Methods to stop/evade siphon drones (125 aux = 15 sec Relaunch timer per bay):
Yes, at 125 AUX power the recharge times for most launchables is ridiculously low. Perhaps a ton of PvP carriers have their AUX maxed out, however I doubt it. I for one usually have it set around 65-75 which does not give the siphon drones a recharge of anywhere close to 15 seconds. I wish it did :^D. However at those power levels it's around 25-29 seconds.
Otherwise I agree that they are a bit powerful, but they can't be spammed easily (unless someone diverts all power to AUX, but then they'd take away from their own shield and weapon power. They could pop an AUX battery, but the effects don't last really long and the cool down for batteries is ridiculous.
Also, I just found some more information on why pets aren't able to attack the Borg transwarp gates, and I'm forwarding it to the relevant folks to try to fix it.
This bit right here is very interesting and very useful, thanks.
You've not known this?
If you try to send BoP's to attack any target that is outside of 10k from the carrier they do the same thing...that is fly off to the other side of the map and attack some random target.
You have to get inside 10k and attack something yourself, then order them to attack.
After the last patch even this has gotten worse, even if you are inside 10k and firing on the target 'some' of them will still fly off to who knows where instead of attacking your target.
Also, I just found some more information on why pets aren't able to attack the Borg transwarp gates, and I'm forwarding it to the relevant folks to try to fix it.
There are several issues that all conspired simultaneously.
1. Certain enemy geometry pieces interact oddly with our pet controls, which means that some entities with Really Big Geo (Borg gates, B'Ger, etc.) can become untargetable to pets. I've set up some detailed bug analysis of this and sent it over to other folks on the team who can hopefully address it.
2. There was a leftover piece of code from an older control subroutine that was throwing fighters into an unkillable state. This will now be fixed (when this update goes live).
3. In certain circumstances an entity's targeting data can be cleared, and if the entity then tries to attack or follow this "non-target" it will wind up flying off to who knows where.
4. The 10km-12km range will always be a bit problematic because it's a range where you can send fighters, but the enemies do not have the ability to attack you. This means that its functionality works a little bit differently than most of our combat powers.
Anyway, I'm just about done tightening the screws on some of the AI controls (currently testing a case where my BoPs are with me in the midst of a swarm of enemy fighters and frigates, but they aren't switching to target the fighters when in Intercept mode).
Bonus: I set up a control update so that all space pets following you will (at last) not fall behind when you go to Full Impulse. This includes separated saucers.
There are several issues that all conspired simultaneously.
1. Certain enemy geometry pieces interact oddly with our pet controls, which means that some entities with Really Big Geo (Borg gates, B'Ger, etc.) can become untargetable to pets. I've set up some detailed bug analysis of this and sent it over to other folks on the team who can hopefully address it.
2. There was a leftover piece of code from an older control subroutine that was throwing fighters into an unkillable state. This will now be fixed (when this update goes live).
3. In certain circumstances an entity's targeting data can be cleared, and if the entity then tries to attack or follow this "non-target" it will wind up flying off to who knows where.
4. The 10km-12km range will always be a bit problematic because it's a range where you can send fighters, but the enemies do not have the ability to attack you. This means that its functionality works a little bit differently than most of our combat powers.
Anyway, I'm just about done tightening the screws on some of the AI controls (currently testing a case where my BoPs are with me in the midst of a swarm of enemy fighters and frigates, but they aren't switching to target the fighters when in Intercept mode).
Bonus: I set up a control update so that all space pets following you will (at last) not fall behind when you go to Full Impulse. This includes separated saucers.
YES, so hopefully the fighters will target gates and whatnot! Sweet.
However, they've also stopped targeting normal enemies and when they do they are rather... lame and lethargic. Is this intentional as a balance issue or is it another problem?
There are several issues that all conspired simultaneously.
1. Certain enemy geometry pieces interact oddly with our pet controls, which means that some entities with Really Big Geo (Borg gates, B'Ger, etc.) can become untargetable to pets. I've set up some detailed bug analysis of this and sent it over to other folks on the team who can hopefully address it.
odd since if you click on the pets they will have the gate and other large objects targeted & will fly up to licking range. They certainly are targeting them. They just ain't shooting or entering whatever combat mode it needs to switch to
3. In certain circumstances an entity's targeting data can be cleared, and if the entity then tries to attack or follow this "non-target" it will wind up flying off to who knows where.
I've never seen this happen at all. The only times pets fly off for no reason is when they go after another target far away (pick up aggro list from team or pet on its own picks up a target far away) or when they were receiving inputs from multiple sources (the bug that Borticus fixed recently). But they always, always had a target and always flew to it.
4. The 10km-12km range will always be a bit problematic because it's a range where you can send fighters, but the enemies do not have the ability to attack you. This means that its functionality works a little bit differently than most of our combat powers.
A clarification: you cannot send pets at 12km. They will take off and shoot something other than what you're telling them to. The only time they will obey a beyond 10km but under 12km order is if your ship has already entered combat with that target and target flies out of 10km range.
In short, if I acquire a target at 12km and I haven't fired on it ..and I tell pets to attack they will not do it. They will fly off and attack whatever is on their hate list (as in, not the target I want them to shoot!).
I agree however that beyond 10km range orders may lead to exploits. However, if NPC's can be made to consider the pets #1 priority targets that would not only compensate for the beyond retaliation range attack ability (as pets have a good chance of dying en-route and in-combat as they are attacked as soon as they enter 10km) but it also adds a teamwork functionality to a beyond 10km range carrier: crowd control.
wow you guys must REALLY love your completely unoptimized and ineffective builds. tractor beam repulsers? i don't want to annoy people, i want to kill them. torpedoes? maybe if im using an escort. wont do you any good wile they are on cool down. in some perfect world were your ready for anything, you can counter everything. but if your already in the middle of combat and your damaged and half your abilities are on cooldown your vulnerable to any sort of thing, especially one you cant counter when caught by.
You may have vastly underestimated the tractor repulsor ability then.
3. Tractor Beam Repulsors
on a cruiser for any reason? ya right, proboly wouldn't deal heavy enough damage to kill them without an aux battery. if slotted i loose TSS2, and i am much more vulnerable to actual threats from other players, not broken instadrain trash mobs.
I put repulsors on all my ships. Drones die to 25 aux power setting repulsor 1 so you dont need any aux battery. Repulsor is an excellent multipurpose tool: If you're tractored you can push them away and their tractor beam gets cut off. You can tractor drones and in-your-face ships away from you...this is particularly good for cruisers as its easier to bring guns to bear on a target 8km than one 3km away; it makes you immune to heavy torpedoes and drones and, if used with evasive maneuvers, can really damage the hull of a ship.
I will tell you again, as a carrier and as someone that uses repulsors all the time: They are what make you completely immune to drones.
6. Torpedo Spread
on a cruiser? torpedoes are worthless. the chances you will have this ready on cooldown, and be pointed at the pets right when you need to be is extreamly low.
Thats your opinion. In any case I mentioned spread because it does insta-kill a drain drone swarm coming at you.
8. Evasive Maneuvers
useless with 0 engine power. this is the only way to get out of a situation like the one in the picture i posted though. assuming you have an engine battery off cooldown and you can hit evasive fast enough to use the energy before its drained away in about a second.
You're supposed to use it before the drones get to you. If you had repulsors you wouldnt need to but if you dont have repulsors you can just do evasives or set engine power to high and outrun them as you kill them. Drain drones are VERY slow.
one of my beam array wielding, plasma belching, healer cruisers could have dealt with them easily most likely, but if the drones had an opening my counter heavy cruiser would be just as completely shutdown and helpless. THAT'S THE ISSUE. now really, stop derailing the thread with personal attacks on my inability to counter overpowered due to broken resists pets in a ship that's a complete mismatch for taking out the trash. it doesn't make you look cool
No, the issue is you whining about what they do when the drain drones reach you. You are being told multiple ways to eliminate them before they get to you and also how to kill them in the first few seconds it takes for them to shut you down. Just like any other ability, they have several counters. Just because none are one that you find fit your build is more indicative of a problem on your end than it being an issue with the drain drones themselves.
Use that tractor repulsor. Learn it, love it, abuse it.
There are several issues that all conspired simultaneously.
1. Certain enemy geometry pieces interact oddly with our pet controls, which means that some entities with Really Big Geo (Borg gates, B'Ger, etc.) can become untargetable to pets. I've set up some detailed bug analysis of this and sent it over to other folks on the team who can hopefully address it.
2. There was a leftover piece of code from an older control subroutine that was throwing fighters into an unkillable state. This will now be fixed (when this update goes live).
3. In certain circumstances an entity's targeting data can be cleared, and if the entity then tries to attack or follow this "non-target" it will wind up flying off to who knows where.
4. The 10km-12km range will always be a bit problematic because it's a range where you can send fighters, but the enemies do not have the ability to attack you. This means that its functionality works a little bit differently than most of our combat powers.
Anyway, I'm just about done tightening the screws on some of the AI controls (currently testing a case where my BoPs are with me in the midst of a swarm of enemy fighters and frigates, but they aren't switching to target the fighters when in Intercept mode).
Bonus: I set up a control update so that all space pets following you will (at last) not fall behind when you go to Full Impulse. This includes separated saucers.
That makes me wonder about a possible similar occurrence that deals with the erikson system for KDF pi canis sortie bravo. Is the medical station count as one big object? I know the target able portions of it do not seem that big to the naked unemployed by cryptic eye but they react the same when you target those 2 parts of the station for the mission. Also there is a limited arc in which the player can actually target these as well. I've just always figured that the borg gates, cubes, v'ger, as well as the medical station had a shared problem. Or it could be something totally different for all I know lol.
I just bought the Kar'Fi today and ran a ton of STFs, great fun not knowing how it worked, what did what, or knowing what drones / fighters were better. I ended up using 6(?) Fek'Ihri Fighters and 2 Fek'Ihri Frigates couldn't seem to call more, though wiki says more but that might be out of date. Everything seemed to work well, I would tell them to attack and they would charge in guns blazing, then circle and attack quite normally, although the Fek'Ihri Frigates seem to, A LOT of the time stop in space and do nothing I would have to re-toggle the attack command to get them to do another attack run, but they would stop in space shortly after, this was driving me bonkers specially at the times you needed to kill the nanite balls and my guns and the fighters wasn't cutting it, a frigate attack run would have been handy at times. I like the idea of fixing BoPs, but make sure to update the Fek'Ihri Frigates too seeing I can not use BoPs on my kar'fi. Something to tell me how many of what I have in space would be really useful too seeing the fighters "suicide" run and blow up, its their function I know, but not knowing how many are in space and having to try and count names that are buzzing around is a pain in the middle of a fight.
I have been going into combat with just letting my BoPs doing all the damage and just watch their actions to watch the AI and flight patterns. I have seen them just stop in combats that last more then 30 seconds, but it is normally just one that moves to a complete stop and sites there as it thinks about his actions or regrets, I guessing. Then the BoP will turn those engines back on and rejoin the fray.
Why are the BoPs not coded to fly out to 7km from the target and begin attack run? Turn to face target at 30% speed and accelerate to 70% when angled in to the target, fly past the target at maybe 10 degrees off target (random generate the 360 angle) so it does not run into the target. After reaching 1km or 2km from target add a short delay timed script of 3sec/5sec delay and then cloak, turn at 30% speed to directly away from target and then accelerate to 100% speed. Then loop pattern.
Can we replace the carrier command aggresive?
Suggestion- Change the aggressive from a toggle to a button with a buff/debuff depending on the definition that it assigns 100% agro to that selected target and linked to your pets.
-The idea behind this is that you have given fleet command order and you as a captain can work on other thing as in target or healing and then go back to managing the pets. This provides a fluff reason and tactical advantage.
Can we get the recall range changed to 20km so we can get our pets back when they get well outside our poor 10km command range? I can see a way that a recall command can get abused beyond that fact I can get my pets to help me but that is a the current handicap.
I have been seeing that the toduj fighters seems to act worse in the 0% health zombie mode then the BoPs do. They seem to attack at a slower rate when they are at the 0% health mode.
These are just a few things I have been thinking about and dealing with over the week or so.
I took my To'Duj fighters out today in Infected space and sent them after a nanite sphere. Only one torp was shot and then the all just sat there looking at it. I felt like a third wheel and I could tell my team mates were less than happy about it.
Hopefully the To'Duj get fixed soon, it's getting annoying.
I took my To'Duj fighters out today in Infected space and sent them after a nanite sphere. Only one torp was shot and then the all just sat there looking at it. I felt like a third wheel and I could tell my team mates were less than happy about it.
Hopefully the To'Duj get fixed soon, it's getting annoying.
-Quiiliitiila
Again, the inability to target some of the objects in STFs is not AI; it's related to how internal engine targeting interacts with collision geometry. It is under investigation, as I've forwarded it to the appropriate folks.
If you check the Tribble patchnotes you'll see that some additional bulletproofing is on the test server and should be live soon.
Again, the inability to target some of the objects in STFs is not AI; it's related to how internal engine targeting interacts with collision geometry. It is under investigation, as I've forwarded it to the appropriate folks.
If you check the Tribble patchnotes you'll see that some additional bulletproofing is on the test server and should be live soon.
My apologies, I misspoke. Thank you for the update and I'll be sure to look at those patch notes (If I can find em... :^D)
BoP test server update!
1.Here are a few things I have noticed.
2.Zombie free! Pets no longer get to the 0% health zombie state.
3.Full impulse The BoP can keep up with your ship now.
4.Follow They now cloak when set to follow, a nice little touch so great job.
Issues I still see:
1.BoP stops in the middle of combat for several seconds between 7 and 10 was my average count.
2.BoP seems to act goofy when you launch them sometimes with a stutter motion.
3.On aggressive they went 25km to help of my Aceton Assimilators that was under attack by Borg also they take time to return to formation.
4.BoPs are no longer avoiding warp core explosions. (correction - new flight pattern just keeps them far enough away to simply avoid them 70% of the time but they did try to avoid a cube's explosion so it still works.)
5.Full Impulse The BoP go to full speed even if they are facing the wrong direction and will travel outside of max viewing range. (Solution is to reduce turn speed or even better increase turn rate).
BoP test server update!
1.Here are a few things I have noticed.
2.Zombie free! Pets no longer get to the 0% health zombie state.
3.Full impulse The BoP can keep up with your ship now.
4.Follow They now cloak when set to follow, a nice little touch so great job.
Issues I still see:
1.BoP stops in the middle of combat for several seconds between 7 and 10 was my average count.
2.BoP seems to act goofy when you launch them sometimes with a stutter motion.
3.On aggressive they went 25km to help of my Aceton Assimilators that was under attack by Borg also they take time to return to formation.
4.BoPs are no longer avoiding warp core explosions. (correction - new flight pattern just keeps them far enough away to simply avoid them 70% of the time but they did try to avoid a cube's explosion so it still works.)
5.Full Impulse The BoP go to full speed even if they are facing the wrong direction and will travel outside of max viewing range. (Solution is to reduce turn speed or even better increase turn rate).
Any testing with the fighters?
Thanks for the update, as I just now realized I had taken off Tribble a month or two ago without realizing it...
* Fighters/Birds of Prey on Attack mode will only return to formation after they have exited combat. This usually takes a few seconds after the last enemy is destroyed. So, once a fight ends, they'll hang out for a bit, then make their way back to formation.
* On launch, fighters are inactive for a couple of seconds because of some of the handoffs that the system makes in the process of spawning them. Think of this as the AI "warming up."
* Fighters/Birds of Prey on Attack mode will only return to formation after they have exited combat. This usually takes a few seconds after the last enemy is destroyed. So, once a fight ends, they'll hang out for a bit, then make their way back to formation.
* On launch, fighters are inactive for a couple of seconds because of some of the handoffs that the system makes in the process of spawning them. Think of this as the AI "warming up."
Very cool, that clears that up and not to big of a deal.
Thanks for the update, as I just now realized I had taken off Tribble a month or two ago without realizing it...
-Quiiliitiila
I did just try them out a little. They seem to still be with the old AI and sit right on top of the target. BUT I did not see anything saying that the To'Dujs were getting worked on atm. Also I could not tell if they were avoiding the warp core breaches or not as they are right on top of the target. This will need further testing, maybe by someone that plays with the fighters more than I do.
Another observation:
The BoP seem to be flying a lot like the Kar'Fi frigates going full speed in circles but as I posted before I'm not a fan of this style as it does not utilize the BoP abilities well. (Solution: New Doff mission! Execute BoP helmsman for bad piloting.)
Oh we could use the attack pattern I discussed in a earlier posting and name it "Attack Pattern Tal'Bog" in honor of the person that inspired it. Just kidding, well a little anyways.
Birds of Prey (only) use a special routine that causes them to make an attack run, then cloak and break off, then come about and attack again after getting some distance away. To'duj fighters don't have this routine, so their tendency will be to swarm targets at close range since their superior maneuverability allows them to keep their weapons on target and staying at close range is important when cannon damage drops off pretty sharply at long ranges.
J-man has been looking into a system that may cause ships to avoid other vessels that are about to have a warp core breach, but I don't know how far along this is.
Birds of Prey (only) use a special routine that causes them to make an attack run, then cloak and break off, then come about and attack again after getting some distance away. To'duj fighters don't have this routine, so their tendency will be to swarm targets at close range since their superior maneuverability allows them to keep their weapons on target and staying at close range is important when cannon damage drops off pretty sharply at long ranges.
J-man has been looking into a system that may cause ships to avoid other vessels that are about to have a warp core breach, but I don't know how far along this is.
Ah good that's being worked on I think every pet user even to the multi vectors and galaxy's with seperation will find this a great thing too since most of the time a borg cube pretty much wipes them all out.
I did just try them out a little. They seem to still be with the old AI and sit right on top of the target. BUT I did not see anything saying that the To'Dujs were getting worked on atm. Also I could not tell if they were avoiding the warp core breaches or not as they are right on top of the target. This will need further testing, maybe by someone that plays with the fighters more than I do.
Old behavior as in how? Would they attack normal ships? Perhaps I should re-iterate the fact that the To'Duj now seem to fail to attack normal ships like spheres and probes. Before whatever happened happened the To'Duj would attack (effectively) anything I pointed to other than the big gates, now they fail to attack just about anything...
JHeinig said that this was an issue with collision boxes or something, but whatever the problem is that does not allow them to attack LARGE objects (like the gates) seems to have gotten worse and now they won't attack (or rarely attack) normal ships.
Birds of Prey (only) use a special routine that causes them to make an attack run, then cloak and break off, then come about and attack again after getting some distance away.
And this routine is so /facepalm it just hurts to see it in action.
The BoP are ambush attack craft. Why the hell are they cloaking AFTER an attack run instead of cloaking TO attack?
I'll say it again: The BoP's attack run pattern was PERFECT before the torpedo damage nerf and before this new attack run routine was put in. The only thing you guys had to do was to SLOW them down once they decloaked so that they could keep their noses on target and fire the dual cannons for a change. The old attack run AI had the BoPs already break off at high speed when they passed the target & set up for another run.
The major bug that screwed it all up was the bug that borticus already fixed (of them picking up orders from other carriers)... and the only bug that needed to be fixed after that was to stop the BoP's from having more than 1 target (the one the carrier is ordering them to attack) in their hate list.
That is all that was needed. This new attack run pattern is terrible for the BoP, terrible for the carrier and worse yet, gives the player NO REASON to use the BoP over the ToDuj since this new attack run literally turns the BoP into a less maneuverable and far more vulnerable version of a toduj swarm.
To'duj fighters don't have this routine, so their tendency will be to swarm targets at close range since their superior maneuverability allows them to keep their weapons on target and staying at close range is important when cannon damage drops off pretty sharply at long ranges.
Correction: Cannon damage drops off to near zero past 100m. Same for the BoP. They are level 51 pets allegedly yet they seem to be equipped with mk 6 or 8 guns. WHY????
Anyone know exactly what it was that broke the To'Duj in the first place? Was it the attempted BoP fix that somehow inadvertently messed up the programming?
No one seems particularly concerned about the broken Fighters, only the BoPs. Is it only the To'Duj that are messed up? I've not had a chance to test the S'kul fighters yet, but I'll do that today.
Birds of Prey (only) use a special routine that causes them to make an attack run, then cloak and break off, then come about and attack again after getting some distance away. To'duj fighters don't have this routine, so their tendency will be to swarm targets at close range since their superior maneuverability allows them to keep their weapons on target and staying at close range is important when cannon damage drops off pretty sharply at long ranges.
J-man has been looking into a system that may cause ships to avoid other vessels that are about to have a warp core breach, but I don't know how far along this is.
Note: Im not a coder and the most coded I have ever done is PHP so I will get some terms wrong and apologize if some of my term are incorrect or suggestions are not doable within the reasonable coding realm.
Also todays post follows two Pi Canis runs one on the live and one on the test server so I can a control and a variable.
I do see the pattern for the attack pattern work from time to time but it is not always so and there is a major flaw in some part of it.
1. then cloak and break off The BoPs do not seem to doing this as much as they should and I have been trying to work out why.
- I think this brings up a question about the Battle Cloak they use and is it the same one the player ships use?
-Does this power have a cool down timer and is what why Im not seeing it work most of the time?
-If this is an issue of a cool down time can we have the timer removed or reduced to say 5 sec so it will trigger as needed. But if this is the same power as the player BoP uses you cant do that as it will change all the payer BoPs battle cloak so can we copy that code and just change the name to carrier BoP battle cloak so we can address the battle cloak issue.
2. Birds of Prey (only) use a special routine that causes them to make an attack run There is an issue in the code here on its order or trigger events. Here is the repeating scenario I encountered on my Pi Canis run today.
-Arrive on mission map
Wait to deploy BoP waves 1 &2 before doing anything else- Set carrier command to aggro
target single Fed patrol on Jam missions normally between 14km to 24km depending on mission
-Close to >15km from target and fire Bio-Neural Warhead, carrier enters Red Alert
- 10km ish BoPs enter Red Alert
- All BoPs combat AI are triggered and you can see visual powers activated my guess cannons rapied fire and Trops High Yeild and then they all accelerate to attack speed
-BoP 1 & 2 have accelerated to attack speed right around 10km but turn (left or right depending on where the enemy is) and move to another shield facing arc before closing on the target.
-BoP 3&4 turn slightly but head in generally the enemys direction starting their attack run but turn away (left or right depending on where the enemy is) from the target at about 7km to 5km and start accelerating in a large turn to restart the attack pattern.
- BoP 1&2 repeats what BoP 3&4 just did and BoP 3&4 repeats what BoP 1&2 originally did.
- BoPs seem to cloak after or on the second attack run
-Average disrupter damage was between 24 to 29 per hit vs shields.
-Current flight pattern makes little use of the duel cannons.
I have three issues with the pattern they are currently using.
1. The turn to flank the target when they are already at max range and in the best spot for a strafing run.
2. The turning away from the target at 7km to 5km instead of closer or even better flying past the target and then turning away.
3. If 1and 2 are fixed the BoP will be able to utilize the duel cannons better and we should see a good increase in DSP from them.
Thanks again for the hard work PS I did not see the tribble patch notes posted for today, did you all fix the stopping BoPs in combat as it did not happen to me today so far?
Anyone know exactly what it was that broke the To'Duj in the first place? Was it the attempted BoP fix that somehow inadvertently messed up the programming?
No one seems particularly concerned about the broken Fighters, only the BoPs. Is it only the To'Duj that are messed up? I've not had a chance to test the S'kul fighters yet, but I'll do that today.
Well seeing that the J-man and jheinig are working their backsides off to help us out and they maybe the only ones in the company right now that can be spared, I would give them a break.
Let them get one thing fixed correctly and then they can move onto something else like the fighter class ship AI.
Realize if we can get all the KDF carrier issues worked out and all the pets fixed you will have a much better chance of getting a FED carrier that I would also like to see. So just give it a little bit of time as we have two people working with us and willing to help us.
PS: Heretic I love you too so you don't feel left out.
They are level 51 pets allegedly yet they seem to be equipped with mk 6 or 8 guns. WHY????
I keep seeing folks say this, and I wanted to put this disinformation to rest.
All pets are given leveless gear. It scales exactly to their level. If you are level 51 using a carrier, then your pets will have level 51 (aka Mk X) gear.
The discrepancy you may be experiencing is in comparing their output to your own. They are a smaller craft that use different class damage tables, their "Mk X" gear is white with no mods, and they have no skills.
If they need to do more damage, then that is something we can control separately.
I keep seeing folks say this, and I wanted to put this disinformation to rest.
All pets are given leveless gear. It scales exactly to their level. If you are level 51 using a carrier, then your pets will have level 51 (aka Mk X) gear.
The discrepancy you may be experiencing is in comparing their output to your own. They are a smaller craft that use different class damage tables, their "Mk X" gear is white with no mods, and they have no skills.
If they need to do more damage, then that is something we can control separately.
Thanks J-man for the transparence on how the weapons work vs. rank.
I keep seeing folks say this, and I wanted to put this disinformation to rest.
All pets are given leveless gear. It scales exactly to their level. If you are level 51 using a carrier, then your pets will have level 51 (aka Mk X) gear.
The discrepancy you may be experiencing is in comparing their output to your own. They are a smaller craft that use different class damage tables, their "Mk X" gear is white with no mods, and they have no skills.
If they need to do more damage, then that is something we can control separately.
I don't have access to see what your side see's but as far as what they are actually doing with fighters for the most part it appears like they are just shooting with no weapons power at scaling turret strength against possible enemy resistances. For the most part it appears like they do not have any weapons power backing up those weapons.
Comments
Yes, at 125 AUX power the recharge times for most launchables is ridiculously low. Perhaps a ton of PvP carriers have their AUX maxed out, however I doubt it. I for one usually have it set around 65-75 which does not give the siphon drones a recharge of anywhere close to 15 seconds. I wish it did :^D. However at those power levels it's around 25-29 seconds.
Otherwise I agree that they are a bit powerful, but they can't be spammed easily (unless someone diverts all power to AUX, but then they'd take away from their own shield and weapon power. They could pop an AUX battery, but the effects don't last really long and the cool down for batteries is ridiculous.
-Quiiliitiila
You've not known this?
If you try to send BoP's to attack any target that is outside of 10k from the carrier they do the same thing...that is fly off to the other side of the map and attack some random target.
You have to get inside 10k and attack something yourself, then order them to attack.
After the last patch even this has gotten worse, even if you are inside 10k and firing on the target 'some' of them will still fly off to who knows where instead of attacking your target.
Thanks!
Any info on why the fighters got messed up?
-Quiiliitiila
1. Certain enemy geometry pieces interact oddly with our pet controls, which means that some entities with Really Big Geo (Borg gates, B'Ger, etc.) can become untargetable to pets. I've set up some detailed bug analysis of this and sent it over to other folks on the team who can hopefully address it.
2. There was a leftover piece of code from an older control subroutine that was throwing fighters into an unkillable state. This will now be fixed (when this update goes live).
3. In certain circumstances an entity's targeting data can be cleared, and if the entity then tries to attack or follow this "non-target" it will wind up flying off to who knows where.
4. The 10km-12km range will always be a bit problematic because it's a range where you can send fighters, but the enemies do not have the ability to attack you. This means that its functionality works a little bit differently than most of our combat powers.
Anyway, I'm just about done tightening the screws on some of the AI controls (currently testing a case where my BoPs are with me in the midst of a swarm of enemy fighters and frigates, but they aren't switching to target the fighters when in Intercept mode).
Bonus: I set up a control update so that all space pets following you will (at last) not fall behind when you go to Full Impulse. This includes separated saucers.
YES, so hopefully the fighters will target gates and whatnot! Sweet.
However, they've also stopped targeting normal enemies and when they do they are rather... lame and lethargic. Is this intentional as a balance issue or is it another problem?
Thanks,
Quiiliitiila
odd since if you click on the pets they will have the gate and other large objects targeted & will fly up to licking range. They certainly are targeting them. They just ain't shooting or entering whatever combat mode it needs to switch to
I've never seen this happen at all. The only times pets fly off for no reason is when they go after another target far away (pick up aggro list from team or pet on its own picks up a target far away) or when they were receiving inputs from multiple sources (the bug that Borticus fixed recently). But they always, always had a target and always flew to it.
A clarification: you cannot send pets at 12km. They will take off and shoot something other than what you're telling them to. The only time they will obey a beyond 10km but under 12km order is if your ship has already entered combat with that target and target flies out of 10km range.
In short, if I acquire a target at 12km and I haven't fired on it ..and I tell pets to attack they will not do it. They will fly off and attack whatever is on their hate list (as in, not the target I want them to shoot!).
I agree however that beyond 10km range orders may lead to exploits. However, if NPC's can be made to consider the pets #1 priority targets that would not only compensate for the beyond retaliation range attack ability (as pets have a good chance of dying en-route and in-combat as they are attacked as soon as they enter 10km) but it also adds a teamwork functionality to a beyond 10km range carrier: crowd control.
You may have vastly underestimated the tractor repulsor ability then.
I put repulsors on all my ships. Drones die to 25 aux power setting repulsor 1 so you dont need any aux battery. Repulsor is an excellent multipurpose tool: If you're tractored you can push them away and their tractor beam gets cut off. You can tractor drones and in-your-face ships away from you...this is particularly good for cruisers as its easier to bring guns to bear on a target 8km than one 3km away; it makes you immune to heavy torpedoes and drones and, if used with evasive maneuvers, can really damage the hull of a ship.
I will tell you again, as a carrier and as someone that uses repulsors all the time: They are what make you completely immune to drones.
Thats your opinion. In any case I mentioned spread because it does insta-kill a drain drone swarm coming at you.
You're supposed to use it before the drones get to you. If you had repulsors you wouldnt need to but if you dont have repulsors you can just do evasives or set engine power to high and outrun them as you kill them. Drain drones are VERY slow.
No, the issue is you whining about what they do when the drain drones reach you. You are being told multiple ways to eliminate them before they get to you and also how to kill them in the first few seconds it takes for them to shut you down. Just like any other ability, they have several counters. Just because none are one that you find fit your build is more indicative of a problem on your end than it being an issue with the drain drones themselves.
Use that tractor repulsor. Learn it, love it, abuse it.
That makes me wonder about a possible similar occurrence that deals with the erikson system for KDF pi canis sortie bravo. Is the medical station count as one big object? I know the target able portions of it do not seem that big to the naked unemployed by cryptic eye but they react the same when you target those 2 parts of the station for the mission. Also there is a limited arc in which the player can actually target these as well. I've just always figured that the borg gates, cubes, v'ger, as well as the medical station had a shared problem. Or it could be something totally different for all I know lol.
Why are the BoPs not coded to fly out to 7km from the target and begin attack run? Turn to face target at 30% speed and accelerate to 70% when angled in to the target, fly past the target at maybe 10 degrees off target (random generate the 360 angle) so it does not run into the target. After reaching 1km or 2km from target add a short delay timed script of 3sec/5sec delay and then cloak, turn at 30% speed to directly away from target and then accelerate to 100% speed. Then loop pattern.
Can we replace the carrier command aggresive?
Suggestion- Change the aggressive from a toggle to a button with a buff/debuff depending on the definition that it assigns 100% agro to that selected target and linked to your pets.
-The idea behind this is that you have given fleet command order and you as a captain can work on other thing as in target or healing and then go back to managing the pets. This provides a fluff reason and tactical advantage.
Can we get the recall range changed to 20km so we can get our pets back when they get well outside our poor 10km command range? I can see a way that a recall command can get abused beyond that fact I can get my pets to help me but that is a the current handicap.
I have been seeing that the toduj fighters seems to act worse in the 0% health zombie mode then the BoPs do. They seem to attack at a slower rate when they are at the 0% health mode.
These are just a few things I have been thinking about and dealing with over the week or so.
I took my To'Duj fighters out today in Infected space and sent them after a nanite sphere. Only one torp was shot and then the all just sat there looking at it. I felt like a third wheel and I could tell my team mates were less than happy about it.
Hopefully the To'Duj get fixed soon, it's getting annoying.
-Quiiliitiila
Again, the inability to target some of the objects in STFs is not AI; it's related to how internal engine targeting interacts with collision geometry. It is under investigation, as I've forwarded it to the appropriate folks.
If you check the Tribble patchnotes you'll see that some additional bulletproofing is on the test server and should be live soon.
My apologies, I misspoke. Thank you for the update and I'll be sure to look at those patch notes (If I can find em... :^D)
-Quiiliitiila
1.Here are a few things I have noticed.
2.Zombie free! Pets no longer get to the 0% health zombie state.
3.Full impulse The BoP can keep up with your ship now.
4.Follow They now cloak when set to follow, a nice little touch so great job.
Issues I still see:
1.BoP stops in the middle of combat for several seconds between 7 and 10 was my average count.
2.BoP seems to act goofy when you launch them sometimes with a stutter motion.
3.On aggressive they went 25km to help of my Aceton Assimilators that was under attack by Borg also they take time to return to formation.
4.BoPs are no longer avoiding warp core explosions. (correction - new flight pattern just keeps them far enough away to simply avoid them 70% of the time but they did try to avoid a cube's explosion so it still works.)
5.Full Impulse The BoP go to full speed even if they are facing the wrong direction and will travel outside of max viewing range. (Solution is to reduce turn speed or even better increase turn rate).
Any testing with the fighters?
Thanks for the update, as I just now realized I had taken off Tribble a month or two ago without realizing it...
-Quiiliitiila
* Fighters/Birds of Prey on Attack mode will only return to formation after they have exited combat. This usually takes a few seconds after the last enemy is destroyed. So, once a fight ends, they'll hang out for a bit, then make their way back to formation.
* On launch, fighters are inactive for a couple of seconds because of some of the handoffs that the system makes in the process of spawning them. Think of this as the AI "warming up."
Very cool, that clears that up and not to big of a deal.
I did just try them out a little. They seem to still be with the old AI and sit right on top of the target. BUT I did not see anything saying that the To'Dujs were getting worked on atm. Also I could not tell if they were avoiding the warp core breaches or not as they are right on top of the target. This will need further testing, maybe by someone that plays with the fighters more than I do.
Another observation:
The BoP seem to be flying a lot like the Kar'Fi frigates going full speed in circles but as I posted before I'm not a fan of this style as it does not utilize the BoP abilities well. (Solution: New Doff mission! Execute BoP helmsman for bad piloting.)
Oh we could use the attack pattern I discussed in a earlier posting and name it "Attack Pattern Tal'Bog" in honor of the person that inspired it.
J-man has been looking into a system that may cause ships to avoid other vessels that are about to have a warp core breach, but I don't know how far along this is.
Ah good that's being worked on I think every pet user even to the multi vectors and galaxy's with seperation will find this a great thing too since most of the time a borg cube pretty much wipes them all out.
Old behavior as in how? Would they attack normal ships? Perhaps I should re-iterate the fact that the To'Duj now seem to fail to attack normal ships like spheres and probes. Before whatever happened happened the To'Duj would attack (effectively) anything I pointed to other than the big gates, now they fail to attack just about anything...
JHeinig said that this was an issue with collision boxes or something, but whatever the problem is that does not allow them to attack LARGE objects (like the gates) seems to have gotten worse and now they won't attack (or rarely attack) normal ships.
Hope that clears up my concerns.
-Quiiliitiila
And this routine is so /facepalm it just hurts to see it in action.
The BoP are ambush attack craft. Why the hell are they cloaking AFTER an attack run instead of cloaking TO attack?
I'll say it again: The BoP's attack run pattern was PERFECT before the torpedo damage nerf and before this new attack run routine was put in. The only thing you guys had to do was to SLOW them down once they decloaked so that they could keep their noses on target and fire the dual cannons for a change. The old attack run AI had the BoPs already break off at high speed when they passed the target & set up for another run.
The major bug that screwed it all up was the bug that borticus already fixed (of them picking up orders from other carriers)... and the only bug that needed to be fixed after that was to stop the BoP's from having more than 1 target (the one the carrier is ordering them to attack) in their hate list.
That is all that was needed. This new attack run pattern is terrible for the BoP, terrible for the carrier and worse yet, gives the player NO REASON to use the BoP over the ToDuj since this new attack run literally turns the BoP into a less maneuverable and far more vulnerable version of a toduj swarm.
Correction: Cannon damage drops off to near zero past 100m. Same for the BoP. They are level 51 pets allegedly yet they seem to be equipped with mk 6 or 8 guns. WHY????
No one seems particularly concerned about the broken Fighters, only the BoPs. Is it only the To'Duj that are messed up? I've not had a chance to test the S'kul fighters yet, but I'll do that today.
Also todays post follows two Pi Canis runs one on the live and one on the test server so I can a control and a variable.
I do see the pattern for the attack pattern work from time to time but it is not always so and there is a major flaw in some part of it.
1. then cloak and break off The BoPs do not seem to doing this as much as they should and I have been trying to work out why.
- I think this brings up a question about the Battle Cloak they use and is it the same one the player ships use?
-Does this power have a cool down timer and is what why Im not seeing it work most of the time?
-If this is an issue of a cool down time can we have the timer removed or reduced to say 5 sec so it will trigger as needed. But if this is the same power as the player BoP uses you cant do that as it will change all the payer BoPs battle cloak so can we copy that code and just change the name to carrier BoP battle cloak so we can address the battle cloak issue.
2. Birds of Prey (only) use a special routine that causes them to make an attack run There is an issue in the code here on its order or trigger events. Here is the repeating scenario I encountered on my Pi Canis run today.
-Arrive on mission map
Wait to deploy BoP waves 1 &2 before doing anything else- Set carrier command to aggro
target single Fed patrol on Jam missions normally between 14km to 24km depending on mission
-Close to >15km from target and fire Bio-Neural Warhead, carrier enters Red Alert
- 10km ish BoPs enter Red Alert
- All BoPs combat AI are triggered and you can see visual powers activated my guess cannons rapied fire and Trops High Yeild and then they all accelerate to attack speed
-BoP 1 & 2 have accelerated to attack speed right around 10km but turn (left or right depending on where the enemy is) and move to another shield facing arc before closing on the target.
-BoP 3&4 turn slightly but head in generally the enemys direction starting their attack run but turn away (left or right depending on where the enemy is) from the target at about 7km to 5km and start accelerating in a large turn to restart the attack pattern.
- BoP 1&2 repeats what BoP 3&4 just did and BoP 3&4 repeats what BoP 1&2 originally did.
- BoPs seem to cloak after or on the second attack run
-Average disrupter damage was between 24 to 29 per hit vs shields.
-Current flight pattern makes little use of the duel cannons.
I have three issues with the pattern they are currently using.
1. The turn to flank the target when they are already at max range and in the best spot for a strafing run.
2. The turning away from the target at 7km to 5km instead of closer or even better flying past the target and then turning away.
3. If 1and 2 are fixed the BoP will be able to utilize the duel cannons better and we should see a good increase in DSP from them.
Thanks again for the hard work PS I did not see the tribble patch notes posted for today, did you all fix the stopping BoPs in combat as it did not happen to me today so far?
Well seeing that the J-man and jheinig are working their backsides off to help us out and they maybe the only ones in the company right now that can be spared, I would give them a break.
Let them get one thing fixed correctly and then they can move onto something else like the fighter class ship AI.
Realize if we can get all the KDF carrier issues worked out and all the pets fixed you will have a much better chance of getting a FED carrier that I would also like to see. So just give it a little bit of time as we have two people working with us and willing to help us.
PS: Heretic I love you too so you don't feel left out.
I keep seeing folks say this, and I wanted to put this disinformation to rest.
All pets are given leveless gear. It scales exactly to their level. If you are level 51 using a carrier, then your pets will have level 51 (aka Mk X) gear.
The discrepancy you may be experiencing is in comparing their output to your own. They are a smaller craft that use different class damage tables, their "Mk X" gear is white with no mods, and they have no skills.
If they need to do more damage, then that is something we can control separately.
Thanks J-man for the transparence on how the weapons work vs. rank.
I don't have access to see what your side see's but as far as what they are actually doing with fighters for the most part it appears like they are just shooting with no weapons power at scaling turret strength against possible enemy resistances. For the most part it appears like they do not have any weapons power backing up those weapons.