Farming Toon

Saying a sin can't reach a comfortable and safe farming grade is BS. Can't think of any other way to put it. Have you PVEed lately? There's nothing that isn't a cake walk in aps at this point for me, and my aps set has fallen far behind... and I'm not living on a charm either.

Also, about 10% of the time I hit upwards of 225k unsparked with auto attacks the majority of the rest around 100k. With my old NV3+11 daggers I hit a bit harder and still was backed with a lot more crit and accuracy.

As far as your point about Barbs having a permanent pdef debuff, BMs do pretty well between HF and Glacial... You might also look as your need to use your debuff as just a replacement of chi management of classes that don't have to amp their damage just for mobs. You'll almost never see a damage increase of 100% between your 100str genie + class debuffs. BMs can.. 1 skill.. and better if they toss in an extreme poison or tangling mire or glacial. And anyone can have an army of genies. I have 4 that serve different purposes.

Genies were a nice touch. Shows you're really grasping at straws now.

As for the OP, if you're starting to look at higher budgets as time goes on, consider that survivability passed a certain point doesn't help, while damage does (and can help survivability). So while at lower refined builds you might want to consider trading out speed for greater survivability, at higher refines the tankier Barbs, and BMs will cap at a much lower overall efficiency in terms of speed when it comes to farming. Still ALL great choices. Though if your budget on your server is enough to get you a decent +10 weapon, 4.0 APS (with spark or windshield), 9k hp unbuffed from refines and shards (8k would probably do for a sage), ~5k pdef unbuffed you'll be able to handle everything in TT (buffed) short of possibly Steelation, Emperor and Armageddon after you learn the bosses' tricks. Depending on how skilled you are, you can do more and get by with less. If you've enough available funds, and plan on developing your toon into a better farmer as time goes on, I'd go with a sin.

Muzaki - Morai wrote: »

Ok so I'm able to raise my budget to 500mil now since some items sold more refines and more upgrades for the class i choose

at this point alot of the rabid posters have probably already skipped over the fact that there was a budget involved b:surrender 500m ideally would help you build a farming sin, this including the refines/shards if you try not to rush it too much.
Ever since the tideborn came out, technically the farming instances havnt changed a whole lot. Im reading back on some things and altho ther are a couple classes listed as choices, id stick with sin.
The farming itself is a very routine process and the only 'tricky' part with sins are timing the 3sparks/apoth/genie. Until i had my seeker decked out i used to farm TT with my aps+5 sin

Muzaki - Morai wrote: »

Ok so I'm able to raise my budget to 500mil now since some items sold more refines and more upgrades for the class i choose

Sage sins. DO NOT listen to people that say mystic. Sage sins solo the FASTEST, FC AND TT. Mystics while fast in FC, aren't the best at killing very fast in TT....no self healing+massive constant damage at the same time....they have to choose between healing or hitting, unlike sage sins.

Oh and before someone says "I can heal myself while my storm mistress dds"....Storm's DD doesn't compare to that of sins. So don't even go there.

P.S. I'm not dissing mystics. I'm simply stating the best possible farming class he can make for 500m. Pangu around 300m. and the last 200m for APS gear/G16 high refined daggers and some good refines on armor(assuming he makes the armor, not buys)

BTW, APS toons are the best at farming TT or FC, but it there is much more to do out there that also makes a good profit like FW and FSP.

So you might as well just build the toon you like to bring to endgame and start "farming' with that. Doing some different things makes gaming more enjoyable than spending all your time in TT anyway

Joe - Morai wrote: »

seitori wrote: »

the quotes are getting longer and longer here xD

I think you missunderstood me there. the 28-32,5k I mentioned are not dmg. this is what is displayed in the chara menu while I'm sparked. Judging from the numbers you wrote...well on a normal mob within the range of 3 lvl of me I deal 22 to 44k dmg unsparked (upper number is crit) and about 42-84k sparked. Even a +12 G16 Dag sin from my Faction (regular aps gear) does not have that attack stat. Ofc they got more crit and all...but still, I can tank anything while a sin cannot. (ya Wolf Emblem is nice too ofc, dmg-wise)

OFC a max Build 5.0 r9rr dags sin can out DD me without any problem. Not denying that. any r9rr dag sin with even just 4.0 can out dd me..while the difference then isn't as big as one would think. Still if you count in all points while soloing bosses ( dmg, time, comfort, safety, charm, aso) then aps barbs are far superior. Sins can reach way more dmg, but they can never reach the comfort and survivability.

Oh ok, now I see what ya meant initially, and what you've said here is true... b:victory

guys...dont just pick out a few lines from me and quote me on it...you have to read the whole thing and I really have to explain it all I guess...well Nah I won't.

what is your problem? do you really think a sin on a 500m bidget can tank anything just like that? No. Will an equivalent APS Barb be able to tank more? Yes ofc. You all are so bound to dmg...idonteven...you know...there are some instance where triple spark + autoattack isn't enough. where yOu actually have to do something.

You can surely roll a sin on that budget if you wanna stick to low TTs like 3-1,2-3,3-2 (partially) but there is more ingame then just these few TTs. you think a sin can tank a full delta on that budget? or tank a Boss in warsong? or effectively do PV, or full fcs? or AOE-grinding and so on? Especially when you look at flowsilver...who needs sins there? ai actually just take them along for BP if I'm going with a squad and yes, the most are still apsing even those bosses. Do we need even more braindead afk-apsers? No. Do we need skilled Barbs?! Yes ofc.

A full +7 with maybe +10-ish weap Barb would be possible with 500m...A sin? nope because you have to get rank first and you will be very squishy before full +10 at least...and even then...no skill to effectively and surely protect yourself...so. Get your own picture. I went well as an Aps barb.

Edit: Plus what everyone seems to forget is, that those 500m have to cover up skills and stuff as well. I got a sin twink whos full +7 aps gear with a +7 weap and some cards with around 11k HP buffed. Sage ofc. This sin can't tank anything, yeah its enough for FC, but it's not like thats anything to begin with, I spend around 200m on skills alone on my sin and it was a buff twink to begin with...so xD good luck with a sin for 500m.

http://pwcalc.com/ab4a6668a0eaa6e2

thats about what my 2.5 aps sage sin is running, 6k hp, slightly more dex from reawaken, but only lvl 93, can solo all of FF and 1 pull BR without a single charm tick. If that helps

Also, easily obtainable with 350m

I don't know what prices are like on Morai which is why I said IF his budget can...

*Looks at +7 APS set* - how is it that I solo every TT boss with this? Just because you can't doesn't mean it's not possible. TBH, at +10/11k hp especially on a sage sin, you should easily handle tanking most of TT (even 3-3) without any skill. Just as I would get frustrated at the slowness of running an APS barb, I suspect you would have trouble adjusting to the edge-walk which is sin tanking which sounds to be the case. I will never claim to know how to play an APS barb, and you, sir, shouldn't claim to know what you're doing with your sin if you can't handle a full FC on yours. If you try to just spark and auto attack, especially with a sage sin, you're doing it wrong.

Again, I don't know the prices, though from what you've said I suspect it is possible to make a +7 sin for the 500m budget. WS bosses and full FCs absolutely a +7 can handle tanking. Full delta... yeah no... PV... yeah no... A full delta takes a minimum of 90min and isn't gonna be soloed on a 500m APS barb. No one 'farms' PV and again an APS Barb isn't gonna be capable enough at 500m to try and sell runs. The reason that the focus is on TT is because FC is a cakewalk and the OP specified no others.

I've watched while on my alt a barb (admittedly a bad one) go down at the frog, while one of these "braindead" APS-geared sins (spamming skills with chill) tanked for the rest of the battle which lasted at least a dozen more axes (weak squad). He had just over 10k hp buffed. I've tanked that boss on my sin.. It's not easy. But it's not nearly as hard as you think if you can pilot your sin well. I do agree on one thing you've said... we need no more braindead APSers, Mr. APS Barb.

Two parts bug me about this discussion. First, that while the APS Barb is very much a valid candidate for the OP and what he's hoping to accomplish, it's probably not gonna be received so well when your misinformed comparisons force the focus of discussion on the APS Barb's shortcomings (which to you are apparently non-existent), instead of focusing on what it can do for the OP. You've tried to debase both sins and bms in terms of damage, then when that didn't work you moved on to what a sin can't do in terms of survivability all the while spewing inaccuracies and/or false assumptions. Secondly, this thread is supposed to be about which class would be good for the OP in TT and Frost. It's not about PV, FS, GV, your gear, my gear, and certainly was never supposed to be focused on APS barbs vs sins. If you want to speak to the merits of your class then do so please as I imagine you're one of those with the most experience with it and it will certainly be more helpful to the OP. But leave the other classes, of which you seem ill-informed on, out of it. You'll be doing the promoters of your build a service.

Returning to topic and to sum it up for the OP as I see it if expanding to higher budgets:

Low budget (+5) (Sin more expensive)
APS Barb - Okay damage - Good Survivability (Crazy repair bill)
BM - Okay damage - Good Survivability (High repair bill)
Sin - Good damage - Questionable Survivability (Likely need charm and lots of pots)

Mid Budget (+7) (Sin a little more expensive)
APS Barb - Good Damage - Great Survivability (High repair bill)
BM - Good Damage, Good Survivability
Sin - Great Damage, Okay Survivability (Refining weapon ahead of armor at this point will free you of dependency on pots)

High Budget (Pre-R9) (+10) (Negligible difference in cost)
APS Barb - Good Damage - Amazing survivability
BM - Great Damage - Great Survivability
Sin - Amazing Damage - Good Survivability

Endgame Budget (APS builds only - R93 where applicable) (Barb and Sin comparable, BM least expensive)
APS Barb - Amazing Damage - Godly Survivability
BM - Great Damage - Amazing Survivability
Sin - Godly Damage - Great Survivability

*All builds listed above can do frost pretty easily at the low budget. Below +5 a sin will have trouble staying alive soloing most TTs higher than 2-1 and struggle in parts of frost. Also below +5 damage differences between these 3 classes is negligible.
**Survivability is your margin for error. Questionable leaves almost no room for mistakes, whereas Godly implies you could afk and a charm would sustain you until it ran out. At the low and mid budget you might give a sage sin a bump up in survivability.
***Damage - as a rough estimate add one spark to kill as you go down the chain to kill the BR boss. Godly - 1, Amazing - 2, and so on. In no way is this precise.

-Edit- In regards to your latest post while I was making my wall of text - A fully jaded G15 APS sin is no where near as tanky as it's r93 counterpart. Far from unkillable. But yes would out DD anything out there so long as their target stood still long enough (not very long needed in all fairness) and didn't have bramble. Though I think the loss of ~70 Attack levels (chill and set bonus), ~160 dex (set bonus and equipment stats), 25 defence level and a decent chunk of hp/def going from r93 down to r8r/nv2 against a fully jaded r93 toon who didn't just stand there would severely hinder it's long term potential. The passive skill damage upgrades won't help the r8r's case either. APS in PVP is more or less a thing of the past at endgame. Ironically, it only really works on barbs and you better have him locked down with genie spent before attempting it.. fully jaded might be relatively safe in this case though. How is favor shifting to aps?

BTW max bonus for sins for phys damage is 2.5k through maxed/2xrebirthed full nuema portal set.

I'm curious as to why you say a barb relevels faster? Just looking for justification on this one as you could be right. But anyone with a decent set of gear can hit 100 pretty easily in 1-3 days without buying rooms etc. Keep in mind you need to hit ~level 60 before you can wear that APS gear (goes for barb bm and sin) if you rebirth at 100. Perhaps that is part of your justification?

Joe - Morai wrote: »

I need to put something clear as it nearly doesn't come up from your huge wall of text. Being able to solo stuff on a sin always means that you need to be charmed. You can play as good as you want, without a charm you are never able to tank Emperor or Steelation, or even Collou when Purge hits as a sin.

TT3-3 and 3-2 revolve around emperor (mostly 3-2) and steelation/Collou (3-3) as the hardest but also most profitable bosses. So you are going to tell me that you are able to tank those bosses? with 11k HP..charmless? ya ofc. Charm or not when the bubble from Emperor hits you you're dead, same goes for steelations proc. Actually my mistake was, that I havn't made clear that all other bosses are jokes to begin with and not worth the time of anyone to even mention. any standard aps geared sin can take them on.

The major problem I got with your response is that while I never would doubt that what you'rr saying is true...well can you reproduce the victory over said bosses a 100% of all times you try them...or will in case of said TT bosses luck matter (lucky with procs and tidal etc)?

Your mistake is that you believe the OP can just come up with a amazing playstyle and walk through everything like nothing. Thats why I prefer APS Barbs. you dont have to rage every once in a while cuz a boss killed you out of bad luck, because as an aps barb you dont die at a certain gear point. That means you can safe yourself alot of time and alot of trouble! Even with a low budget like this the failure rate is way lower with a Barb.

To FC: Ofc anyone with +5 G15+ Daggers can kill all the most in FC with the right APO and stuff. But if you do a mistake then you're dead and maybe wasted lots of stuff. While nearly anything is trial and error...I would not prefer the high rate of deaths on a sin over a Barb or BM.

Playing this game for over 5 years now and be sure, I can play any class to the fullest. But you forget the thing that the OP maybe can't. I kinda read through his lines that want as much comfort as he can get while farming stuff and thats what my whole statement was built on. Not walking on the edge of survival while doing anything and being in stress all the time. Surely that creates maybe great gamers that know their class...but seriously. If the OP would be one of them he never had asked in the first place cuz ppl like that find their own way no matter what.

Even if it sounds a bit like I'm kinda angry, I'm not. I like discussions like that. Although I often leave things out while explaining stuff please don't mistake me for someone you can't do some things...I just forget to mention it or am too lazy, or both.

And you continue to proclaim what people can do with a sin, as if you and only you are the supreme authority on what is possible.

If you had focused as much attention on your sin as you have put toward your barb, and actually learned the class as well as we have then you would learn *how* to tank whatever bosses you need to tank. If you had actually read any of these responses you would see that some of us have managed to do what you say can't be done, regularly. So your need to continue to tell us assassins that we simply can't do what we do every day, and are wasting our time trying to do what we do every day, and will only wise up when we quit that and roll an APS barb is getting more than a little tedious.

Yes, you can do what you do on a barb. Yes, OP can *also* do what he wants to do with a sin. These statements aren't mutually exclusive.

Except for at least one person here.

Joe - Morai wrote: »

I need to put something clear as it nearly doesn't come up from your huge wall of text. Being able to solo stuff on a sin always means that you need to be charmed. You can play as good as you want, without a charm you are never able to tank Emperor or Steelation, or even Collou when Purge hits as a sin.

TT3-3 and 3-2 revolve around emperor (mostly 3-2) and steelation/Collou (3-3) as the hardest but also most profitable bosses. So you are going to tell me that you are able to tank those bosses? with 11k HP..charmless? ya ofc. Charm or not when the bubble from Emperor hits you you're dead, same goes for steelations proc. Actually my mistake was, that I havn't made clear that all other bosses are jokes to begin with and not worth the time of anyone to even mention. any standard aps geared sin can take them on.

The major problem I got with your response is that while I never would doubt that what you'rr saying is true...well can you reproduce the victory over said bosses a 100% of all times you try them...or will in case of said TT bosses luck matter (lucky with procs and tidal etc)?

Your mistake is that you believe the OP can just come up with a amazing playstyle and walk through everything like nothing. Thats why I prefer APS Barbs. you dont have to rage every once in a while cuz a boss killed you out of bad luck, because as an aps barb you dont die at a certain gear point. That means you can safe yourself alot of time and alot of trouble! Even with a low budget like this the failure rate is way lower with a Barb.

To FC: Ofc anyone with +5 G15+ Daggers can kill all the most in FC with the right APO and stuff. But if you do a mistake then you're dead and maybe wasted lots of stuff. While nearly anything is trial and error...I would not prefer the high rate of deaths on a sin over a Barb or BM.

Playing this game for over 5 years now and be sure, I can play any class to the fullest. But you forget the thing that the OP maybe can't. I kinda read through his lines that want as much comfort as he can get while farming stuff and thats what my whole statement was built on. Not walking on the edge of survival while doing anything and being in stress all the time. Surely that creates maybe great gamers that know their class...but seriously. If the OP would be one of them he never had asked in the first place cuz ppl like that find their own way no matter what.

Even if it sounds a bit like I'm kinda angry, I'm not. I like discussions like that. Although I often leave things out while explaining stuff please don't mistake me for someone you can't do some things...I just forget to mention it or am too lazy, or both.

I can do it with the build I posted with just 1 dew of protection and just my bp. No other buffs and no charm ticks. Easily done with about 10 seconds worth of time left for mistakes. Please don't say other people can't do something because you can't. If you know your char. You can do more than you think.