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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I would say that all bridges and interiors should be relooked at after seeing the constitution bridge look to scale. Iam not even a TOS fan, but I did enjoy watching the epi's at times, but seeing the bridge is kinda cool, but id like up to date bridges look more to scale then shopping centers :D also having the decks look more realistic :) then huge walkways
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Almost every ship with specials is available outside of the c-store that policy changed.

    How many hours do I have to spend working to get them in the game that I would otherwise get to spend playing the game in the way I would like? Can I be working to achieve them if my subscription is no longer active?
    As for shutter doors, they were only added because the canon purists blew a gasket when they saw the leaked pictures and, no, shutter doors aren't content as long as I wear pants on my legs and not on my head. :p

    What about the interactive chairs? The Jeffries Tubes? Are those in the other interior locations?
    I spent years subscribed to games who had next-to-no content updates and that $15 went to server maintenance. You're not just getting those few missions: you getting access to them in the context of thousands of other players - which one of my arguments for more team content.

    Again, this is something I find surprising. I don't understand why you would pay for a service that is normally free in other games. Multiplayer FPS games give you access to their content in the context of thousands of other players at no additional cost.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    How many hours do I have to spend working to get them in the game that I would otherwise get to spend playing the game in the way I would like? Can I be working to achieve them if my subscription is no longer active?
    Everyone wants everything now and for free.

    If you really want them then you grind for them like every other MMO. They're gear. You work toward them.

    MMOs have always had grind for additional gear (and I still prefer my in-game DSSV over the majority of ships).
    What about the interactive chairs? The Jeffries Tubes? Are those in the other interior locations?
    Interactive chairs are getting added and everyone has at least their bridge and ready room for free currently. The rest are getting adding - but they're having to go back in to add the sit-in-chairs, rather than this interior which was build from the ground up with them in mind.
    Again, this is something I find surprising. I don't understand why you would pay for a service that is normally free in other games. Multiplayer FPS games give you access to their content in the context of thousands of other players at no additional cost.
    A FPS chat lobby is not even remotely similar to an MMO with a world you can move around in.

    I'm knee-deep in Crysis 2 and I see (at max) 15 other people.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    How many hours do I have to spend working to get them in the game that I would otherwise get to spend playing the game in the way I would like? Can I be working to achieve them if my subscription is no longer active?



    What about the interactive chairs? The Jeffries Tubes? Are those in the other interior locations?



    Again, this is something I find surprising. I don't understand why you would pay for a service that is normally free in other games. Multiplayer FPS games give you access to their content in the context of thousands of other players at no additional cost.

    The average monthly cost to play an MMO, hasn't changed in a decade... (or more)...

    The cost of creating and keepin one running, has climbed substantially in that same time period.

    Which would you prefer to do...

    Pay a higher price monthly automatically, when ever THEY feel like increasing it...

    Or pay for a bit of somewhat over-priced additions once in a while, at your own whim...?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ThetaNine wrote:
    Ok, I have to say I love TOS (I grew up watching it in the early 1970's). And I appreciate the fact the devs made it so we can relive that environment inside our ships and out with the new TOS bundle pack on the C-Store.

    What I'd really like to see is a 2409 C-Store Bundle of NEW material: New Uniforms, New Bridges, New Shuttles, New Weapons that Scale Up with Character Progression! :D


    How about you? ;)

    If they want people to use it, I think a 2409 bundle should be free, honestly. Just make that a backburner project and piggyback development of that off of a TNG bundle.

    'Cause without sex appeal or nostalgia going for it, an equally priced 2409 bundle wouldn't do as well.

    I'd instead argue that some new 2409 uniforms and interiors would, similar to ESD's revamp, help advertise the game's changes and draw in curious onlookers along with people who left.

    But it won't generate C-Store sales as readily.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Everyone wants everything now and for free.

    If you really want them then you grind for them like every other MMO. They're gear. You work toward them.

    MMOs have always had grind for additional gear (and I still prefer my in-game DSSV over the majority of ships).

    I'm not sure some of them qualify as gear in the strictest sense, as instead of being some form of upgrade they're actually just an alternative (as Cryptic repeatedly reminds us they give no gameplay advantage.) So I have to grind maybe a full month or more of game time just to try an alternative? It's not like I can walk into a Holodeck and determine if I want to spend all that time (or money.)

    It's kind of like saying I should have to grind for a month to find out if I want to use a sword instead of an ax.
    Interactive chairs are getting added and everyone has at least their bridge and ready room for free currently. The rest are getting adding - but they're having to go back in to add the sit-in-chairs, rather than this interior which was build from the ground up with them in mind.

    But they are not yet, which means there are two tiers of gaming experience now. If you want a properly scaled ship interior with interactive objects, you need to pay more money. Otherwise you have to wait.
    A FPS chat lobby is not even remotely similar to an MMO with a world you can move around in.

    I'm knee-deep in Crysis 2 and I see (at max) 15 other people.

    I think they're pretty similar. You'll never see those thousands of people at once. In Battlefield 2 I could be (and often was) in the same map as 64 other people. In UT I even had full voice over IP built into the game, free to use, and could talk to any one in the map. I have never seen 64 other people with me on a mission in STO, and last I checked, STO still does not have VOIP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    DaveyNY wrote: »
    The average monthly cost to play an MMO, hasn't changed in a decade... (or more)...

    The cost of creating and keepin one running, has climbed substantially in that same time period.

    Which would you prefer to do...

    Pay a higher price monthly automatically, when ever THEY feel like increasing it...

    Or pay for a bit of somewhat over-priced additions once in a while, at your own whim...?

    I would prefer they charge as much as they possibly can get away with, and that we as consumers would put as much pressure on them as possible to make sure what they can get away with is as little as possible for as much as possible, especially if other parts of the gaming market are able to provide the same or more for less.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    I would prefer they charge as much as they possibly can get away with, and that we as consumers would put as much pressure on them as possible to make sure what they can get away with is as little as possible for as much as possible, especially if other parts of the gaming market are able to provide the same or more for less.

    hummmnnn.....

    Looks like the reaction to the new TOS pack, just blew that particular preference out of the quadrant...

    I'm not disagreeing with your premise..,

    It's just that with this particular scenario, I'm not willing to hold my breath based on the whims of other players. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    I think they're pretty similar. You'll never see those thousands of people at once. In Battlefield 2 I could be (and often was) in the same map as 64 other people. In UT I even had full voice over IP built into the game, free to use, and could talk to any one in the map. I have never seen 64 other people with me on a mission in STO, and last I checked, STO still does not have VOIP.
    The voice you mention was peer-to-peer and didn't use servers.

    Again, these are arguments I use for more fleet actions, PvP maps, open pvp areas, large-scale raids, persistent zones, and territory control to be added - instead of the majority of content being Featured Episodes.

    While the ramping up to do more Featured Content is a welcome breath to the game, I hope that the Massive and Multiplayer elements don't get overlooked. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    DaveyNY wrote: »
    hummmnnn.....

    Looks like the reaction to the new TOS pack, just blew that particular preference out of the quadrant...

    I'm not disagreeing with your premise..,

    I'm just not going to hold my breath based on the whims of other players. :)

    Of course. That's part of the problem. It's part of what I'm trying to get across here. This should be a negotiation.

    Cryptic: "Hey check out the awesome new TOS Interior we made!"
    Us: "Wow, that is pretty cool, but it's too bad I won't be able to use it because it's not free."
    Cryptic: "Well, we can't give it to you for free, how about I give you a discount rate of $15?"
    Us: "Ehh... I mean it's just an interior. You can't really do anything with it."
    Cryptic: "$10?"
    Us: *looks at the door, looks at the TOS pack*
    Cryptic: "$5. $5."
    Us: "I just don't know. It is really nice and all. Can you come down to $1?"
    Cryptic: "Ahh I'll have to check with my boss..."
    Us: "We'll wait."
    Cyptic: "Ok final offer. Best I can do is $2."
    Us: "Ah...well....alright I guess I can do that. But only this one time."

    What we have instead is:
    Cryptic: "Hey check out this new interior."
    Us: "Here's my wallet! Take whatever you want! Just give it to me!"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The voice you mention was peer-to-peer and didn't use servers.

    Sure it did. Somebody had to be a server just to host the game. Either the client acted as both client and server, or you set up a dedicated server and it ran through that. The companies usually had their own free dedicated servers set up as well.

    Even if it didn't, I could speak to the other players and they could speak back. You can't do that in STO. I'm not sure there is an MMO that has that capability built in at all.
    Again, these are arguments I use for more fleet actions, PvP maps, open pvp areas, large-scale raids, persistent zones, and territory control to be added - instead of the majority of content being Featured Episodes.

    While the ramping up to do more Featured Content is a welcome breath to the game, I hope that the Massive and Multiplayer elements don't get overlooked. :)

    And as you know, I'm always up for supporting those arguments to improve the game, but that's not how it is at the moment.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    And as you know, I'm always up for supporting those arguments to improve the game, but that's not how it is at the moment.
    I can at least appreciate that.

    The way I see, if you'll indulge me, is if someone wants to get a TOS pack, that means the devs have can add it to their resources for building content. I'm cool with it.

    Art assets take more time nowadays - so, to do it well, devs have the following options:
    • Charge for content
    • Charge more per month
    • Charge for fluff

    I'm fine with fluff being charged for so long as content can get made with those art assets.

    Imagine you have a budget of x many hours for artists for the weekly series, you could either do it poorly made but quickly or take longer and do it right. The third way is making part of that workload a fluffy item people can choose to buy at their leisure and then rest assured that you won't be crammed for time or take a long time to get art out later.

    STO had around 50 missions added last year - which is toward the top of the pack (unless you count paid expansions). A good portion of those used small, cosmetic changes and items in the long run.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    Of course. That's part of the problem. It's part of what I'm trying to get across here. This should be a negotiation.

    Cryptic: "Hey check out the awesome new TOS Interior we made!"
    Us: "Wow, that is pretty cool, but it's too bad I won't be able to use it because it's not free."
    Cryptic: "Well, we can't give it to you for free, how about I give you a discount rate of $15?"
    Us: "Ehh... I mean it's just an interior. You can't really do anything with it."
    Cryptic: "$10?"
    Us: *looks at the door, looks at the TOS pack*
    Cryptic: "$5. $5."
    Us: "I just don't know. It is really nice and all. Can you come down to $1?"
    Cryptic: "Ahh I'll have to check with my boss..."
    Us: "We'll wait."
    Cyptic: "Ok final offer. Best I can do is $2."
    Us: "Ah...well....alright I guess I can do that. But only this one time."

    What we have instead is:
    Cryptic: "Hey check out this new interior."
    Us: "Here's my wallet! Take whatever you want! Just give it to me!"

    Oh Yeah....

    If Only I could get Cryptic to deal with me like the last Dealer I bought a car from....

    Some how though, I don't think Cryptic is at the... end-of-the-month/year-time-to-meet-quota point..., yet... ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ThetaNine wrote:
    Ok, I have to say I love TOS (I grew up watching it in the early 1970's). And I appreciate the fact the devs made it so we can relive that environment inside our ships and out with the new TOS bundle pack on the C-Store.

    What I'd really like to see is a 2409 C-Store Bundle of NEW material: New Uniforms, New Bridges, New Shuttles, New Weapons that Scale Up with Character Progression! :D


    How about you? ;)

    I would kill to actually have stuff released for this era finally..... :D
    THIS is what I'm talking about! More stuff from the proper timeline! Stop the past-TRIBBLE. People paid for this game KNOWING it was set in the future, so let's stop pandering to them and make them grow up! Give them what they paid for, not what they keep crying about.

    This ^
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I can at least appreciate that.

    The way I see, if you'll indulge me, is if someone wants to get a TOS pack, that means the devs have can add it to their resources for building content. I'm cool with it.

    Art assets take more time nowadays - so, to do it well, devs have the following options:
    • Charge for content
    • Charge more per month
    • Charge for fluff

    I'm fine with fluff being charged for so long as content can get made with those art assets.

    Imagine you have a budget of x many hours for artists for the weekly series, you could either do it poorly made but quickly or take longer and do it right. The third way is making part of that workload a fluffy item people can choose to buy at their leisure and then rest assured that you won't be crammed for time or take a long time to get art out later.

    I don't have access to their financials, so there's no way to debate their budgeting practices. They could be ripping us off, they could be taking a huge hit, I just have no way to know.

    All I know is that in my experience in the rest of the gaming world, this business model is not used. Even in the MMO world their model appears to be unusual. They are charging like they're F2P (especially now that we have an interior that is a fundamentally different gaming experience from the normal sub model) but they are a subscription MMO.

    I'm frankly not sure why they haven't gone F2P. I think it would probably net them a whole bunch of people who wrote this game off at launch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    I don't have access to their financials, so there's no way to debate their budgeting practices. They could be ripping us off, they could be taking a huge hit, I just have no way to know.

    All I know is that in my experience in the rest of the gaming world, this business model is not used. Even in the MMO world their model appears to be unusual. They are charging like they're F2P (especially now that we have an interior that is a fundamentally different gaming experience from the normal sub model) but they are a subscription MMO.

    I'm frankly not sure why they haven't gone F2P. I think it would probably net them a whole bunch of people who wrote this game off at launch.

    Is there a $15 a month game that isn't also loading up on cosmetic item cash shops as well now?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Is there a $15 a month game that isn't also loading up on cosmetic item cash shops as well now?
    RIFTS but they're kind of an exception to the trend in a lot of ways.

    Anyone want to take a wager at how TOR will afford full-voice acting post-launch on $15/month?
    Look at WAR's store. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    RIFTS but they're kind of an exception to the trend in a lot of ways.

    Anyone want to take a wager at how TOR will afford full-voice acting post-launch on $15/month?
    Look at WAR's store. :)

    RIFTS is also Brand New On the Market...

    Let's see where they are a year from now....

    Who knows.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Anyone want to take a wager at how TOR will afford full-voice acting post-launch on $15/month?

    They plan to do it by having lots and lots of people playing the game and keeping them subscribing by delivering a superior experience, I imagine. They've also probably locked in contracts that will keep the cost down.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    They plan to do it by having lots and lots of people playing the game and keeping them subscribing by delivering a superior experience, I imagine. They've also probably locked in contracts that will keep the cost down.

    They need a million players to break even. They almost have to have a C-Store plan.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    They need a million players to break even. They almost have to have a C-Store plan.

    There are a LOT of Star Wars fans out there. :D

    EDIT:

    Also, don't forget the cost of the box. I'm sure it's going to run $50+ and will probably be able to charge that for quite some time if the game is really good.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    They plan to do it by having lots and lots of people playing the game and keeping them subscribing by delivering a superior experience, I imagine. They've also probably locked in contracts that will keep the cost down.

    I suppose that's why Bioware-Mythic (wholly owned subsidiaries of EA) have RvR progression cap removers, RvR progression boosts, and gear sets as a bundle in their store for WAR.

    Voice acting doesn't mean their content will be a flat cost sustainable over the long run. No other MMO has been able to achieve that (not even EQ2, which once touted spoken dialogue everywhere).

    We're not looking at anomalies; we're looking at trending. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I suppose that's why Bioware-Mythic (wholly owned subsidiaries of EA) have RvR progression cap removers, RvR progression boosts, and gear sets as a bundle in their store for WAR.

    Voice acting doesn't mean their content will be a flat cost sustainable over the long run. No other MMO has been able to achieve that (not even EQ2, which once touted spoken dialogue everywhere).

    We're not looking at anomalies; we're looking at trending. ;)

    I'm sure it will be a challenge, but they are clearly not rushing into it unlike some other companies did. Their move to include VO work and branching dialog suggests they are going for a really deep, engaging experience that's going to make it look like the stuff in their store is absolutely minimal.

    They could of course fail horribly. Only time will tell.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    I'm sure it will be a challenge, but they are clearly not rushing into it unlike some other companies did. Their move to include VO work and branching dialog suggests they are going for a really deep, engaging experience that's going to make it look like the stuff in their store is absolutely minimal.

    They could of course fail horribly. Only time will tell.

    I wish Bioware the best but they already have a company precedent for deeply game impacting items being part of microtrans stores (the EA store).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I wish Bioware the best but they already have a company precedent for deeply game impacting items being part of microtrans stores (the EA store).

    True.

    This all just goes back to the fundamental problem STO has. Immerse me in the game world, and I'm too busy enjoying the game to care about what you're charging in the C-store or to come on your forums and complain about it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    LotD wrote:
    True.

    This all just goes back to the fundamental problem STO has. Immerse me in the game world, and I'm too busy enjoying the game to care about what you're charging in the C-store or to come on your forums and complain about it.

    Very valid point.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Don't forget, it's probably a lot harder to get completely new stuff in game than it is to get stuff that's already been seen on screen. New designs would require approval from CBS, plus approval of the final product. There;s no telling how many different design variations they'd have to go through just to get approval for one new item. Old stuff just needs permission and final product approval.

    Actually, they're probably both a lot harder than that, but my point is that a new design requires that extra, really big step.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    My personal opinion was that a game set after the "known" eras of Star Trek, wouldn't stand on it's own. The reason being is there is so much love for the ships, characters and uniforms of the various Treks we all grew up with and enjoyed.

    Originally, I'd thought that moving out into the future of the setting would let them make their own mark, create their own story, and also conveniently accomodate customization without getting in the way of what was. But Cryptic just started out by rehashing DS9's middle arc and mixing in baddies from Voyager, decaying the setting into something bleak and uncomfortable, and generally failing to provide a vision that many people found compelling.

    I think it might have gone better set in the 1701-C era. Older ships could still serve major roles, and they could have built some anticipation for moving into the TNG era as an anniversary thing.

    I'd miss the lack of Akiras, but something from its design lineage could have been made in the Excelsior and Ambassador generations.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Originally, I'd thought that moving out into the future of the setting would let them make their own mark, create their own story, and also conveniently accomodate customization without getting in the way of what was. But Cryptic just started out by rehashing DS9's middle arc and mixing in baddies from Voyager, decaying the setting into something bleak and uncomfortable, and generally failing to provide a vision that many people found compelling.

    I think it might have gone better set in the 1701-C era. Older ships could still serve major roles, and they could have built some anticipation for moving into the TNG era as an anniversary thing.

    I'd miss the lack of Akiras, but something from its design lineage could have been made in the Excelsior and Ambassador generations.

    Even though I probably sound like a broken record with how many times I've posted it, I still maintain the problem is that they focused on the idea of letting us play through an episode of a TV show instead of building the TV show's universe and letting us play in it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Blackavaar wrote: »
    That could be interesting. Granted any new uniforms they make for the 25th Century aren't almost entirely leather, I'd love to see some new designs.

    A 29th Century uniform pack would be nice too. Would be even nicer if they added the 29th Century time ships, Aeon and Relativity too.


    :cool:

    I would LOVE to be able to fly a Wells-class Federation timeship! Some new phased chroniton weaponry and a new ability for the ship (balanced, of course).

    It would be nice to have a "Time Jump" feature where, say if you're in a battle and someone is on your tail and has you in perfect firing position where you are unable to hit them, or perhaps when you were seriously damaged, a Wells class can "blink out" and appear maybe 15-20k clicks out from your previous position, with a timed cooldown.

    You find a spot in time just before or after your current conflict where no one is there, and time warp there. Then you travel the 15-20k clicks away and time warp back to the moment just after you left.

    Oh man... chills. :)
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