Another update where we got pooed on...

Just lower the interval on bows by about 0.2 or so b:avoid

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Defense buff definitely needs to come in now...
We're by far the squishiest class. There's literally no other class that can be full +12 JoSD and be 1 shot except for maybe a psychic? But even then their defensive self buff takes a royal dump on ours.

It's about time we got a real evasion buff like focused mind or tidal protection, got some update to all skills in terms of amping damage to make up for lack of purge on most skills (because quite frankly it's just gotten to the point where all archers are good for is ranged purge and auto attack) or maybe just an update to the purge proc to let it proc on debuffing skills.

I hardly play this game anymore purely because nothing good is being done for the archer class - it's become very dull.

Dude plz....... u have 40 meter range + OP stealth ability with ability to pop detect apo in stalth + 1shot ability + purge ability + friggin Wings of Grace AND u want a tidal protection buff? did I throw in crit buff s of over 70% perma crit for both sage(60% + 20% from QS) and demon? (60% + 15% from STA & stuning arrow) and leap left leap right?

Ur crying that the Morai update didt do anything for u? before morai update all u could do was WoG and pray u don't get immobilized after it runs out, now u have option to leap away from dmg (which increase ur own dmg in most cases) or stealth and feel OP then leap away. oh and u also got a sealing skill.....bet u forgot that 1.....

Compare sins for example with last update.....what did we get?......peek in ur bag for pvp? drop me some DQ items? share the stealth for 5 measly seconds which takes about 2 seconds to cast? or the DoT which doesn't do too much dmg?

Archers under any situation is easily the most balanced class and can be easily seen as OP....granted that Seekers are in the same boat of balanced and almost OP, thank got the don't have 40 meter range OR PURGE AWAY ALL BUFFS

b:byeb:byeb:bye

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

If anything, you should be killing robes even faster than when you had +10 lunar.

Killing robes faster when they have 25k pdef self-buffed in addition to purify spell? Yeah right. You're also forgetting that the new spirit of defense pots makes it easier than ever to recover from purge. One click and you've got full buffs again. Sure it puts apoth on CD but with purify spell casters aren't nearly as reliant on apoth for survival as they used to be.

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

You think archer stealth is "OP". What part of it, may I ask? You must mean that wonder speed nerf that goes along with it, yes it's wonderful. Walking at half the speed of snail makes every class fantastic. It's like walking when you have 1 FPS and 2000 ping. Sure you can stealth then leap, nothing like using all your skills at once so everything is in cooldown. b:infuriated


And since everyone can't seem to get this I will have to say it again:

PURGE IS NOT AN ARCHER SKILL

yet how many archers keep acting like its the worse proc out there? EACH proc has it's weaknesses, and it's strength. Though it is true just because something has it weaknesses/strengths it doesn't mean it isn't in some major need of change. still once it procs... it is bad news for the person on the wrong end of it.

We are not talking about weapons and gear, we are talking about skills. So stop dragging purge into the argument. Not every single archer has a purge bow. Also when it comes to it, in group PvP you can give me any class that is rrr9 +12 JOSD/Deity and my cat could walk across the keyboard and kill 10 people. When you have gear that powerful it is total overkill.

EDIT:That statement is so very wrong... its a lot harder to kill 10 ppl than just button smashing. Even for casters/archers who have the SUPERIOR range + damage.... also thats not even mentioning how hard it would be to get a melee to 10 somewhat competent people, and actually kill them even with that type of gear.

What happened is all the people that cash shopped their gear quickly (without learning how to play their class) got so used to being able to 1 hit everyone, but now that more and more people have the same gear as them they are finding that having the gear alone no longer cuts it. So then they start talking about how some class are more OP then others. But when you look at the actual skills available to said class, it's not true at all.

But let's actually look at archer gear, light armor is the worst armor in the game. It has middle road physical and elemental defense, and we have NO self buffs of any kind to make up for the inadequacies of our gear (just an evasion/speed buff). Our range that everyone is QQing about is the only thing we have to make up for our **** gear. An archer plays the role of a sniper, we have to kill you before you reach us, because if you get to us, we are dead.


When you look at archer skills (just the skills, over the top gear has nothing to do with it) compared to what other classes have received in past updates, archer skills are sub par.

A melee often has to deal with the gank, and they can't kill anywhere near as easily as archers. Ergo Think of what subpar geared melees have to go through to even land an attack... and even... oh wait I said this already.... meh **** it..... I'm done here.

Nothing you, or any of the other archers have said has changed my stance/mind about it, and the same goes for me/others on my side of the fence so to speak. Until you or another archer can convince me they TRULY need more defensive options and not have an advantage that no melee has, my mind will stay the same.

At this point I think it's best we follow this wise statement, Lets just agree to disagree.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm not downplaying the usefulness of range. I've played multiple games and not always with a ranged class, so I know that getting a few extra skills off while someone is getting to you is innately useful. The problem, then, happens when it becomes a battle of ranged DDs, or a problem of melees picking which ranged DD to hit. Archers are the only physical based ranged DD. Because of the way the armors work in this game, all the ranged classes have resistance against each other EXCEPT ARCHERS. This means when ranged classes are throwing skills at each other, archers already have a disadvantage. And then, when you as a melee pick targets, would you rather hit a ranged class with lots of CCs and/or the ability to proc something that purifies them and makes them immune to CCs? Or would you hit the target that has lower defenses, has the potential to purge you if ignored, has really crappy CCs, and does half damage at melee range? I have good faith in your decision making abilities, so I will assume you picked the latter.

A good BM will always be useful and invaluable, but I don't think BMs as a whole are overpowered in any way.

I can't disagree with anything you said. EXCEPT... maybe that seekers are physical ranged DD as well, only they have more haxed armor/often hit harder than most archers.

Arguably just another reason/example why I (<-- keyword) feel archers do NOT need a defensive boost... but.... yea I can see why some might use that as an example as why they need a boost. (Which quite francly would be a bad example for that side of the argument, but yea that could easily just be my nab opinion. :P

With how archer class work, only one of the suggestions, which wasnt completely **** was the 3rd and even that would be situational at best. Actually scratch that, the trade-off would be worth it on it so rarely archer would be using it barely ever. Only situation for those is getting ganked if they are insta cast.

Due missing the overhaul on skill damage, archers have to rely on auto-attacks to kill people. Difference in dps is so large you will never see archer skill spam anything but metal skills for magic damage. Reducing your own attack speed drastically with said fact drastically reduces archers killing potential. If you dont absolutely need said defenses to live getting ganked, skill becomes completely useless. With long CD, short duration, longer debuff than buff, even at insta cast the skill had few and rare uses.

Ultimately in all suggestion the trade-off you give is far more valuable than the gain. Making said skills marginal skills as they are quite situational, useful only on very specific set of factors.

Archers want and require decent defensive buff, being the only class that lacks one. At purge every other class can cast something to regain some defenses, archers really cant, crappy evasion buff doesnt count. Suppose sins cant but they got 2 self buffs that are far more powerful than anybody is really asking for.

*shrug*

Greedy buggers gonna get whats coming to them.

Have fun with your pity party.

The reason Skill Mode is sad is because there is already a skill just like it that is better. It's called Deep Chill. Or maybe it's because no one wants a dirty cleric to tell them what they should get. -.^

Here's what a balance update should look like:

Attack Animation:
Reduce front swing animation so an archer can shoot and run easier.

Take Aim:
Make a fully charged Take Aim never miss.

Vicious/Serrated:
Reduce cooldown by 7s so you can stack bleeds if given the chance, since PW apparently wants archers to be the DoT class.

Stormrage:
4.4m - 8m AOE based on level progression.

Aim Low:
100% chance to Paralyze up from 90%, it's **** to have the chance to both miss and not work when it costs a spark.

Whisper Shot:
Increase cast range to ranged rather than 18m.

Knockback Arrow:
Interrupt players on hit

Deadly Shot:
Add 100% weapon damage

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

The reason Skill Mode is sad is because there is already a skill just like it that is better. It's called Deep Chill. Or maybe it's because no one wants a dirty cleric to tell them what they should get. -.^

Here's what a balance update should look like:

Attack Animation:
Reduce front swing animation so an archer can shoot and run easier.

Take Aim:
Make a fully charged Take Aim never miss.

Vicious/Serrated:
Reduce cooldown by 7s so you can stack bleeds if given the chance, since PW apparently wants archers to be the DoT class.

Stormrage:
4.4m - 8m AOE based on level progression.

Aim Low:
100% chance to Paralyze up from 90%, it's **** to have the chance to both miss and not work when it costs a spark.

Whisper Shot:
Increase cast range to ranged rather than 18m.

Knockback Arrow:
Interrupt players on hit

Deadly Shot:
Add 100% weapon damage

This.

I don't feel archers really need a defense buff, as long as they get more options on offense. Buff up the skills no one uses to a point where there are actual choices to be made.

I'd like to see Arrow Inferno made usable. Channel down to 1 sec (from 3.1), duration up to 60 seconds (from 30). It's an interesting skill but doesn't last long enough to warrant giving up 4 seconds and a spark to launch it.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

All these changes sound reasonable except for Aim Low. EVERY class has to deal with chances. Badge of courage for genie, Thicket for mystics...even wizard's 2 spark 5-second channel stun skill can fail.

Think of it as you were intending to aim low, but suddenly had a rare brain **** and aimed high instead.

And MS is an AoE. 95% stun plus high damage, plus AoE, plus the fact that, as magic, it never misses? Yeah a 5% chance of the stun failing seems fair. Thicket has the same perks of being magic, high damage, and it does both the seal and freeze.

And it's a bit silly you're comparing 2spark skills to a 1spark one but even with that into account.... Aim Low won't ever activate a weapon proc from an archer, can fail, can miss, costs a spark, and does not deal significant damage. You'll find that the skills with a chance to fail their procs even at max level are all skills that either have a low chi cost, deal high damage, have the "proc" as a bonus to the skill at level 11 (IE: Sage DB), are AoEs, or qualify for more than one of the above.

So yes, it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a single target 1 spark skill that deals no significant damage to not have the only thing you'd ever actually use it for (because if you don't feel you need the freeze as an archer you will not be using aim low) actually work all the time instead of have a chance to fail on top of the chance it already has to miss. Heck, even the AoE stun of Mountain Seize has a lower chance to fail than Aim Low's freeze... and that's before considering that Aim Low can miss!






The big issue archers have is that their skills are kinda sorta horribad overall for various reasons and so they're forced to rely primarily on auto-attack. If they had skills worth using, their defense wouldn't be something that they worried about being as lackluster as it currently is because they'd at least have plenty of offensive options to rely on instead of hoping the RNG was on their side for any particular engagement with equal gears and skill. Seeing how recent updates have been greatly buffing the offensive abilities of other classes and... adjusting archer DoTs from being a waste of time to being a waste of time, is it really any wonder why archers aren't exactly happy about this?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

stuff lots of stuff

you could just go bow master, or roll an archer.

SweetieBot, analyze this thread! Thank you.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

SweetieBot, analyze this thread! Thank you.

SweetieBot has finished reading the thread: Another update where we got pooed on...!

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Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Please note even though I am bringing up these point's it doesn't mean I disagree with the skill changes Quil, came up with; however, for the record I agree with the point burnout brought up.

Your entire response to my Aim Low is rendered moot by the fact you're talking about physically missing, something I already pointed out before the fact that on top of that chance to miss, it also has a chance to fail. Everything else you said also applies to the skill. aside from the distance gap. And, while an advantage, it's fairly easy to close for most melees in an equal gear situation. Plus then I can argue about how archers would either deal half damage to you at this point, have to attempt to kite which gives your stuff time to go off cooldown since they won't be attacking, or have to pray to the RNG gods for luck. So... what exactly was your point with that?

The only place where you really have a point was saying that you felt comparing a 2spark skill to a 1spark skill was fair and... it isn't. 2spark skills should, with should being the keyword, essentially always have something that makes them better in the situations you'd want to use them than 1-spark skills be it damage, a debuff, AoE, CC utility, or something of the sort. So no, trying to compare 2spark skills to a 1spark skill as he was doing and saying that it's justification for the 1spark skill is not fair to either side of the discussion.


As for you finding it unreasonable... roar of the pride is cheap on chi, an AoE, and has a low chance of failing (or will never fail at all of demon) outside of the stupidly obvious cases of things such as anti-stuns and tidal. And, while I shouldn't have to point that out the scenarios for failing, with what you've shown as an argument to my post, I kind of have no choice to ensure you can't try to use that. On top of that, it cannot actually miss the target, even if it does fail. Aoelian blaade, on the other hand, can miss the target and can also fail. However it also costs no chi, deals more damage than Aim Low, has a shorter cooldown, and does not interfere with weapon procs. Is this fair? Yes, because it has no real cost unless you want to argue about MP. If it were to become a 100% stun, then it would obviously warrant a chi cost and potentially increased cooldown.

Now let's take that further and look at the assassin's Aim Low. Does it cost chi? Nope, in fact it gives chi! Does it deal damage? It's actually fairly decent damage for them, though far from the greatest. It also lasts longer than Aim Low and doesn't interfere with weapon procs! Oh and to top it off, it's almost universally considered just as ridiculous a skill as the fact that shadow escape, a survival skill that would cost chi on any other class, instead grants a full spark.

Let's go one further back to BMs and look at Drake Bash. Costs a spark, single target, good damage (especially compared to aim low), doesn't interfere with weapon procs, and won't fail when it hits. According to your own post, this skill is unfair and should have a chance to fail even if you land the skill. Find me saying that as unreasonable? You shouldn't; it's exactly what the skill change for Aim Low Q posted would be. Only yours deals more damage and won't interfere with your weapon procs even if the change was actually performed.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Again with someone who seems to be completely ignoring what any melee has to go through.

Note I did not reference melees in any way in my post making bringing this up a pointless tangent at best. Was what I was pointing out something in regards to melee, you'd potentially have a reason for this. However it had absolutely nothing to do with melees aside from showcasing a similarity with skills across all classes. You're the one who decided to bring up melee specifically, by which you really just mean "lower-geared BMs" in this case, even though it had no real relevance.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There isn't really any melee skills that has others just really shaking in their boots so to speak. Oh and they also have to get up near others to even begin trying to attack people with their skills. (Sure bm, sins, and barbs have a FEW (<-- KEYWORD!) ranged skills, but nothing that makes any of them even slightly worthwhile to use in mass pvp.)

Right... because lower geared players in mass PvP totally aren't terrified of a barb running towards small groups and 1-shotting them with arma. Or a BM stunning a clustered group of players and then HFing them as an allied caster drops a nuke. Or a Sin popping up out of stealth with a 2sparked subsea rift and then vanishing back to stealth as any survivors get cleaned up by whoever's around to take advantage of the debuff. Don't make me laugh when you know full well that what you're saying is far from the truth. Or are you going to tell me that people in TW don't care about BMs and are quite happy to stay together in tightly packed groups because nobody's going to run into them and land powerful debuffs that cripple them immensely.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You don't see many melees complaining about the lack of power, or defensive abilities of their class, (one class has practically NONE viable offensive skill, nor defensive... and yet it is so ridiculous hard to show how much truth there is behind it, yes many of you know which class I am talking about... if you want to discuss that with me may I suggest you bring it up over here? So we can avoid that talk here in this thread.... so not looking forward to some of the inevitable discussions this in ALL likelihood will bring up, but meh better there, than here.) maybe this is because they aren't anywhere near as passionate about it as the ones who are, that or they didn't see the class in the same light as the one who is complaining (which happens often, and as is with any class... no class is immune to its fair share of complainers.)

Endgame melees have PLENTY of power and defense, so no they aren't going to complain about their own lack of it. Granted they will be annoyed at stuff like Purify Spell, but that's another topic entirely. Pre-endgame melees are smart enough to play the role of support in mass PvP but can still generally hold their own in 1v1s unless their opponent has a major gear advantage or is more skilled.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is one more possibility. Remember when the aps craze was in full 'craze' mode, casters, and other melees alike went to the two main classes for apsing, and that is bm's and sins, in other words they got with the times, they adapted to the times to 'survive'/continue to play this game and enjoy it to an extent. (Sure it wasn't fair what happened to casters during that time... but in this day and age, the roles have become quite the opposite, where melees are shunned by just about everyone who is actually still playing) This game is full of people who adapt with the times and go with the class they feel is the most effective money maker/the one they feel the most relaxed on, and while it's true casters/arches aren't earning more than meleers, it undoubtedly feels like the ones who have that natural range advantage... are having a lot more fun when they're actually able to be a nuisance to everyone. Whereas melees are often lucky to be able to land even a SINGLE hit, and even when they do it tends to be such a ridiculously low amount, it just leaves another bad taster in the meleers mouth.

^ That is so what I feel has happened, those who are left/has been here through all the changes are the ones who have adapted to the times, and more or less accepted how the game has turned out for their previous 'favorite' class, and then there are people like me who has adapted, but refuses to accept that their previous favorite class is no longer a decent factor in pretty much anywhere these days. The purify proc really ruined game play for many meleers/bms. Even if it has it's weaknesses.

And with fully endgame gear, most of this is nullified. Pre-endgame vs Pre-endgame, again it's mostly nullified. Pre-endgame vs endgame... well what are you expecting? Shall I go talk about how back when Lunar was endgame archers, the so-called "robe killers" would deal triple digit damage to fully buffed arcanes and, in turn, had to make sure all their refines were top notch so they'd be able to survive long enough to... run away? You're basically talking about BMs pre-endgame so I'll point out how archers got shafted before too and how even the top archers of those times would agree that you don't play archer to faceroll like you could with other classes and instead played it because you needed VASTLY more skill than your opponents to be able to do well as even the smallest of mistakes would kill you on an archer while other classes could afford to make those mistakes.










And let me point something out you don't seem to realize while you're making these posts about melees this and melees that. I play every class. All ten of them. I play them well and love each of them for their own things. I do not lie trying to say class X or Y is my main because I really like playing them all. I was one of the sins who was absolutely annoyed with how stupidly broken APS was back when it ruled both PvE and PvP. I was one of the venos who was not a fan of Nix bleed + kite when we were at the point in time where that was a valid tactic against 99% of players. I'm a caster who feels that being able to tank more than melees in several situations due to the nature of buffs in general and purify spell aiding me more when I have more opponents to face is a rather stupid thing.

So no, I'm not blissfully unaware of what melees of any sort have to go through. I'm not picking favorites or asking for archers to be super buffed because I like them. What I am doing is pointing out the facts and something that literally every skilled and experienced archer already knows. With that being said, I do not plan to respond to any more of the pointless "range vs melee" you keep trying to interject into everything here as that's not the point of this. If you'd like to go back and make actual points about the skill itself in comparison to other skills and debate that, on the other hand, I'll be happy to respond to that and share my thoughts and opinions on the matter.





EDIT: To be clear on the above just in case, yes I agree range is an advantage, moreso in mass PK than normal. However it's far from insurmountable. So while there are things that can make range vs melee an annoying battle 1v1, it's still fairly decent depending on the classes involved. In mass PvP, however, both range and gear play large factors in what you can and cannot accomplish and both need to be considered. Yes, melees have a harder time killing in that sort of environment, but in most MMOs they tend to take on a more supportive role there anyways and, instead of aiming to kill directly, try to support their team more and pick off the occasional straggler they come across.

OPKossy wrote: »

Your entire response to my Aim Low is rendered moot by the fact you're talking about physically missing, something I already pointed out before the fact that on top of that chance to miss, it also has a chance to fail. Everything else you said also applies to the skill. aside from the distance gap. And, while an advantage, it's fairly easy to close for most melees in an equal gear situation. Plus then I can argue about how archers would either deal half damage to you at this point, have to attempt to kite which gives your stuff time to go off cooldown since they won't be attacking, or have to pray to the RNG gods for luck. So... what exactly was your point with that?

Yes you are right those in better gear have a far easier time closing those gaps, but before it, there is quite a few who struggle to no end to do so. I also agree that the fact that archers deal half damage up close really does rather suck, but still they do have options to remove them self from a sticky situation, after all that trouble the melee went through to even get near them.

Not to mention the fact that even if a melee is on equal gear footing with a caster/archer that he is after, the melee will be far more likely to be taking hits from multiple people... so yea... melees don't have it that easy pre end game. (yes some melee classes fair a lot better than others. Still ignoring it, and asking for a boost in damage or defense seems quite unfair to meleers who are already struggling before end game gear, and are still at a bit of a disadvantage even when in equal gears... more so in mass pvp though.)

I think it's quite unfair to ignore lower geared people like they have no say/clue what goes on in end game pvp... there are some advantages that stick through all the way until the end. Though aye they DO become less noticeable the better gear you get that opposes that innate ability.

The only place where you really have a point was saying that you felt comparing a 2spark skill to a 1spark skill was fair and... it isn't. 2spark skills should, with should being the keyword, essentially always have something that makes them better in the situations you'd want to use them than 1-spark skills be it damage, a debuff, AoE, CC utility, or something of the sort. So no, trying to compare 2spark skills to a 1spark skill as he was doing and saying that it's justification for the 1spark skill is not fair to either side of the discussion.


As for you finding it unreasonable... roar of the pride is cheap on chi, an AoE, and has a low chance of failing (or will never fail at all of demon) outside of the stupidly obvious cases of things such as anti-stuns and tidal. And, while I shouldn't have to point that out the scenarios for failing, with what you've shown as an argument to my post, I kind of have no choice to ensure you can't try to use that. On top of that, it cannot actually miss the target, even if it does fail. Aoelian blaade, on the other hand, can miss the target and can also fail. However it also costs no chi, deals more damage than Aim Low, has a shorter cooldown, and does not interfere with weapon procs. Is this fair? Yes, because it has no real cost unless you want to argue about MP. If it were to become a 100% stun, then it would obviously warrant a chi cost and potentially increased cooldown.

I am fully aware of that fact, (hell if you hadn't pointed it out yourself, I would have...) of course stuns/"100%" cc skills will NOT go through if prevented by an anti stun, I merely brought up that point to show how when a melee has to close gaps, they get near, expend that chi, only to have it miss/wiped cleaned... it isn't fun, nor do I think it's fair to act like archers have the only skills that are worthy/in need of change. Not to mention pre-endgame they DO struggle to close those gaps, and even when they do, procs/skills, a casters/archers ability to react quite often before a melee even has time to stun them. (Sure they can't do it all the time, but most of the time they can, and there is quite a significant amount of people who can, (EDIT) either wipe the status effects clean ridiculously easy, or just leaping/running out of what get's melees near them a bit easier. Though I am not saying I want this to change. That is how it should be... - the wiping status effect clean ridiculously easy.)


Now let's take that further and look at the assassin's Aim Low. Does it cost chi? Nope, in fact it gives chi! Does it deal damage? It's actually fairly decent damage for them, though far from the greatest. It also lasts longer than Aim Low and doesn't interfere with weapon procs! Oh and to top it off, it's almost universally considered just as ridiculous a skill as the fact that shadow escape, a survival skill that would cost chi on any other class, instead grants a full spark.

What aim low of assassian's are you looking at? Do you perhaps mean the knife throw? Also at the risk of being a broken record that no one likes to listen too... they still have to close the distances, and if they're badly geared there is almost NO way they'll be getting near others long enough to make use of it... archers on the other hand would make good use of aim low.

Let's go one further back to BMs and look at Drake Bash. Costs a spark, single target, good damage (especially compared to aim low), doesn't interfere with weapon procs, and won't fail when it hits. According to your own post, this skill is unfair and should have a chance to fail even if you land the skill. Find me saying that as unreasonable? You shouldn't; it's exactly what the skill change for Aim Low Q posted would be. Only yours deals more damage and won't interfere with your weapon procs even if the change was actually performed.
I think you misunderstood my point there, I meant simply that if a 1 spark skill doesn't miss, than neither should a skill that costs more chi to use, especially when that chi could have played a vital role else where. (I.E stuns on another person that wasn't close enough to be effected by hf. <-- using hf/stuns as an example as I am aware that other classes deal with this very same issue.)

Note I did not reference melees in any way in my post making bringing this up a pointless tangent at best. Was what I was pointing out something in regards to melee, you'd potentially have a reason for this. However it had absolutely nothing to do with melees aside from showcasing a similarity with skills across all classes. You're the one who decided to bring up melee specifically, by which you really just mean "lower-geared BMs" in this case, even though it had no real relevance.


Again the reason I keep bringing up that point, is to try and get you/others asking for a boost to look at it from a different perspective. I.E: If you boost the damage or defensive abilities of a casters/ranged class it will EFFECT melees even more.. even the ones in end game gear.... as... if they were taking hits from 3 or more people that had insane defenses + ridiculously hard damage that can be hard to tank/take until they get them all down.

Ergo yea... I don't particularly like the idea of archers, or casters getting more damage added to their skills, nor defense. EDIT: (but I am fairly sure that they will be getting damage boosts whether I like that fact or not... I can deal with that side... but no ty on the defenses)

Right... because lower geared players in mass PvP totally aren't terrified of a barb running towards small groups and 1-shotting them with arma. Or a BM stunning a clustered group of players and then HFing them as an allied caster drops a nuke. Or a Sin popping up out of stealth with a 2sparked subsea rift and then vanishing back to stealth as any survivors get cleaned up by whoever's around to take advantage of the debuff. Don't make me laugh when you know full well that what you're saying is far from the truth. Or are you going to tell me that people in TW don't care about BMs and are quite happy to stay together in tightly packed groups because nobody's going to run into them and land powerful debuffs that cripple them immensely.

I'll give you that one to an extent, but really what is there to be terrified about? If the melee isn't that well geared, or even if it, if there is a few casters/archers around... the melee could be eating dirt in no time at all, not to mention the fact that all it would take to make a melee a pretty much non threat, is coordinate sleeps, seals etc on them and keep your distance to make sure he or she isn't able to do any of that. Casters, nor archers are dumb enough to just sit there as a leeroyer comes barreling in. As I said having to close that gap while in pre end game gear is FAR from easy especially when they have to deal with multiple attacks. (Though, yes it is true that bms when left alone is a bit of a scary prospect for opposing people... still doesn't change the fact that if they're not endgame, it wont take much at all to mop the floor with that bm. Also yes again better gear helps with that, still pre end game... just no... too easy to kill them.)


Endgame melees have PLENTY of power and defense, so no they aren't going to complain about their own lack of it. Granted they will be annoyed at stuff like Purify Spell, but that's another topic entirely. Pre-endgame melees are smart enough to play the role of support in mass PvP but can still generally hold their own in 1v1s unless their opponent has a major gear advantage or is more skilled.

Although there isn't many that post on the forums, there has been a few who (claim) to be endgame who do complain about lack of defense/power... hell I know of a few bms on my server who ARE endgame, and mention some of the things I have brought up. (Don't ask me to get them to post here, but believe me they do complain about their lack of power/defensive ability. (though the latter is mainly bms) Also I too play 1 of every class, and none are anywhere near as endgame as I would like, but I still see (its as clear as day is to me) how much bms struggle to even support/get near others in that pre end game gear.

EDIT: Perhaps I wouldn't be struggling so much to accept that a bm/melees role is supporting, if I actually felt like the other meleers had to do that as well... from the things I see barbs, and even sins can take a more front line approach and get in there to play better support than a bm can, even when they are in poorish gear.

And with fully endgame gear, most of this is nullified. Pre-endgame vs Pre-endgame, again it's mostly nullified. Pre-endgame vs endgame... well what are you expecting? Shall I go talk about how back when Lunar was endgame archers, the so-called "robe killers" would deal triple digit damage to fully buffed arcanes and, in turn, had to make sure all their refines were top notch so they'd be able to survive long enough to... run away? You're basically talking about BMs pre-endgame so I'll point out how archers got shafted before too and how even the top archers of those times would agree that you don't play archer to faceroll like you could with other classes and instead played it because you needed VASTLY more skill than your opponents to be able to do well as even the smallest of mistakes would kill you on an archer while other classes could afford to make those mistakes.

Agreed end game gear most of my complaints are nullified. Aye I fully expect to get owned, however when I close the gaps, and still can't kill/support (yes assume I mean actually stunning, and them breaking out of it with an extraordinary amount of ease) something is seriously wrong.








And let me point something out you don't seem to realize while you're making these posts about melees this and melees that. I play every class. All ten of them. I play them well and love each of them for their own things. I do not lie trying to say class X or Y is my main because I really like playing them all. I was one of the sins who was absolutely annoyed with how stupidly broken APS was back when it ruled both PvE and PvP. I was one of the venos who was not a fan of Nix bleed + kite when we were at the point in time where that was a valid tactic against 99% of players. I'm a caster who feels that being able to tank more than melees in several situations due to the nature of buffs in general and purify spell aiding me more when I have more opponents to face is a rather stupid thing.

I am sorry I said it like that kossy, that was quite out of line on my part, I made a stupid assumption based off of what I read/interpreted/didn't see mentioned in your post. Again I do apologize. Shame on me.

Also I understand this may not hold much water/mean much to anyone, but in pve I do play each of my characters quite well, hell even in pvp... EVEN on my bm I do decently enough to get the same amount of points I do on any of my chars, still I see how much rougher it is for a bm compared to ANY other class.

So no, I'm not blissfully unaware of what melees of any sort have to go through. I'm not picking favorites or asking for archers to be super buffed because I like them. What I am doing is pointing out the facts and something that literally every skilled and experienced archer already knows. With that being said, I do not plan to respond to any more of the pointless "range vs melee" you keep trying to interject into everything here as that's not the point of this. If you'd like to go back and make actual points about the skill itself in comparison to other skills and debate that, on the other hand, I'll be happy to respond to that and share my thoughts and opinions on the matter.

Boy reading that last sentence made me feel 2 inches tall. /o\

Still the reason why I keep bringing it up is due to the fact that it can be hard for melee's to close those gaps, especially in gear that isn't truly endgame when there can easily be more than 1 person to chase down, and it isn't easy at all to take down casters/archers. (Again though archers are far and away the far easier one to take down.)


EDIT: I so AGREE! With your edit that isn't in this post OPKossy. :$

EDIT: Yea now that I think about it more, I think that is my issue. /o\ (The fact that other meleers seem to be far better at being able to actually support... (A barb and its extraordinary ability to absorb an insane amount of damage, and sins ability to be a big enough nuisance that people tend to pay attention when they're there/they can do things to make it harder for them to be taking down/actually kill if left alone for a bit.) (EDIT) Though it is somewhat true for a bm, it is FAR easier for a barb, or sin to stay in the frey, and ignore gear/being ganked better than a bm.... albeit it once those skills run out/are on cooldown life undoubtedly becomes harder on the sin.

SweetieBot, Please Analyze Slivaf - Dreamweaver

(Read the 10th post on the 24th page if you have't seen it plox)