Farming Toon

Haila - Sanctuary

Joe is right and aps barb is the best option. I had 5.0 sins, bms and barbs, and from my experiences the barb was able to solo things far earlier than bm and sin. Why? The barb has much more hp and defense, Solid shield is better than any other skill of bm or sin except bloodpaint b:chuckle

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

MissCherie - Harshlands wrote: »

I don't know if a sin with 6k hp can solo TT, maybe others can say what you could solo or not solo with a 6k hp sin. (I know 6k hp sins die pretty fast from AOE or if they get aggro for squad stuff like BH, WS etc..)

Maybe wait for some more feedback to see more opinions.

350m is a lot of money so it's really important that you don't regret your choice.

But the fact you have pwcalc for both will make it easier for people to help you.

Depends on whether the sin is 6k hp base or buffed. If it's 6k hp buffed he can solo quite a bit.
When my sin had 6.2k hp base (about 8.5k buffed), and G16+10(0.5 int, vit 18, hp+350) dags; I could solo:
1-1
1-2
1-3
2-1
2-2
2-3(up until Ancient Evil)
3-1
3-2(Emp is a long shot, and I could not solo steelation)

Please note my sin is also sage, and I have a genie designed mainly for TT back then (Zeal with EP, Mire, ToP, Earthflame, and Holy Path). However despite what this person says, 350m is not a lot of coin, in fact you are looking at 180-250m for highly refined daggers alone. I'd say for the cheapest farming toon, your barb would be the best bet, even if he is sage.

Why do i say that?
-Claws or fist (which ever you prefer) on average are 20-30% cheaper than daggers.
-You don't need r8 for fist builds.
-Higher HP and high aps at a lower cost due to not needing r8 and fist have a faster atk rate than daggers.
-Can wear 2 peices g16 for hp bonus

I made a build a while back for an aps barb: http://pwcalc.com/bd33201e20f00b1a
It's pretty cheap, and some of the peices can be used for pulls IE the rings and etc. The beauty of this is there is no tome req, and look at all the extra stat points. Which can be put into vit for more HP or str for more damage. But you would be restricted to this gear, so stat accordingly to your needs.

Muzaki - Morai

APS Barb huh. Switching to demon would probably be a good idea for that.

Axes- http://pwcalc.com/92bbf72051f07868

Claws- http://pwcalc.com/03777f238c7d1c63

Edit: Just saw your post Dion, they're pretty similar. The good thing if i went APS barb aswell is he's already leveled. My other classes are lower

Haila - Sanctuary

Muzaki - Morai wrote: »

APS Barb huh. Switching to demon would probably be a good idea for that.

Axes- http://pwcalc.com/92bbf72051f07868

Claws- http://pwcalc.com/03777f238c7d1c63

Edit: Just saw your post Dion, they're pretty similar. The good thing if i went APS barb aswell is he's already leveled. My other classes are lower

I would swap the chest and wrist piece, u can swap to r8 recast chest and boots HA when u have excess to it for -int interval and better survivability

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would swap the chest and wrist piece, u can swap to r8 recast chest and boots HA when u have excess to it for -int interval and better survivability

The benefit of this build is the sharability of the armors. A bm and even a sin can share these peices. HA chill sins aren't so bad.b:laugh

Haila - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The benefit of this build is the sharability of the armors. A bm and even a sin can share these peices. HA chill sins aren't so bad.b:laugh

yea thats true, i have sin on another account so i dont care b:chuckle

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear

Joe - Morai wrote: »

what a pitty most ppl here know nothing about the game mechanics.

Lovely to have you here. Thanks for insulting "most ppl" right off the bat - we really needed that.

Joe - Morai wrote: »

you can see that because anyone suggests sins for melee. on a 350m budget...you know an aps Barb would be the best choice by far. with a sin on that budget you can maybe kill some tt bosses and the bosses from FC. An Aps Barb can kill way more bosses + the whole FC including mobs without any trouble due to extremely higher survivability.

You're not gonna build an APS barb on a 350M budget, and you know it. Not having stealth alone means you have to kill everything you see, and *that* slows you down. Bad Farmer.

Joe - Morai wrote: »

roll a sin twink on another acc to get your bloodpaint buff rdy. thats what you meed a sin for

You can trust me on this

b:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckle

Joe - Morai wrote: »

because I farmed full r9 with that (as an aps Barb). do I have to say that nothing challanges me anymore and that I can do nearly anything solo? Havn't tried FSP yet, but due to the fact that I can dou it with a seeker it should be possible APS Barbs are so underestimated because it seems to be too hard for some ppl to think outside the box.

At least we can always depend on some APS barb to come into any conversation, and un-zip his/her fly. You have R9, you damn well better be able to chew through the content, even with a fairy wand. And an R9 *anything* doesn't need to be dropping "you need to do this this way" edicts on anyone with a 350M budget.

I have a sage sin equipped much like the PWcalcs above, at 4 aps, and can leisurely clear FC and farm TT1-3 bosses *on a macro*. I don't need to turn my Barb APS, because more people want it *as a tank*.

Farming toon is now a sin, much like veno used to be back in the day. Since they bugged some of the bosses to random aggro (to keep the Chinese farmers away) it's become much harder to veno, and faster to sin farm.

Good luck.

Joe - Morai

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lovely to have you here. Thanks for insulting "most ppl" right off the bat - we really needed that.



You're not gonna build an APS barb on a 350M budget, and you know it.



b:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckle



At least we can always depend on some APS barb to come into any conversation, and un-zip his/her fly. You have R9, you damn well better be able to chew through the content, even with a fairy wand. And an R9 *anything* doesn't need to be dropping "you need to do this this way" edicts on anyone with a 350M budget.

I have a sage sin equipped much like the PWcalcs above, at 4 aps, and can leisurely clear FC and farm TT1-3 bosses *on a macro*. I don't need to turn my Barb APS, because more people want it *as a tank*.

Farming toon is now a sin, much like veno used to be back in the day. Since they bugged some of the bosses to random aggro (to keep the Chinese farmers away) it's become much harder to veno, and faster to sin farm.

Good luck.

how do you think I started out in this game? yep, with jack. I been through any possible gear stage possible since I was an aps barb since day one. A superior to sins aps Barb on a 350m budget is no problem and far more then what I had when I started farmen tt 3-x.

After all I never said you get r9 and all for 350m. I implied that the aps barb got the most potential. Compare my current build and you would see that neither bm or sin could reach my dmg/survivability ratio. never. Even in PVP, if you go for full str, you dont lack anything compared to a normal max str barb. I would always go for 200 dex nvm the gear. Anything below 10k accu is just pitiful today with all LAs Evasion is going high like nothing. APS Barbs got the most Potential for Farming and that is a undeniable truth.

one can stat some vit while the gear is not refined well and stuff, then again you could do that on bms/sins as well, but not as effective.

I always defended and will always defend this build simply because no one ever proofed that build fail. only blablabla anytime some ppl discuss about it. the best thing on low geared aps Barbs? you have to be able to play this freaking game else you will go down fast as hell. you can do alot and most of it better them comparable builds but I'm not denying that you need aloz of player skill in the low end section of gear. yes thats definitly a pro for aps barbs

Muzaki - Morai

I've got a question Joe. This would be my claw build http://pwcalc.com/03777f238c7d1c63 my hp is 12.5k if i take away those 50 vit points, and my damage goes from 7k to 7.6k, should i stick with 50vit points or boost my damage?

Joe - Morai

Muzaki - Morai wrote: »

I've got a question Joe. This would be my claw build http://pwcalc.com/03777f238c7d1c63 my hp is 12.5k if i take away those 50 vit points, and my damage goes from 7k to 7.6k, should i stick with 50vit points or boost my damage?

Stick with vit, the STR is not worth it atm. You can go full str if you got 20k HP buffed in Human Form with max STR, so around 23-24k with vit skilled...thats if you plan on allocating more points into vit which you can.

WannaBM - Archosaur

I changed from vit to str when i rebirthed. 17k standing before, 15k after. Feels good. The damage was just what i needed for agro keeping from +10 BM and a good range of sins and 15k HP is just right imo.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Dont mean to troll but these kinda threads always crack me up.

Its the PWI equivalent of guys discussing car builds and modding tips, swapping pwcalcs and modifying each others.

Almost like a hey bro nice aps barb build you got there! Whats that thing sitting on? Lemme tweak that for you, dropped a custom r8r driveshaft and some immac'ed g16 leggings bro, stock TM/cloud/EP genie as standard, that baby there will keep the repair costs low, maybe upgrade the fists once in a while, keep em nicely oiled and refined.

b:laugh

WannaBM - Archosaur

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dont mean to troll but these kinda threads always crack me up.

Its the PWI equivalent of guys discussing car builds and modding tips, swapping pwcalcs and modifying each others.

Almost like a hey bro nice aps barb build you got there! Whats that thing sitting on? Lemme tweak that for you, dropped a custom r8r driveshaft and some immac'ed g16 leggings bro, stock TM/cloud/EP genie as standard, that baby there will keep the repair costs low, maybe upgrade the fists once in a while, keep em nicely oiled and refined.

b:laugh

Cool, that means we are just like other people ! I was so afraid i was being a nerd b:laugh

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

hm.. so with a limited 350m budget is it safe to conclude that sin might be the prefered in terms of speed, survival, and versatility? ;o i see alot of extras added but they seem to be beyond this budget

peckked

Pre-r9, a bm is a much better option than an APS barb. Between dragons, glacial spike, and an applicable weapon mastery, a BM will out DD any barb with equivalent gear making runs faster and giving greater BP returns.

Personally, at the gear level the OP is looking at, any of the 3 will be limited in what they can achieve in TT. I would be surprised if any of them could do 3-2 Emperor/Steelation comfortably without spending half a charm. This basically means you're looking at 3-1 and below (possibly not including the last 2 bosses in 2-3). Any of these builds should be doable. The things to consider:

Looking for safer, more leisurely runs? APS Barb - Tankiest, won't break if you derp. Lowest DPS. I would suggest this if you don't mind waiting for things to die but need that safety net. Safest option for the unskilled. Go demon. The idea of a Sage APS barb... *shudders*

Looking for something in between? BM - Right in the middle for just about everything. Not as tanky as a barb, but not as squishy as a sin. Has the same gear as the barb, but has fist mastery, and dragons giving greater DPS overall. Proper use of the multitude of skills a BM has will speed up runs and improve survivability but isn't as needed as for a sin. Go demon. I've never seen a Sage APS BM... likely for a reason.

Looking for the fastest runs possible? Sin - Highest DPS, and has the potential to run the easier TTs and frost without begging around for buffs (or making a buff toon 'cause that'll just take a few seconds *sarcasm*). Squishiest, and requires the most attention as an ill-timed mistake or not using the right buff at the right time (Focused Mind, Tidal Protection, Deaden Nerves) can and will likely kill you in the higher TTs. I don't suggest this unless you want to invest your time really learning a class you don't really intend on playing since you're just making a farming toon. Demon will be the fastest overall, and typically is considered the easiest of farmers to use. Sage will give you some extra tankyness as a trade off for some damage and requires some chi management skills to keep up.

Oh... and don't listen to Joe.. he's a very capable APS barb and has always been so even prior to his R93. But he's jaded from all the APS barb hate he's had to deal with through the years and bases his responses on his emotional attachment rather than sound logic. APS Barbs can do a lot of things. One thing that APS Barbs can not do is out DPS comparably stat/leveled/geared/skilled Sins ever. And they only surpass BMs once they obtain R93. R93 weapon Sin with APS gear is unsurpassed for long term DPS when not considering the anti APS buff bosses which doesn't apply to this argument.

Joe (R93 APS - NV3+12 weapon)
NV3 Claws +40 Atk Levels
3 Sparks to 29-32.5k
Probably 20-30 crit%

Average R93+12 APS Sin
R93 Daggers +62 Atk Levels +GoF
3 Sparks to 32-37k
50 crit%

If Joe were 5APS, this sin would have to be 2.5APS or lower for him to do more damage. Reaching his damage doesn't require r8r. It doesn't even require a tome for a sage sin. Other factors play a role in this of course such as accuracy, buffs, debuffs, timing, chi management, but even if the barb were to do everything they could to amp their personal damage, a 4.0 demon sin could 3-spark auto-attack and stay ahead, or a sage sin spamming windshield for 3.33 and using 1 tackling slash for chi per cycle will still out DD the barb, and that's without considering wolf emblem. Joe's got the best possible APS Barb build possible and consequently feels that only the best sin APS setup (5.0 r8r +r93) should compete though this is far from reality. As you look at lower APS barb gear the advantage to a sin actually increases. Mind you that's just in terms of DPS, survivability would be reverse.

Muzaki - Morai

My sin is on a different account than my barb/cleric account so buffs are no problem...from what I'm seeing is APS barbs are pretty good endgame (r9s3) but i won't be achieving that for awhile...sin seems like it would probably be the best and fastest on budget...hmm....

http://pwcalc.com/bc052f8082b97ab5

Zoldi - Morai

MissCherie - Harshlands wrote: »

For melees, sin, if you prefer casters mystic.

And a mystic can definitely be one of the cheapest and most efficient bot (auto-culti) with good settings.

Muzaki - Morai

I'm about to put mystic and sin in a random list generator and pick which one it gives me.

Mystic it is, ty all for responses that allowed me to break it down to those 2 ^-^

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear

Joe - Morai wrote: »

APS Barbs got the most Potential for Farming and that is a undeniable truth.

I'm sure APS barbs are just wonderful, and **** rainbows on command. But the above statement is your *opinion*, and *not* "undeniable truth".

This is why your pronouncements are going to be ignored, and your useful suggestions and experience are thrown out the f'ing window. It's like a nicely mowed lawn with a giant horse **** in the middle - you ruined it.

It's a build, It's one of many ways to play the game - no more no less. If you want to further the cause of APS barbs everywhere, just point out the advantages without leaving a steaming pile on everyone else who doesn't do it.

Muzaki - Morai

As i previously said if i do choose either mystic or veno I will be able to account stash all the gear

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

hm.. so with a limited 350m budget is it safe to conclude that sin might be the prefered in terms of speed, survival, and versatility? ;o i see alot of extras added but they seem to be beyond this budget

Sin's actually cost the most due to survivability issues. For FC it's cheap, but once you step into the TT world, the class requires time and money to not ** up. Barbs survive being purged the easiest, and being debuffed; sins do not, even with tidal up if a debuff gets through it's going to hurt, where as barbs have invoke.

Peckked has the best response and thats pretty much all we need to know about the 3.

Barb- safest, lowest DD, most versitility for price
BM-mid safety, mid DD
Sin-fastest hand down, squishiest, requires the most investment to do harder bosses (skill and coin wise)

To do harder bosses, barbs are the cheapest due to tiger form, the ability to rebuff themselves, and invoke. Require the least investment just to get them done (this has nothing to do with speed).

X_volcano_y - Harshlands

My suggestion is veno....i am a full g16 veno with herc+ dino (with claw strong and protect).
1.i solo fc in 25min with 4-5 mp pots and no hp pots.
2. TT i have never tried higher than 3-1 squad mode and i do all except gba boss( can do with a cleric tho)
3.All squads will take at least 1veno...and not really picky on veno gear just lvl11 amp

Muzaki - Morai

X_volcano_y - Harshlands wrote: »

My suggestion is veno....i am a full g16 veno with herc+ dino (with claw strong and protect).
1.i solo fc in 25min with 4-5 mp pots and no hp pots.
2. TT i have never tried higher than 3-1 squad mode and i do all except gba boss( can do with a cleric tho)
3.All squads will take at least 1veno...and not really picky on veno gear just lvl11 amp

Would evolved phoenix be faster than a dino or about the same?

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Phoenix has the same APS and higher attack, so (assuming equal moods) the phoenix will be faster.

Muzaki - Morai

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Phoenix has the same APS and higher attack, so (assuming equal moods) the phoenix will be faster.

ok, thanks

X_volcano_y - Harshlands

Well my dino got 6.8k atk without claw...idk about nixes.
And A nix with defense legend skills cost far more and no "free" option...not to mention dino's exclusive skill.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Base attack (check when not summoned) for an evolved 101 dino is 4182.
Base attack for an evolved 101 nix is 5010.

Inheritances can give a given dino higher attack than a given nix, but nix has maximum attack inheritance of 75% (compared to dino's 70%) and attack level inheritance of 90% (compared to dino's 50%.)

Joe - Morai

hey! I am not emotionally attached on aps Barbs! I made a clear choice of being an aps barb out of reasons.

what should I say, in the end you can break it down to the genie, really. Barbs can built the best max STR genies there are. 100 str will grant you a mighty Solid Shield, ToP and Tangling Mire.

I don't see why (especially on a low budget) a sin should do significantly more dmg...and why a bm? geez guys not going to be mean...but seriously thibk before yoi write something. Do I really have to explain everything? where's the edge to common sense here?

A barb has a permanent 50% pdef debuff which increases dmg by around 40% in PvE...even penetrate armor with 30/35% will do if you stack that up with Tangling Mire which would then cause a debuff that will let you inflict nearly double the dmg with an ease. Think HF and Subsea are better? nope. you don't need any chi management on your Barb. And why the hell do you guys think bms deal that much more dmg while nearly the whole gear is the same?! the mastery? ahahaha. have you ever looked into it how small that gain in PAtt really is? especially on a budget twink? even poison fang covers that up alone.

Demon would be the way to go and opens up some other nice gimmicks for barbs...strenght of the titans to increase the crit rate of the whole squad or your own before a fight. Bestial onslaught to boost your own crit even over to one of a sin (nearly spammable).

But yeah...aps barbs are the worst DDs ever..I'm not even going to start about survivability...gosh I played those classes for ages...sin, bm, barb. I know what they can do. do you?

The list could go on a bit, but I don't wanna write I book. If you still unsure then do some research.

Veno: I love Venos and stuff but if you really wanna earn money these days...skip that. Venos and especially the great pets are expensive as heck..

seitori

Joe - Morai wrote: »

slamstone wrote: »

ok so at this moment in game (i'm not arguiging for what it was in the past) what you farm with that aps barb besides TT? ----> nw? fsp? bh's? map5 bosses?

with the result of your farming what do you do? PVP? TW? NW?


what bosses u tank/hold agro on by apsing, if we suppose there is a 350m aps sin or a 350m aps bm in squad?

Me? xD I can Hold aggro on any Boss. If the Boss is imbued with an APS-Debuff then I go and spamm Skill on it like in FSP. I just recentlich did a Full Delta solo (charmless) while just having some friends + twinks in there for buffs.

I am currently at a phys attack around 29-32,5k triple Sparked with claws @663 Str. Thats without Bloodrush. No average G16 sin can Out DD me. I only fall pray to r9 dags with r8r and especially with att-lvl gems.

??? ^^ b:puzzled ^^ ???

Look I'm honestly happy for you that you've been capable of having mastered an APS Barb build (not many either have or can) but my 'Sage Sin' is about as average as it can be at 100th level ((though compared to other sins in my fac its weak & undergeared)) but even with a basic APS mix of 'TT99's, an R8 Chest, Awakened LAs & a mediocre +5 to my G16 daggers (which have neither GoF or Sac Strike) I still hit more times then not for over 20-25K (non-sparked) >,<' and can hit 'Triple Sparked' up to a '50 & even 60k easily' on mobs and quite a few of the bosses (which is still 'pretty much' ****, when compared to truly well geared Sins (the sins 'Crit Bonus' for it being a 'Dex based character' is the greatest telltale in that rating) > and I can still combine that with just the occasional 'lv-10 Relentless Courage' Genie skill (so as not to have it counter my sins sage spark, unlike windshield>b:sad) on my enhanced 'Infliciton genie' & I can easily 4.0 all of that damage /or/ I can just as easily use '3x spams' of 'Extreme Poisons' on my genie b4 it needs to refill itself (to amplify the damages and still do a DPS variation of damages) equal to the aps rating damages easily and I'm still not even the owner of an Int. Tome?? (cries!? For my poor pathetic sin b:cry)

"Needless to say though, I'm still not one who likes to to be a costant APS based 'Wind shredder' on heavier Bosses and I still prefer being a 'skill Spammer' with Sage CoTD active on squads, or just go basic interval spammer on bosses while solo, since I can build-up 3-spark chi much faster then I usually would just aps'ing away on things > and as any serious Sin farmer would tell you anyways 'aps'ing on bosses' is just for us to keep up the hitpoints while we trash them anyways, its not like we don't ever use stints of our sins skills in either 'single use, or combo, or all out spamming' on them throughout the fight aswell < To just simply take them all out while just going aps is boring & technically not very efficient ~ when considering what sins skills can actually be used to do..."


((But what I'm trying to say here is that sins only fall short of barbs in certain ways because they aren't HA- gear set classed and have little in the way of AOE skills, so its only obvious that 'Barbs' can walk through amassed mobs with more ease then a LA Sin, they were actually meant for tanking instances from day-1 > where as 'Sins' were born to be APS & DPS shredders (especially when you factor in their massive crit bonuses they get off of their Dex's (which even though large, still isn't as much as to what 'Archers' can crit-damage for) All classes have some points to them that happen to be either both strengths and/or weaknesses.....)) b:bye


(((But as for the OPs question ~ Going Mystic is a good choice for farming now-a-days {b:thanks} I'm actually leveling 2-of them right now on another server, just so I can see how they will compare to one another once I make '1-Sage and the other 1-Demon' for soloing and farming, and so far they've Grown into their own for a class quite well & I'll love to get them atleast to a gearing with G16 sets when they finally can make that mark to the 100th lv crowd, I actually like the class very much....)))

Joe - Morai

seitori wrote: »

Joe - Morai wrote: »

??? ^^ b:puzzled ^^ ???

Look I'm honestly happy for you that you've been capable of having mastered an APS Barb build (not many either have or can) but my 'Sage Sin' is about as average as it can be at 100th level ((though compared to other sins in my fac its weak & undergeared)) but even with a basic APS mix of 'TT99's, an R8 Chest, Awakened LAs & a mediocre +5 to my G16 daggers (which have neither GoF or Sac Strike) I still hit more times then not for over 20-25K (non-sparked) >,<' and can hit 'Triple Sparked' up to a '50 & even 60k easily' on mobs and quite a few of the bosses (which is still 'pretty much' ****, when compared to truly well geared Sins (the sins 'Crit Bonus' for it being a 'Dex based character' is the greatest telltale in that rating) > and I can still combine that with just the occasional 'lv-10 Relentless Courage' Genie skill (so as not to have it counter my sins sage spark, unlike windshield>b:sad) on my enhanced 'Infliciton genie' & I can easily 4.0 all of that damage /or/ I can just as easily use '3x spams' of 'Extreme Poisons' on my genie b4 it needs to refill itself (to amplify the damages and still do a DPS variation of damages) equal to the aps rating damages easily and I'm still not even the owner of an Int. Tome?? (cries!? For my poor pathetic sin b:cry)

"Needless to say though, I'm still not one who likes to to be a costant APS based 'Wind shredder' on heavier Bosses and I still prefer being a 'skill Spammer' with Sage CoTD active on squads, or just go basic interval spammer on bosses while solo, since I can build-up 3-spark chi much faster then I usually would just aps'ing away on things > and as any serious Sin farmer would tell you anyways 'aps'ing on bosses' is just for us to keep up the hitpoints while we trash them anyways, its not like we don't ever use stints of our sins skills in either 'single use, or combo, or all out spamming' on them throughout the fight aswell < To just simply take them all out while just going aps is boring & technically not very efficient ~ when considering what sins skills can actually be used to do..."


((But what I'm trying to say here is that sins only fall short of barbs in certain ways because they aren't HA- gear set classed and have little in the way of AOE skills, so its only obvious that 'Barbs' can walk through amassed mobs with more ease then a LA Sin, they were actually meant for tanking instances from day-1 > where as 'Sins' were born to be APS & DPS shredders (especially when you factor in their massive crit bonuses they get off of their Dex's (which even though large, still isn't as much as to what 'Archers' can crit-damage for) All classes have some points to them that happen to be either both strengths and/or weaknesses.....)) b:bye


(((But as for the OPs question ~ Going Mystic is a good choice for farming now-a-days {b:thanks} I'm actually leveling 2-of them right now on another server, just so I can see how they will compare to one another once I make '1-Sage and the other 1-Demon' for soloing and farming, and so far they've Grown into their own for a class quite well & I'll love to get them atleast to a gearing with G16 sets when they finally can make that mark to the 100th lv crowd, I actually like the class very much....)))

the quotes are getting longer and longer here xD

I think you missunderstood me there. the 28-32,5k I mentioned are not dmg. this is what is displayed in the chara menu while I'm sparked. Judging from the numbers you wrote...well on a normal mob within the range of 3 lvl of me I deal 22 to 44k dmg unsparked (upper number is crit) and about 42-84k sparked. Even a +12 G16 Dag sin from my Faction (regular aps gear) does not have that attack stat. Ofc they got more crit and all...but still, I can tank anythink while a sin cannot. (ya Wolf Emblem is nice too ofc, dmg-wise)

OFC a max Build 5.0 r9rr dags sin can out DD me without any problem. Not denying that. any r9rr dag sin with even just 4.0 can out dd me..while the difference then isn't as big as one would think. Still if you count in all points while soloing bosses ( dmg, time, comfort, safety, charm, aso) then aps barbs are far superior. Sins can reach way more dmg, but they can never reach the comfort and survivability.