPC wise.
I mean isn't it nice there are these three rooms at all?
I am just saying what could happen on the majority of fleet bases they will be super hubs for a while but giving time they wont be used any more or less than ESD which has been re-mastered more than once... right? i could be wrong how many times has that been touched up? Didnt the Devs say somewhere else this is just stage one for fleets and more seasons are going to be devoted to them?
The Dev Team put these rooms in for a reason than just filler. So if they are intended to be used as part of yet revealed systems, then we surely would spend more time than just a few minutes.
alright, so if they are then they will have time and opportunity to redo them. otherwise they are just a tiny room players will pop in get Doff missions then pop out or beam out. I don't think that sort of time by players warrants a custom room right this very second. when its possible they will do something different later.
I mean they re-mastered the "new player" missions that no one even uses save for the first 2mins of a new characters life. What says they wont come back to this later and do something else? Yeah some things have sat unchanged for a long time but other things have been changed right?
Just to decloak in the thread before running off:
I wonder if the textures or lighting could be modified to at least "hide" the fact that the rooms and layouts are so familiar? As an interesting example, I think of Dronza station, it's got some familiar textures and crates, but the moody lighting at least makes it look different from the generic rooms for "explore the lab" missions, or even comparing Memory Alpha to them.
Always thought the science labs need a swirling sea green while the tactical needs a darkened NORAD kind of feel with the screens and panels being the main source of llighting.
Drink one shot for ever time someone complains about realism in Star Trek.
Drink two shots if they don't know what "fiction" is.
Just to decloak in the thread before running off:
I wonder if the textures or lighting could be modified to at least "hide" the fact that the rooms and layouts are so familiar? As an interesting example, I think of Dronza station, it's got some familiar textures and crates, but the moody lighting at least makes it look different from the generic rooms for "explore the lab" missions, or even comparing Memory Alpha to them.
Always thought the science labs need a swirling sea green while the tactical needs a darkened NORAD kind of feel with the screens and panels being the main source of llighting.
Love that suggestion. Changing the lighting would be a step in the right direction.
And I can't be as optimistic as some are, when it comes to promises regarding Starbase interiors (like future updates or foundry-like customization). After all, these promises were also made with regards to Starship interiors in Season 2 - as of today they were never realized (unless you count the C-Store options, which are awesome and creative, but still paid-for content).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "Sometimes you have to do things that you hate, so you can survive to fight another day."
Love that suggestion. Changing the lighting would be a step in the right direction.
And I can't be as optimistic as some are, when it comes to promises regarding Starbase interiors (like future updates or foundry-like customization). After all, these promises were also made with regards to Starship interiors in Season 2 - as of today they were never realized (unless you count the C-Store options, which are awesome and creative, but still paid-for content).
I'm still learning how to apply lighting correctly to set the mood in my own projects but STO has barely touched on the potential this has for some very interesting environmental effects, for Starbases, just having tier 0 being "dusty" and max tier being almost shiny with bloom effects would be a massive start.
Also, I apprectiate many people here are passionate, but at the end of the day, the threads here are to make sure at least Cryptic don't "TRIBBLE the f- up" as my fleet boss says!
Drink one shot for ever time someone complains about realism in Star Trek.
Drink two shots if they don't know what "fiction" is.
I just feel I have to make a quick point, to those who feel the need to "defend" Cryptic(beyond requesting a degree of civility); Cryptic are a company. That company may be made up of a bunch of cool dudes, but it is a business venture, and they are not your friend; their sole reason for being is to produce a product for you to consume in exchange for money.
If that product does not live up to the sales pitch, sycophancy is not going to change things, giving them a break is not going to change things, the only two things they care about are substantial negative feedback(as it might generate the wrong kind of publicity; and yes, despite what the gimps from marketing say, there is such a thing), or substantial reductions in revenue. The F2P model insulates them from the latter, which leaves the former. Negative doesn't have to mean rude, but it can and sometimes should mean confrontational, and even on my fifth rereading of tacofangs' post, I do NOT think anything that was said was unjustifiable prior to the clarification.
In short: "brand loyalty" is for idiots, you are a consumer of a product, act like it, and stop berating anyone who does.
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
alright, so if they are then they will have time and opportunity to redo them. otherwise they are just a tiny room players will pop in get Doff missions then pop out or beam out. I don't think that sort of time by players warrants a custom room right this very second. when its possible they will do something different later.
I mean they re-mastered the "new player" missions that no one even uses save for the first 2mins of a new characters life. What says they wont come back to this later and do something else? Yeah some things have sat unchanged for a long time but other things have been changed right?
You forgot they remastered the first two missions, mainly due to the Free STO Demo that was around before F2P. Which showed the best of STO and got people to buy the full verison of the game.
As for them fixing the rooms, given this thread, they very well probably already begun to do so. Hopefully.
As for the rooms being used more than a few seconds, hopefully the overall plan is greater than that. Else it really defeats the purpose of having a Fleet Starbase. People wanted the idea of a Fleet Starbase as a hangout, not another hub you zip in and zip out. Else they could've made Fleet Starbases just an instance from ESD or another Hub. (Which I wouldn't mind).
You forgot they remastered the first two missions, mainly due to the Free STO Demo that was around before F2P. Which showed the best of STO and got people to buy the full verison of the game.
As for them fixing the rooms, given this thread, they very well probably already begun to do so. Hopefully.
As for the rooms being used more than a few seconds, hopefully the overall plan is greater than that. Else it really defeats the purpose of having a Fleet Starbase. People wanted the idea of a Fleet Starbase as a hangout, not another hub you zip in and zip out. Else they could've made Fleet Starbases just an instance from ESD or another Hub. (Which I wouldn't mind).
Well i do agree, i dont believe they use the rule set of "X player time spent in a room = X Developer time spent on room" Though there is some truth to that statement. you dont really want to spend a week in concept art creation, approval, 3d modeling, installing into the game, testing, and release on a room that no one is going to spend much time in[or has little functionality] compared to spending that week on a room people will use/see alot.
I also hope people spend a TON of time on and around the starbases so Cryptic will then spend more time/money updating and giving them more and more functionality. However i am not sure if the player base will do that in the long run, like a year from now.
I do see a great future for Starbases because they are a foundation that can lead to bigger and greater things. The potential is there for something really cool, now we just have to wait for it to hopefully happen.
They mentioned something about transwarp gates that fleets can build to certain locations. May that include ESD or DS9? or i am just making that up in my mind?
It was once "the great and powerful DStahl" who promised to have every episode in the game remastered, by Year 2. That was almost 5 months ago.
Yes, I realize things happened in the past year (The year of hell, that is 2011). Point is, that's done with. The purchase of Cryptic is over, and the takeover is completed. And yet we've seen no mention of any intent, on getting back on track, to get the remaining episodes (all but 2) remastered. And the purpose of the remastering, is ofcourse to bring them "up-to-par" with episodes seen during the Feature Episode series. Course, we've all heard promises of bringing other things up-to-par, and we all know how well that went.
We can argue for as long as we want, about the "lackluster" quality of the lower decks in the Fleet Starbases. We can even argue that Cryptic may return to those interiors at some point, to remaster them. But facts say otherwise based on history. And history says, it will be a cold day in hell, before they return to remastering any of the content "already made".
We can argue for as long as we want, about the "lackluster" quality of the lower decks in the Fleet Starbases. We can even argue that Cryptic may return to those interiors at some point, to remaster them. But facts say otherwise based on history. And history says, it will be a cold day in hell, before they return to remastering any of the content "already made".
I hope i'm wrong...
Me too
but let me edit something you said here. "it will be a cold day in hell" = pretty much never
So to say that history and fact clearly shows cryptic doesn't go back and remaster things 'already made' would be a false statement, they have gone back and remastered more than one thing i am pretty sure right?
Yeah a lot of people wanted a lot more for this game and are pretty disillusioned at this point. There are even some of you who are pretty upset at the state of things [why you still post here or play the game is beyond me]. I cant deny the anger some of you have but i really dont understand it.
I mean shouldn't we be happy to be getting starbases[they could be worse and better] at all? How long have fleets sat with no 're-mastering' until now? 2 years? they are getting remastered and they were 'already made'
...it also felt odd to walk around the interior and not a single thing was working yet, i think the medic displayed a Hypo in his shop, but as soon as you click on another tab you get an empty popup with his face again.
And when you do that and pick something that isn't available it is almost impossible to get back to something that is available as it remembers your last choice and the listing doesn't stay up long enough to select the right thing again before going to the blank page.
Yeah a lot of people wanted a lot more for this game and are pretty disillusioned at this point. There are even some of you who are pretty upset at the state of things COLOR="Orange"]why you still post here or play the game is beyond me[/COLOR. I cant deny the anger some of you have but i really dont understand it.
Why you ask... Well, I'm a Trek fan, and last I check, this is the only Trek-themed MMO in existence.
If I were still a paying subscriber (payed for almost 600 days worth, at 15 dollars a month, so i've spent a pretty penny on this game), i'd have left the game behind long ago. But since the game is free these days, and I have a bit of time on my hands, why not continue playing? (on the failed hopes of things getting better)
Well i do agree, i dont believe they use the rule set of "X player time spent in a room = X Developer time spent on room" Though there is some truth to that statement. you dont really want to spend a week in concept art creation, approval, 3d modeling, installing into the game, testing, and release on a room that no one is going to spend much time in[or has little functionality] compared to spending that week on a room people will use/see alot.
I also hope people spend a TON of time on and around the starbases so Cryptic will then spend more time/money updating and giving them more and more functionality. However i am not sure if the player base will do that in the long run, like a year from now.
I do see a great future for Starbases because they are a foundation that can lead to bigger and greater things. The potential is there for something really cool, now we just have to wait for it to hopefully happen.
They mentioned something about transwarp gates that fleets can build to certain locations. May that include ESD or DS9? or i am just making that up in my mind?
By that logic then why bother adding those rooms in the first place if people are going to be there for a few seconds? Why even bother wasting time constructing these Starbases then?
And what future for Starbases? Bigger and Better? I really like to see some examples, because outside of Fleet systems, I really don't. Unless PvP isn't scrapped and players can invade other fleet Starbases and actually do some damage.
Transwarp Gates to certain locations? Who cares? I can warp to practically anyplace in STO with Mission Transwarps. So unless it opens up new places like the Gamma or Delta Quadrants, I really see no real incentive.
It was once "the great and powerful DStahl" who promised to have every episode in the game remastered, by Year 2. That was almost 5 months ago.
Remaster every episode? We knew that wasn't going to happen by any stretch of the immagination. At best we would get some of the most popular missions remastered like Past Imperfect.
We can argue for as long as we want, about the "lackluster" quality of the lower decks in the Fleet Starbases. We can even argue that Cryptic may return to those interiors at some point, to remaster them. But facts say otherwise based on history. And history says, it will be a cold day in hell, before they return to remastering any of the content "already made".
I hope i'm wrong...
Remastering episodes is not the same as as fixing Interiors. They fixed all the Hubs, and since Starbases are up there in our every day face, I think there is a good chance if they decide to fix it, they will.
By that logic then why bother adding those rooms in the first place if people are going to be there for a few seconds? Why even bother wasting time constructing these Starbases then?
And what future for Starbases? Bigger and Better? I really like to see some examples, because outside of Fleet systems, I really don't. Unless PvP isn't scrapped and players can invade other fleet Starbases and actually do some damage.
Transwarp Gates to certain locations? Who cares? I can warp to practically anyplace in STO with Mission Transwarps. So unless it opens up new places like the Gamma or Delta Quadrants, I really see no real incentive.
I said I DONT believe they would use that rule set.
Being i am not a DEV i cant give any examples that would mean squat because they could do anything. I also believe I read somewhere on here that they have plans for more fleet holdings in later seasons.
They could do anything with more fleet holdings, higher FED/KDF ranks and new sector blocks. They have already announced a new sector in a Dev blog.
As for what locations for transwarp gates i don't have a clue they just mentioned you can build transwarp gates around your fleet starbase.
you and I don't have any real answers, we can only guess as to what they may be doing outside what they have already posted.
I am not a Dev but right now i can think of some pretty cool things you can do outside the easy answer PvP realm for Starbases. however me giving random examples means nothing because i am not a dev.
From my point of view they have a great opportunity with starbases and fleet holdings not to mention adding new sectors/races to the game. How they use this opportunity is up to them now isn't it?
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
honestly?
i'd rather wait a month or two longer for the recycled rooms to be replaced by something new and shiny than to have to look at recycled rooms for the next YEARS to come and always thinking: *Bird of Prey explosion in Generations all over again* ...
YES i would absolutely wait for it!
(and no i don't believe that it would take several months to do a few rooms... 1 month at most, IF everything else on the schedule has to wait for it).
and it's not only that they are recycled, they don't fit the look & feel of the upper deck
i'd rather wait a month or two longer for the recycled rooms to be replaced by something new and shiny than to have to look at recycled rooms for the next YEARS to come and always thinking: *Bird of Prey explosion in Generations all over again* ...
YES i would absolutely wait for it!
(and no i don't believe that it would take several months to do a few rooms... 1 month at most, IF everything else on the schedule has to wait for it).
and it's not only that they are recycled, they don't fit the look & feel of the upper deck
I'm with zerobang on this one.
Yes, the game is in dire need of updates, and yes the wait is already far too long between "season patches". But if it means that i'd know extra work was being done to make it GOOD, rather than "Good enough", i'd be more than willing to wait an extra month or two.
Then again, I suppose Cryptic can't wait an extra month or two, since it means "lost revenue". Can't have that.
Some constructive feedback to break up the whining.
My main issue is with the Federation 'Engineering' section of the base, it has no Warp Core/Reactor of any kind just a blown up version of the Preserver Map http://i.imgur.com/YanVY.jpg , in contrast the KDF base uses the good old Engine room from our ship interior http://i.imgur.com/UP576.jpg which looks right at home in a Starbase.
Replace the Preserver map with some kind of reactor and everything would be fine in my books.
Oh and for the KDF I have a question what is this piece of equipment doing in the med bay http://i.imgur.com/lfpXp.jpg looks completely out of place.
As for the subject of "Lazy Reuse", I disagree as it adds to the Star Trek feel having set reused just like the Show & Movies(plus Starfleet facilities will have similar design to each-other)
There are many more like that, however if these reused sets in the game had a more noticeable re-texture to change the look a bit they would look even better.
Just a few ideas in reagrds to the lower deck maps (if we are reusing assets):-
Can we replace the Tactical map with the Utopia Planetia map? That map is truely awesome and was only seen once in a mission that has now been removed. I think with a few tweaks it would look awesome as part of the Starbase
Could we add the shuttlebay from 'Of Bajor' to the Starbase interior for switching to shuttlecraft perhaps?
The Engineering map looks a bit bland, is there any assets we could use, like warp cores or something, so it feels like the heart of the starbases power generation?
Could the old lounge from ESD be useable? It was an ok map and its no longer in the game.
I bring these up as there are quite a few pretty cool assets in the game (even some in the Captains Table) that might lend themselves well to the new Fleet starbases.
Comments
No, I'm sorry, that's really not on. You do have a lot of assets in the game already, but that doesn't mean that you go and copy an entire map to fit for a new feature. Why is it that you're only now embracing this idea of reusing things anyway - when you've never done it before?
The lower decks are poor quality, plain and simple. The interior designers have picked some of the worst maps in the game to put into fleet starbases, and once this goes to holodeck, I imagine you're going to have even more people complaining about the lack of design consistency.
When you've made one-off interiors before - take the shuttle bay that's used in "Of Bajor", which we've never seen since - I'm apalled at the complete lack of care and quality that has been put into this new feature. Foundry authors have made better interiors than this, and they have vastly inferior tools to work with.
Honestly don't mind, but I do think it would have been cooler if you'd used more elements from Utopia Planitia or 4028 :cool:
you will go in get the duty officer missions and then beam out. if thats the case why spend so much time on a room that is hardly going to be used compared to the main room with all the vendors, npcs, and shipyard npcs ect ect ect.
On that note, ok this is a reused room that you use the turbolift to get to... hmmm is it impossible for them to remaster that later? hmmm... i think not. They remastered the first tutorial missions on the fed side and how long do you spend doing that? 10mins maybe? How many different places have they remastered since the creation of the game? i have no idea at all. there is no reason to think that this will sit unchanged till the game rots. they have remastered once they can do it again.
All in all i don't see the point in all this flipping out. most of the starbase 'work' can be done in a window anywhere in the game. anything you can find on the starbase can be found on ESD, DS9 and others save for 3 or 4 custom fleet NPCs. When you fight to defend the base are you inside? nope your outside where far more changes and custom stuff happens.
You'll be getting custom interiors in another 8 months anyway.
I can certainly see the case for reusing a DIFFERENT map. (Ie. Utopia Planetia.)
But what this game needs is more modular design and fewer custom maps.
I'd rather Taco work on assets that can be tagged for the Foundry, default ship interiors, and things that will get more reuse.
This is just a default template that people will be replacing in 8-12 months anyway.
And STO needs more map assets, not more maps, IMHO.
That's hardly the point. If time can be spent on the main room, time should be spent on the others, too. If Cryptic are trying to push the updated 2409 style, then it needs to be consistent.
Naturally, they can re-master the rooms later on. But I don't think they will - look at the default ship interiors, for example. They've been left for years without any kind of updates.
Starbases should be a place where you want to spend your time, not a place that you want to avoid because you've seen it all before - especially when you consider the time and effort that's going to be put into developing a Tier V station.
Of course STO needs more map assets, I agree with you there. I just would have thought that if time had been spent on the lower decks, there would be more assets already built.
I'm not so sure about the custom interiors, either. I guess time will tell, though.
This map could compete well with the current Tier 0 Starfleet Tactical Level map. Good job.
I just cant get past why the flipping out and harsh words being thrown around that doesn't and wont change anything save make people mad.
Its a room that is going to be hardly used or seen in the long run. Heck after 3 months of starbases being out i dont see alot of people spending more than 20 mins a day max on the starbase at all. Just hop on the starbase swap ships, put stuff on the AH, or buy stuff then beam out. Now there will always be exceptions to those who enjoy RPings or have special fleet events on the station. The majority of that even will be going on the main deck which is custom anyways.
Yeah the time spent making these starbases should warrant players spending time their and at the start they will, just poking around and saying "Wow this is my fleets base" heck it will spike each time the starbase upgrades in tier, but that is going to fade quickly and it will just be one more ESD out in space with the Borg invasion script. No one will spend any real time inside the starbase.
Your working under the assumption that they will live up to that promise. So far, time and again, they have proven that they will in fact not live up to that kind of promise.
In providing feedback, either criticism or praise, for this current accessible project we cannot just assume that we will be able to fix it ourselves at any point in the future and forgive them poor design work.
I am not asking for new custom assets. I am asking them to make better use of newly created assets.
Why did they not use the doors, both secured and unsecured from the prison facility?
Why not use the updated and cleaner consoles from utopia and the Odyssey bridge?
Why not take the existing engineering and science assets and build a new interior with them?
I appreciate that they spent a lot of time on the new main room. And that left little time for the other decks, but would it really take them that much more time to actually put together something creative with the existing assets? Rather then to just copy, paste and reverse whole existing rooms?
Also, given that these bases are specialized for fleets, why would you not reuse rooms that would actually be related to a fleet? If you have to reuse rooms, reuse the ones we need.
Reuse the conference rooms from utopia, for people to use for fleet and wing meetings.
Reuse the awards hall from ESD so that we have a place for formal promotion and award events.
Reuse the Prison guard operations rooms for better looking functional ops rooms.
My point is that in the end, we have to ask them to do this here and now. Because this company has demonstrated time and again, that once one of these projects is "done" it will take a herculean effort to get them to ever do anything to improve or correct them.
Technical debt is Cryptic's only reliably proven product.
Edited cause I am grammatically challenged.
Thank you!
Of course the Foundry is different since Dev Tools are more advanced.
I seem to recall CapnLogan mentioning they use 3D Max for their modeling, and I have 3D Max, so I know how complicated it is to use. But it really is about en par with the Foundry with the simple models. The only difference is that they can take apart the modeled zone where we have to work around it. For example, that Lackey base, we can't remove those computer consoles, boxes, and generators, they can and in a fast manner.
When it comes to redesigning the zone, well that's another matter that does take time. For instance getting rid of that pit may take a day or so. But given they been working on this for a while, it should've been possible to make these zones look different. Guess the Art Team is bogged down with work that they had no choice but to short cut.
Hopefully, the Art Team is working on better looking Lower Levels over the next couple of months as people are rushing to Tier 5 SB, so these simple labs turn into something jawdropping when the base gets that final upgrade.
The Dev Team put these rooms in for a reason than just filler. So if they are intended to be used as part of yet revealed systems, then we surely would spend more time than just a few minutes.
By your way of seeing things, Cryptic might as well give us an empty square room, line all the vendors up that are of any use to us (STF gear, Dilithium vendor, EC vendor, GPL vendor), add a few consoles for Exchange, Mail and Bank, boom done...
Since you'll only be beaming in to visit one of these NPCs or using one of these stations, there's no need for a well-developed and good looking map, right? Since you'll only be using it for like 10 min each day.
Did i say they should do that? nope, you guys have one giant custom room in the starbase and the outside of the starbase will dynamically upgrade and change according to what projects are at what tier. the tier of the starbase itself effects numbers and types of NPCs floating around outside the starbase and may have the same impact inside the starbase NPC wise.
I mean isn't it nice there are these three rooms at all?
I am just saying what could happen on the majority of fleet bases they will be super hubs for a while but giving time they wont be used any more or less than ESD which has been re-mastered more than once... right? i could be wrong how many times has that been touched up? Didnt the Devs say somewhere else this is just stage one for fleets and more seasons are going to be devoted to them?
alright, so if they are then they will have time and opportunity to redo them. otherwise they are just a tiny room players will pop in get Doff missions then pop out or beam out. I don't think that sort of time by players warrants a custom room right this very second. when its possible they will do something different later.
I mean they re-mastered the "new player" missions that no one even uses save for the first 2mins of a new characters life. What says they wont come back to this later and do something else? Yeah some things have sat unchanged for a long time but other things have been changed right?
I wonder if the textures or lighting could be modified to at least "hide" the fact that the rooms and layouts are so familiar? As an interesting example, I think of Dronza station, it's got some familiar textures and crates, but the moody lighting at least makes it look different from the generic rooms for "explore the lab" missions, or even comparing Memory Alpha to them.
Always thought the science labs need a swirling sea green while the tactical needs a darkened NORAD kind of feel with the screens and panels being the main source of llighting.
Drink one shot for ever time someone complains about realism in Star Trek.
Drink two shots if they don't know what "fiction" is.
And I can't be as optimistic as some are, when it comes to promises regarding Starbase interiors (like future updates or foundry-like customization). After all, these promises were also made with regards to Starship interiors in Season 2 - as of today they were never realized (unless you count the C-Store options, which are awesome and creative, but still paid-for content).
"Sometimes you have to do things that you hate, so you can survive to fight another day."
Also, I apprectiate many people here are passionate, but at the end of the day, the threads here are to make sure at least Cryptic don't "TRIBBLE the f- up" as my fleet boss says!
Drink one shot for ever time someone complains about realism in Star Trek.
Drink two shots if they don't know what "fiction" is.
If that product does not live up to the sales pitch, sycophancy is not going to change things, giving them a break is not going to change things, the only two things they care about are substantial negative feedback(as it might generate the wrong kind of publicity; and yes, despite what the gimps from marketing say, there is such a thing), or substantial reductions in revenue. The F2P model insulates them from the latter, which leaves the former. Negative doesn't have to mean rude, but it can and sometimes should mean confrontational, and even on my fifth rereading of tacofangs' post, I do NOT think anything that was said was unjustifiable prior to the clarification.
In short: "brand loyalty" is for idiots, you are a consumer of a product, act like it, and stop berating anyone who does.
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
You forgot they remastered the first two missions, mainly due to the Free STO Demo that was around before F2P. Which showed the best of STO and got people to buy the full verison of the game.
As for them fixing the rooms, given this thread, they very well probably already begun to do so. Hopefully.
As for the rooms being used more than a few seconds, hopefully the overall plan is greater than that. Else it really defeats the purpose of having a Fleet Starbase. People wanted the idea of a Fleet Starbase as a hangout, not another hub you zip in and zip out. Else they could've made Fleet Starbases just an instance from ESD or another Hub. (Which I wouldn't mind).
Well i do agree, i dont believe they use the rule set of "X player time spent in a room = X Developer time spent on room" Though there is some truth to that statement. you dont really want to spend a week in concept art creation, approval, 3d modeling, installing into the game, testing, and release on a room that no one is going to spend much time in[or has little functionality] compared to spending that week on a room people will use/see alot.
I also hope people spend a TON of time on and around the starbases so Cryptic will then spend more time/money updating and giving them more and more functionality. However i am not sure if the player base will do that in the long run, like a year from now.
I do see a great future for Starbases because they are a foundation that can lead to bigger and greater things. The potential is there for something really cool, now we just have to wait for it to hopefully happen.
They mentioned something about transwarp gates that fleets can build to certain locations. May that include ESD or DS9? or i am just making that up in my mind?
Yes, I realize things happened in the past year (The year of hell, that is 2011). Point is, that's done with. The purchase of Cryptic is over, and the takeover is completed. And yet we've seen no mention of any intent, on getting back on track, to get the remaining episodes (all but 2) remastered. And the purpose of the remastering, is ofcourse to bring them "up-to-par" with episodes seen during the Feature Episode series. Course, we've all heard promises of bringing other things up-to-par, and we all know how well that went.
We can argue for as long as we want, about the "lackluster" quality of the lower decks in the Fleet Starbases. We can even argue that Cryptic may return to those interiors at some point, to remaster them. But facts say otherwise based on history. And history says, it will be a cold day in hell, before they return to remastering any of the content "already made".
I hope i'm wrong...
Me too
but let me edit something you said here. "it will be a cold day in hell" = pretty much never
So to say that history and fact clearly shows cryptic doesn't go back and remaster things 'already made' would be a false statement, they have gone back and remastered more than one thing i am pretty sure right?
Yeah a lot of people wanted a lot more for this game and are pretty disillusioned at this point. There are even some of you who are pretty upset at the state of things [why you still post here or play the game is beyond me]. I cant deny the anger some of you have but i really dont understand it.
I mean shouldn't we be happy to be getting starbases[they could be worse and better] at all? How long have fleets sat with no 're-mastering' until now? 2 years? they are getting remastered and they were 'already made'
And when you do that and pick something that isn't available it is almost impossible to get back to something that is available as it remembers your last choice and the listing doesn't stay up long enough to select the right thing again before going to the blank page.
Why you ask... Well, I'm a Trek fan, and last I check, this is the only Trek-themed MMO in existence.
If I were still a paying subscriber (payed for almost 600 days worth, at 15 dollars a month, so i've spent a pretty penny on this game), i'd have left the game behind long ago. But since the game is free these days, and I have a bit of time on my hands, why not continue playing? (on the failed hopes of things getting better)
By that logic then why bother adding those rooms in the first place if people are going to be there for a few seconds? Why even bother wasting time constructing these Starbases then?
And what future for Starbases? Bigger and Better? I really like to see some examples, because outside of Fleet systems, I really don't. Unless PvP isn't scrapped and players can invade other fleet Starbases and actually do some damage.
Transwarp Gates to certain locations? Who cares? I can warp to practically anyplace in STO with Mission Transwarps. So unless it opens up new places like the Gamma or Delta Quadrants, I really see no real incentive.
Remaster every episode? We knew that wasn't going to happen by any stretch of the immagination. At best we would get some of the most popular missions remastered like Past Imperfect.
Remastering episodes is not the same as as fixing Interiors. They fixed all the Hubs, and since Starbases are up there in our every day face, I think there is a good chance if they decide to fix it, they will.
I said I DONT believe they would use that rule set.
Being i am not a DEV i cant give any examples that would mean squat because they could do anything. I also believe I read somewhere on here that they have plans for more fleet holdings in later seasons.
They could do anything with more fleet holdings, higher FED/KDF ranks and new sector blocks. They have already announced a new sector in a Dev blog.
As for what locations for transwarp gates i don't have a clue they just mentioned you can build transwarp gates around your fleet starbase.
you and I don't have any real answers, we can only guess as to what they may be doing outside what they have already posted.
I am not a Dev but right now i can think of some pretty cool things you can do outside the easy answer PvP realm for Starbases. however me giving random examples means nothing because i am not a dev.
From my point of view they have a great opportunity with starbases and fleet holdings not to mention adding new sectors/races to the game. How they use this opportunity is up to them now isn't it?
honestly?
i'd rather wait a month or two longer for the recycled rooms to be replaced by something new and shiny than to have to look at recycled rooms for the next YEARS to come and always thinking: *Bird of Prey explosion in Generations all over again* ...
YES i would absolutely wait for it!
(and no i don't believe that it would take several months to do a few rooms... 1 month at most, IF everything else on the schedule has to wait for it).
and it's not only that they are recycled, they don't fit the look & feel of the upper deck
I'm with zerobang on this one.
Yes, the game is in dire need of updates, and yes the wait is already far too long between "season patches". But if it means that i'd know extra work was being done to make it GOOD, rather than "Good enough", i'd be more than willing to wait an extra month or two.
Then again, I suppose Cryptic can't wait an extra month or two, since it means "lost revenue". Can't have that.
My main issue is with the Federation 'Engineering' section of the base, it has no Warp Core/Reactor of any kind just a blown up version of the Preserver Map http://i.imgur.com/YanVY.jpg , in contrast the KDF base uses the good old Engine room from our ship interior http://i.imgur.com/UP576.jpg which looks right at home in a Starbase.
Replace the Preserver map with some kind of reactor and everything would be fine in my books.
Also what appears to be Ops in the Fed base has no veiw screen of any kind either http://i.imgur.com/Wn4qm.jpg
Oh and for the KDF I have a question what is this piece of equipment doing in the med bay http://i.imgur.com/lfpXp.jpg looks completely out of place.
As for the subject of "Lazy Reuse", I disagree as it adds to the Star Trek feel having set reused just like the Show & Movies(plus Starfleet facilities will have similar design to each-other)
Ent-D Engineering = Ent-A Engineering redecorated
Ent-E Sickbay = Voyager Sickbay redecorated
There are many more like that, however if these reused sets in the game had a more noticeable re-texture to change the look a bit they would look even better.
I bring these up as there are quite a few pretty cool assets in the game (even some in the Captains Table) that might lend themselves well to the new Fleet starbases.
conference hall
Thats a lot of empty space for three people. On the flip side for massive super fleets of doom thats about as much space as they need.