I've said it before, but it can't be repeated too much...
If we want pvp to survive in STO, we have to adapt it to casual players!
Look at how it is in PvP for a casual player now:
- You go in against enemies that are potentially insanely OP. Like going into a STF in a shuttle when you're level one!
- There are no good rewards (except a little dilithium). Even crappy explore missions give better item rewards.
- There is no way of easing into it. Being careful will not help you.
- There is no "storyline" reason to do the pvp missions.
- There is no variation in how the mission progresses, only in enemy behaviour.
Now think about this: If the above could be said about a PvE aspect of the game, would anyone do it?
Based on this, I would say:
- PvP needs rewards. Good ones!
- PvP has to be split up in difficulties. Arenas like we have them today in the tough end of the scale, something much softer in the other end. Give new players a chance to participate!
- PvP needs some storyline reason to it.
- PvP needs more varied content.
- PvP needs careful skill balancing.
btw: thank you Gozer for giving us the straight story rather than spoonfeeding us false expectations. And remember that PvP makes STO a more full game. Even in times when I did not do much PvP, knowing that I COULD do PvP made me feel like I had more varied options.
umm no. Lets just invite ALL the PvP'rs and not get picky there Suricata. While I stop major PVP'ing a while back simply because I did not die unless it was 4-5 on 1, it does not mean I do not go into PVP after each major patch and do some testing.
I think you are reading too much into what I'm saying, the point I was trying to make was to ensure the PVP community is involved in it's testing, preferably on a dedicated test server for these changes. It is sometimes easier to apprach guilds as they have an internal communication system in place to contact all thier members, making it easier to get a number of people quickly, this wasn't meant to mean that I didn't think they should not take people not in PvP guilds as well
I think you are reading too much into what I'm saying, the point I was trying to make was to ensure the PVP community is involved in it's testing, preferably on a dedicated test server for these changes. It is sometimes easier to apprach guilds as they have an internal communication system in place to contact all thier members, making it easier to get a number of people quickly, this wasn't meant to mean that I didn't think they should not take people not in PvP guilds as well
Actually I kind of like the idea of excluding non pvp guilds for this.
PvE guilds are infamously bad at pvp. So much so that their reputation for being poor at it, has gone beyond STO as an example of how to not pvp. They often not only get mechanics wrong, but couldn't be more wrong in their assessment had they been paid to be such.
For example, a common gripe from PvE guilds is Escorts are overpowered.... Despite the fact that no serious premade would take 5 escorts into the ques, if they were expecting real competition... Because Escorts fall horribly short in terms of performance, especially when you start adding more and more of them into the equation.
To say nothing of the commonly egregious Math errors, and horrible ship builds they bring along and their willingness to defend their builds as being "great! you're just clearly cheating" when they get rolled over.
Can PvP be saved? Sure. But can PvP be saved without diverting much needed resources from PvE, Endgame, etc.? No.
PvP needs to die, for the sake of the rest of the game.
with what good part of sto player will be gone and pve is fine as is sure there needs end game love but overall imo it is fine to the point of doing this much needed fix.
I've said it before, but it can't be repeated too much...
If we want pvp to survive in STO, we have to adapt it to casual players!
Look at how it is in PvP for a casual player now:
- You go in against enemies that are potentially insanely OP. Like going into a STF in a shuttle when you're level one!
- There are no good rewards (except a little dilithium). Even crappy explore missions give better item rewards.
- There is no way of easing into it. Being careful will not help you.
- There is no "storyline" reason to do the pvp missions.
- There is no variation in how the mission progresses, only in enemy behaviour.
Now think about this: If the above could be said about a PvE aspect of the game, would anyone do it?
Based on this, I would say:
- PvP needs rewards. Good ones!
- PvP has to be split up in difficulties. Arenas like we have them today in the tough end of the scale, something much softer in the other end. Give new players a chance to participate!
- PvP needs some storyline reason to it.
- PvP needs more varied content.
- PvP needs careful skill balancing.
btw: thank you Gozer for giving us the straight story rather than spoonfeeding us false expectations. And remember that PvP makes STO a more full game. Even in times when I did not do much PvP, knowing that I COULD do PvP made me feel like I had more varied options.
how do u know the casual players dont pvp, i am one of them and yes i do pvp. Pvp is not only for the people whop r on 90% of the time. this is pvp not pve and putting pve element like kerrat is a good idea but no go on the storyline imo.
- PvP needs rewards. Good ones!
- PvP has to be split up in difficulties. Arenas like we have them today in the tough end of the scale, something much softer in the other end. Give new players a chance to participate!
- PvP needs some storyline reason to it.
- PvP needs more varied content.
- PvP needs careful skill balancing.
Could we just all copy, paste, and post the above until next weeks thread?
I for one would quit the game if PvP was removed. Far from focusing on it as we where lead to believe, the idea that your thinking about turning off the lifesupport on top of all the lock box TRIBBLE and lack of content is really depressing.
First off i'd like to thank Gozer for being so blunt and to the point in his OP.... this is what we need, a no Bull s**t this is how it is mind set...
As for My pvp pedagree i have a large pvp gaming background using meny different pvp systems and game types, Ex. top 3k all time best pvp'ers in Eve Online was under 2k before i when afk... 2k+ elo in LOL and was ranked in the top 5k BF3 so yes i have worked with different pvp gaming systems. and this is just a short list...
Anyways STO imo has alot going for it and for a 'young' MMO 2 years or so, i think it is now just finding its feet in meny ways and the work done this year will set out its future... now we all know what is wrong with pvp so lets no dwell on all that.
What i have found in meny games pvp systems is one of the key things is a soild meta game for players to get in to ... STO has this for the most part but as with anything can have stuff added too, and updated but all in all is in good shape.
As for content ie... the raw bones of a pvp system in STO if we are to remake it, it needs (what i would do if i was incharge of dev side pvp revamp)
*** Game modes:
*last man standing/king of the hill... say 10 or 20 players, a point system for not getting killed and or killing
*attack/defend 2 round match so both teams do both tasks. (starbase/convoy/strat base ect)
*5v5 3v3 1v1 queues
*cap and hold is a vaild game mode like what we have now.
*cap the flag. 1 base each and 1-2 flags that need to be taken back to each base. team play would be needed ie. 3 defend and 2 go get the flags ect .
*some sort of system that would allow us to make torneys
*Fleet starbases ( yes these are coming but how much of it will be used in pvp we do not know however if say: 10vs10 or even 20vs20 12th fleet attacks jupiter forces starbase and the winner wins resources for starbase upgrades ect. this would be awesome! also a starbase for the role players ect that is non pvp. But i'd like to see the pvp side of it come in to play also.
*** more (2-5) open pvp zones that do not have a timer/forced task like ker'ret. the player base is crying out for this imo. some starter assests are even in game for this... like OP gamma mission map, have the roids with the swarmers some sort of minerble resource added to them and thats it !! And then anything goes.. have a damage/kills board like in a normal pvp match but no reset timer and just let it play out... this would be full of win and is just a few of meny ideas i have for a solid pvp revamp for this game
Also a leaderboard and ranking system that could be viewed publicly would go along way in its self to pull in pvp player base... its human nature to want to be the best and or beat others in live combat/bragging rights and all that good stuff, this in its self would drive players to think more about play styles and fits and on a side note there would be a large influx of the pvp player base spending more on c-store ships and items to rank up on the boards and get every edge in that quest for the top spots.. you could do it on a 6 month basis so best of the best/XYZ amount of kills/wins/losses/damage ect, gets accolades titles and trophies or some sort of ingame reward for completing a 6 month season in the top spots... you could also do team rankings and then once the 6month season is over the boards all reset... very much like League of legends does ! this is a winning system... very simple and very effective at keeping players interested and making the player base grow. all this talk about end game content if cryptic was to really embrace pvp you could tap in to an untold amount of new and old players and in a rota 6 month quest for ranking/accolades/trophies and leaderboards it would keep players interested year in year out, and would pay for its self in terms of all the c-points being spent. cryptic could even Host a torney for 5v5 teams that had the top ranking spots for season champ and lay out prizes for said winner and runner ups... im telling you know if this was put in to the game it would put STO at the forefront of mmo pvp !!! and my days would make the pvp player base so large that you would be shocked. with the right amount of RP on cryptics side this could be Epic... even E-Sports comps ect.
You could even set up a foundry comp for the player base to design 1 or more of the new revamp pvp maps and the winners have them used in the live revamp.
The point is Gozer your not alone and your not the only asset... you have us ! and yes we all have our rants on these forums but its only cus we want this game to do well and progress.
please feel free to use any of the above info/ideas as you see fit, and if you need anything else from me my mail box is always open
Hello.
My suggestions for a successful PVP environment, as other players have already said, would be (in this order):
1. Ranking system - to get more people to PVP; if there's nothing to brag about people are not interested in PVP; also PUBLIC SPECS/STATS would help/give clues to new players how to start pvp;
2. Matchmaking system (see WoW Arena) - to give time to newbies to learn the PVP environment, aka you have 0-1000 PVP ranking points you get the 1st tier PVP players, 1000-2000 - 2nd tier, 2000-3000 3rd tier;
3. Rewards - special PVP rewards/currency that can be exchanged for PVE stuff aswell: weapons, equipment, rare and very rare equipment, doffs, etc.;
4. Cheaper (maybe free) re-spec tokens: this way people can experiment a lot more with builds and team setups;
5. Contests: every week, every month, every six months, etc... something to get the people interested in learning PVP.
PVP is for me the reason why I started this game. After quite a few years in WoW I realized that the only reason for anyone to play a MMO(RP)G is going against the human factor.
In PVE you kill bosses, go to special events, you do everything you can do (with 5, 10, 15 characters - you name it) and in the end the boredom settles. The AI is still limited.
On the other hand, PVP is UNPREDICTABLE (and I think I say EVERYTHING when I use this word). The best part is when you see a player transform from a total noob to a perfect player. PVP brings quality to any game. Quality = more players = more money (for Cryptic).
PVP players seldom fail in PVE (we all know that is a general truth).
Again, the general ideas for a successful PVP environment are already out there. You guys at Cryptic should just check them out.
Isnt pvp already tiered in difficulty? PvP at LT. Lt.Cmdr Cmdr Capt RA VA ? Isnt it that most are just so taken in by the "story" and blinded by being awesome against npc's that they dont till they are disadvantaged.
decided against edit.
I think you are reading too much into what I'm saying, the point I was trying to make was to ensure the PVP community is involved in it's testing, preferably on a dedicated test server for these changes. It is sometimes easier to apprach guilds as they have an internal communication system in place to contact all thier members, making it easier to get a number of people quickly, this wasn't meant to mean that I didn't think they should not take people not in PvP guilds as well
Hey could be neighbor. i am human, thus I do make mistakes.
Thanks for the clarification. While I have been in large PVP fleets, and small ones, many of us keep in touch with each other on the PVP and know each other. I just did not want someone to cry "elitism" there on that, which would be the wrong assumption on their part.
Actually I kind of like the idea of excluding non pvp guilds for this.
PvE guilds are infamously bad at pvp. So much so that their reputation for being poor at it, has gone beyond STO as an example of how to not pvp. They often not only get mechanics wrong, but couldn't be more wrong in their assessment had they been paid to be such.
For example, a common gripe from PvE guilds is Escorts are overpowered.... Despite the fact that no serious premade would take 5 escorts into the ques, if they were expecting real competition... Because Escorts fall horribly short in terms of performance, especially when you start adding more and more of them into the equation.
To say nothing of the commonly egregious Math errors, and horrible ship builds they bring along and their willingness to defend their builds as being "great! you're just clearly cheating" when they get rolled over.
Case in point. lets not distinguish team or even go there, leave it alone, lay the weapon down and just walk away. Lets stick to the topic, fixing pvp.
Case in point. lets not distinguish team or even go there, leave it alone, lay the weapon down and just walk away. Lets stick to the topic, fixing pvp.
I would have to agree. Also I think we need these non-pvp fleet. Why?
Who do you think he is trying to make play pvp? It aint us. Its "them" aka me. As I'm in a you can only belong to one fleet "fleet" and it is primarily PvE.
Screams "Effin PVE'rs" Listens to silence in ts3 "TRIBBLE" ummm " Effin PvE'rs Stealing my epic Lutz" hahahah youre funny man.
But in all seriousness Lets not create this rift as A major part of this "initiative" is to try and bridge the gap between PvE only and PvP only.
My point is, you want more knowledgeable players than players that well... take boarding party to pvp. Because people with little to no knowledge will tend to give bad advice, feedback and suggestions.
There are big changes coming to PVP, some I think you are going to like, others no so much because no one likes change. Some are not going to make a whole lot of sense at the time because you wont be seeing the whole long term plan I have in store for PVP over the course of the next year or so.
There will not be KDF vs FED only queues.
There will not be FED vs FED only queues.
There will not be KDF vs KDF only queues.
There will just be... PVP queues, period.
Jeezum crow, scared the heck out of me. I had visions of the two factions being completely split up. Good to know you're going this way.
During the first year of STO I PVP'ed like no-ones business. In fact, I went from around Level 30 or 40, just PVPing. It wasn't that it was super fun, it was just something to do as I was a little burnt out on PVE at the time. These days, the only PVP I do is against my partner and the problem with that is we're evenly matched now that I've been coaching her.
So, currently when I PVP, it's 1 vs 1 for around 20 minutes without someone making a kill until one of us concedes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, we get some laughs and some tense moments, its just that neither of us can turn the tide in a big way.
Not sure where I'm going with this. I'd be sad to see PVP go, but I'd probably be sadder to see it get stale and neglected. Like those Easter Eggs in my pantry.
I would like to see some sort of PVP flag though, I always enjoyed that in SWG (Don't hate me); but I get the feeling that wouldn't really work that well in sector space, it'd be like being pulled into those space encounters.
Jeezum crow, scared the heck out of me. I had visions of the two factions being completely split up. Good to know you're going this way.
During the first year of STO I PVP'ed like no-ones business. In fact, I went from around Level 30 or 40, just PVPing. It wasn't that it was super fun, it was just something to do as I was a little burnt out on PVE at the time. These days, the only PVP I do is against my partner and the problem with that is we're evenly matched now that I've been coaching her.
So, currently when I PVP, it's 1 vs 1 for around 20 minutes without someone making a kill until one of us concedes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, we get some laughs and some tense moments, its just that neither of us can turn the tide in a big way.
Not sure where I'm going with this. I'd be sad to see PVP go, but I'd probably be sadder to see it get stale and neglected. Like those Easter Eggs in my pantry.
I would like to see some sort of PVP flag though, I always enjoyed that in SWG (Don't hate me); but I get the feeling that wouldn't really work that well in sector space, it'd be like being pulled into those space encounters.
I fly a Defiant Refit (Retrofit? I get them confused, the level 50 Defiant) and she flies a Multi Vector Assault. I'm fully loaded with three AntiProton dual heavy cannon on the front with a torp launcher, and all turrets on the back.
She's got two beams on the back and a turret, with two dual heavy cannon on the front with a beam and torp. My problem is, those flipping science BO's. She's got three shield buff abilities that I have all sorts of trouble punching though and keeping down. Basically, we'll be able to peel the shields off each other, but each are able to heal as quick as we can damage.
And don't get me started on the Antimatter spread!
In a way I'm not too thrilled about the changes to the PvP queue system. To me, it seems like it's further diminishing the KDF as a faction.
Personally, I think Gozer needs to focus on two things: Balancing and Territorial PvP.
With Balancing, I honestly believe that tons of this could be solved by a 2-value system, where all powers and abilities have a PvP value and a PvE value. That way if something is OP or UP one one side, it can be adjusted without hurting the other side. A good example is what's happened to Science over the years.
With Territorial PvP, I guarantee you that the PvP population would increase with this to the point that you making cross-faction PvP queues would be wasted.
Space maps with Open PvP, where people can fight anytime. Just put it over worlds, give somekind of PvP warning, add some hazards / aids, some map goals (for purpose), and presto.
Ground maps, have people fight their way through Space PvP to the planet to beam down in factional camps, add some goals and hazzards you have in war zone maps (like turrets and mortor fire that actually do damage), and there you go.
Do this for dozens of worlds (which wouldn't hurt PvErs since you could select to enter the PvE mission or enter the PvP map).
That's all you need to do, Gozer.
Well that's my personal opinion on the matter at least.
I play Star Trek Online in order to live in the Star Trek universe as my own captain. STO is right now the only thing that makes the Prime timeline still live.
STFs represent a joining of Starfleet and KDF volunteers to join forces and show a unified front against the Borg. This makes STFs a part of the story-experience of the game, even though the eight different scenarios can get repetitive.
PvP represented the conflict that was ignited between the Federation and the Klingon Empire over the manipulation of the Undine, a growing lack of cooperation between the KDF and the Feds, some paranoia and other disagreements on how to act against the Undine and the other problems happening in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Though Fed vs. Fed was added, those were labelled as wargames, so it kept the idea of a player-participative war-effort between Starfleet and the KDF alive.
Stray from that, and it is my feeling that PvP will matter even less in my eyes - a unified queue is going to do that, unless the Empire suddenly becomes buddy-buddy with the Federation once again and start wargame exercises. If you cannot rise up to that, I'd rather PvP being taken out, simply because it won't be about Star Trek anymore.
I want PvP to have a stake in the world of STO, and be one of the many ways I can live stories in that settings, and experience great Star Trek moments. Spock's blurb when going into Eta Eridani puts it rather compellingly - it'd be ideal if STO could live up to that promise. That some difference can indeed be made. Some effort in that direction had been attempted in the past with Open PvP freighter-related skirmishes... but that seems to have been dropped. That's a shame, because it seemed like a step in the right direction.
Guild Wars 2 seems to adhere to an event structure where success or failure provides escalation in the setting, in one direction, or the other. Tracked PvP objectives could in the same fashion offer a mobile warfront where star systems change hands, and where mission venues would change depending on whom has the upper hand. Including this in a PvPvE fashion similar to Aion's abyss would allow people less inclined toward PvP to still participate, find some way of contributing and be consentually inclined in Open PvP areas - and thus exposed to it as much as they'd like while having a low bar of entry.
Outcomes and rewards should be able to affect the broader economy. I don't think any special store is needed so much as introducing elements which would make the whole playerbase care, to a lesser or greater degree, about success in PvP. A bonus to dillithium-earning rates, finding dilithium materials as combat salvage, healthier economy through lower EC prices from NPC vendors and Exchange purchases.
I am a casual pve player mostly. I have played many MMOs and participated in the pvp side of them including but not limited to EQ, WoW, Warhammer, DaoC, and EVE. I also play League of Legends a ton. This is just to give you an idea of the various pvp systems I have experienced.
I personally feel the correct action would be to remove PvP and not waste time or resources on it, that is just my 2 cents. With that out of the way here are my suggestions on the big 3 things that need changing to make pvp interesting and engaging to me.
1) Incentives and Rewards
Right now there is little reason to pvp other than if you enjoy it. This is bad, you want pvp to be a self sufficient part of the game with the reward system. By that I mean you should not have to grind out pve to have the top or near top end pvp gear. Best way to fix this without adding new currencies would be to establish a PvP Exp system similar to the doff reward system. Each pvp match you do gives you the exp, more exp 'ranks' you complete the better gear you can purchase for dilithium from the pvp store. This should include, but not be limited to, new sets that rival the STF ones for pvp, weapons, consumables, doffs, boffs, etc.
2) Systems and Mechanics
Right now PvP is so incredibly boring to me. There are a handful of mechanics that are at fault for this.
a) Too much sustain. My escorts can heal themselves to full in less than a minute and a half. Zombie cruisers are annoying as all get out. The amount of potential healing in this game is causing major problems. Simple fix? -50% all shield and hull regen and heals debuff applied during PvP.
b) Spike damage/Alpha strikes can lead to one shots or very quick kills. I know this seems contrary to the sustain problem but it is not. Sustain = overtime, buffer = vs alpha strikes. Sustain is too high and buffer is too low simply put. Simple solution would either be a hull/shield HP buff applied, or a crit debuff applied.
c) Hard counters are TOXIC to pvp. The main reason boarding parties are bad is tac team. Sub Nuc Beam makes sci team required in pvp. This is a much more difficult thing to fix but it does need to be addressed in some fashion or pvp will never become casual friendly nor will boff powers be remotely balanced as far as desirability goes.
3) Matchmaking and Rankings
There needs to be a ranking or elo system put into place. This will allow the pros to fight pros and the casuals to fight the casuals. When someone PvPs for the first time and shoots at a target for five minutes and it doesn't die and then has an enemy escort burn them down from full in under six seconds the odds of them enjoying the experience is extremely low.
Misc Ideas
PvP Event hour with increased rewards would be nice.
Map/Type inflation is a danger
Predictable time limits on pvp matchs would be nice
More interactive maps would be nice. Perhaps friendly towers that can be repaired, reinforcements that appear, random debuff nebulas, borg cube randomly attacking, etc.
I really like this idea, suddenly PVP turns into a mix of kill the Borg and other team. You could choose to work together or just have an all out brawl. Though, not sure if that's what you'd be looking for in a pure PVP match. Good idea for another event though!
If the removal of faction to faction PVP is to be removed, I'd propose that they simply end the war between the Feds and KDF and open up all the Fed missions and space to the KDF as well. I'd also open up the KDF as a playable faction from lvl 0 and sort out a tutorial for them. If the dev team does not have the resources to make 2 distinct factiosn, surely it is easier to end the war and develop content that is used by both. PvP would then be just labled as holographic wargames or something. This is all for the changes to make sence storyline wise ofcourse and to actually allow the KDF faction to grow in size, something the lvl 20 unlock does nothing to help!
As for some of the fundemental issues of PvP, I think the biggest issue is the changes that have been made the NPC difficulty and leveling speeds. Back in beta, space combat was far slower and a battle with a battleship could take a few minutes, what skills you used made a difference to the fight and you had to plan tactics for taking enemies down. However, as NPC's were made so much easier to kill, it furthered the gap between PvP and PvE. A problem to me is (space wise atleast) that the combat was made so fast paced that is gives the player very little time to react in PvP.
Also I deplore the queue system and still believe it is broken somehow. The time I have to wait for PvE and PvP content sometimes makes no sence. I miss the days where I could enter Fleet Actions without having to queue and I think this is an issue for PvP as well somewhat. I'm sure merging all the queues will help this somewhat though.
I'll admit I don't really PvP that much, I used to back at the games launch on my KDF captain, but I just don't find it fun, I think maybe it's because the game feels so instanced as well (another fundemental issue). What I'd love is very large sector space maps with open PvP that players can enter. Maybe the Fleet Starbases in season 6 can be brought into all of this? Let PvP fleets have starbases in the neutral zone that can be attacked and defended? That would give the PvP fleets something to do for sure! My fear is however, that the PvP will be revamped without actually looking how to integrate it with other systems in the game. Currently new features seem to get added to the game without really trying to incorporate it with other elements, so they never really blend with the rest of the content.
I'm happy PvP is finaly getting looked at, although I'm somewhat dissapointed that only 1 person is looking at it, after the many promises over the years that dev's were looking and working on it, which is apparent now they were not.
I'd highly recommend that a test server is made purely for the PvP changes and that all teh major PvP guilds are invited to test the changes 'and' give feedback and advice for improving and making a new system. These changes really can not be made behind closed doors without proper feedback from teh dev's and the PvP community. Lets hope the communication keeps coming.
+1 to this , always felt that it was a rather weak premise to destabilize such a strong alliance of two superpowers. plenty of other baddies for increased polarization and team work. Can't wait for the changes
My point is, you want more knowledgeable players than players that well... take boarding party to pvp. Because people with little to no knowledge will tend to give bad advice, feedback and suggestions.
I think even the people that take the Boarding Parties into PvP may be good to ahve a voice - as long as it is not just their voice. We can tell them that the power sucks, they can tell us they love the power, and Gozer can conclude that the power may require some adjustment that both sides are happy with it.
Of course, if that's the scope a PvP overhaul would need for a chance of success, it could also mean that PvP needs its plug pulled because the scope is too big. :eek:
But I wouldn't worry about that right now. We should concentrate on thinking of what is the best for PvP if it was made, not an ********** compromise that ultimately will just lead to more bile and anger in the long run. As Gozer indicated, Cryptic doesn't have that much too lose if the PvP population left compared. And frankly, we PvPers don't also. We're clinging to PvP because it's Startrek, because it was fun for a while, because it has so much potential. But not because we are happy and see it moving in a good direction. If we can't get it move in the right direction, stagnation just means more torment.
See the thing is, people that use boarding party and enjoy it. Wouldn't have clue 1 as to how to make it better since they feel it's fine and awesome win sauce.
They don't understand the mechanics enough to hazard a guess.
It'd be better off if people that knew the mechanics whipped a new one. After all if the people that use it already like it, in it's TRIBBLE state. well frankly it could only get better when changes are implemented by people that have working knowledge of the mechanics of the game.
Maybe they can give consultation on what color the boarding shuttles should be, but as far as the actual meat and potatoes of the power?
That'd be akin to having your typical non mechanically inclined person, give input on the design of the engine going into their car.
I think too many powers have gone on being ignored for a long time by the PvP community. If it's useless, we tend to simply ignore it. Only if it's too good we really worry. The weak stuff bothers us a little, but unless it affects an entire character or ship class, it's something we deal with.
But all these subpar choices are a problem to PvP. Having Boarding Party users may remind us that we need to ensure that these powers must be part of some valid build as well, and not just be forever forgottten. Powers that are never good are traps, and an overall negative element for game design.
The clueful players need to describe why Boarding Party is so sucktastic. (Easily countered, accidentally countered, counters often all/noting, and if not countered, very random. But it would work reliably instead, it would probably be uber with its disabling of shield systems.) Stuff like that.
Sometimes you need someone inexperienced and "clueless" to figure out that something isn't really easy to figure out if you don't already have that knowledge. PvP in STO is full of that, so much stuff you can't just learn anywhre in the game. And we take a lot for granted. In many posts in the past weeks, I speak about "Distribute Shield Power". But damnit,
a) I am not even sure that's what it is called in the UI.
b) I don't even know the posters know that, if they click in the middle of the paper doll they can balance their shields
c) That they can also find this power in the power list
d) they can drag that onto their power tray.
e) they can even keybind to that!
Sometimes we know so much that we don't know what other people do not know. If that makes any sense to you.
Port over the Zombie Apocalypse from Champions for a ground map called "Borg Assimilation".
Seriously, how awesome would it be to have a player as a Borg that's attempting to assimilate your team and turning them against you? Seriously!?!? Last man standing scenario! The original borg player is rewarded based on how quickly he assimilates the others, and everyone else on how long they survive.
Honestly, the first time I zoned in to the Assimilated Cruiser map I thought that's what I was getting. lol
This will fix everything for me.
Okay, maybe that alone won't. But many people have gone in to details in regards to the main concerns already so I'll just be random. Yay!
I got what you're pitching, which is one of the reasons I've been known to periodically grind up one of my boffs, and pick up powers I don't normally take, to 1 make sure it didn't become broken while no one was looking, 2 become overpowered while no one was looking or 3 to see if the power really does in fact suck as bad as I remember it sucking.
I remember Sivar's thread pretty well, and we covered almost everything in the game that was wrong with it at the time, including worthless boff powers, why they are bad and pointed out possible solutions.
I think we'd do the same again, if our input was actually being listened to.
The problem with asking people that don't actually know or understand the mechanics for their input, is they have no baseline knowledge to work from by and large. If you've never driven a car before (especially on a race track), or drove one that's actually worth a damn, how can you really give accurate input on the car's setup beyond some of the basics? (Like seat placement, car color, it's appearance)
Same kind of problem here. They don't know enough to know what's good or bad. As for another example the boarding party one I listed above. There are many players out there that feel this is a fantastic power evidently because they use Mark 3 on their ships constantly. They've clearly never tried any of the -good- abilities or else they'd have put the BP away. So how could they be qualified to give any significant input as to why it's needing a buff?
Before I was given PVP I had other day to day and week to week tasks that filled out my schedule. I had STF's and other stuff. That other stuff is being moved off of my plate to other new content designers. Which by the way is a answer to another question I noticed earlier, the fact that we now have a few more people in the design department is a direct result of PWE. If we didn't have additional staff, this wouldn't be happening.
Oh and for the record... I asked to be given PVP, it wasn't forced on me. I personally think it has a great deal of potential, it just needs attention.
Yeah that is so true being it didn't have a special caretaker if you will and not really any room before to do so will give a better chance at it becoming better. The constructive feedback I'd give on this situation because I am sure you were aware of the attempt back a year ago where it looked like a copy of pi canis sortie bravo's attack freighter in regulus system. The feedback that came out on that I think because imo the pvp issue is going to be a bit slow progressing since lots of people have lots of ideas as well as time it takes to develop. My greater notion to getting to a point here is that I believe that it should be taken as slow as its needed to work on PvP because in the end it would only disappoint the player base who enjoys pvp if it looks like a cut and paste as well as I don't think the majority wants to see a 50 vs 1-2 players anymore some designs more around a standard purpose more than griefing on a few people who wouldn't be able to defend themselves by the sheer numbers against them it just isn't fun. Overall though I believe in relation to what most ppl have talked about wanting is a PvEvP type territory control or something similar. That's just my take on it but I could be wrong.
I want PvP to have a stake in the world of STO, and be one of the many ways I can live stories in that settings, and experience great Star Trek moments. Spock's blurb when going into Eta Eridani puts it rather compellingly - it'd be ideal if STO could live up to that promise. That some difference can indeed be made. Some effort in that direction had been attempted in the past with Open PvP freighter-related skirmishes... but that seems to have been dropped. That's a shame, because it seemed like a step in the right direction.
I agree, in fact the primary reason I stopped doing PvP was because it didn't mean anything in terms of the story... and had no impact on the game in any way. The closest thing to Open PvP was Kerrat which was interesting to a degree, but the same issue was true there as well - it didn't mean anything. As far as rewards offered for participating in PvP, they were not enough of an incentive for me.
STF's have the same problem, they don't mean anything and there is no real story going on... so to me it's just a grind for loot which bores me to tears. I went as far as getting my KHG MkXI space and KHG MkXI ground sets ...but by that point I was thoroughly burned out on it and stopped doing STF's. As much as I would love to have the KHG MKXII ground set I won't ever do that much grinding for anything, no way.
Cryptic seemed surprised that their metrics showed many KDF only players like myself were dropping out of PvP, the answer is simple, why bother? PvE is a hamster wheel grind as is, why should I want to grind PvP and have to listen to whining and smack talk on top of it? I'll admit blowing up Capt. Kirk/Picard wanna-be's is fun initially but after a while it gets just as monotonous without a reason for it.
At this point all I can do is let Gozer/Cryptic know why I stopped doing PvP. It's up to him and Cryptic whether or not they are willing to do anything significant to entice players like me back into PvP. If they make changes great, if they don't... oh well.
Comments
If we want pvp to survive in STO, we have to adapt it to casual players!
Look at how it is in PvP for a casual player now:
- You go in against enemies that are potentially insanely OP. Like going into a STF in a shuttle when you're level one!
- There are no good rewards (except a little dilithium). Even crappy explore missions give better item rewards.
- There is no way of easing into it. Being careful will not help you.
- There is no "storyline" reason to do the pvp missions.
- There is no variation in how the mission progresses, only in enemy behaviour.
Now think about this: If the above could be said about a PvE aspect of the game, would anyone do it?
Based on this, I would say:
- PvP needs rewards. Good ones!
- PvP has to be split up in difficulties. Arenas like we have them today in the tough end of the scale, something much softer in the other end. Give new players a chance to participate!
- PvP needs some storyline reason to it.
- PvP needs more varied content.
- PvP needs careful skill balancing.
btw: thank you Gozer for giving us the straight story rather than spoonfeeding us false expectations. And remember that PvP makes STO a more full game. Even in times when I did not do much PvP, knowing that I COULD do PvP made me feel like I had more varied options.
I think you are reading too much into what I'm saying, the point I was trying to make was to ensure the PVP community is involved in it's testing, preferably on a dedicated test server for these changes. It is sometimes easier to apprach guilds as they have an internal communication system in place to contact all thier members, making it easier to get a number of people quickly, this wasn't meant to mean that I didn't think they should not take people not in PvP guilds as well
Actually I kind of like the idea of excluding non pvp guilds for this.
PvE guilds are infamously bad at pvp. So much so that their reputation for being poor at it, has gone beyond STO as an example of how to not pvp. They often not only get mechanics wrong, but couldn't be more wrong in their assessment had they been paid to be such.
For example, a common gripe from PvE guilds is Escorts are overpowered.... Despite the fact that no serious premade would take 5 escorts into the ques, if they were expecting real competition... Because Escorts fall horribly short in terms of performance, especially when you start adding more and more of them into the equation.
To say nothing of the commonly egregious Math errors, and horrible ship builds they bring along and their willingness to defend their builds as being "great! you're just clearly cheating" when they get rolled over.
with what good part of sto player will be gone and pve is fine as is sure there needs end game love but overall imo it is fine to the point of doing this much needed fix.
how do u know the casual players dont pvp, i am one of them and yes i do pvp. Pvp is not only for the people whop r on 90% of the time. this is pvp not pve and putting pve element like kerrat is a good idea but no go on the storyline imo.
Could we just all copy, paste, and post the above until next weeks thread?
I for one would quit the game if PvP was removed. Far from focusing on it as we where lead to believe, the idea that your thinking about turning off the lifesupport on top of all the lock box TRIBBLE and lack of content is really depressing.
First off i'd like to thank Gozer for being so blunt and to the point in his OP.... this is what we need, a no Bull s**t this is how it is mind set...
As for My pvp pedagree i have a large pvp gaming background using meny different pvp systems and game types, Ex. top 3k all time best pvp'ers in Eve Online was under 2k before i when afk... 2k+ elo in LOL and was ranked in the top 5k BF3 so yes i have worked with different pvp gaming systems. and this is just a short list...
Anyways STO imo has alot going for it and for a 'young' MMO 2 years or so, i think it is now just finding its feet in meny ways and the work done this year will set out its future... now we all know what is wrong with pvp so lets no dwell on all that.
What i have found in meny games pvp systems is one of the key things is a soild meta game for players to get in to ... STO has this for the most part but as with anything can have stuff added too, and updated but all in all is in good shape.
As for content ie... the raw bones of a pvp system in STO if we are to remake it, it needs (what i would do if i was incharge of dev side pvp revamp)
*** Game modes:
*last man standing/king of the hill... say 10 or 20 players, a point system for not getting killed and or killing
*attack/defend 2 round match so both teams do both tasks. (starbase/convoy/strat base ect)
*5v5 3v3 1v1 queues
*cap and hold is a vaild game mode like what we have now.
*cap the flag. 1 base each and 1-2 flags that need to be taken back to each base. team play would be needed ie. 3 defend and 2 go get the flags ect .
*some sort of system that would allow us to make torneys
*Fleet starbases ( yes these are coming but how much of it will be used in pvp we do not know however if say: 10vs10 or even 20vs20 12th fleet attacks jupiter forces starbase and the winner wins resources for starbase upgrades ect. this would be awesome! also a starbase for the role players ect that is non pvp. But i'd like to see the pvp side of it come in to play also.
*** more (2-5) open pvp zones that do not have a timer/forced task like ker'ret. the player base is crying out for this imo. some starter assests are even in game for this... like OP gamma mission map, have the roids with the swarmers some sort of minerble resource added to them and thats it !! And then anything goes.. have a damage/kills board like in a normal pvp match but no reset timer and just let it play out... this would be full of win and is just a few of meny ideas i have for a solid pvp revamp for this game
Also a leaderboard and ranking system that could be viewed publicly would go along way in its self to pull in pvp player base... its human nature to want to be the best and or beat others in live combat/bragging rights and all that good stuff, this in its self would drive players to think more about play styles and fits and on a side note there would be a large influx of the pvp player base spending more on c-store ships and items to rank up on the boards and get every edge in that quest for the top spots.. you could do it on a 6 month basis so best of the best/XYZ amount of kills/wins/losses/damage ect, gets accolades titles and trophies or some sort of ingame reward for completing a 6 month season in the top spots... you could also do team rankings and then once the 6month season is over the boards all reset... very much like League of legends does ! this is a winning system... very simple and very effective at keeping players interested and making the player base grow. all this talk about end game content if cryptic was to really embrace pvp you could tap in to an untold amount of new and old players and in a rota 6 month quest for ranking/accolades/trophies and leaderboards it would keep players interested year in year out, and would pay for its self in terms of all the c-points being spent. cryptic could even Host a torney for 5v5 teams that had the top ranking spots for season champ and lay out prizes for said winner and runner ups... im telling you know if this was put in to the game it would put STO at the forefront of mmo pvp !!! and my days would make the pvp player base so large that you would be shocked. with the right amount of RP on cryptics side this could be Epic... even E-Sports comps ect.
You could even set up a foundry comp for the player base to design 1 or more of the new revamp pvp maps and the winners have them used in the live revamp.
The point is Gozer your not alone and your not the only asset... you have us ! and yes we all have our rants on these forums but its only cus we want this game to do well and progress.
please feel free to use any of the above info/ideas as you see fit, and if you need anything else from me my mail box is always open
Nova.
My suggestions for a successful PVP environment, as other players have already said, would be (in this order):
1. Ranking system - to get more people to PVP; if there's nothing to brag about people are not interested in PVP; also PUBLIC SPECS/STATS would help/give clues to new players how to start pvp;
2. Matchmaking system (see WoW Arena) - to give time to newbies to learn the PVP environment, aka you have 0-1000 PVP ranking points you get the 1st tier PVP players, 1000-2000 - 2nd tier, 2000-3000 3rd tier;
3. Rewards - special PVP rewards/currency that can be exchanged for PVE stuff aswell: weapons, equipment, rare and very rare equipment, doffs, etc.;
4. Cheaper (maybe free) re-spec tokens: this way people can experiment a lot more with builds and team setups;
5. Contests: every week, every month, every six months, etc... something to get the people interested in learning PVP.
PVP is for me the reason why I started this game. After quite a few years in WoW I realized that the only reason for anyone to play a MMO(RP)G is going against the human factor.
In PVE you kill bosses, go to special events, you do everything you can do (with 5, 10, 15 characters - you name it) and in the end the boredom settles. The AI is still limited.
On the other hand, PVP is UNPREDICTABLE (and I think I say EVERYTHING when I use this word). The best part is when you see a player transform from a total noob to a perfect player. PVP brings quality to any game. Quality = more players = more money (for Cryptic).
PVP players seldom fail in PVE (we all know that is a general truth).
Again, the general ideas for a successful PVP environment are already out there. You guys at Cryptic should just check them out.
decided against edit.
Hey could be neighbor.
Thanks for the clarification. While I have been in large PVP fleets, and small ones, many of us keep in touch with each other on the PVP and know each other. I just did not want someone to cry "elitism" there on that, which would be the wrong assumption on their part.
Case in point. lets not distinguish team or even go there, leave it alone, lay the weapon down and just walk away. Lets stick to the topic, fixing pvp.
I would have to agree. Also I think we need these non-pvp fleet. Why?
Who do you think he is trying to make play pvp? It aint us. Its "them" aka me. As I'm in a you can only belong to one fleet "fleet" and it is primarily PvE.
Screams "Effin PVE'rs" Listens to silence in ts3 "TRIBBLE" ummm " Effin PvE'rs Stealing my epic Lutz" hahahah youre funny man.
But in all seriousness Lets not create this rift as A major part of this "initiative" is to try and bridge the gap between PvE only and PvP only.
So... why not tell us your long term plan?
If territory control or fleet starbases are involved in PvP, that would help.
Jeezum crow, scared the heck out of me. I had visions of the two factions being completely split up. Good to know you're going this way.
During the first year of STO I PVP'ed like no-ones business. In fact, I went from around Level 30 or 40, just PVPing. It wasn't that it was super fun, it was just something to do as I was a little burnt out on PVE at the time. These days, the only PVP I do is against my partner and the problem with that is we're evenly matched now that I've been coaching her.
So, currently when I PVP, it's 1 vs 1 for around 20 minutes without someone making a kill until one of us concedes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, we get some laughs and some tense moments, its just that neither of us can turn the tide in a big way.
Not sure where I'm going with this. I'd be sad to see PVP go, but I'd probably be sadder to see it get stale and neglected. Like those Easter Eggs in my pantry.
I would like to see some sort of PVP flag though, I always enjoyed that in SWG (Don't hate me); but I get the feeling that wouldn't really work that well in sector space, it'd be like being pulled into those space encounters.
So there you go, my rant, ramble and the like.
U guys in cruisers? sci-vessels?
I fly a Defiant Refit (Retrofit? I get them confused, the level 50 Defiant) and she flies a Multi Vector Assault. I'm fully loaded with three AntiProton dual heavy cannon on the front with a torp launcher, and all turrets on the back.
She's got two beams on the back and a turret, with two dual heavy cannon on the front with a beam and torp. My problem is, those flipping science BO's. She's got three shield buff abilities that I have all sorts of trouble punching though and keeping down. Basically, we'll be able to peel the shields off each other, but each are able to heal as quick as we can damage.
And don't get me started on the Antimatter spread!
Personally, I think Gozer needs to focus on two things: Balancing and Territorial PvP.
With Balancing, I honestly believe that tons of this could be solved by a 2-value system, where all powers and abilities have a PvP value and a PvE value. That way if something is OP or UP one one side, it can be adjusted without hurting the other side. A good example is what's happened to Science over the years.
With Territorial PvP, I guarantee you that the PvP population would increase with this to the point that you making cross-faction PvP queues would be wasted.
Space maps with Open PvP, where people can fight anytime. Just put it over worlds, give somekind of PvP warning, add some hazards / aids, some map goals (for purpose), and presto.
Ground maps, have people fight their way through Space PvP to the planet to beam down in factional camps, add some goals and hazzards you have in war zone maps (like turrets and mortor fire that actually do damage), and there you go.
Do this for dozens of worlds (which wouldn't hurt PvErs since you could select to enter the PvE mission or enter the PvP map).
That's all you need to do, Gozer.
Well that's my personal opinion on the matter at least.
STFs represent a joining of Starfleet and KDF volunteers to join forces and show a unified front against the Borg. This makes STFs a part of the story-experience of the game, even though the eight different scenarios can get repetitive.
PvP represented the conflict that was ignited between the Federation and the Klingon Empire over the manipulation of the Undine, a growing lack of cooperation between the KDF and the Feds, some paranoia and other disagreements on how to act against the Undine and the other problems happening in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Though Fed vs. Fed was added, those were labelled as wargames, so it kept the idea of a player-participative war-effort between Starfleet and the KDF alive.
Stray from that, and it is my feeling that PvP will matter even less in my eyes - a unified queue is going to do that, unless the Empire suddenly becomes buddy-buddy with the Federation once again and start wargame exercises. If you cannot rise up to that, I'd rather PvP being taken out, simply because it won't be about Star Trek anymore.
I want PvP to have a stake in the world of STO, and be one of the many ways I can live stories in that settings, and experience great Star Trek moments. Spock's blurb when going into Eta Eridani puts it rather compellingly - it'd be ideal if STO could live up to that promise. That some difference can indeed be made. Some effort in that direction had been attempted in the past with Open PvP freighter-related skirmishes... but that seems to have been dropped. That's a shame, because it seemed like a step in the right direction.
Guild Wars 2 seems to adhere to an event structure where success or failure provides escalation in the setting, in one direction, or the other. Tracked PvP objectives could in the same fashion offer a mobile warfront where star systems change hands, and where mission venues would change depending on whom has the upper hand. Including this in a PvPvE fashion similar to Aion's abyss would allow people less inclined toward PvP to still participate, find some way of contributing and be consentually inclined in Open PvP areas - and thus exposed to it as much as they'd like while having a low bar of entry.
Outcomes and rewards should be able to affect the broader economy. I don't think any special store is needed so much as introducing elements which would make the whole playerbase care, to a lesser or greater degree, about success in PvP. A bonus to dillithium-earning rates, finding dilithium materials as combat salvage, healthier economy through lower EC prices from NPC vendors and Exchange purchases.
Would love to see more open pvp.
I personally feel the correct action would be to remove PvP and not waste time or resources on it, that is just my 2 cents. With that out of the way here are my suggestions on the big 3 things that need changing to make pvp interesting and engaging to me.
1) Incentives and Rewards
Right now there is little reason to pvp other than if you enjoy it. This is bad, you want pvp to be a self sufficient part of the game with the reward system. By that I mean you should not have to grind out pve to have the top or near top end pvp gear. Best way to fix this without adding new currencies would be to establish a PvP Exp system similar to the doff reward system. Each pvp match you do gives you the exp, more exp 'ranks' you complete the better gear you can purchase for dilithium from the pvp store. This should include, but not be limited to, new sets that rival the STF ones for pvp, weapons, consumables, doffs, boffs, etc.
2) Systems and Mechanics
Right now PvP is so incredibly boring to me. There are a handful of mechanics that are at fault for this.
a) Too much sustain. My escorts can heal themselves to full in less than a minute and a half. Zombie cruisers are annoying as all get out. The amount of potential healing in this game is causing major problems. Simple fix? -50% all shield and hull regen and heals debuff applied during PvP.
b) Spike damage/Alpha strikes can lead to one shots or very quick kills. I know this seems contrary to the sustain problem but it is not. Sustain = overtime, buffer = vs alpha strikes. Sustain is too high and buffer is too low simply put. Simple solution would either be a hull/shield HP buff applied, or a crit debuff applied.
c) Hard counters are TOXIC to pvp. The main reason boarding parties are bad is tac team. Sub Nuc Beam makes sci team required in pvp. This is a much more difficult thing to fix but it does need to be addressed in some fashion or pvp will never become casual friendly nor will boff powers be remotely balanced as far as desirability goes.
3) Matchmaking and Rankings
There needs to be a ranking or elo system put into place. This will allow the pros to fight pros and the casuals to fight the casuals. When someone PvPs for the first time and shoots at a target for five minutes and it doesn't die and then has an enemy escort burn them down from full in under six seconds the odds of them enjoying the experience is extremely low.
Misc Ideas
I really like this idea, suddenly PVP turns into a mix of kill the Borg and other team. You could choose to work together or just have an all out brawl. Though, not sure if that's what you'd be looking for in a pure PVP match. Good idea for another event though!
+1 to this
I think even the people that take the Boarding Parties into PvP may be good to ahve a voice - as long as it is not just their voice. We can tell them that the power sucks, they can tell us they love the power, and Gozer can conclude that the power may require some adjustment that both sides are happy with it.
Of course, if that's the scope a PvP overhaul would need for a chance of success, it could also mean that PvP needs its plug pulled because the scope is too big. :eek:
But I wouldn't worry about that right now. We should concentrate on thinking of what is the best for PvP if it was made, not an ********** compromise that ultimately will just lead to more bile and anger in the long run. As Gozer indicated, Cryptic doesn't have that much too lose if the PvP population left compared. And frankly, we PvPers don't also. We're clinging to PvP because it's Startrek, because it was fun for a while, because it has so much potential. But not because we are happy and see it moving in a good direction. If we can't get it move in the right direction, stagnation just means more torment.
They don't understand the mechanics enough to hazard a guess.
It'd be better off if people that knew the mechanics whipped a new one. After all if the people that use it already like it, in it's TRIBBLE state. well frankly it could only get better when changes are implemented by people that have working knowledge of the mechanics of the game.
Maybe they can give consultation on what color the boarding shuttles should be, but as far as the actual meat and potatoes of the power?
That'd be akin to having your typical non mechanically inclined person, give input on the design of the engine going into their car.
But all these subpar choices are a problem to PvP. Having Boarding Party users may remind us that we need to ensure that these powers must be part of some valid build as well, and not just be forever forgottten. Powers that are never good are traps, and an overall negative element for game design.
The clueful players need to describe why Boarding Party is so sucktastic. (Easily countered, accidentally countered, counters often all/noting, and if not countered, very random. But it would work reliably instead, it would probably be uber with its disabling of shield systems.) Stuff like that.
Sometimes you need someone inexperienced and "clueless" to figure out that something isn't really easy to figure out if you don't already have that knowledge. PvP in STO is full of that, so much stuff you can't just learn anywhre in the game. And we take a lot for granted. In many posts in the past weeks, I speak about "Distribute Shield Power". But damnit,
a) I am not even sure that's what it is called in the UI.
b) I don't even know the posters know that, if they click in the middle of the paper doll they can balance their shields
c) That they can also find this power in the power list
d) they can drag that onto their power tray.
e) they can even keybind to that!
Sometimes we know so much that we don't know what other people do not know. If that makes any sense to you.
Seriously, how awesome would it be to have a player as a Borg that's attempting to assimilate your team and turning them against you? Seriously!?!? Last man standing scenario! The original borg player is rewarded based on how quickly he assimilates the others, and everyone else on how long they survive.
Honestly, the first time I zoned in to the Assimilated Cruiser map I thought that's what I was getting. lol
This will fix everything for me.
Okay, maybe that alone won't. But many people have gone in to details in regards to the main concerns already so I'll just be random. Yay!
I remember Sivar's thread pretty well, and we covered almost everything in the game that was wrong with it at the time, including worthless boff powers, why they are bad and pointed out possible solutions.
I think we'd do the same again, if our input was actually being listened to.
The problem with asking people that don't actually know or understand the mechanics for their input, is they have no baseline knowledge to work from by and large. If you've never driven a car before (especially on a race track), or drove one that's actually worth a damn, how can you really give accurate input on the car's setup beyond some of the basics? (Like seat placement, car color, it's appearance)
Same kind of problem here. They don't know enough to know what's good or bad. As for another example the boarding party one I listed above. There are many players out there that feel this is a fantastic power evidently because they use Mark 3 on their ships constantly. They've clearly never tried any of the -good- abilities or else they'd have put the BP away. So how could they be qualified to give any significant input as to why it's needing a buff?
Yeah that is so true being it didn't have a special caretaker if you will and not really any room before to do so will give a better chance at it becoming better. The constructive feedback I'd give on this situation because I am sure you were aware of the attempt back a year ago where it looked like a copy of pi canis sortie bravo's attack freighter in regulus system. The feedback that came out on that I think because imo the pvp issue is going to be a bit slow progressing since lots of people have lots of ideas as well as time it takes to develop. My greater notion to getting to a point here is that I believe that it should be taken as slow as its needed to work on PvP because in the end it would only disappoint the player base who enjoys pvp if it looks like a cut and paste as well as I don't think the majority wants to see a 50 vs 1-2 players anymore some designs more around a standard purpose more than griefing on a few people who wouldn't be able to defend themselves by the sheer numbers against them it just isn't fun. Overall though I believe in relation to what most ppl have talked about wanting is a PvEvP type territory control or something similar. That's just my take on it but I could be wrong.
I agree, in fact the primary reason I stopped doing PvP was because it didn't mean anything in terms of the story... and had no impact on the game in any way. The closest thing to Open PvP was Kerrat which was interesting to a degree, but the same issue was true there as well - it didn't mean anything. As far as rewards offered for participating in PvP, they were not enough of an incentive for me.
STF's have the same problem, they don't mean anything and there is no real story going on... so to me it's just a grind for loot which bores me to tears. I went as far as getting my KHG MkXI space and KHG MkXI ground sets ...but by that point I was thoroughly burned out on it and stopped doing STF's. As much as I would love to have the KHG MKXII ground set I won't ever do that much grinding for anything, no way.
Cryptic seemed surprised that their metrics showed many KDF only players like myself were dropping out of PvP, the answer is simple, why bother? PvE is a hamster wheel grind as is, why should I want to grind PvP and have to listen to whining and smack talk on top of it? I'll admit blowing up Capt. Kirk/Picard wanna-be's is fun initially but after a while it gets just as monotonous without a reason for it.
At this point all I can do is let Gozer/Cryptic know why I stopped doing PvP. It's up to him and Cryptic whether or not they are willing to do anything significant to entice players like me back into PvP. If they make changes great, if they don't... oh well.