Based on the constant spam of people getting D'Koras and the reportedly stupid low odds of winning, people must be buying a LOT of those damn keys. TBH it's really not surprising they'd be willing to drop entire countries as long as suckers in the USA are buying them. I wonder what would happen if the US would ban these abominations. I bet they'd change their tune in a hurry.
I really don't understand how they can legally get away with NOT telling you the odds of winning various prizes. State run lottery games tell you your odds. Casinos tell you the odds on a game if you ask them (at least in the state I used to live). You're losing real money every time to open a lockbox for $1.25 and get a battery or whatever useless drop you get. These things should be regulated the same way actual gambling is.
I'm not against the c-store in a nominally F2P game...I've even dropped some cash in there myself already only playing for a couple weeks...but I will NEVER buy a key for a lockbox. I wish I could turn off the damn boxes even dropping for me.
They make alot of money from the boxes and keys. Noone is made to open them. The only impact it has on a player is they see the yellow text on screen. I honestly see no reason why they're so controversial, they are easily ignored. I know it can be done because I ignore them.
As for different laws in different countries, so be it. If they have to drop a number of players due to the laws of their country, that's not cryptics fault. They're just trying to make money, this process works.
clearly you don't get it. if you think thats the only impact they have on players you really haven't been paying attention
We'll see what happens. I wonder if it means I'd get my lifetime subscription money back - the game is still in service but I am denied access. Probably not.
if you have a lifetime account and they are unable to provide the service legally that means they can't fulfill their end of the deal, so I don't see how they could refuse a refund
Jeremy (borticus) has no say in this decision. Identifying himself as a dev doesn't make his statements official.
maybe not official but it sure make him and by extension, cryptic, look bad. perception is reality
This is the same reason why collection agencies continue to harass people despite government fines, and why companies continue producing goods and services even though they are in bankruptcy. Borticus statement, from a purely factual perspective, is correct.
we're not talking about a few phonecalls someone isn't supposed to make, nor minor fines. if cryptic was told no more gambling boxes in x area and they tried to get around that they'd be risking major legal action. both by the government and the customers. if not the parents of minors. thats a headache that I know they don't want. to say nothing of the fact that if push comes to shove they can simply be blocked on the ISP level by court order
And no, I do not think Cryptic/PWE/CBS would shut the game down in the EU, as we give them income. Shutting down STO in the EU would give them a lot of negative reputation
eh? well if they get told no lockboxes their choice is to either deny access to those regions where it is illegal or to modify the game so that those people have zero contact in any way with any aspect of the lockboxes. given the way they work i'm not even sure thats possible. they do drop as loot after all. as for reputation...well....they don't exactly have a good one to start with
Keys could still be obtained via the Exchange, theoretically, removing money from the equation for those users. Keys aren't bound
that would still be participating. if you went to vegas as a minor and someone handed you some chips without you paying for them and you hit the blackjack table and got caught. you'd still be gambling illegally because you're a minor
The real question is whether the loopholes would give PW enough plausible deniability
I don't see how. loopholes are for finding ways around not being allowed to do it. plausible deniability implies they had no idea there was anything questionable in the first place. if they tried to convince people of that i'd question their intelligence
It's just business. If the total money from the lockboxes minus the EU is greater than the total money without the lockboxes with the EU, then good bye EU
and hello extremely bad publicity and lawsuits from numerous EU players with lifetime accounts or who paid for cstore items they're being prevented from having access to
You don't speak for all of us. The lockboxes are fine, fun in fact. The constant whinging and wailing on the forums about them, on the other hand, is pathetic and embarassing.
no they aren't fine. and calling people pathetic and embarassing just shows you have no argument. 'fine' things don't get investigated by the attorney general for questionable legality
You would think with the big name games coming out they wouldn't be threatening us in this manner of shut up or we will ban your country... I would love to see them ban the united states that would be amusing. I would be like oh darn... Ok time to play guild wars 2 and not shed a tear.
They're not thretening anything - it's one Dev stating what he thinks teh company would do if such a law came to pass; and that type of reaction is no unusal if what's effectively legislated is the main source of income.
Hell, Blizard almost pulled out of China when taht country legislated 'game time limits' - so it's not the first time stuff like this has happened in the MMO market.
That said, to Borticus - welcome to being a company representative any time you post using a Dev handle known by the public on an internet site, be it official , non-official, etc. The gaming news sites cull material from any internet source they can find; and LOVE any statement that will be seen as contraversial, no matter what context it was posted in. If you want to keep your private comments private, use an incogneto handle. Anything you say as Borticus will be construed as coming from an official STO Dev - no matter how you try to disclaim it.
Sorry, but that not how pwe is operating.
This is not my first pwe game.
Lets look at their flag ship. Perfect world.
New players have to read a book on what allowed and what's not since PWE never fixes bugs unless it's a cash shop item.
"you are not allowed to attack ground mobs from air."
"you are not allowed to pvp in some areas even if it is possible"
"you are not allowed to sell items in the shop unless we tell you it's allowed"
The list goes on and on.
And dont even get me started with the money grab they have over there, not to mention the spam.
Some times of the day you cant play the game because of spam.
This is the road that Star Trek will go down if nothing is done.
Stop outrageous money grab or let the game die while the star trek name still have some dignity.
Most of those are simply rules of play.... what in blazes do they have to do with 'money grabs?'
Is a soccer game a money grab because you can't have as many players as you want on the team or on the field?
I'm quite upset with how this article takes a few comments from a general discussion thread on an unofficial community site, and twists them into some sort of company-mandated business decision. I held Massively to a higher standard than that.
Here are the exact conversation strings, if you'd like to follow along at home: (LINK)
First of all, as I said on my Twitter Feed this morning, I have absolutely no authority within this company to act on my opinions on this particular subject. Nor am I privy to business planning and legal regulations within Cryptic or PWE.
This was just me having a discussion on metaphorical scenarios with a couple of my fleetmates. Nothing more, nothing less.
Secondly, the statements of mine that are quoted above is all that was said. I never said or implied that Cryptic would not care if this metaphorical situation were to come to pass. In fact, quite the opposite, as my original response to Suricata's concerns over gambling were intended to point out that the results of his actions could end up not being to his liking. Because I care that super-fans like him continue to have access to this game.
Ok Im going to put on my "constructive feedback" hat here
Im saddened and disappointed to read this coming form you borticus. It appears to me you have completely forgotten about your roots and about STOked and about the fans and the playerbase of this game completely. Here was me, an avvid Star Trek and STO fan who would sit watching STOked every week as STOked being the number 1 podcast for STO.
Metaphorical or not, you may not have any power or authority but to just sit there and blindly say well worse case scenario is that the game becomes unavailable in that country ? that comes across to me as well really i dont care about the players or the game type attitude. Are you saying if STO got pulled by any country you would be totally happy with that ? it wouldnt bother you in the slightest that the fans and the players of this game got left out in the cold ?
Im not gonna debate the lockboxes issue, but personally speaking when buying the keys it does feel like gambling because cryptic make it so easy to buy c store points via paypal or credit card through just several clicks, whats stopping someone from speanding a ridiculous amount of money in a 24 hour period ? AFAIK there is no limit placed on c store purchases and as such yes the c store/lockboxes does exploit people who are unable to stop spending and "must have" the new shiny.
It strikes me that cryptic/PW have no remorse over the security situation and certainly not over the lockboxes either. What happened to putting stuff into the c store that people want ? before the whole lock box f2p nonsense i was happy with buying stuff out the c store that i felt was worth the money. I look in the c store these days and its just full of rubbish. Nothing noteably worthy of spending c points on has been in there in a long time.
If I was cryptic i would put the lockbox /lobi items into the c store and i guarentee you would make more money that way than shoving it down peoples throats with lockboxes.
Right now I am very disappointed in the game and I dont totally blame you borticus because at least you have the guts to come out on the forums and say what im sure all the devs are thinking.
Based on the constant spam of people getting D'Koras and the reportedly stupid low odds of winning, people must be buying a LOT of those damn keys. TBH it's really not surprising they'd be willing to drop entire countries as long as suckers in the USA are buying them. I wonder what would happen if the US would ban these abominations. I bet they'd change their tune in a hurry.
I really don't understand how they can legally get away with NOT telling you the odds of winning various prizes. State run lottery games tell you your odds. Casinos tell you the odds on a game if you ask them (at least in the state I used to live). You're losing real money every time to open a lockbox for $1.25 and get a battery or whatever useless drop you get. These things should be regulated the same way actual gambling is.
I'm not against the c-store in a nominally F2P game...I've even dropped some cash in there myself already only playing for a couple weeks...but I will NEVER buy a key for a lockbox. I wish I could turn off the damn boxes even dropping for me.
I live in the US and I WANT THEM GONE. To bad we can't ship the people who made them in the boxes too and FedEx it to some desert and call it a Vulcan drop box
Right now I am very disappointed in the game and I dont totally blame you borticus because at least you have the guts to come out on the forums and say what im sure all the devs are thinking.
Not that we're any less angry about it or anything.
Massively really has been quite a cheerleader for STO up until now. They had far more articles about this game than a game with the pop STO has deserved. Just recently there was one suggesting rolling an alt (despite the content being IDENTICAL) was legitimate endgame content. To read people here whining about Massively being unfair, or having some agenda against Cryptic or STO is hilarious.
Most of those are simply rules of play.... what in blazes do they have to do with 'money grabs?'
You're missing the point gimpeline made.
Instead of fixing the bugs (which requires developer time which costs money) they simply update some FAQ (hmmmm... where have I seen that before over here already... perhaps something with a Gold Ferengi Lockbox or so?) and place the burden of following the game's rules on the player instead of making sure the game runs as intended.
If I as a game developer don't want PvP to happen in a specific zone I change the game code so that all avatars that spawn in that zone have their PvP-flag (or whatever) automatically set to false. If I as a game developer don't want players to sell a specific item I update the item's code so that it cannot be sold. If I as a game developer want anything anywhere anyhow in my own frigging game to happen it is my and only my responsibility to make the appropriate changes to the code and database!
Massively really has been quite a cheerleader for STO up until now. They had far more articles about this game than a game with the pop STO has deserved. Just recently there was one suggesting rolling an alt (despite the content being IDENTICAL) was legitimate endgame content. To read people here whining about Massively being unfair, or having some agenda against Cryptic or STO is hilarious.
Yes, I am aware that they've been the official Cryptic mouthpiece up until recently. Hence my comment about liking the NEW Massively.
WoW... I did not realize it was considered that Europe was in such financial trouble that losing them as an entire Market (and maybe Japan) was no big deal. I guess this also shows just how gullible and easily manipulated Americans really are hmm?
You don't speak for all of us. The lockboxes are fine, fun in fact. The constant whinging and wailing on the forums about them, on the other hand, is pathetic and embarassing.
Even if I don't speak for all of us, you're the first person who has defended them, in... well, EVER.
Those that don't complain about the Lock Boxes mostly ignore them. The three most common rage threads (Borg Instakills, rainbow boating, cage of fire) Have all but disappeared! The 5 most active threads are about lock boxes specifically, all of the marathon posts have it mentioned at least once. There is at least one farewell thread every day. Even look at peoples signatures!
Instead of fixing the bugs (which requires developer time which costs money) they simply update some FAQ (hmmmm... where have I seen that before over here already... perhaps something with a Gold Ferengi Lockbox or so?) and place the burden of following the game's rules on the player instead of making sure the game runs as intended.
If I as a game developer don't want PvP to happen in a specific zone I change the game code so that all avatars that spawn in that zone have their PvP-flag (or whatever) automatically set to false. If I as a game developer don't want players to sell a specific item I update the item's code so that it cannot be sold. If I as a game developer want anything anywhere anyhow in my own frigging game to happen it is my and only my responsibility to make the appropriate changes to the code and database!
Some of those are not necessarily bugs though.... z axis combat, for example is often disabled to prevent exploits.
The reality remains. There is finite revenue. If you don't like the product, don't pay for it. These are luxury goods, not necessities. I have trouble with the concept of legislating affordable or 'fair value' entertainment.
Massively really has been quite a cheerleader for STO up until now. They had far more articles about this game than a game with the pop STO has deserved. Just recently there was one suggesting rolling an alt (despite the content being IDENTICAL) was legitimate endgame content. To read people here whining about Massively being unfair, or having some agenda against Cryptic or STO is hilarious.
Some of those are not necessarily bugs though.... z axis combat, for example is often disabled to prevent exploits.
The reality remains. There is finite revenue. If you don't like the product, don't pay for it. These are luxury goods, not necessities. I have trouble with the concept of legislating affordable or 'fair value' entertainment.
Problem is, they don't disable it,PWE's policy is that they just update the FAQ. It's cheaper.
I like the product. I don't like the scam
And stop paying?
I'm a lifer
if you have a lifetime account and they are unable to provide the service legally that means they can't fulfill their end of the deal, so I don't see how they could refuse a refund
Good luck enforcing that. The lifetime accounts are contingent on the following clause: "We make no explicit or implicit warranties on the service period of the game."
They are not obligated to continue to provide service regardless of profitability or lack thereof.
So what I don't get is that everyone seems to think that Lock boxes are making them a ton of money.
Where is the evidence of this?
All I am hearing from Cryptic and the player base is that Lock boxes are a gold mine to Cryptic.
So a company that for nearly 2 years tells us we are doing great and subs are doing well and F2P is way off, then Boomshanka, F2P is announced, no cups in the kitchen and broken computer.
The EP tells us he is playing the latest FE then Boomshanka, the new EP doesn't even know what the old EP is talking about.
The Old EP comes back and tells us the PW wants a fully fleshed KDF and a fully working PVP, Boomshanka, sorry only told you one part of the story.
Cryptic has and still does, has a proven record of lying to us at a drop of a hat to keep us around. Why do we take them at face value that lock boxes are making them a ton of money?
Didn't a dev even go into the exchange and try to buy all the gold boxes, thus effecting the economy?
These aren't the things of a company where everything is gravy...
Content is on hiatus, only 1 dev free to revamp PVP, gated future content and the foundry being pushed to make story content.
This does not sound like a company making a profit. It sounds like a tin pot company trying to survive and not doing a good job of it.
Dooomm... Yep, I said it and I really do believe it this time...
I don't care how you try and spin it. They don't reveal the odds of getting a decent prize because it would make us more angry apparantly. And the majority of prizes are things I already have (tribble) cannot use (xp boost at VA) or is literally worthless (looking at you batteries)
Not a lot to love is there.
I'm not spinning it, I'm simply saying people have no obligation to open them. I'll admit they do pray to people who are suseptical to these kinds of things, but a fool and his money are easily parted.
I'm not defending them either, I don't particularly like them, but I decided not to do them.
we're not talking about a few phonecalls someone isn't supposed to make, nor minor fines. if cryptic was told no more gambling boxes in x area and they tried to get around that they'd be risking major legal action. both by the government and the customers. if not the parents of minors. thats a headache that I know they don't want. to say nothing of the fact that if push comes to shove they can simply be blocked on the ISP level by court order
If lock boxes are banned in a region / country, Cryptic will look at the revenue impact this will have and will take the option that keeps them to most profitable. I agree with Borticus' statement - there is a good possibility that blocking a region full of free players who bring in a handful of cash will be a better option than removing a key revenue generator.
This is the same type decision companies across the world and in all types of business make. Often the best option is not the popular one.
You don't speak for all of us. The lockboxes are fine, fun in fact. The constant whinging and wailing on the forums about them, on the other hand, is pathetic and embarassing.
ummmm..... we must be playing on different servers (lol) because all I ever see in game is constant complaints in chat. I mean for months now.
The only people who dont seem to have issue with them are players who are always "playing the market"... all they care about are selling keys or cp's or ships. everything added to the game is just a new opportunity for them to find a new way to rip people off and be on the cusp of a bubble.
Comments
I really don't understand how they can legally get away with NOT telling you the odds of winning various prizes. State run lottery games tell you your odds. Casinos tell you the odds on a game if you ask them (at least in the state I used to live). You're losing real money every time to open a lockbox for $1.25 and get a battery or whatever useless drop you get. These things should be regulated the same way actual gambling is.
I'm not against the c-store in a nominally F2P game...I've even dropped some cash in there myself already only playing for a couple weeks...but I will NEVER buy a key for a lockbox. I wish I could turn off the damn boxes even dropping for me.
clearly you don't get it. if you think thats the only impact they have on players you really haven't been paying attention
if you have a lifetime account and they are unable to provide the service legally that means they can't fulfill their end of the deal, so I don't see how they could refuse a refund
maybe not official but it sure make him and by extension, cryptic, look bad. perception is reality
we're not talking about a few phonecalls someone isn't supposed to make, nor minor fines. if cryptic was told no more gambling boxes in x area and they tried to get around that they'd be risking major legal action. both by the government and the customers. if not the parents of minors. thats a headache that I know they don't want. to say nothing of the fact that if push comes to shove they can simply be blocked on the ISP level by court order
eh? well if they get told no lockboxes their choice is to either deny access to those regions where it is illegal or to modify the game so that those people have zero contact in any way with any aspect of the lockboxes. given the way they work i'm not even sure thats possible. they do drop as loot after all. as for reputation...well....they don't exactly have a good one to start with
that would still be participating. if you went to vegas as a minor and someone handed you some chips without you paying for them and you hit the blackjack table and got caught. you'd still be gambling illegally because you're a minor
I don't see how. loopholes are for finding ways around not being allowed to do it. plausible deniability implies they had no idea there was anything questionable in the first place. if they tried to convince people of that i'd question their intelligence
and hello extremely bad publicity and lawsuits from numerous EU players with lifetime accounts or who paid for cstore items they're being prevented from having access to
no they aren't fine. and calling people pathetic and embarassing just shows you have no argument. 'fine' things don't get investigated by the attorney general for questionable legality
They're not thretening anything - it's one Dev stating what he thinks teh company would do if such a law came to pass; and that type of reaction is no unusal if what's effectively legislated is the main source of income.
Hell, Blizard almost pulled out of China when taht country legislated 'game time limits' - so it's not the first time stuff like this has happened in the MMO market.
That said, to Borticus - welcome to being a company representative any time you post using a Dev handle known by the public on an internet site, be it official , non-official, etc. The gaming news sites cull material from any internet source they can find; and LOVE any statement that will be seen as contraversial, no matter what context it was posted in. If you want to keep your private comments private, use an incogneto handle. Anything you say as Borticus will be construed as coming from an official STO Dev - no matter how you try to disclaim it.
Most of those are simply rules of play.... what in blazes do they have to do with 'money grabs?'
Is a soccer game a money grab because you can't have as many players as you want on the team or on the field?
Ok Im going to put on my "constructive feedback" hat here
Im saddened and disappointed to read this coming form you borticus. It appears to me you have completely forgotten about your roots and about STOked and about the fans and the playerbase of this game completely. Here was me, an avvid Star Trek and STO fan who would sit watching STOked every week as STOked being the number 1 podcast for STO.
Metaphorical or not, you may not have any power or authority but to just sit there and blindly say well worse case scenario is that the game becomes unavailable in that country ? that comes across to me as well really i dont care about the players or the game type attitude. Are you saying if STO got pulled by any country you would be totally happy with that ? it wouldnt bother you in the slightest that the fans and the players of this game got left out in the cold ?
Im not gonna debate the lockboxes issue, but personally speaking when buying the keys it does feel like gambling because cryptic make it so easy to buy c store points via paypal or credit card through just several clicks, whats stopping someone from speanding a ridiculous amount of money in a 24 hour period ? AFAIK there is no limit placed on c store purchases and as such yes the c store/lockboxes does exploit people who are unable to stop spending and "must have" the new shiny.
It strikes me that cryptic/PW have no remorse over the security situation and certainly not over the lockboxes either. What happened to putting stuff into the c store that people want ? before the whole lock box f2p nonsense i was happy with buying stuff out the c store that i felt was worth the money. I look in the c store these days and its just full of rubbish. Nothing noteably worthy of spending c points on has been in there in a long time.
If I was cryptic i would put the lockbox /lobi items into the c store and i guarentee you would make more money that way than shoving it down peoples throats with lockboxes.
Right now I am very disappointed in the game and I dont totally blame you borticus because at least you have the guts to come out on the forums and say what im sure all the devs are thinking.
I am really liking the new Massively.
I SALUTE YOU SIR.
Enjoy this post, it may not last long.
I live in the US and I WANT THEM GONE. To bad we can't ship the people who made them in the boxes too and FedEx it to some desert and call it a Vulcan drop box
Not that we're any less angry about it or anything.
Massively really has been quite a cheerleader for STO up until now. They had far more articles about this game than a game with the pop STO has deserved. Just recently there was one suggesting rolling an alt (despite the content being IDENTICAL) was legitimate endgame content. To read people here whining about Massively being unfair, or having some agenda against Cryptic or STO is hilarious.
Hehe, yeah, even thoug they got their jemmy for free (remember? press didn't have to buy 150 red boxes)
Instead of fixing the bugs (which requires developer time which costs money) they simply update some FAQ (hmmmm... where have I seen that before over here already... perhaps something with a Gold Ferengi Lockbox or so?) and place the burden of following the game's rules on the player instead of making sure the game runs as intended.
If I as a game developer don't want PvP to happen in a specific zone I change the game code so that all avatars that spawn in that zone have their PvP-flag (or whatever) automatically set to false. If I as a game developer don't want players to sell a specific item I update the item's code so that it cannot be sold. If I as a game developer want anything anywhere anyhow in my own frigging game to happen it is my and only my responsibility to make the appropriate changes to the code and database!
Yes, I am aware that they've been the official Cryptic mouthpiece up until recently. Hence my comment about liking the NEW Massively.
Even if I don't speak for all of us, you're the first person who has defended them, in... well, EVER.
Those that don't complain about the Lock Boxes mostly ignore them. The three most common rage threads (Borg Instakills, rainbow boating, cage of fire) Have all but disappeared! The 5 most active threads are about lock boxes specifically, all of the marathon posts have it mentioned at least once. There is at least one farewell thread every day. Even look at peoples signatures!
This IS a problem and a big one too!
Some of those are not necessarily bugs though.... z axis combat, for example is often disabled to prevent exploits.
The reality remains. There is finite revenue. If you don't like the product, don't pay for it. These are luxury goods, not necessities. I have trouble with the concept of legislating affordable or 'fair value' entertainment.
hilarious and sad at the same time.
Problem is, they don't disable it,PWE's policy is that they just update the FAQ. It's cheaper.
I like the product. I don't like the scam
And stop paying?
I'm a lifer
Good luck enforcing that. The lifetime accounts are contingent on the following clause: "We make no explicit or implicit warranties on the service period of the game."
They are not obligated to continue to provide service regardless of profitability or lack thereof.
Where is the evidence of this?
All I am hearing from Cryptic and the player base is that Lock boxes are a gold mine to Cryptic.
So a company that for nearly 2 years tells us we are doing great and subs are doing well and F2P is way off, then Boomshanka, F2P is announced, no cups in the kitchen and broken computer.
The EP tells us he is playing the latest FE then Boomshanka, the new EP doesn't even know what the old EP is talking about.
The Old EP comes back and tells us the PW wants a fully fleshed KDF and a fully working PVP, Boomshanka, sorry only told you one part of the story.
Cryptic has and still does, has a proven record of lying to us at a drop of a hat to keep us around. Why do we take them at face value that lock boxes are making them a ton of money?
Didn't a dev even go into the exchange and try to buy all the gold boxes, thus effecting the economy?
These aren't the things of a company where everything is gravy...
Content is on hiatus, only 1 dev free to revamp PVP, gated future content and the foundry being pushed to make story content.
This does not sound like a company making a profit. It sounds like a tin pot company trying to survive and not doing a good job of it.
Dooomm... Yep, I said it and I really do believe it this time...
If it does not work, it is effectively disabled. I am not sure the distinction...
Care to say how you know they are a very hard working team?
I don't see any evidence of it.
I'm not spinning it, I'm simply saying people have no obligation to open them. I'll admit they do pray to people who are suseptical to these kinds of things, but a fool and his money are easily parted.
I'm not defending them either, I don't particularly like them, but I decided not to do them.
Not supriced
If lock boxes are banned in a region / country, Cryptic will look at the revenue impact this will have and will take the option that keeps them to most profitable. I agree with Borticus' statement - there is a good possibility that blocking a region full of free players who bring in a handful of cash will be a better option than removing a key revenue generator.
This is the same type decision companies across the world and in all types of business make. Often the best option is not the popular one.
ummmm..... we must be playing on different servers (lol) because all I ever see in game is constant complaints in chat. I mean for months now.
The only people who dont seem to have issue with them are players who are always "playing the market"... all they care about are selling keys or cp's or ships. everything added to the game is just a new opportunity for them to find a new way to rip people off and be on the cusp of a bubble.
Errrrr wtf