The show revolved around the main characters ..... for the Klingon's it was Warf and B'Elanna through their experiences with their Federation counter parts we could project a future Klingon universe where the
Klingon's and Federation would be as I have suggested. What I am postulating is their ideas and dreams. what they perceived the Klingon Empire should be about. Someone said," The characters of Worf, B'Lanna, were about separation from ones roots, being alone in a crowd, about being different and the struggle within to live and cope with that." I agree with that, but they also had Ideas of the changes that needed to be made. If I were white and was separated from them and grew up around blacks once I returned to my own would I be the same? Couldn't I see the injustices of my own people more clearly? Wouldn't I have a better understanding of the changes that needed to be made for the two to come together in common brotherhood? This is the perspective I see coming from the shows portrayal of Warf and B'Elanna. I am a dreamer of sorts I can perceive Warf and B'Elanna's heart-felt desire for a changed Empire and I tried to convey that in these OP's. So therefore you cannot cling to your Klingon lore, open your mind as Warf and B'Elanna did and learn to change ... for through interaction with the Federation .... you cannot help but to see Pacard's and Janeway's total devotion to you.
Feds = Majority: Passive
Klingons = Majority: Aggressive but through Warf and B'Elanna passive
First off, B'Elanna was only HALF Klingon, and she was actively trying to distance herself from that side of her. She tried to shun Klingon culture and everything that it stood for. Even then, she still felt the pull, as Katic pointed out.
Secondly, Worf (NOT Warf) is a Klingon through-and-through. While he is a Starfleet officer, we have seen him (on multiple occasions) defy Picard or Sisko in order to help his people out. We actually see a LOT of the Klingon culture reflected through his eyes and are all the better for it. We see things like the Right of Vengeance (when he kills Duras despite what Starfleet code says), the Death Yell (sending the honored dead to Sto-Vo-Kor), discommendation (when he accepts the dishonor wrongfully put on his House due to Duras' treachery in order to save the Empire from falling to ruins)...and many more examples.
He turns his back on Starfleet not once, but at least twice, when Starfleet refuses to see the threat posed to the galaxy and rejoins his people. I think that it was Worf who influenced the Federation, NOT the other way around.
I just have to chime in on this, I agree with K-Tar, I've run a Fleet over on the KDF side since launch, and every time a player bothers to inform me of why they're leaving, more than half the time it's because of lack of content.
Yes but th but again, the FACTION SYSTEM NOT WORKING is the very basic REASON FOR THE LACK OF CONTENT. For multible reasons. I explained most of them above.
There are limited resources for developing content, and a faction wich only 18% even bothered to TRY in the first place will not get the attention needet to build a full faction with exclusive content.
The key is shared content and how that would work.... well I explained one way already in that thread, several others are to find all over that forum.
and 95 % of the content we got since launch IS shared content, we just dont get the feds exclusives and thats why we have AND KEEP HAVING far less content by the way.
Perfect world or not, that will not change. And for the very reason the OP statet, you might say it shouldnt: Klingons are, like it or not, in the greach scheme of "Roddenberrys vision", not that important.
Yes but th but again, the FACTION SYSTEM NOT WORKING is the very basic REASON FOR THE LACK OF CONTENT. For multible reasons. I explained most of them above.
We have a chicken and the Egg problem here.
K-Tar and I believe the Faction system works, but lack of KDF content has hurt the KDF a great deal.
You say the Faction System is broken, and that is why the KDF has suffered a population problem, and that that population problem is why the KDF haven't gotten content.
So let me ask you this: If Atari had followed the desires of the Devs, and allowed another year of development before launching the game, and the KDF had launched with equivalent content to the Feds, do you think we'd still have the KDF population problem we have now? Do you think the Faction system would have doomed them even with full content?
I don't. I think the Faction system is a fine model, and that the majority of KDF players enjoy being in the KDF, and would hate being shoved into the UFP, or forced to play Feds because the KDF Faction is dissolved.
I think Atari, and the funding/team size/overtime limitations they put on Cryptic are the primary reason behind the KDF being under-supported.
I think Atari pushed the game early because of their financial issues, and that that shafted the KDF, I think that Atari saw the KDF as a stepchild faction, and favored a quick buck over the long term viability of the game.
I think Perfect World, who don't have the same problems financially, are taking the long view, and will do their best to bring the KDF up to par, in order to draw players who enjoy PvP and Faction rivalries into the fold.
And I think every Dev post and interview I've seen or heard since the PW acquisition is backing me up on this.
Yes but th but again, the FACTION SYSTEM NOT WORKING is the very basic REASON FOR THE LACK OF CONTENT
the faction system works just fine. that has nothing to do with the lack of content. the lack of content is occurring because cryptic doesn't bother assigning development resources to it. it has nothing to do with the system itself.
Originally Posted by Triangulum_Phoenix
I agree with that, but they also had Ideas of the changes that needed to be made. If I were white and was separated from them and grew up around blacks once I returned to my own would I be the same? Couldn't I see the injustices of my own people more clearly?
whoa hold on RIGHT there missy. stop with the racism. watch who you accuse of 'injustices'
so far you have been both sexist and racist in this thread. neither is acceptable.
I thought that making the Klingon Faction unlocked at level 25 was so they could work on making more content for Klingon levels 0-24.
I'm probably the rarity, but I liked grinding my KDF toon to Brig General. I'm used to grinding levels in the Final Fantasy games, so doing this on a Klingon was no problem.
the faction system works just fine. that has nothing to do with the lack of content. the lack of content is occurring because cryptic doesn't bother assigning development resources to it. it has nothing to do with the system itself.
Is that really that hard to understand?
Cryptic isnt devoting resources tehre because less then 18 % care playing. And thats why the faction system doesnt work. It has ALL to do with it.
Is that really that hard to understand?
Cryptic isnt devoting resources tehre because less then 18 % care playing. And thats why the faction system doesnt work. It has ALL to do with it.
you don't have a clue what you are talking about
first off, the whole 'cryptic doesn't devote development resources because there are x amount of people playing is a circular bs argument that cryptic themselves started to justify ignoring a faction. its state is very much intentional. just like it takes money to make money, it takes resources to improve a faction. resources that cryptic has not put towards the kdf by their own choice.
there is nothing wrong with the faction system itself. there is something wrong with the faction. those are two completely different things. that problem is intentional underdevelopment
and 'only 18% of the players play them' is not a valid argument. not to mention the fact that 18% is just about 1 in 5 players playing klingons. thats alot of people. in fact if you were to put the number of players at 100,000 that would be 20,000. when you look at it that way its a bit more in perspective
it should go without saying that the development hell the kdf is currently in was a result of intention and deliberate actions, and is very much correctable, if appropriate development resources are allocated to improving the faction instead of cstore TRIBBLE and fed stuff.
in short: the faction system itself has absolutely nothing to do with it.
As for your implication that the Klingons as a culture need to change, I guess you need to change their psychology and physiology as well? Yeah, people know not all Klinks are warriors, but MOST OF THEM are aggressive first, or want to fight and participate in battle. It is the opposite of what your picture-perfect Federation is, with only a few Feds seeking power and glory, but most being passive. Lemme demonstrate:
We look through a veiled glass<
I have parted that veil
Yet proper use of the quote function remains elusive...
The show revolved around the main characters ..... for the Klingon's it was Warf and B'Elanna through their experiences with their Federation counter parts we could project a future Klingon universe where the Klingon's and Federation would be as I have suggested.
WRONG
Worf was often shown as impulsive and combative. He disobeyed orders on more than one occasion due to Klingon tradition on views of what is and is not Honorable <--- BOTH of which were clearly shown as extremely different what standard feds understood. B'elana - despite her acting as if she is full human - was also presented in a similar fashion, and they were both raised in a society which was in contrast to what Klingons are. That fact is never lost in how they are portrayed.
What I am postulating is their ideas and dreams. what they perceived the Klingon Empire should be about.
And you are doing it in a very human manner. So much for "parting the veil."
Someone said," The characters of Worf, B'Lanna, were about separation from ones roots, being alone in a crowd, about being different and the struggle within to live and cope with that." I agree with that, but they also had Ideas of the changes that needed to be made. If I were white and was separated from them and grew up around blacks once I returned to my own would I be the same? Couldn't I see the injustices of my own people more clearly? Wouldn't I have a better understanding of the changes that needed to be made for the two to come together in common brotherhood?
Klingons are alien and experienced and alien invasion in their past, thus their psychology and how they view themselves and their place in the universe is going to be different.
This is the perspective I see coming from the shows portrayal of Warf and B'Elanna. I am a dreamer of sorts I can perceive Warf and B'Elanna's heart-felt desire for a changed Empire and I tried to convey that in these OP's.
Excuse me, but where do they ever talk about changing the nature of the Klingon Empire? In what shows?
So therefore you cannot cling to your Klingon lore, open your mind as Warf and B'Elanna did and learn to change ... for through interaction with the Federation .... you cannot help but to see Pacard's and Janeway's total devotion to you.
Why are you sounding like a religious cult member?
Anyways, I think maybe you need to rewatch the shows? Worf was all about honor and loyalty to House Martok. Worf was all about battle and fighting when the opportunities presented themselves. B'elana was half human, yet still aggressive and sought battle when challenged. There is a pattern they follow, and it's the path to battle and glory that is in the HEART of every Klingon. You do not understand the heart of a Klingon. You used humans as an example for something - well, part your veil again and look up "bushido." The way of the samurai is as close as you will get to understanding the Klingon heart and why they feel the way they do. The Japanese samurai culture was forced to change because they were defeated in WW II.
The Klingons have not been defeated AND would rather die than turn into a society of Federation sheep and goats...
Feds = Majority: Passive
Klingons = Majority: Aggressive but through Warf and B'Elanna passive
WRONG
Worf and B'elana were aggressive people who oftem or sometimes tried to keep themselves in check due to circumstance and career choices. And even then, their Klingon ancestry could not be contained. You need to part that veil a little more, I think....
So let me ask you this: If Atari had followed the desires of the Devs, and allowed another year of development before launching the game, and the KDF had launched with equivalent content to the Feds, do you think we'd still have the KDF population problem we have now? Do you think the Faction system would have doomed them even with full content?
It's all about content, content, content. If we had even HALF of what the Federation had at launch, the KDF would be in much better shape than it was. So many of us left due to the fact that there was almost nothing to do. Even with 8 faction specific missions and the 15 (or so) faction agnostic FE missions, we still have very little compared to them.
I think that the faction system works just fine. It worked in WoW. It worked in CoX. And it works just fine in STO. It's the handling of the faction that has made people leave in droves.
The only thing broken here is Cryptic's promises towards the red-side. And with PW's acquisition, I do sincerely hope that they finally deliver. However, due to their track record, I'm not holding my breath.
Is that really that hard to understand?
Cryptic isnt devoting resources tehre because less then 18 % care playing. And thats why the faction system doesnt work. It has ALL to do with it.
Chicken and egg argument...or Catch-22, if you will. The reason that there are only "18%" playing KDF is because there's no resources being devoted to it. They weren't spending resources with the KDF because only "18%" were playing it. Is THAT too hard to understand?!
The Klingon content will come in time. What no one here realizes is there is alot of interest in Klingon culture
and such right now. A large resurgence since the last film. I am a member of two real Klingon fan clubs
The Klingon Assault Group and The Klingon Alliance International.
It would be a good thing if you took a look at things we do. Also the Klingon Language institute.
I for on not only play on the Klingon side here but do conventions and such as well.
Please look at the site Klingonspace. Look up the name Marok I post alot of con photos there.
As a lifetime subscriber I will wait for the content to eventually come out.
Oh yes and here in Chicago this winter of Klingon Assualt Group Chapter is helping to support play called " "A Klingon Christmas Carol" a story about courage and honor. Take the time to meet us at cons
and events we have alot to offer.
Chaessie's points are what have me baffled. I remember at launch when there were a lot more people playing KDF, there were multiple instances of Qo'nos, and Qo'nos chat ticked by almost as fast as ESD chat. The only thing I can say is Cryptic is known for single faction games, and Atari was starving Cryptic from funds to have a robust enough crew to actually maintain two factions.
I remember when, not long ago, the only 13% number got kicked around. They add a little contant, (First City revamp), now it's an only 18% play KDF number.
Argue against it all you will but the math suggests, (with a 5% increase), that if you make it KDF will play it and will grow for it.
As for PWI/PWE yeah I suspect they will actually grow KDF content. Their basic model runs on the two faction system with PvP to supplement and maintain end game population.
With luck we will see what Cryptic can do in the not too distant future.
Is that really that hard to understand?
Cryptic isnt devoting resources tehre because less then 18 % care playing. And thats why the faction system doesnt work. It has ALL to do with it.
I think they never really made it clear if there were only 18% of PLAYERS who had made a KDF char or only 18% total KDF chars. Even if it's players, that's no wonder since it's the "PvP faction" people go where the content is, period.
[...]
Sorry, but that reasoning doesn't work. Klingons are better fleshed out than the Horde was at the end of Frozen Throne. Still Blizzard managed to make enough content for now 85 levels as far as I know. Not only that, each faction has multiple starting areas that cover around 20 levels. If they had delivered a whole Klingon faction on release it would be healthy now. Certainly smaller than the Federation, but that the Horde was smaller didn't get Blizzard to neglect them either.
You are constantly repeating the same baseless arguments. If there weren't enough Klingon fans games like Star Trek: Klingon, Klingon Academy and Klingon Honour Guard never would have been made. The lack of Klingon players (or characters, you haven't proven that one either) has everything to do with the fact that there's nothing to do. Would you go to an amusement park if everybody tells you that 90% of the rides are still under construction and the food has worms in it? Nope. And if you make a Klingon to find out by yourself, what are you going to do with that character? Delete and roll a Fed. Character slots cost money here.
Perfect world or not, that will not change. And for the very reason the OP statet, you might say it shouldnt: Klingons are, like it or not, in the greach scheme of "Roddenberrys vision", not that important.
You mean like Aurra Sing, Quinlan Vos, Boba Fett and tons of other unimportant background characters in Star Wars that got their own books? What Roddenberry originally wanted has been diluted beyond repair since DS9 anyway. Klingons are what they are now. The Star Trek Species with the biggest fandom.
first off, the whole 'cryptic doesn't devote development resources because there are x amount of people playing is a circular bs argument that cryptic themselves started to justify ignoring a faction. its state is very much intentional. just like it takes money to make money, it takes resources to improve a faction. resources that cryptic has not put towards the kdf by their own choice.
QFE. You can't expect people to fill a stadium before booking a band either.
Comments
First off, B'Elanna was only HALF Klingon, and she was actively trying to distance herself from that side of her. She tried to shun Klingon culture and everything that it stood for. Even then, she still felt the pull, as Katic pointed out.
Secondly, Worf (NOT Warf) is a Klingon through-and-through. While he is a Starfleet officer, we have seen him (on multiple occasions) defy Picard or Sisko in order to help his people out. We actually see a LOT of the Klingon culture reflected through his eyes and are all the better for it. We see things like the Right of Vengeance (when he kills Duras despite what Starfleet code says), the Death Yell (sending the honored dead to Sto-Vo-Kor), discommendation (when he accepts the dishonor wrongfully put on his House due to Duras' treachery in order to save the Empire from falling to ruins)...and many more examples.
He turns his back on Starfleet not once, but at least twice, when Starfleet refuses to see the threat posed to the galaxy and rejoins his people. I think that it was Worf who influenced the Federation, NOT the other way around.
Wow. I bow to your humbleness. :rolleyes:
Yes but th but again, the FACTION SYSTEM NOT WORKING is the very basic REASON FOR THE LACK OF CONTENT. For multible reasons. I explained most of them above.
There are limited resources for developing content, and a faction wich only 18% even bothered to TRY in the first place will not get the attention needet to build a full faction with exclusive content.
The key is shared content and how that would work.... well I explained one way already in that thread, several others are to find all over that forum.
and 95 % of the content we got since launch IS shared content, we just dont get the feds exclusives and thats why we have AND KEEP HAVING far less content by the way.
Perfect world or not, that will not change. And for the very reason the OP statet, you might say it shouldnt: Klingons are, like it or not, in the greach scheme of "Roddenberrys vision", not that important.
We have a chicken and the Egg problem here.
K-Tar and I believe the Faction system works, but lack of KDF content has hurt the KDF a great deal.
You say the Faction System is broken, and that is why the KDF has suffered a population problem, and that that population problem is why the KDF haven't gotten content.
So let me ask you this: If Atari had followed the desires of the Devs, and allowed another year of development before launching the game, and the KDF had launched with equivalent content to the Feds, do you think we'd still have the KDF population problem we have now? Do you think the Faction system would have doomed them even with full content?
I don't. I think the Faction system is a fine model, and that the majority of KDF players enjoy being in the KDF, and would hate being shoved into the UFP, or forced to play Feds because the KDF Faction is dissolved.
I think Atari, and the funding/team size/overtime limitations they put on Cryptic are the primary reason behind the KDF being under-supported.
I think Atari pushed the game early because of their financial issues, and that that shafted the KDF, I think that Atari saw the KDF as a stepchild faction, and favored a quick buck over the long term viability of the game.
I think Perfect World, who don't have the same problems financially, are taking the long view, and will do their best to bring the KDF up to par, in order to draw players who enjoy PvP and Faction rivalries into the fold.
And I think every Dev post and interview I've seen or heard since the PW acquisition is backing me up on this.
the faction system works just fine. that has nothing to do with the lack of content. the lack of content is occurring because cryptic doesn't bother assigning development resources to it. it has nothing to do with the system itself.
whoa hold on RIGHT there missy. stop with the racism. watch who you accuse of 'injustices'
so far you have been both sexist and racist in this thread. neither is acceptable.
I'm probably the rarity, but I liked grinding my KDF toon to Brig General. I'm used to grinding levels in the Final Fantasy games, so doing this on a Klingon was no problem.
Is that really that hard to understand?
Cryptic isnt devoting resources tehre because less then 18 % care playing. And thats why the faction system doesnt work. It has ALL to do with it.
you don't have a clue what you are talking about
first off, the whole 'cryptic doesn't devote development resources because there are x amount of people playing is a circular bs argument that cryptic themselves started to justify ignoring a faction. its state is very much intentional. just like it takes money to make money, it takes resources to improve a faction. resources that cryptic has not put towards the kdf by their own choice.
there is nothing wrong with the faction system itself. there is something wrong with the faction. those are two completely different things. that problem is intentional underdevelopment
and 'only 18% of the players play them' is not a valid argument. not to mention the fact that 18% is just about 1 in 5 players playing klingons. thats alot of people. in fact if you were to put the number of players at 100,000 that would be 20,000. when you look at it that way its a bit more in perspective
it should go without saying that the development hell the kdf is currently in was a result of intention and deliberate actions, and is very much correctable, if appropriate development resources are allocated to improving the faction instead of cstore TRIBBLE and fed stuff.
in short: the faction system itself has absolutely nothing to do with it.
WRONG
Worf was often shown as impulsive and combative. He disobeyed orders on more than one occasion due to Klingon tradition on views of what is and is not Honorable <--- BOTH of which were clearly shown as extremely different what standard feds understood. B'elana - despite her acting as if she is full human - was also presented in a similar fashion, and they were both raised in a society which was in contrast to what Klingons are. That fact is never lost in how they are portrayed.
And you are doing it in a very human manner. So much for "parting the veil."
Klingons are alien and experienced and alien invasion in their past, thus their psychology and how they view themselves and their place in the universe is going to be different.
Excuse me, but where do they ever talk about changing the nature of the Klingon Empire? In what shows?
Why are you sounding like a religious cult member?
Anyways, I think maybe you need to rewatch the shows? Worf was all about honor and loyalty to House Martok. Worf was all about battle and fighting when the opportunities presented themselves. B'elana was half human, yet still aggressive and sought battle when challenged. There is a pattern they follow, and it's the path to battle and glory that is in the HEART of every Klingon. You do not understand the heart of a Klingon. You used humans as an example for something - well, part your veil again and look up "bushido." The way of the samurai is as close as you will get to understanding the Klingon heart and why they feel the way they do. The Japanese samurai culture was forced to change because they were defeated in WW II.
The Klingons have not been defeated AND would rather die than turn into a society of Federation sheep and goats...
WRONG
Worf and B'elana were aggressive people who oftem or sometimes tried to keep themselves in check due to circumstance and career choices. And even then, their Klingon ancestry could not be contained. You need to part that veil a little more, I think....
It's all about content, content, content. If we had even HALF of what the Federation had at launch, the KDF would be in much better shape than it was. So many of us left due to the fact that there was almost nothing to do. Even with 8 faction specific missions and the 15 (or so) faction agnostic FE missions, we still have very little compared to them.
I think that the faction system works just fine. It worked in WoW. It worked in CoX. And it works just fine in STO. It's the handling of the faction that has made people leave in droves.
The only thing broken here is Cryptic's promises towards the red-side. And with PW's acquisition, I do sincerely hope that they finally deliver. However, due to their track record, I'm not holding my breath.
Chicken and egg argument...or Catch-22, if you will. The reason that there are only "18%" playing KDF is because there's no resources being devoted to it. They weren't spending resources with the KDF because only "18%" were playing it. Is THAT too hard to understand?!
and such right now. A large resurgence since the last film. I am a member of two real Klingon fan clubs
The Klingon Assault Group and The Klingon Alliance International.
It would be a good thing if you took a look at things we do. Also the Klingon Language institute.
I for on not only play on the Klingon side here but do conventions and such as well.
Please look at the site Klingonspace. Look up the name Marok I post alot of con photos there.
As a lifetime subscriber I will wait for the content to eventually come out.
Oh yes and here in Chicago this winter of Klingon Assualt Group Chapter is helping to support play called " "A Klingon Christmas Carol" a story about courage and honor. Take the time to meet us at cons
and events we have alot to offer.
Qapla Batlh Je! (Success and Honor)
Marok
I remember when, not long ago, the only 13% number got kicked around. They add a little contant, (First City revamp), now it's an only 18% play KDF number.
Argue against it all you will but the math suggests, (with a 5% increase), that if you make it KDF will play it and will grow for it.
As for PWI/PWE yeah I suspect they will actually grow KDF content. Their basic model runs on the two faction system with PvP to supplement and maintain end game population.
With luck we will see what Cryptic can do in the not too distant future.
Hmmm....
You are constantly repeating the same baseless arguments. If there weren't enough Klingon fans games like Star Trek: Klingon, Klingon Academy and Klingon Honour Guard never would have been made. The lack of Klingon players (or characters, you haven't proven that one either) has everything to do with the fact that there's nothing to do. Would you go to an amusement park if everybody tells you that 90% of the rides are still under construction and the food has worms in it? Nope. And if you make a Klingon to find out by yourself, what are you going to do with that character? Delete and roll a Fed. Character slots cost money here.
You mean like Aurra Sing, Quinlan Vos, Boba Fett and tons of other unimportant background characters in Star Wars that got their own books? What Roddenberry originally wanted has been diluted beyond repair since DS9 anyway. Klingons are what they are now. The Star Trek Species with the biggest fandom.
QFE. You can't expect people to fill a stadium before booking a band either.