To be honest, I'm dissapointed with the quality of the lower decks, which are re-hashed maps taken from low level missions. For a brand new feature that has been worked on for the past few months, I would have expected something of a much higher quality.
There should not be a huge difference between the style of Ops and the rest of the starbase interior. It reeks of a half-baked product - and while I have no doubt the system itself has been worked on, I'm annoyed that the same level of attention hasn't been paid to interiors, yet again.
I like the starbases very much, i suppose there will more interior details. something i really feel it lacks now is a kind of conference room, for fleet meetings and such things. I dunno, a kind of long table where all can sit... or at least a room one can use for ceremony.
Regards
Heck, take the one from the Diplomacy missions, or the captains table... seems like a copy paste, and repaint
Seriously, liking what I am seeing, but like others see some room for improvement... the Ops, Sci, and Tac levels really should get some updates... and a conference room would be a great addition. Ceremony room... not a huge fan... I think the ops main area would work for that. Using the empty room (surrounded by glass, accessible via bridge) as your "popdium"
Heck, take the one from the Diplomacy missions, or the captains table... seems like a copy paste, and repaint
Seriously, liking what I am seeing, but like others see some room for improvement... the Ops, Sci, and Tac levels really should get some updates... and a conference room would be a great addition. Ceremony room... not a huge fan... I think the ops main area would work for that. Using the empty room (surrounded by glass, accessible via bridge) as your "popdium"
that area is the meeting room. just missing the table at tier 0
Well heres the deal going into the KDF one I was like wow this is awesome very very different from what we have had which wasn't much of anything. Then the disappointment set in hardcore when I looked at the tactical, engineering, and science it was just a cut and paste of every bridge of the KDF and looked tacky.
I must say, this is extremely disappointing if it's true that these no-effort cut&paste jobs for the lower decks are the final product. How can the devs expect us to invest months and months of effort into a new game system when they seemingly have invested so little?
This doesn't bode well for us ever seeing decent starship interiors either, if they're still reusing the godawful assets from the old ones in "new" projects, just with a couple of consoles shifted around and a new carpet :rolleyes:
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
You want my honest feedback about the Starbase Interiors (from a FED perspective) ? I'll give it to you, with 1 simple word:
LAZYNESS!
The interior of the Ops area looks nice, but could easily be spruced up with more modern looking consoles, such as those seen on the Odyssey bridge, with transparent displays etc.
The interior of the Lower Decks on the other hand, is complete and utter lazyness on the part of the interior designers. To say that they were "recently made" is a slap in the face, to anyone who has played through atleast the Klingon Front (as a Federation player), since atleast one of the Starbase interiors (Tactical map), is largely based off of interior that can be found in atleast 2 different episodes in the game.
Likewise, the Engineering and Science maps leave much to be desired, and I feel need a COMPLETE overhaul, before going forward to Holodeck. So my advice in closing, is to toss the maps in the trash, go back to the drawing board, and this time, get it done properly!!!
EDIT: I apologize if much of what I wrote above has previously already been written. I've posted in alot of threads over the past few days, it's hard to keep track of which ones I already posted in.
Well heres the deal going into the KDF one I was like wow this is awesome very very different from what we have had which wasn't much of anything. Then the disappointment set in hardcore when I looked at the tactical, engineering, and science it was just a cut and paste of every bridge of the KDF and looked tacky.
Oh heck no.... KDF and Feddies getting the same treatment! I call BS... the feddies have 84% of the player base, we should have better, stronger, and more elaborate fleet bases.... i mean... we're the federation... it isn't fair....
Sorry couldnt resist... last thread i was reading was full of whining (from both sides).
You want my honest feedback about the Starbase Interiors (from a FED perspective) ? I'll give it to you, with 1 simple word:
LAZYNESS!
The interior of the Ops area looks nice, but could easily be spruced up with more modern looking consoles, such as those seen on the Odyssey bridge, with transparent displays etc.
The interior of the Lower Decks on the other hand, is complete and utter lazyness on the part of the interior designers. To say that they were "recently made" is a slap in the face, to anyone who has played through atleast the Klingon Front (as a Federation player), since atleast one of the Starbase interiors (Tactical map), is largely based off of interior that can be found in atleast 2 different episodes in the game.
Likewise, the Engineering and Science maps leave much to be desired, and I feel need a COMPLETE overhaul, before going forward to Holodeck. So my advice in closing, is to toss the maps in the trash, go back to the drawing board, and this time, get it done properly!!!
EDIT: I apologize if much of what I wrote above has previously already been written. I've posted in alot of threads over the past few days, it's hard to keep track of which ones I already posted in.
Nevertheless, the sentiment still stands...
I think that a personal attack on the Developers Character is completely and utterly unwarranted. Do you honestly believe that;
a) the developers control the release cycle -- wrong, that is dictated by corporate... the developers are most likely faced with pressured unrealistic deadlines (mainly due to corporate reacting to the constant whining of the user base on the forums).
b) that if you honestly polled ANY of the developers working on this project, and asked if they WANTED to reuse skins.. that you would get a resounding yes?
c) that the developers do not want to take pride in their work, that they do not want to put out a quality product. Lets not forget their names and reputations (edit and livelihoods) are tied to this game as well. I have yet to meet a developer (and I work with them from all over the world) that does not strive to produce the best product they can. I'll go a step further to say that they take their work PERSONALLY, they put themselves into their work... the bug bothers them... the re-use of a well known skin bothers them... but they have people to answer to as well.
For the love of God people, cut them some freaking slack. First we complain and complain about when are we getting them... I want I want I want... we dump pressure on them as well as corporate PWE, Atari or whomever to produce (if i dont get something new, I'm leaving, I'm canceling my subscription, I'm <insert threat here>)... and produce right now... then they put it out and its not good enough?
Then you have the unmitigated gall to attack their character as a person... if you are not ashamed of yourself, then I am ashamed for you.
It is one thing to offer suggestions (as many did here), it is quite another to level a personal attack against a group of people, that I can only imagine are trying their hardest to provide a quality product, under unrealistic deadlines, with as few bugs as possible.
To the developers; thank you... its obvious to me by reading these forums that you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Thank you for what you do... I love the game, and I love what I see in Season 6... I can't wait for its general release.
Hey man, you shouldn't attack people like that. You make like everyone who disliked the new interiors to be ungrateful. I assure you that we aren't ungrateful to the Dev Team, else we wouldn't be here supporting this game after so many years.
The fact is that Fleet Starbases supposed to be the big part of Season 6 and if its full of reused map assets, of course people will think baddly. They will think that they just threw this together overnight instead of working hard on it for months. After all en par to your average Foundry Mission.
If these change when you get assets upgraded, we don't know. But the way it is now, people can't wonder why these places aren't more spectacular.
For instance, the Infirmery / Sickbay, why doesn't feel like a hospital? Why not have it more like Crusher's Sickbay?
The Tactical Room, it's more like a NORAD Situation Room than a war room. (I actually been in the real thing at MacDill AFB). Have a flat room with some holograms of the Klingon Front on some of the Tables. Maybe a tactical situation around your Starbase with showing Holograms of the Station with the Transwarp Gate, the Shipyard, and the Comm Station?
Engineering.....it could've been more like the lab that Geordi fiddled with Data and his family. Another could have a shuttle being worked on for somekind of Spec Op?
Hey man, you shouldn't attack people like that. You make like everyone who disliked the new interiors to be ungrateful. I assure you that we aren't ungrateful to the Dev Team, else we wouldn't be here supporting this game after so many years.
The fact is that Fleet Starbases supposed to be the big part of Season 6 and if its full of reused map assets, of course people will think baddly. They will think that they just threw this together overnight instead of working hard on it for months. After all en par to your average Foundry Mission.
If these change when you get assets upgraded, we don't know. But the way it is now, people can't wonder why these places aren't more spectacular.
For instance, the Infirmery / Sickbay, why doesn't feel like a hospital? Why not have it more like Crusher's Sickbay?
The Tactical Room, it's more like a NORAD Situation Room than a war room. (I actually been in the real thing at MacDill AFB). Have a flat room with some holograms of the Klingon Front on some of the Tables. Maybe a tactical situation around your Starbase with showing Holograms of the Station with the Transwarp Gate, the Shipyard, and the Comm Station?
Engineering.....it could've been more like the lab that Geordi fiddled with Data and his family. Another could have a shuttle being worked on for somekind of Spec Op?
So much potential!
I am not attacking valid suggestions like those you have made here... you are commenting on possible improvements to the maps/skins... as many other have done in this thread.
I am attacking the fact that the poster I was quoting commented the the one word he had was LAZYNESS, that the lack of original skins for the lower levers constituted laziness on the part of the interior design team. Those are direct attacks on the character and integrity of the person, not on the output. Telling them to throw it away, and do it over "and do it properly" is just plain insulting.
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Tumerboy, don't take him serious. You know way more what you have done for yourself and Star Trek Online then what he knows. I would just completely ignore the post from him. I love all your work you put into STO. ---hugs--- :biggrin:
Personally here is the feedback from my fleet:
We love the interiors and there is a great detail into the interiors. Sure there are some things that have to be fixed and I think I posted in this thread before. Keep up the great work. :biggrin:
Lifetime - Joined 2008 - U.S.S. Kilimanjaro - Inner Circle
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
What would the point be in taking all the time to create fully new and custom rooms when really if you haven't noticed every Star Trek series and movie has taken sets and reused or redressed them a million times anyways. Everything the Federation produces is very utilitarian in design and easily replicated in mass quantities, that just translate into this game just like everything else.
Personally I would rather they take assets that already exist, reuse or redress them and then use them to cut down the development time and get some other things changed like reducing the amount of wandering crew in the small deck layout or other things.
...would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor?. . .
I dont think that the release should be delayed. There were some minor bug issues, and some really good ideas for possible UI changes to the donation system, but certainly not for new interiors.
I am not attacking valid suggestions like those you have made here... you are commenting on possible improvements to the maps/skins... as many other have done in this thread.
I am attacking the fact that the poster I was quoting commented the the one word he had was LAZYNESS, that the lack of original skins for the lower levers constituted laziness on the part of the interior design team. Those are direct attacks on the character and integrity of the person, not on the output. Telling them to throw it away, and do it over "and do it properly" is just plain insulting.
I stand by every word I wrote.
Well, as the Devs know some people are rather ....... too passionate in their comments. Was his comment too much? Perhaps. But you got to see it from their persective as well, that some people think that cutting and pasting to save time makes it look like you're not putting the all as was expected.
What would the point be in taking all the time to create fully new and custom rooms when really if you haven't noticed every Star Trek series and movie has taken sets and reused or redressed them a million times anyways. Everything the Federation produces is very utilitarian in design and easily replicated in mass quantities, that just translate into this game just like everything else.
Personally I would rather they take assets that already exist, reuse or redress them and then use them to cut down the development time and get some other things changed like reducing the amount of wandering crew in the small deck layout or other things.
To me, this is where I would define that fine line of cutting and pasting.
As you said, they reused Props and Sets all the time, even with CGI they reused models. But the thing is, they rarely kept things exactly as they were, they always tried to make somekind of artistic change so it looked different. This is what Cryptic really should look into.
Reusing assets without anykind of effort to change the appearance = BAD.
Reusing assets and make an attempt to change the apperance = GOOD.
Creation of new assets = GREAT!
So if the Art Team had time, I would say go back and tweek up those sets a little bit.
With the Tactical, get rid of the platform and get rid of the computers in the middle. Add a Tactical Table. Lower the lights. Change the pictures to a more tactical setting.
Engineering, get rid of the office and replace it with a ship hologram. Add the new Odyssey and Defiant displays.
Science, add something like a floating Flower or a Miniature CE in a forcefield.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Easy Taco, don't go extra spicy with that salsa.
Look man, people do understand the reuse of assets. But if you was in our shoes, wouldn't you be somewhat bothered by an obvious reuse of assets? I think people just want to feel like you put somekind of effort into the work.
You know, I think I'll grab the Lackley map right now and do a quick fiddle on the Foundry to show what you could've done.
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
dude, most of us know you guys work hard and put a lot of effort in. ignore the ones who are rude or just plain ignorant.
sometimes i think the foundry was the worst thing for you guys as it gives people this false impression of what the devs tools are or how real game development is.
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Not calling you a liar or anything my view on it is you can't make federation things but so many ways to keep it looking federation. My issue is with the KDF stuff which I am sure based on seeing what you have done is not your work as far as the same old stuff we have that looks like it was done in 5 minutes.
The problem I see is that if you look at what you did first the first interior room for the KDF and then look at what was reused/copy and pasted its a drastic difference. Its kinda the same mentality that was used when going to make KDF bridges to not spend "Too Much Time" because only 18% might even buy them.
All in all when it comes to the way the KDF stuff started out looking and it being reused again it just seems like you may have been better off making it from scratch or redoing those after it launches just so they are there but some kind of indication as a work in progress. Although I do see where they were touched up a little bit but for most part its the way the crates and walls look that irritates me the most.
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
I don't think you should delay season 6 (and arguing that way seems a bit polemical). But in all fairness, the lower decks of the Fed Starbase don't have ANYTHING in common with the good-looking OPS level. They seem sloppy and halfheartedly done. That parts of them are (exact!) copies of two year old maps just adds insult to injury.
This isn't even a nerdrage. People here have complaint very reasonably (and it seems you picked out one of the only ones who was actually ranting).
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Now this comment I find a bit irritating. I have never really seen a player complaining about new environments. And even if: The Starbases are the next big shiny thing for STO! They will get a lot of attention and people are supposed to very actively use them. How the maps of something so big and game-changing can get less love than the event-only Utopia Planitia is way beyond me.
And this is not complaining about UP at all - that was a very nice, sweet surprise. It just might explain one of the angles were the complaints, disappointment and impression of laziness are coming from. In the last year or so, STO has delivered some very exciting and sleek quality environments. The lower decks don't do them justice and they seem like a huge step back in the wrong direction.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "Sometimes you have to do things that you hate, so you can survive to fight another day."
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Now I got the good old Henry Rollins in my head again.
While I'm not really in the loop with STO currently I recall some talk balk in the Foundry is coming days. Customizable interiors using a brick by brick system. Which was 'postponed' for Starbases. Am I right to assume that has been shelved?
sure they do. there have been whole threads on the subject that they should reuse old assets to save time and money.
Yup. I'm one of them.
Look, the tech for custom starbase and ship interiors should be filtering into STO into 6-8 months. I don't see the point of making every map new. I'd rather see modular use of assets and save the splashy new interiors for something other than starbases or ship interiors, which should look fairly uniform and utilitarian.
If we're talking about map work, maybe re-doing the default ship interior decks would be nice.
I think it would be wasteful to put TOTALLY NEW interiors in starbases or missions at this point. Missions have plenty of assets and I'd rather see new assets be modular and designed for reuse. As for the starbase, it looks like a starbase. You'll be customizing over it eventually anyway.
sometimes i think the foundry was the worst thing for you guys as it gives people this false impression of what the devs tools are or how real game development is.
Can't help but to think that remark was directed at me.
I know the Foundry is much different than the Dev tools, I was merely showing what I thought could've been done to make Lackey look different in a short time. Because if they put at least some effort to make it not look like an exact copy and paste job, then people won't be as critical.
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
not everyone feels that way, dnt let non constructive , mean or nasty people dissueade you from conversing with us
Can't help but to think that remark was directed at me.
I know the Foundry is much different than the Dev tools, I was merely showing what I thought could've been done to make Lackey look different in a short time. Because if they put at least some effort to make it not look like an exact copy and paste job, then people won't be as critical.
It was directed at anyone who thinks the foundry is evidence of how dev tools work.
it is completely irrelevant what you or i or anyone can do in the foundry in a short time or a long time. what you can make in an hour or a day is 100% different to how much they can do because of the complexity of the system and how its all coded together.
these guys are very talented and experienced artists. do you honestly think that someone who can design a room as awesome as the ops centre for both klinks and feds from total scratch, is incapable of any ideas at how to make a lower room look different? or that they can put that much effort into new maps with incredible detail but just became instantly lazy the moment they had to wok on a lower room.
people will always criticise them because they dont understand the process. you or anyone else are perceiving a copy and paste as a lack of effort simply because the process has been confused by their ability to use the foundry.
I think that a personal attack on the Developers Character is completely and utterly unwarranted. Do you honestly believe that;
For the love of God people, cut them some freaking slack. First we complain and complain about when are we getting them... I want I want I want... we dump pressure on them as well as corporate PWE, Atari or whomever to produce (if i dont get something new, I'm leaving, I'm canceling my subscription, I'm <insert threat here>)... and produce right now... then they put it out and its not good enough?
Then you have the unmitigated gall to attack their character as a person... if you are not ashamed of yourself, then I am ashamed for you.
It is one thing to offer suggestions (as many did here), it is quite another to level a personal attack against a group of people, that I can only imagine are trying their hardest to provide a quality product, under unrealistic deadlines, with as few bugs as possible.
You may consider it a "personal attack" on the developers, and if so... so be it. I'm done "playing nice" with these devs. I'm just telling it the way I see it, which is that the Starbase Interiors were done out of LAZYNESS, primarily in the Lower Deck areas. And don't tell me otherwise, cause I KNOW that the lower decks are a re-use of existing areas (and then I get told by one of the devs, that it was "just made", which is a blatant lie).
"Cut them some slack", Well... I don't know if you were around for the "Year of Hell" that was 2011, with the playerbase being strung along by empty promises, all the while being left out of the loop on what's ACTUALLY going on. I've given them enough slack over the past 2.5 years, enough is enough really. I've also given them several hundred dollars of my hard-earned cash, I think I deserve atleast some respect from the company whom I am paying the salary for. If it weren't for us, they wouldn't have a salary, and they would be out of a job. Never forget that.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
Season 5 was released in early December. That was almost 7 months ago. I'm sure the idea of what Season 6 was suppose to be about, didn't just "pop up" 2 weeks ago. During those 7 months, i'm reasonably certain, a more custom, and less "re-used" design for the lower decks could've been made up.
I'm also fairly certain that a "level designer" would have very little involvement in, for example... systems design (Fleet Starbase functionality). So I wouldn't buy it, that "all our guys are working on x feature".
As for the part calling you out as a liar... Well, you never stated in your original post that "these parts were reused, these parts were brand new, but the whole map was just created recently". You implied the entire thing was made up just recently, including the obvious reuse of the tactical room, and science/medbay room. And it was on THAT part, where I called you out as a liar, since it obviously wasn't "just made" when it already had made an appearance elsewhere.
And yes, I know full well that Star Trek productions often reuse assets. The Prometheus bridge is a reuse of the Enterprise-A bridge for example. But most productions, go to the effort of trying to "mask" that the asset is a reuse. The Tactical Room is virtually identical to it's mission counterpart. That's not masking... that's copying outright.
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
To your first point, if people misunderstand what you say, and what you say is evidently ambiguous enough that they way the construed it is still justifiable after a second or third reading(which it is), perhaps you should be showing a little contrition rather than acting like people are perpetrating some monstrous injustice upon you?
To your second, this is a poor argument. First, I've not seen the sentiment you described expressed to anywhere near the level your wording suggests(in fact, I've not seen it expressed at all, just the generic "new stuff bad, me want bug fixy fixy" that about 10% of every MMO forum consists of), and second, it's a strawman unless the individual who you are addressing is the person who's been making these statements, and he is not.
Someone quickly jumps in to lick your boots and compares what you're doing here with set redressing in the TV shows, and there are parallels, but only inasmuch as both involve the reuse of assets. If a set designer were to do a redress which was still instantly recognisable as the original set, they would have failed to achieve their sole objective; not just to reuse resources to save time, but to do so in such a way that the reuse is not obvious to the viewer.
There are many parts of STO which reuse other assets, and it only becomes evident on the second or third go through of the content when the player is not so focused on the events at hand, but in the case of these starbase interiors I believe criticising such a blatant reuse of existing locations is absolutely justifiable, most obviously because they are blatant -people have looked at these pictures and immediately discerned exactly what they are and where they were previously used- but also because we're not talking about a mission level here. These interiors are not somewhere we will visit once, perhaps two or three times to get all the loot/try alternative strategies, they are places we will be spending large amounts of time in, yet it is apparent that the same amount of attention has been paid to them as such basic mission content, less even when compared to some content.
Take a moment, and walk around Bajor, Starfleet Academy, DS9, and consider that people are expecting to occupy their fleet base far more than any of those social locations which are full to the brim with unique new assets with some carefully disguised reuse of older assets, and perhaps you will understand why people are unsatisfied with the chaps who did this interior just plonking down three existing locations, changing the carpet, and moving a couple of consoles about.
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
Someone quickly jumps in to lick your boots and compares what you're doing here with set redressing in the TV shows, and there are parallels, but only inasmuch as both involve the reuse of assets. If a set designer were to do a redress which was still instantly recognisable as the original set, they would have failed to achieve their sole objective; not just to reuse resources to save time, but to do so in such a way that the reuse is not obvious to the viewer.
Take a moment, and walk around Bajor, Starfleet Academy, DS9, and consider that people are expecting to occupy their fleet base far more than any of those social locations which are full to the brim with unique new assets with some carefully disguised reuse of older assets, and perhaps you will understand why people are unsatisfied with the chaps who did this interior just plonking down three existing locations, changing the carpet, and moving a couple of consoles about.
Thank you. Summed it up quite nicely.
(Also, to the person(s) who said, to ignore my comments... Are my dollars any less worth than yours? Does your dollars somehow entitle you to preferential treatment, over my dollars? Pure and utter arrogance.)
People are certainly welcome to express displeasure at the way the lower levels were designed/re-used. I am sympathetic to a point and was obviously not impressed with the lower levels. I don't think anyone LIKES the lower levels.
I do think that the EXTERIORS are awesome and the MECHANICS are well-designed. The lower decks are not a deal-killer for me and are not enough of an issue to prevent me from being excited about Starbases.
Hopefully, we will be able to unlock newer, better layouts for the lower decks and/or outright customize them with the foundry at some point.
THAT SAID:
What I and others object to strongly is calling an excellent, involved dev like Tumerboy a 'LIAR'. He did not lie, you took him up the wrong way and are now arguing semantics. Tacoface didn't even do the interiors, and yet he is getting grief for trying to respond and give accurate information.
No one likes being insulted or slandered. People wonder why more devs don't come on to brave the forums......
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]PWE Web Team is bound for Gre'Thor.....:mad:
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Right on! And now that you guys have apparently embraced re-using maps, you have no excuse for not producing mass quantities of new FEs using existing assets.
The.Grand.Nagus
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Comments
There should not be a huge difference between the style of Ops and the rest of the starbase interior. It reeks of a half-baked product - and while I have no doubt the system itself has been worked on, I'm annoyed that the same level of attention hasn't been paid to interiors, yet again.
Heck, take the one from the Diplomacy missions, or the captains table... seems like a copy paste, and repaint
Seriously, liking what I am seeing, but like others see some room for improvement... the Ops, Sci, and Tac levels really should get some updates... and a conference room would be a great addition. Ceremony room... not a huge fan... I think the ops main area would work for that. Using the empty room (surrounded by glass, accessible via bridge) as your "popdium"
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
that area is the meeting room. just missing the table at tier 0
This doesn't bode well for us ever seeing decent starship interiors either, if they're still reusing the godawful assets from the old ones in "new" projects, just with a couple of consoles shifted around and a new carpet :rolleyes:
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
You want my honest feedback about the Starbase Interiors (from a FED perspective) ? I'll give it to you, with 1 simple word:
LAZYNESS!
The interior of the Ops area looks nice, but could easily be spruced up with more modern looking consoles, such as those seen on the Odyssey bridge, with transparent displays etc.
The interior of the Lower Decks on the other hand, is complete and utter lazyness on the part of the interior designers. To say that they were "recently made" is a slap in the face, to anyone who has played through atleast the Klingon Front (as a Federation player), since atleast one of the Starbase interiors (Tactical map), is largely based off of interior that can be found in atleast 2 different episodes in the game.
Likewise, the Engineering and Science maps leave much to be desired, and I feel need a COMPLETE overhaul, before going forward to Holodeck. So my advice in closing, is to toss the maps in the trash, go back to the drawing board, and this time, get it done properly!!!
EDIT: I apologize if much of what I wrote above has previously already been written. I've posted in alot of threads over the past few days, it's hard to keep track of which ones I already posted in.
Nevertheless, the sentiment still stands...
Oh heck no.... KDF and Feddies getting the same treatment! I call BS... the feddies have 84% of the player base, we should have better, stronger, and more elaborate fleet bases.... i mean... we're the federation... it isn't fair....
Sorry couldnt resist... last thread i was reading was full of whining (from both sides).
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I think that a personal attack on the Developers Character is completely and utterly unwarranted. Do you honestly believe that;
a) the developers control the release cycle -- wrong, that is dictated by corporate... the developers are most likely faced with pressured unrealistic deadlines (mainly due to corporate reacting to the constant whining of the user base on the forums).
b) that if you honestly polled ANY of the developers working on this project, and asked if they WANTED to reuse skins.. that you would get a resounding yes?
c) that the developers do not want to take pride in their work, that they do not want to put out a quality product. Lets not forget their names and reputations (edit and livelihoods) are tied to this game as well. I have yet to meet a developer (and I work with them from all over the world) that does not strive to produce the best product they can. I'll go a step further to say that they take their work PERSONALLY, they put themselves into their work... the bug bothers them... the re-use of a well known skin bothers them... but they have people to answer to as well.
For the love of God people, cut them some freaking slack. First we complain and complain about when are we getting them... I want I want I want... we dump pressure on them as well as corporate PWE, Atari or whomever to produce (if i dont get something new, I'm leaving, I'm canceling my subscription, I'm <insert threat here>)... and produce right now... then they put it out and its not good enough?
Then you have the unmitigated gall to attack their character as a person... if you are not ashamed of yourself, then I am ashamed for you.
It is one thing to offer suggestions (as many did here), it is quite another to level a personal attack against a group of people, that I can only imagine are trying their hardest to provide a quality product, under unrealistic deadlines, with as few bugs as possible.
To the developers; thank you... its obvious to me by reading these forums that you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Thank you for what you do... I love the game, and I love what I see in Season 6... I can't wait for its general release.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
The fact is that Fleet Starbases supposed to be the big part of Season 6 and if its full of reused map assets, of course people will think baddly. They will think that they just threw this together overnight instead of working hard on it for months. After all en par to your average Foundry Mission.
If these change when you get assets upgraded, we don't know. But the way it is now, people can't wonder why these places aren't more spectacular.
For instance, the Infirmery / Sickbay, why doesn't feel like a hospital? Why not have it more like Crusher's Sickbay?
The Tactical Room, it's more like a NORAD Situation Room than a war room. (I actually been in the real thing at MacDill AFB). Have a flat room with some holograms of the Klingon Front on some of the Tables. Maybe a tactical situation around your Starbase with showing Holograms of the Station with the Transwarp Gate, the Shipyard, and the Comm Station?
Engineering.....it could've been more like the lab that Geordi fiddled with Data and his family. Another could have a shuttle being worked on for somekind of Spec Op?
So much potential!
I am not attacking valid suggestions like those you have made here... you are commenting on possible improvements to the maps/skins... as many other have done in this thread.
I am attacking the fact that the poster I was quoting commented the the one word he had was LAZYNESS, that the lack of original skins for the lower levers constituted laziness on the part of the interior design team. Those are direct attacks on the character and integrity of the person, not on the output. Telling them to throw it away, and do it over "and do it properly" is just plain insulting.
I stand by every word I wrote.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I really dislike being called a liar. When I said that they were just made, I meant the entire map. Some areas may be reused, but there is still work that goes into putting them all together.
I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted my words, but please pause and consider your words before you call us lazy or liars.
As for throwing the whole map out, would you prefer that Season 6 be delayed several months so that we can build custom interiors for every floor? Time saved on the lower floors was spent on the entirely CUSTOM upper floor.
ETA: On another note, I find the argument of lazy reuse perplexing. Over the last few months on STO, I've heard numerous times from players that "we have so much already in the game, why do you always have to make brand new things? Why can't we reuse things that already exist, to speed up delivery?!." Then when it happens, we get torn apart for being lazy. . .
Tumerboy, don't take him serious.
Personally here is the feedback from my fleet:
We love the interiors and there is a great detail into the interiors. Sure there are some things that have to be fixed and I think I posted in this thread before. Keep up the great work. :biggrin:
What would the point be in taking all the time to create fully new and custom rooms when really if you haven't noticed every Star Trek series and movie has taken sets and reused or redressed them a million times anyways. Everything the Federation produces is very utilitarian in design and easily replicated in mass quantities, that just translate into this game just like everything else.
Personally I would rather they take assets that already exist, reuse or redress them and then use them to cut down the development time and get some other things changed like reducing the amount of wandering crew in the small deck layout or other things.
I dont think that the release should be delayed. There were some minor bug issues, and some really good ideas for possible UI changes to the donation system, but certainly not for new interiors.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Well, as the Devs know some people are rather ....... too passionate in their comments. Was his comment too much? Perhaps. But you got to see it from their persective as well, that some people think that cutting and pasting to save time makes it look like you're not putting the all as was expected.
To me, this is where I would define that fine line of cutting and pasting.
As you said, they reused Props and Sets all the time, even with CGI they reused models. But the thing is, they rarely kept things exactly as they were, they always tried to make somekind of artistic change so it looked different. This is what Cryptic really should look into.
Reusing assets without anykind of effort to change the appearance = BAD.
Reusing assets and make an attempt to change the apperance = GOOD.
Creation of new assets = GREAT!
So if the Art Team had time, I would say go back and tweek up those sets a little bit.
With the Tactical, get rid of the platform and get rid of the computers in the middle. Add a Tactical Table. Lower the lights. Change the pictures to a more tactical setting.
Engineering, get rid of the office and replace it with a ship hologram. Add the new Odyssey and Defiant displays.
Science, add something like a floating Flower or a Miniature CE in a forcefield.
Easy Taco, don't go extra spicy with that salsa.
Look man, people do understand the reuse of assets. But if you was in our shoes, wouldn't you be somewhat bothered by an obvious reuse of assets? I think people just want to feel like you put somekind of effort into the work.
You know, I think I'll grab the Lackley map right now and do a quick fiddle on the Foundry to show what you could've done.
Start the clock!
Lackey 1
Lackey 2
You should see what I did on my Foundry Mission, it would blow you away.
dude, most of us know you guys work hard and put a lot of effort in. ignore the ones who are rude or just plain ignorant.
sometimes i think the foundry was the worst thing for you guys as it gives people this false impression of what the devs tools are or how real game development is.
Not calling you a liar or anything my view on it is you can't make federation things but so many ways to keep it looking federation. My issue is with the KDF stuff which I am sure based on seeing what you have done is not your work as far as the same old stuff we have that looks like it was done in 5 minutes.
The problem I see is that if you look at what you did first the first interior room for the KDF and then look at what was reused/copy and pasted its a drastic difference. Its kinda the same mentality that was used when going to make KDF bridges to not spend "Too Much Time" because only 18% might even buy them.
All in all when it comes to the way the KDF stuff started out looking and it being reused again it just seems like you may have been better off making it from scratch or redoing those after it launches just so they are there but some kind of indication as a work in progress. Although I do see where they were touched up a little bit but for most part its the way the crates and walls look that irritates me the most.
This isn't even a nerdrage. People here have complaint very reasonably (and it seems you picked out one of the only ones who was actually ranting).
Now this comment I find a bit irritating. I have never really seen a player complaining about new environments. And even if: The Starbases are the next big shiny thing for STO! They will get a lot of attention and people are supposed to very actively use them. How the maps of something so big and game-changing can get less love than the event-only Utopia Planitia is way beyond me.
And this is not complaining about UP at all - that was a very nice, sweet surprise. It just might explain one of the angles were the complaints, disappointment and impression of laziness are coming from. In the last year or so, STO has delivered some very exciting and sleek quality environments. The lower decks don't do them justice and they seem like a huge step back in the wrong direction.
"Sometimes you have to do things that you hate, so you can survive to fight another day."
Now I got the good old Henry Rollins in my head again.
While I'm not really in the loop with STO currently I recall some talk balk in the Foundry is coming days. Customizable interiors using a brick by brick system. Which was 'postponed' for Starbases. Am I right to assume that has been shelved?
sure they do. there have been whole threads on the subject that they should reuse old assets to save time and money.
Yup. I'm one of them.
Look, the tech for custom starbase and ship interiors should be filtering into STO into 6-8 months. I don't see the point of making every map new. I'd rather see modular use of assets and save the splashy new interiors for something other than starbases or ship interiors, which should look fairly uniform and utilitarian.
If we're talking about map work, maybe re-doing the default ship interior decks would be nice.
I think it would be wasteful to put TOTALLY NEW interiors in starbases or missions at this point. Missions have plenty of assets and I'd rather see new assets be modular and designed for reuse. As for the starbase, it looks like a starbase. You'll be customizing over it eventually anyway.
Can't help but to think that remark was directed at me.
I know the Foundry is much different than the Dev tools, I was merely showing what I thought could've been done to make Lackey look different in a short time. Because if they put at least some effort to make it not look like an exact copy and paste job, then people won't be as critical.
not everyone feels that way, dnt let non constructive , mean or nasty people dissueade you from conversing with us
join date: Jan. 2012
It was directed at anyone who thinks the foundry is evidence of how dev tools work.
it is completely irrelevant what you or i or anyone can do in the foundry in a short time or a long time. what you can make in an hour or a day is 100% different to how much they can do because of the complexity of the system and how its all coded together.
these guys are very talented and experienced artists. do you honestly think that someone who can design a room as awesome as the ops centre for both klinks and feds from total scratch, is incapable of any ideas at how to make a lower room look different? or that they can put that much effort into new maps with incredible detail but just became instantly lazy the moment they had to wok on a lower room.
people will always criticise them because they dont understand the process. you or anyone else are perceiving a copy and paste as a lack of effort simply because the process has been confused by their ability to use the foundry.
You may consider it a "personal attack" on the developers, and if so... so be it. I'm done "playing nice" with these devs. I'm just telling it the way I see it, which is that the Starbase Interiors were done out of LAZYNESS, primarily in the Lower Deck areas. And don't tell me otherwise, cause I KNOW that the lower decks are a re-use of existing areas (and then I get told by one of the devs, that it was "just made", which is a blatant lie).
"Cut them some slack", Well... I don't know if you were around for the "Year of Hell" that was 2011, with the playerbase being strung along by empty promises, all the while being left out of the loop on what's ACTUALLY going on. I've given them enough slack over the past 2.5 years, enough is enough really. I've also given them several hundred dollars of my hard-earned cash, I think I deserve atleast some respect from the company whom I am paying the salary for. If it weren't for us, they wouldn't have a salary, and they would be out of a job. Never forget that.
Season 5 was released in early December. That was almost 7 months ago. I'm sure the idea of what Season 6 was suppose to be about, didn't just "pop up" 2 weeks ago. During those 7 months, i'm reasonably certain, a more custom, and less "re-used" design for the lower decks could've been made up.
I'm also fairly certain that a "level designer" would have very little involvement in, for example... systems design (Fleet Starbase functionality). So I wouldn't buy it, that "all our guys are working on x feature".
As for the part calling you out as a liar... Well, you never stated in your original post that "these parts were reused, these parts were brand new, but the whole map was just created recently". You implied the entire thing was made up just recently, including the obvious reuse of the tactical room, and science/medbay room. And it was on THAT part, where I called you out as a liar, since it obviously wasn't "just made" when it already had made an appearance elsewhere.
And yes, I know full well that Star Trek productions often reuse assets. The Prometheus bridge is a reuse of the Enterprise-A bridge for example. But most productions, go to the effort of trying to "mask" that the asset is a reuse. The Tactical Room is virtually identical to it's mission counterpart. That's not masking... that's copying outright.
To your first point, if people misunderstand what you say, and what you say is evidently ambiguous enough that they way the construed it is still justifiable after a second or third reading(which it is), perhaps you should be showing a little contrition rather than acting like people are perpetrating some monstrous injustice upon you?
To your second, this is a poor argument. First, I've not seen the sentiment you described expressed to anywhere near the level your wording suggests(in fact, I've not seen it expressed at all, just the generic "new stuff bad, me want bug fixy fixy" that about 10% of every MMO forum consists of), and second, it's a strawman unless the individual who you are addressing is the person who's been making these statements, and he is not.
Someone quickly jumps in to lick your boots and compares what you're doing here with set redressing in the TV shows, and there are parallels, but only inasmuch as both involve the reuse of assets. If a set designer were to do a redress which was still instantly recognisable as the original set, they would have failed to achieve their sole objective; not just to reuse resources to save time, but to do so in such a way that the reuse is not obvious to the viewer.
There are many parts of STO which reuse other assets, and it only becomes evident on the second or third go through of the content when the player is not so focused on the events at hand, but in the case of these starbase interiors I believe criticising such a blatant reuse of existing locations is absolutely justifiable, most obviously because they are blatant -people have looked at these pictures and immediately discerned exactly what they are and where they were previously used- but also because we're not talking about a mission level here. These interiors are not somewhere we will visit once, perhaps two or three times to get all the loot/try alternative strategies, they are places we will be spending large amounts of time in, yet it is apparent that the same amount of attention has been paid to them as such basic mission content, less even when compared to some content.
Take a moment, and walk around Bajor, Starfleet Academy, DS9, and consider that people are expecting to occupy their fleet base far more than any of those social locations which are full to the brim with unique new assets with some carefully disguised reuse of older assets, and perhaps you will understand why people are unsatisfied with the chaps who did this interior just plonking down three existing locations, changing the carpet, and moving a couple of consoles about.
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
Thank you. Summed it up quite nicely.
(Also, to the person(s) who said, to ignore my comments... Are my dollars any less worth than yours? Does your dollars somehow entitle you to preferential treatment, over my dollars? Pure and utter arrogance.)
I do think that the EXTERIORS are awesome and the MECHANICS are well-designed. The lower decks are not a deal-killer for me and are not enough of an issue to prevent me from being excited about Starbases.
Hopefully, we will be able to unlock newer, better layouts for the lower decks and/or outright customize them with the foundry at some point.
THAT SAID:
What I and others object to strongly is calling an excellent, involved dev like Tumerboy a 'LIAR'. He did not lie, you took him up the wrong way and are now arguing semantics. Tacoface didn't even do the interiors, and yet he is getting grief for trying to respond and give accurate information.
No one likes being insulted or slandered. People wonder why more devs don't come on to brave the forums......
Right on! And now that you guys have apparently embraced re-using maps, you have no excuse for not producing mass quantities of new FEs using existing assets.
The.Grand.Nagus
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