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Marauder status?

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    My two darseks on the subject: "Marauding" can indeed be seen as a very neutral task available to anyone, where the different cultures will all put their unique stamp on it and may even call it differently. To the Orions, it will be good old fashioned Piracy. The Nausicaans will call it Raiding. And the Klingons? Well, just think of it as "Disrupting the Enemy's Shipping Lanes" and it sounds much less offending, no?

    Interrupting supply lines is part of the very basics of strategic warfare, and as we have seen in DS9 the Klingons do engage in it as well - with the remarkable fact that KDF warriors do indeed ignore targets whose freight is deemed too unimportant and whose armaments render him an unworthy opponent: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Groumall

    And last but not least, there are also some Klingons who are not as honorable as tradition would dictate - it depends on each player individually how to deal with the possibilities offered by the game.

    Also, two more things ...

    Cloaking Devices: Similar to the axiom "guns don't kill people, people do", a cloaking device itself is decidedly not dishonorable; it all boils down to how it is used. The KDF employs cloaking devices to, as has already been pointed out, balance its numerical and technological disadvantage. Additionally, Klingon warriors use the first-strike capability granted by these devices to attack much larger and mightier ships, hoping to overpower them by surprise (examples include several Birds-of-Prey that were single-handedly attempting to take on the heavy cruiser "Enterprise" throughout the movies).

    This is similar to a hunter stalking a dangerous animal by closing in against the wind, for he knows that he will surely die should the beast smell his scent. So, this too is something quite fitting for Klingon culture.

    Relationships within the Klingon Empire: This is something I often see confused, but neither the Orions, nor the Gorn, nor the Nausicaan "belong" to the Klingon Empire per se. The Orion Colonies are voluntary allies, the Gorn have a vassal state, and the Nausicaan do not have a unified government to begin with, rather hiring themselves out as individual mercenary groups. Small, but important differences.

    [edit]
    Heretic wrote:
    For example, all Klingon duty officers have the "Honorable" trait. Those Marauding assignments that are, shall we say, of slightly questionable morality such as raiding passenger ships actually have a penalty to your chance of success if you assign duty officers with the Honorable trait.
    I'm positively surprised that you guys actually took even such details into account! Cool stuff. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    We've tried to walk an appropriate line with this as much as possible.

    For example, all Klingon duty officers have the "Honorable" trait. Those Marauding assignments that are, shall we say, of slightly questionable morality such as raiding passenger ships actually have a penalty to your chance of success if you assign duty officers with the Honorable trait.

    Marauding also encompasses anything that your captain wasn't strictly supposed to do, but might be forgiven after the fact, such as raids behind enemy lines. It is very possible to have a Worf-type of interpretation of honor and still rank up in Marauding; it will just mean you may skip some of the assignments options that don't fit your ideal for your captain.

    There are, also, assignments that speak to House warfare and intrigue. These are placed in the commendation category where it seems most appropriate; sometimes this is Espionage, sometimes Marauding, sometimes Development or even other categories.

    The more I hear the more impressed I am by your guys' work on this system. Very, very interesting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    We've tried to walk an appropriate line with this as much as possible.

    For example, all Klingon duty officers have the "Honorable" trait. Those Marauding assignments that are, shall we say, of slightly questionable morality such as raiding passenger ships actually have a penalty to your chance of success if you assign duty officers with the Honorable trait.

    Marauding also encompasses anything that your captain wasn't strictly supposed to do, but might be forgiven after the fact, such as raids behind enemy lines. It is very possible to have a Worf-type of interpretation of honor and still rank up in Marauding; it will just mean you may skip some of the assignments options that don't fit your ideal for your captain.

    There are, also, assignments that speak to House warfare and intrigue. These are placed in the commendation category where it seems most appropriate; sometimes this is Espionage, sometimes Marauding, sometimes Development or even other categories.

    Hmm.....I'm impressed that yall are going to that level of detail to get the job done here; I'll shut up and wait to see the final product. Thanks for responding to my concerns :)
    Valias wrote:
    My two darseks on the subject: "Marauding" can indeed be seen as a very neutral task available to anyone, where the different cultures will all put their unique stamp on it and may even call it differently. To the Orions, it will be good old fashioned Piracy. The Nausicaans will call it Raiding. And the Klingons? Well, just think of it as "Disrupting the Enemy's Shipping Lanes" and it sounds much less offending, no?

    Interrupting supply lines is part of the very basics of strategic warfare, and as we have seen in DS9 the Klingons do engage in it as well - with the remarkable fact that KDF warriors do indeed ignore targets whose freight is deemed too unimportant and whose armaments render him an unworthy opponent: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Groumall

    And last but not least, there are also some Klingons who are not as honorable as tradition would dictate - it depends on each player individually how to deal with the possibilities offered by the game.

    Also, two more things ...

    Cloaking Devices: Similar to the axiom "guns don't kill people, people do", a cloaking device itself is decidedly not dishonorable; it all boils down to how it is used. The KDF employs cloaking devices to, as has already been pointed out, balance its numerical and technological disadvantage. Additionally, Klingon warriors use the first-strike capability granted by these devices to attack much larger and mightier ships, hoping to overpower them by surprise (examples include several Birds-of-Prey that were single-handedly attempting to take on the heavy cruiser "Enterprise" throughout the movies).

    This is similar to a hunter stalking a dangerous animal by closing in against the wind, for he knows that he will surely die should the beast smell his scent. So, this too is something quite fitting for Klingon culture.

    Relationships within the Klingon Empire: This is something I often see confused, but neither the Orions, nor the Gorn, nor the Nausicaan "belong" to the Klingon Empire per se. The Orion Colonies are voluntary allies, the Gorn have a vassal state, and the Nausicaan do not have a unified government to begin with, rather hiring themselves out as individual mercenary groups. Small, but important differences.

    Very well said!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    We've tried to walk an appropriate line with this as much as possible.

    For example, all Klingon duty officers have the "Honorable" trait. Those Marauding assignments that are, shall we say, of slightly questionable morality such as raiding passenger ships actually have a penalty to your chance of success if you assign duty officers with the Honorable trait.

    Marauding also encompasses anything that your captain wasn't strictly supposed to do, but might be forgiven after the fact, such as raids behind enemy lines. It is very possible to have a Worf-type of interpretation of honor and still rank up in Marauding; it will just mean you may skip some of the assignments options that don't fit your ideal for your captain.

    There are, also, assignments that speak to House warfare and intrigue. These are placed in the commendation category where it seems most appropriate; sometimes this is Espionage, sometimes Marauding, sometimes Development or even other categories.

    It's still the name that bugs me. Is that name set in stone or could it be renamed something else. Like Warrior XP or something.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Inquizitor wrote: »
    It's still the name that bugs me. Is that name set in stone or could it be renamed something else. Like Warrior XP or something.

    Personally I'd use the term "expeditionary", it can encompass more. Expedition can mean so many more things, for instance, the MEU or Marine Expeditionary Units of the USMC are clearly fighting forces, but they have also been used in humanitarian work, evacuations and security ops. The word could also be used for exploration or even whatever the Klingon form of diplomatic actions might be (thinking along the lines of Gorkon here).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Varrangian wrote: »
    The word could also be used for exploration or even whatever the Klingon form of diplomatic actions might be (thinking along the lines of Gorkon here).
    Actually, that's why I'd still prefer Marauding to it - "Expeditionary" makes me think of anything, but not prowling shipping lanes. :D

    The only potentially less "piracey" term I could think of is "Raiding", but personally I'm fine with how it looks like right now. I deem it mainly as a nod to the other species that can be found fighting for the KDF right now (they don't get much else and would have deserved so much more - like a couple more starships), whereas the real Klingons will be mostly busy with the Military tab. You'll just have to choose for yourselves which assignments your Captains will feel comfortable ordering.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Valias wrote:
    Actually, that's why I'd still prefer Marauding to it - "Expeditionary" makes me think of anything, but not prowling shipping lanes. :D

    The only potentially less "piracey" term I could think of is "Raiding", but personally I'm fine with how it looks like right now. I deem it mainly as a nod to the other species that can be found fighting for the KDF right now (they don't get much else and would have deserved so much more - like a couple more starships), whereas the real Klingons will be mostly busy with the Military tab. You'll just have to choose for yourselves which assignments your Captains will feel comfortable ordering.

    I'm sure Marine Force Recon would disagree with you, but I do see your point. You could call them "Tactical Expeditions" :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    We've tried to walk an appropriate line with this as much as possible.

    For example, all Klingon duty officers have the "Honorable" trait. Those Marauding assignments that are, shall we say, of slightly questionable morality such as raiding passenger ships actually have a penalty to your chance of success if you assign duty officers with the Honorable trait.

    Marauding also encompasses anything that your captain wasn't strictly supposed to do, but might be forgiven after the fact, such as raids behind enemy lines. It is very possible to have a Worf-type of interpretation of honor and still rank up in Marauding; it will just mean you may skip some of the assignments options that don't fit your ideal for your captain.

    There are, also, assignments that speak to House warfare and intrigue. These are placed in the commendation category where it seems most appropriate; sometimes this is Espionage, sometimes Marauding, sometimes Development or even other categories.

    Sounds like you have put a lot of thought and time into this system :) Basically I get in certain situations you will be forced with the ancient problem of damn if you do and damn if you don't :) Always makes things interesting other than the tab kill tab kill kill tab tab back stab kill again.

    Keep up the good work :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Valias wrote:
    Actually, that's why I'd still prefer Marauding to it - "Expeditionary" makes me think of anything, but not prowling shipping lanes. :D

    The only potentially less "piracey" term I could think of is "Raiding", but personally I'm fine with how it looks like right now. I deem it mainly as a nod to the other species that can be found fighting for the KDF right now (they don't get much else and would have deserved so much more - like a couple more starships), whereas the real Klingons will be mostly busy with the Military tab. You'll just have to choose for yourselves which assignments your Captains will feel comfortable ordering.

    Hmm.....well depending on where the story of STO goes, it could be called, "Imperial Campaigns" or something along those lines to reference that the Empire is at war and who they're at war with.

    I don't know, just a thought though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Varrangian wrote: »
    I'm sure Marine Force Recon would disagree with you, but I do see your point. You could call them "Tactical Expeditions" :D
    I know what you mean, it's just ... I dunno, it sounds so ... Starfleetish :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Valias wrote:
    I know what you mean, it's just ... I dunno, it sounds so ... Starfleetish :D

    I checked a thesaurus how about "patrol" or "mission" or my personal favorite, Safari!!! :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Actuyll I# won't hold by breathe until Stahls announced more KDF content will arrive some day. I come back through my last gametime card and was strongly disappointed in what bad shape the KDF still is and where the way shall lead (C-Store ships).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kerrus wrote: »
    The other thing to consider is that a lot of Klingon fans project onto the klinks their beliefs, and it's been going around for such a long time that the fanon is that Klingons are these brave samurai-esque warriors that adhere to a universal code of honour and blah blah blah- they totally don't.


    While they might have been modeled off of the Samurai, the Klingons are nothing of the sort. Honour is really a misnomer in this situation- I think a better term would be... oh... Glory.




    Seriously, go and substitute every use of the word 'honor' with 'glory' in Klingon dialogue.



    the picture it paints is not a very nice one, which is part of the reason why the word 'honor' is used. Honour sounds so much more... noble.



    EDIT: If 98% of klingons are 'corrupted' um... well there's a thing called majority rules. If 98% of klingons believe honor works that way, then by all accounts, that's how it works.


    Glory... less so.

    We've seen so many Starfllet Captains and Federation scientists craving absolute power, designing apocalyptic devices and going mad you'd think it's a standard prerequisite to be mentally unstable to work for the Federation.
    Yet the usual approach to such matters is to think they are the negative exception to the good examples we see.

    With non-Federation examples the approach is totally reversed.
    We see a bunch of Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians craving for power, bullying civilians and there are people coming up with something like "the good examples are the exceptions, 98% are corrupt".

    This is stereotyping based on a criterium I will not spell out openly because it disgusts me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    If we have prisoners, will we be able to see them in our Brigs?
    Seems like a waste to have a detention center on every ship without people to lock up and feed rotten Targ meat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I'm so ready for this system to get into game. Anyone know what the projected launch date is?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    rayvenwing wrote: »
    I'm so ready for this system to get into game. Anyone know what the projected launch date is?

    Along with the duty officer system. So as per the Duty Officer 101 thread (which I update the first set of explanatory posts):

    Closed Internal Beta - Early September
    Tribble - Late September or Early October
    Holodeck - October 20, 2011
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    Along with the duty officer system. So as per the Duty Officer 101 thread (which I update the first set of explanatory posts):

    Closed Internal Beta - Early September
    Tribble - Late September or Early October
    Holodeck - October 20, 2011

    Will the title or status for Marauding be based off of our past combat or are we going to have to start all over with it's release. I remember when diplomacy came out on the FeD side that the system was implemented in such a way that we had to start from scratch on our fed toons with nothing we had done previously going to the reward. What exactly would or must we do to earn Marauding points?....AND... will we have to start from scratch on this system, or will it be issued like those accolades (you know when the accolade system came out) retro-actively....?

    I doubt seriously that many people will be happy having to grind yet even more on KDF toons that take already so much grinding to get to LTG....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Will the title or status for Marauding be based off of our past combat or are we going to have to start all over with it's release. I remember when diplomacy came out on the FeD side that the system was implemented in such a way that we had to start from scratch on our fed toons with nothing we had done previously going to the reward. What exactly would or must we do to earn Marauding points?....AND... will we have to start from scratch on this system, or will it be issued like those accolades (you know when the accolade system came out) retro-actively....?

    I doubt seriously that many people will be happy having to grind yet even more on KDF toons that take already so much grinding to get to LTG....

    In all reasonableness, why *should* any players not have to start from scratch for a new system? If you were handed the max rank from Day 1 then that defeats most of the point of adding new content in the first place. Feds should have to go from nothing to Ambassador just as Klingons should have to go from nothing to <top Marauder tier>. For those players who haven't hit max rank yet -- congrats, you now have a new method of getting skill points AND commendation points simultaneously. For those who already maxed out, now you have something new to do as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Will the title or status for Marauding be based off of our past combat or are we going to have to start all over with it's release. I remember when diplomacy came out on the FeD side that the system was implemented in such a way that we had to start from scratch on our fed toons with nothing we had done previously going to the reward. What exactly would or must we do to earn Marauding points?....AND... will we have to start from scratch on this system, or will it be issued like those accolades (you know when the accolade system came out) retro-actively....?

    Marauding xp is based primarily on duty officer assignments, so there's no relationship at the moment between anything you could have done prior to that system coming up.

    We are exploring giving Marauding xp (and other forms of commendation xp) through other parts of the game, including missions, but that footprint will probably be very minimal at launch of this system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    Marauding xp is based primarily on duty officer assignments, so there's no relationship at the moment between anything you could have done prior to that system coming up.

    We are exploring giving Marauding xp (and other forms of commendation xp) through other parts of the game, including missions, but that footprint will probably be very minimal at launch of this system.

    Again, this may be way down the road, and iy might have been asked before - BUT, has there been any though giiven to trying the occassion standard mission opportunity into the Doff system (Ie On a critical failure - you get offered a mission dialogue which start with one of the Doffs you sent sending a distress call/informing you they've been captured, etc. and requesting you divert to system X in Sector Y - and when you go there you start a more typical type of STO mission with space/ground objectives related to rescuing/freeing you Doffs?

    Or occassionally have it turn intop a Diplomacy Syetem FC mission, where you need toi go talk to representatives - and depending on how well you do, it also determinesd the final outcome on the attached Doff assignment (IE Doffs killed, killed, returned, etc.)

    In other words, not only adding Doff side assignmenst in some actual mission content; but also allowing Doff assignments themselves to occassionally lead to actual map mission content as well?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    ...We are exploring giving Marauding xp (and other forms of commendation xp) through other parts of the game, including missions, but that footprint will probably be very minimal at launch of this system.
    It would be nice if the Pi Canis Raids granted Marauding XP (Similar to how the Feds can play Rescue Deferi Captives (Daily) for Diplo XP). Perhaps just add it to the Path of the Warrior wrapper mission?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    Marauding xp is based primarily on duty officer assignments, so there's no relationship at the moment between anything you could have done prior to that system coming up.

    We are exploring giving Marauding xp (and other forms of commendation xp) through other parts of the game, including missions, but that footprint will probably be very minimal at launch of this system.

    Well, it seems that I shall have to grind incessantly on my KDF toons to get to the point in KDF diplomacy that I am on my Federation toons... it seems to me there ought to be MORE than 1 option, and not having thought of it until now is something that I know I don't like, and I am afraid in having spoken with many people about it this morning, they aren't happy with it either. Oh well, another reason not to play on all my KDF toons, grinding is a bit more difficult there.....that is unless you place a value on some or a certain mission or missions on the KDF side with Marauding points at launch...that could perhaps brighten this news.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Well, it seems that I shall have to grind incessantly on my KDF toons to get to the point in KDF diplomacy that I am on my Federation toons... it seems to me there ought to be MORE than 1 option, and not having thought of it until now is something that I know I don't like, and I am afraid in having spoken with many people about it this morning, they aren't happy with it either. Oh well, another reason not to play on all my KDF toons, grinding is a bit more difficult there.....that is unless you place a value on some or a certain mission or missions on the KDF side with Marauding points at launch...that could perhaps brighten this news.

    How about a temporary XP boost for the faction for a week or two after release to help us catch up and not burden the faction with more grinding?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    Marauding xp is based primarily on duty officer assignments, so there's no relationship at the moment between anything you could have done prior to that system coming up.

    We are exploring giving Marauding xp (and other forms of commendation xp) through other parts of the game, including missions, but that footprint will probably be very minimal at launch of this system.

    how about accolades? examin the ferengi's stash get 1 espionage xp, kill 1000 feds get 25 marauding xp...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    Marauding xp is based primarily on duty officer assignments, so there's no relationship at the moment between anything you could have done prior to that system coming up.

    We are exploring giving Marauding xp (and other forms of commendation xp) through other parts of the game, including missions, but that footprint will probably be very minimal at launch of this system.

    Marauding should be special, like Diplomacy. you should get marauding XP for certain types of exploration missions, and a contact should give you special, Marauding only missions, just as the FDC gives First Contact missions. Maybe we should get First Contact missions too, except ours is "Hi we're here to take over".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I asked a simple question and got back a book of replies mostly not related.
    So, after you are all done patting yourselves on the back, I will use the
    Bataleth that Worf signed and put it to good use on my computer.
    For the people that have a life in the real world and play on occasion,
    some of you should really get out more...


    So, back to square one. What am I missing in the mission?

    - Thanks
    :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    cj_cawley wrote: »
    I asked a simple question and got back a book of replies mostly not related.

    So, back to square one. What am I missing in the mission?

    Marauding will be the analog for the Federation Diplomacy system. It is still under development.

    When the system comes online when the duty officer comes online later this year, once you rank up in it you will be able to enter into the Federation core sectors in the same way that those who have ranked up Diplomacy on the Federation side may enter KDF core sectors.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kasensal wrote:
    Marauding should be special, like Diplomacy.

    God I hope not. Currently Diplomacy isn't very special at all. Launching a new game mechanic as incomplete as diplomacy was launched ... that's a bad idea.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Heretic wrote:
    Marauding will be the analog for the Federation Diplomacy system. It is still under development.

    When the system comes online when the duty officer comes online later this year, once you rank up in it you will be able to enter into the Federation core sectors in the same way that those who have ranked up Diplomacy on the Federation side may enter KDF core sectors.

    Something to keep in mind, but, the diplomacy system is really a terrible and boring grind, with only a select few missions that actually feel diplomatic.

    Please try to avoid that mistake with Marauding.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    cj_cawley wrote: »
    Apparently, I need this to travel to Mars and complete Second Star....
    Any ideas how I get this?

    - Thanks

    KDF version of diplomacy that'll come later in Season 4. You didn't need this status when this kdf mission came out, so I guess this is a bug :confused:
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