Discussion on making archers useful again

did i just read that an endgame archer can hit 25k on an endgame bm?

i dont even hit bms that much as a wizard

actually i deal more damage on AAs rather than on bms on mag marrow, i just wonder how an archer could possibly land such an hit... you probably had been 0defd by some veno around

but lets talk about BM broken mechanics...

HF zerkcrit 8x damage amp? E I G H T P E R 800% base damage, i mean BM is a ******n support class why do you have the chance of an 800% base damage hit?

and you guys can purge aswell, debuffs are useless against you, and you can negate archer damage with just HoS

also reel in someone on the ground from a flyer disarm paralyze as the ultimate CC broken mechanic?

I am gonna tell you a good one, few months ago i was in this tw against a faction which tends to abuse such glitches,

i had to pull a cata and what happened?

i got reeled in from a bm on a flyer from max range, then he paralyzed me and at that point i've already lost my catapult
he then proceeded to disarm but eventually an auto-attack went trough on my arcane defense that bumped me over the TW sky box, i had to leave instance and join back...

wonder how TWs would be if all the BMs in the instance would just reel cata pullers and permalock them in air making them lose catas every damn time

broken much?

But if passives were removed from NH, everyone will hit like a truck because base damage is also increased after NH with avatar, nuema , more stats after rebirth, skill damage passive.

The easiest comparison is looking at the cap, 90% was before NH, 95% is after NH. 5% here equals to half damage. 90% = 37575 defense value, 95% = 79317 defense value. It's not that easy to reach 95% even with primal passive, or cmiiw. So if an archer has like 30k dmg against someone with 90% damage reduction before NH, after NH it'd be the same as the archer has to increase dmg to 60k against the opponent with 95% damage reduction. The problem is, to reach that would probably need nuema portal rebirthed, but the same goes for reaching 95%, probably also need the same sets, which could cost a fortune.

If archers qq about passive nerfing purge, it'd also apply to wiz's spark, cleric's def/mdef debuff, barb's pdef debuff, even tangling mire from genie, basically every existing debuff is nerfed except veno's Demon Ironwood Scarab which forces defense down to 0%, it even bypasses passive. That's why I say everyone can have primal passive, so there should be nothing to qq about, everyone is equally affected by it. We've seen ranged and magic qq about zerkcrit, non magic qq about purify spell, and so on. How come something that's given equally to everyone makes everyone QQ.


TLDR;
The primal resistances passives is a buff that cannot be purged or influenced by debuffs because it's already 'passively' influenced by increased (base) damage. Both resistance and damage are scaled up.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

One thing everybody conveniently forgets regarding archers vs other classes on primal update is how everybody else got flat 20% dmg increase, archers autos were not part of it. And the skills for skillspamming archers got are so terrible that its still better to just auto with that skill dmg passive, which ought to point out to everybody how useless skills for dmg archers got.

Every other class got worthwhile primal skills, archers not so much. Half the primal skills archers got are downgrades from lvl 11 versions and the rest we wont be using even after the "buff" they got. The only other downgrade every other class put together I can think of is demon ironwood/redstone(?).

Shortly put, every class but archers got their dmg updated in NH. Saying its the same thing for everybody is simply ignorant.

Yea, I was about to add my post about that one lol, everyone got their dps increased not only via primal passive, look at psychics, their 2 basic skills got lowered casting time, cleric got no cooldown cyclone, but cleric dph is so puny so let it pass b:chuckle. Other classes such bms and barbs got uninterruptible control skill, means more damage can be dealt by utilizing it. Wiz got more stun skill even though it's not 100%, also more crit in fire armor (or cmiiw , not quite familiar with wiz), chi regen which means a lot. Sins got their 'aps' back etc.

Only Archer is left out because archer relies on normal atk much while it doesn't get the benefit from skill damage passive, but to be honest as a player with cleric as my main, archer dps can be a bit too much. Actually I'm kinda relieved by it (sorry for that), and with so many people playing archers, it'll not be safe out there. I prefer archer gets damage boost on the magic damage side via lowered chanting time or added -channeling skill. DPS can be scarier than DPH (remember sins before morai, that was broken beyond repair)

i am just saying that we shoulda've gotten different kind of defensive features with NH patch

not a resistance passive buff that ****s up purge, ****s up debuffs (and most of the non op classes rely on one or both of these features)

instead of: Increased resistances value by 80%
something like: You take 40% less damage from skills

that coulda've been the smart way to balance it out, not the brainless sh.it they pulled there

for instance: you didnt even realize but NH patch grounded wizards,
all other Arcane classes gained epic DPS,

classes like mystics, a mere support class, gained an outstanding DPS

wizard never had DPS cause of the nature of our skillset,

and guess what? our DPH got nerfed to the ground!!!

starting from the debuffs nerf and ending with increasing all classes base damage values,

giving a lesser damage differential from wizard "ultimate" skills to any other class damage skills (even basic ones)!
(wizard has the lowest base damage among arcane classes, in a meta where basically the skill damage is all about base damage, AND ROFL WE ARE EVEN THE ONLY DPH CLASS BETWEEN THE AA CLASSES!!1 WHY DIS)

i would be fine with our DPH getting nerfed, but give us at LEAST the DPS, but nope, not even that.

at the current state of the game we are left with (almost) nothing

guiz, I can't faceroll my keyboard and spark combo people to death anymore. This is a tragedy.

iperen wrote: »

I thought this was about pvp more then pve. You must have searched very hard to come up with these "arguments" b:laugh Aqua impact and spirit blast in pvp, lol. VD cyclone spam, yeah sure. BMs can stunlock, nothing new. Stun = more dps ??? Wizards got a use again for their other shields, but the use of those in pvp is quite limited. I could agree on the sin, but that's all.

Every millisecond counts and the casting time is indeed lowered, numbers don't lie no matter how small, so that qualifies as an 'increase' even if it's not much. BM can stunlock but it can trigger purify spell during delivering damage in between stunlock, with the new mechanic of the new stun, I didn't mean it equals to more dps directly but it can be utilized to deliver more damage without triggering purify spell and even bypasses anti stun then deliver the damage..

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

after-NH res passives, chars have almost cap resistance values @ purged (80% damage redux+), which is i have really no words for that, perhaps misconcepted, misdesigned, idiotic etch

80% damage redux is nowhere near cap. It means 20% damage received.
The cap is 95% damage redux. It means 5% damage received.

Let's put a number in it, if an archer has 40k dmg, pvp dmg would be 10,000.
5% dmg = 500
20% dmg = 2000
500 compared to 2000 = 75% less damage. When shooting from air to ground target we suffer 50% less damage, but this is 75% less.

another example, 1% damage redux added to a 90% damage redux equals to 10% damage redux.
lets put the same damage into it , 10% from 10k = 1000, 9% from 10k = 900. The difference is 100 damage, 100/1000 = 10% less damage.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Archer is the only class that has had no decent update for Primal because of weapon purge, so it decidedly nerfs them more than anyone else. Wizards, barbs, and clerics have gotten very decent updates compared to the **** skills archers got last update and cannot be even considered in the same league of suck as archers. Barb is probably one of the best class right now.

Agree on the barb part, I hate barbs more than others, I'm glued to where I stand most of the time. And they can also amp damage now, I've tested it and it works for other classes' skill. And it can stack with other barb.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

What really offsets the defense buffs are the high damage nukes certain classes got (and certain classes didn't) Bottom line is, last update was not kind to archers but was very kind to certain other classes.

Archers got the worst primal skills, so yea I have to agree on this one also, I was more excited with morai skills than primals, I'm even disappointed having my archer skills merged for Feather Armageddon and lost the single target one.

---

Can any endgame archer give me your Gear Defense Value , you can get it easily by subtracting your current defense with your own defense AFTER using Genie Skill FRENZY (buffed or not doesn't matter as long as both are calculated from the same buff state).

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

@asterelle: awaken

@Eoria: spark combo was and still is predictable and counterable unlike paralyze or tidal

@Q: my 3spark ip undine spark pyro on an endgame bm is between 15 and 20k
and yea i ofc deal lot more on LAs, almost twice as much.
high damage nukes: don't forget we aren't playing a retail private server with the ideal endgame scenario, on PWI S card sets aren't really affordable, we do not really have the Base Damage values that had been designed for the endgame.
What we are currently allowed to play is something mid-endgame where the damage that has been given didn't scale with the defense that has been given

@freijin: 80% damage reduction is endgame res value, if 0% = no res, and 95% = max res,
80% is clearly "almost" cap resistance
you also need to check which kind of resistance values we had at endgame pre-nh scenario, something like less than half of what we have now

That endgame cards will also scale up the defense/hp as well, not only damage.

80% damage reduction = 20% damage received, compared to max res which is 95% is like I stated earlier, 80% vs 95% is still a very wide gap. You just have to see it from the damage received side.

The max res pre NH at 90 compared to 95 after NH is only 5%, but it equals to HALF damage.
- archer with 40k dmg (10k pvp dmg) attacking 90% resistance = 1000
- archer with 80k dmg (20k pvp dmg) attacking 95% resistance = 1000
It's only 5%, but it equals to 200% base damage.

The defense value for reaching 90% is 37,575 defense in char stat.
The defense value for reaching 95% is 79,317 defense in char stat.

The defense value for reaching 97.5% is 162,792. It doesn't exist, buf if following the same pw formula that's how much defense value we must have to reach that much resistance. It's only 2.5% more resistance but it's twice++ from 95%. The archer damage will also have to be doubled to 160k dmg. It's 2.5% but it equals to 200% base damage at this point.

Without primal passive everyone will be very squishy and I believe we will still QQ

iperen wrote: »

Archer auto-attacks being nerfed for no reason by something that was meant for sins = a constructive argument.
Archer skills having outdated channel+cast+cd+cost on skills = a constructive argument.
Archers relying on auto-attacks by their r9rr set and the above = a constructive argument.
Archers crits being nerfed for no reason by something that was meant for sins = a constructive argument.
Coming up with a bunch of non-sense over classes you obviously don't know = QQ

There are some very valid arguments but since 2008, archers continuously state they are so weak while ingame it's 1 of the most played classes. As psychic I had my up and down periods, deal with it or play the reroll game.

I have a psy and I know the skills, I don't mind with QQ because we can still learn something from it. If you say the lowered cast time on psy doesn't matter, next update we should ask the devs to increase the cast time like before and see if it will raise any QQ or not.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

not really!!

we would have an increase of few ks of resistances value that would be barely relevant (a fraction of a one percent) since you need 30-40k more to have a consistent improvement of the damage reduction coming from them (as you mentioned from 90% to 95%),

but we would have increases of tens of ks of base damage value cause at the current state of the game we can almost touch 1k attribute points

thats imo the 2nd best component of the major PWI NH fvck up

On PWI
resistances are at a value lets say 98% of what designed for the endgame (random lvl 80 S cards)

base damage is at at a value lets say 65-70% of what designed for the endgame (random lvl 80 S cards)

for comparison and example, my current wizard has 48-50k base damage and 20k base p res

if my wizard would have a 2nd reborn nuema portal set, it would have 25k base p res but 68-70k base magic attack (and wizard has the lowest weapon damage among Arcane classes)

and that is even more substantial in classes that have an high weapon damage such as archers


i repeat if we want to balance the game out we need the removal of primal resistance passives and perhaps add a passive skills that gives plain damage reduction (like you take x% less damage from skills)
and we need S card sets to be really affordable


buuuut, this will never happen knowing the company and seeing how things are going, and i don't even know why are we discussing this, prolly cause we are all bored

I can somehow relate to that, the scale of damage vs resistance is a bit heavy on the resistance side without S or sets. In your example that'd increase 40% damage but only about 17% resistance which is favourable toward damage. Though it will vary wildly for every character and build and whatnot, it'd be hard to measure, but I see your point. I still see it a bit differently but it's probably just me.b:victory

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't reply inline, it makes quoting more annoying.

Sins don't use APS anymore. They use elimination. There is no archer equivalent since archer skills are sht.

Frost Splash was supposed to be the Archer elimination I think but it is spread over WAY too wide an interval. If it would function like a machine gun, unloading the entire salvo in under 2 seconds, then archers could become scary again and have a charm bypass ability...

Seeing good suggestions here, but given the trend that's been going on since the Earthguard were new classes is that the newest class seems to have to be able to pvp dominate (to force the pay to win crowd to roll and kit out one of those classes - a sneaky ploy that's worked quite well from the look of things), we're not likely to see a power boost to archers.

I will say that if Stormbringers are going to be dominating in PvP... Archers are likely the best counter to those, with ranged physical being their main tool, which is the achilles heel of the Stormbringer.

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

Frost Splash was supposed to be the Archer elimination I think but it is spread over WAY too wide an interval. If it would function like a machine gun, unloading the entire salvo in under 2 seconds, then archers could become scary again and have a charm bypass ability...

Just to make clear the difference in quality between Frost Splash and Elimination
Frost splash deals around 200% total base damage, costs 2 sparks, and has a 3 minute cooldown
Elimination deals around 370% total base damage, gives 30 chi, and has a 15 second cooldown

Just looking at the numbers makes it easy to identify which is archer-quality.

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

I will say that if Stormbringers are going to be dominating in PvP... Archers are likely the best counter to those, with ranged physical being their main tool, which is the achilles heel of the Stormbringer.

You think archers can counter a class that has resistance to purge and reduces normal arrow damage by 22%? Considering reaper form is totally immune to purge and gives +300% pdef I think other casters would have an easier time killing them.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i didnt express it good yea and i also thought that as an LA class, archer cards would've been nerfed like sins and duskblade ones but those are not, so a RB S set can potentially give an archer a very nice boost in base damage.

Duskblades have identical card bonus as archer only sin attack cards are nerfed.

Ultimately the overall percentage increase of the base damage is however much weapon attack you get from the card divided by how much weapon attack you already have. Archer base damage is going up by the smallest percentage by virtue of having high weapon attack.

The crit or even masteries don't really factor if you're only looking at what percentage the base damage goes up by.

You may say 'haha archer had high weapon attack' but that does not translate into archer having highest overall base damage (I already said why casters have higher) or doing the most damage from skills (because of skill quality) or doing the most damage from normal attacks (because of GoF / aps / wolfemblem) so the point is moot.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just to make clear the difference in quality between Frost Splash and Elimination
Frost splash deals around 200% total base damage, costs 2 sparks, and has a 3 minute cooldown
Elimination deals around 370% total base damage, gives 30 chi, and has a 15 second cooldown

Just looking at the numbers makes it easy to identify which is archer-quality.

You think archers can counter a class that has resistance to purge and reduces normal arrow damage by 22%? Considering reaper form is totally immune to purge and gives +300% pdef I think other casters would have an easier time killing them.

Duskblades have identical card bonus as archer only sin attack cards are nerfed.

Ultimately the overall percentage increase of the base damage is however much weapon attack you get from the card divided by how much weapon attack you already have. Archer base damage is going up by the smallest percentage by virtue of having high weapon attack.

The crit or even masteries don't really factor if you're only looking at what percentage the base damage goes up by.

You may say 'haha archer had high weapon attack' but that does not translate into archer having highest overall base damage (I already said why casters have higher) or doing the most damage from skills (because of skill quality) or doing the most damage from normal attacks (because of GoF / aps / wolfemblem) so the point is moot.

never said that archers have the highest base damage cause ofc they dont and will never have it,

i just said that since archers are an LA class (with high crit rate) w\o having the damage cards nerfed like sins or duskblades
(duskblades S cards are nerfed like assassins at least one my friend that is owning an S card on a duskblade told me that has same value as assassins)

they just would get a nice boost from the 2nd rb nuema portal, surely a better boost in base damage value respect what the other LA classes would get

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

never said that archers have the highest base damage cause ofc they dont and will never have it,

...

they just would get a nice boost from the 2nd rb nuema portal, surely a better boost in base damage value respect what the other LA classes would get

Nope.

1) your friend is wrong and duskblade gets the same weapon attack as Archer and everyone else.
2) the real relative benefit is from the percentage the base damage goes up. I'm pretty sure sins base damage goes up by a higher percentage despite having less weapon attack since their base damage is I think around 2/3 Archer and they get 3/4 the weapon attack. This makes their overall damage increase by a larger percentage and thus they derive more benefit from their cards.

Of the three LA classes archers receive the least relative increase in damage from cards due to having a high attack weapon combined with slow attack and low damage skills.

bloodedone87 wrote: »

OMG you are aliveb:shocked

Nah. It's just my ghost.

Only way archers really OP now is if your that one archer on harshlands who has nuema portal set. Stunning a casters pointless ur auto attk rite after just sets off their auto purify and they can kill you. Magic classes do 30k+ crits max crit ive seen archers do are 10-17k on fully geared people. Archers account now just gets used to farm a new mag class unless they buff them...