Another update where we got pooed on...

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archers wanting way more defense to be as good in 1vs1 as they are in group pvp.

Come on guys... stop being so greedy. You cannot get the best of both worlds. Archers have many advantages already, so stop pretending they don't. This is why non-archers come to the the archer forums: to correct the misinformation archers spread about their own class.

Archer offensive strengths:

-magical and physical damage
-highest range in game
-highest ranged dps in game
-highest aps in a r9rr build (before you say 'assassin', remember they'll be using chill of the deep...)
-difficult to spot attacks (auto attacks are nearly invisible when compared to the flashy animations you see around your character when other classes attack)
-low cooldown, long-duration anti-stuns
-ability to regain your entire chi bar instantly
-leaps that don't cost chi
-stealth
-stuns
-immobilize
-seal
-4 aoe attacks, soon to be 5
-variety of strong debuffs (25% hf, 16-20% max hp debuff, 50% metal debuff, 50% magic/physical debuff if sage, slow debuff up to 80%)
-PURGE on your highest damage weapons

The points I listed combine to make archers one of, if not THE deadliest class in any group pvp situation. I can guarantee you that most classes don't have a list this long for offensive strengths. Yes, stealth can be used offensively; when I'm fighting archers they often use stealth to sneak in a triple spark whose animation I can't see, or to put a blood vow on me that I can't avoid, which is followed by stun. Leaps are offensive too, since it puts you back to your full damage if you were in melee range of enemy.

WANT DEFENSE? GIVE UP SOME OFFENSE. OR REROLL a less offensive class that has more defense but not nearly as much offensive firepower. But for goodness sakes, all of this negativity... jeez... so tacky. Saying 'I think we should get a bit of a defensive upgrade', sure. I'll accept that such a thing wouldn't be OP, though I'd argue it isn't particularly necessary. Saying 'archers are SO WEAK POOR ME' I will not accept. Guess what? The other classes don't accept it either. We have all been killed by archers WAY TOO FRICKEN OFTEN to accept that sorta bullcrap.

really good argumentation. i agree with this

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Kill on your BM

BM is not a DD, it's not a class made for going for the kill. At all. /discussion

I don't like the DD role. Crowd Control or tank, please.

As far as the rest of the arguments, I use numbers. You'll need a better argument than "other calsses be OP, yo" because by that logic, nobody would be an archer at all.

So in a 1v1 your aim is to not kill? I know what the role of a BM is in group PK thanks - that was pretty much my point. Don't really know what you mean by "i use numbers".

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Uh... really... you would rather have the anti stun that costs a whole spark, with a 60 second cooldown, and 15 seconds of activation time? <--- That is all will of Bodhisattva does... save the instant channel. (Yes there is the speed boost but still to me your WOG is far superior)

The damage reduction, very slight speed increase, with a 30 second cooldown, 15 seconds of activation, same spark costs.. to me that outweighs the fact that it has a longer channel/cast time or at least it certainly does imho, bhavy.

That is so all I am commenting on.

I find alacrity more useful than WOG when it comes to kiting/avoiding stuns etc. 1 second doesn't sound like a long time but it's long enough to get stunned or interrupted before it's done channeling, so yeah. Please remember while we're running and kiting that amazing offense that everyone seems to think archers have is completely useless.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archers wanting way more defense to be as good in 1vs1 as they are in group pvp.

Come on guys... stop being so greedy. You cannot get the best of both worlds. Archers have many advantages already, so stop pretending they don't. This is why non-archers come to the the archer forums: to correct the misinformation archers spread about their own class.

Archer offensive strengths:

-magical and physical damage
like a cleric? like a seeker? like a mystic? like a sin? Like a BARB even? not really much of a point here. Let's not forget that if you hit hard enough it doesnt matter what type of damage you're dealing if you can 1 shot people with it anyway.

-highest range in game

again - why do people continue to make out like this is massive advantage?If you know so much about archers you'll know that the few metres advantage a sage has over demon is pretty much laughed at. The range difference is comparable between arcanes and demon archers (which most archers are). Oh and take it from me - the sage range advantage really isnt all that either because any archer who's attacking an arcane usually stands closer than max range in case the arcane decides to kite.

-highest ranged dps in game

I'll say sin aps build here ready for the "point" you attempt to make below.

-highest aps in a r9rr build (before you say 'assassin', remember they'll be using chill of the deep...)

So? High dps is not that much of an advantage either. You said it yourself. Most sins will go with DPH CoTD full R9R2 build and ditched the aps build for PK and yet carry around an APS set for PVE because the DPS is much higher with the APS set.Same with why there is no end game pure channeling build arcanes anymore. It's too squishy.That's why no archers wear the aps set either. Please - stop making non-points seem like they're huge significant advantages that support your argument.

-difficult to spot attacks (auto attacks are nearly invisible when compared to the flashy animations you see around your character when other classes attack)

Fair point well made - Grats thats 1. But let's not forget, for some classes it doesn't really matter when their channeling on skills is so fast like sins

-low cooldown, long-duration anti-stuns

Compared to...? I mean there's 5 classes with a 0 second cool down insta cast antistun , granted it's a proc , but it's a high proc with a chiless purify too. Sin's get tidal protection which is practically the same thing with an even higher proc, yes it has a cool down but then theres nothing stopping them using stealth right after it's gone. 12 seconds and 8 seconds is not that much longer to what some other classes get.

-ability to regain your entire chi bar instantly

missing the point about the 5 minute cool down? So you're happy to say that our anti stuns have low cool downs but when it comes to something with a massive cool down it's conveniently ignored like it's not a factor.

-leaps that don't cost chi
The only good update skill we've had in the last few years. Before you say whisper shot - check the range and duration and compare that to the chi cost.

-stealth
nothing that a stealth pot can't solve, it's not like we can double spark in stealth and pop out wherever we want to. Do you mean to tell me that you stick around and fap for a while when an archer stealths on you?

-stuns
-immobilize
-seal
this is somehow an advantage we have that no other class has? Do you know how long our seal lasts and how much it costs? Compared to psy's, mystics, clerics?


-4 aoe attacks, soon to be 5
wrong.

-variety of strong debuffs (25% hf, 16-20% max hp debuff, 50% metal debuff, 50% magic/physical debuff if sage, slow debuff up to 80%)
Not a debuffing class, rarely ever that much time to make full use or stack them like other classes can.

-PURGE on your highest damage weapons

Which requires more than 1 hit to even matter assuming the target is even buffed with buffs that can be purged? Lowest proc rate on any "highest damage weapon"?

I mean - I don't really know what your main issue is with any of the points that have been made here. You just seem to go off and talk about your own points about why archers are OP and ignore everything that actually seems to be said here without taking into consideration what other classes get or are getting. Considering you're not an archer main and you're on the archer forums i would have thought this is exactly the sort of thing you should be taking into consideration. Perhaps it's because you're a cleric and the only self buff you have that other classes don't get is one that can actually be purged which is why you think archers are OP. You're a main target for most archers in group Pvp anyway being a cleric, you're obviously well geared so you'll take priority when an enemy end game archer looks for a target.

If we look at the original classes, archers and wizards probably go hand in hand in terms of their role. One primarily targets HA the other AA. Just take a look how far the wizard has come in comparison, what skills they've gotten from the morai updates.

No archer is asking to be made into a broken class, and we're certainly not at the moment. We'd just like a little more balance where the other classes seem to have it. Yes - despite everything i said in red above - we do have good offense, no one's asking for a damage amp although I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of "fire power" from when there are other classes with the ability to 1 shot full JoSD +12 barbs. I think we just want more options, and possibly a defensive buff (not an anti stun or skill) worth casting which every single other class has. It's really not difficult to understand, unless you're purposely narrowing your mind.

We've all proced purify proc too for us to put up with that buIIshiit, and it's only been out a year (less than archers). And yet here we are learning to deal with it.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

base + 750% weapon damage + 15k is roughly 300% base damage for an endgame sin. 300% x 4 = 1200% base damage on a zerk crit.

That's about the same damage that an endgame archer would do if they had a skill that allowed them to do 8x their base damage (4x before crit), and we all know that if archers got a skill anywhere near that powerful everyone would be crying bloody murder.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=20001401&postcount=457

Where I did math based on my weapon (N3+12), higher weapon and increase get bigger in relative sense too.

Meaning ~68% more damage if sin HHs you from stealth with double spark (Pretty usual stuff on known OP targets)

~84% more damage if sin only HHs from stealth.

Those are relative increases, double sparked will still deal far more damage but due double sparks weapon damage multiplier increase, it gains relatively less damage from the expansion. Not to mention sin is the class with most attack levels after psys, heck, I read they get another 5 attack levels on Chill in the expansion.

As for compared to normal hits? I dont think I did math regarding that, easy just to pull numbers for 12,154 base damage and 40,400 damage w/o spark.

40,400 / 12,154 * 100% = 332,4%

332% * 2,4(crit) * 2 (gof) = 1593,6%. Which is bout 16x the damage normal auto-attack does.

And comparing normal attack, non sparked to 2 spark HH as that is still withing limits of somewhat expected sin moves:

45,701 / 12,154 * 100% = 376,0%

376% * 2,4 * 2 = 1804,8%, which is ~18 times the normal auto-attack damage.

As a sin I find said damage pump on highest hitting sin skill idiotic at best but meh.

Ps. But continue, I only wanted to provide math as I happened to had done most of it already.

Pps. Quilue, attack levels are easy to add on said number, I didnt toy with em, far too many different attack vs defense levels options. Say you have 50 attack levels over defense levels, simply multiply it with 1.5. Anybody else feeling like its the era of fishes again?

Edit: Not to ruin the wonderful relationship we got, you were wrong, neener neener neener.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

So in a 1v1 your aim is to not kill? I know what the role of a BM is in group PK thanks - that was pretty much my point. Don't really know what you mean by "i use numbers".

I don't really 1v1 anymore. If someone wants to excel at 1v1 I have the firm belief they should not be a BM, archer, wizard, or (vit) barb. Now, I'm not saying none of those classes -can- 1v1, particularly BM with the swiss army knife of control skills, but if you want to 1v1 be a seeker, sin, or even a psy would be better. I did a few drunken 1v1s last night, got my *** handed to me because in 1v1 I'm rustier than a ford. Point being I believe that for some classes, 1v1 in a debate is nonfactor. I played a PvE server so I wouldn't have to PK and I could just do TW, and NW once it came out.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Bhavvy, no matter u complaint about archer skill. this is the prove that archer no need more:

http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=pvp&class=all&server=all

and

http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=pvp&class=all&server=all

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

@Bhavvy, I do admire your dedication to analyzing each of the points I cobbled together, but you've missed the point I was trying to make. I'll reiterate myself so that I can be as crystal clear as possible.

I made no indication that all of the offensive features of an archer I listed are somehow 'OP' or even exclusive to an archer. My main point there was to demonstrate how MANY offensive traits archers have. (Though admittedly a few the points I made are archer exclusive, namely the full chi skill, the highest range, highest dps, lowest cooldown on an anti-stun skill, etc.) Anyways.

I'm not the one who has been throwing around the term 'OP', that is something you pulled out of your hat. Let me clarify this important point. An archer's offensive strength is justified because they AREN'T as tanky as other classes. I have not said that the archer class is OP. (I did suggest that getting back to back purges is OP, but that is not an archer-exclusive occurrence, though archers are certainly the best known for this lucky/unlucky event).

In other words, I'm saying the status quo for an archer is pretty acceptable. It makes perfect sense to me: you have more offensive traits, you get fewer defensive traits. Like... compare a psychic and a cleric. I have roughly a dozen skills which are related to buffs and heals. In comparison, a psychic has mostly damage-dealing or offensive skills instead. Now given that, would we expect the psychic or the cleric to be a more versatile damage dealer? The obvious, 'duh' answer is, 'psychic'. Ding ding ding! Correct answer.

Now back to archers. Given all of the offensive TRAITS I listed, it makes sense that they have fewer skills dedicated to defense. This is a simple tradeoff. Am I repeating myself yet? I'll say it as many times as it takes to sink in.

One more time. An archer's abundance of offensive traits justifies the lack of defensive traits.

Right. Now in my opinion, archers are very nicely balanced at end-end-game. For all archers talk about one-shotting others, this isn't a very common occurrence, unless we are talking triple spark, and deity builds, and possibly purges. Even classes capable of charm bypass usually have to kill people the dps-way, because getting all of the right factors together for a charm bypass (target near half hp, applying debuffs, getting that crit/zerk crit on a hard hitting skill) is far from easy. Now if we consider that people need to be killed without charm-bypasses anyways, archers start to look like a very viable choice. If an archer hits somebody long enough, that person gets purged. Depending on who that person is, it could mean instant death, or death within 2-6 seconds depending on gear. And even barbs, arguably the trickiest opponent for an archer, aren't entirely safe. I've seen jaded +12 barbs drop to archer bv + thunder shock + extreme poison combos... fancy that, an archer using dph. And inb4 'heart of steel': clerics and seekers face the same problem when we try to charm bypass! If you are using skills of a particular type of damage, it can be easy to block that damage with genie. Many classes face this problem, so don't pretend archers have it any worse.

As well, archers are the most efficient killers of players they outgear by a lot. By this I mean, when an archer is capable of charm bypassing regular players with auto attacks, they become more deadly than any other class. An auto attack is faster than most skills and also harder to spot coming, which means archers can attack enemies, and those enemies will generally die before they realize they are being attacked, and often without charm ticking. I have seen way too many archer NW and TW videos where this holds true to think otherwise. From a low-geared player's perspective, then, it is understandable why they think archers are the scariest class in pvp. However, I also believe this advantage diminishes as you approach end-endgame, until we arrive at what I discussed above: a state where archers are fairly balanced against other classes.

Briefly consider assassin vs. archer. I believe nobody will dispute that an assassin is king of 1vs1 pvp. But lets go a step further. Is this justifiable? The answer is, yes it is. An assassin's strength in 1vs1 comes with a massive drop in performance in group pvp situations---the very situation in where archers shine the brightest. In fact, the two light armor classes are at opposite ends of the spectrum here. To me that seems like good balance. But apparently archers take that to mean that archers are underpowered. Archers want greater 1vs1 power without giving up any of their mass pvp strength. Bah!

One last time: there is nothing broken about the archer class atm, for good or ill. They have good balance at end-end-game. They aren't the best 1vs1ers (though I've seen plenty of evidence to show that they can hold their own) but they perform well in group pvp. They don't have the best defensive options, but they have a lot of offensive options. Why can't archers just accept this? Why do archers always want more? To the other classes, it just looks like greediness. If other classes are getting stronger upgrades, it is because the devs think they should get them. Ergo, they, like myself, probably think that the archer class is already doing pretty well for itself, and they don't need to buff the class much more than it already is.

PS: Edit: so archer's have 5 aoes, not 4; I remember sta being aoe, but I double checked with ecatomb and in-game descriptions, and no aoe-ness was mentioned, so against my better judgement I didn't include it. Shoulda trusted my gut instinct on that one, I clearly remember it being aoe, since it is sandwiched between thunderous blast and barrage on my archer's skillbar! This particular oversight actually reinforces what I was saying about an archer's offensive versality though, so I'm glad I was reminded of it.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PS: Archers DO have 4 aoes. Wingspan. Barrage of arrows. Thunderous Blast. Arrow Inferno. Durr...

Pfft. You forgot STA. Noob. This invalidates your entire post. I win. b:victory

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pfft. You forgot STA. Noob. This invalidates your entire post. I win. b:victory

Funny thing, I was originally thinking of STA, and its been a little while since I used that on my archer, and I could have sworn that it was aoe. Small range but still aoe, because I have it next to thunderous blast and barrage on my skillbar. But here is the funny thing. I headed to ecatomb.net before making my post above, and read the skill description 3 times, and nowhere does it mention that the darn thing is aoe. I was like... wtf is going on here, so I put down the 4 skills I knew were aoes for sure till I could go check in-game, lol. Having just done so, I can verify that the skill description in game doesn't make any mention of its aoe-ness either, but it is definitely aoe, just like I remember. Strangeness. 5 aoes then, going on 6. Which doesn't invalidate my post either; they do have 4 aoes... they also happen to have more than 4 aoes, lol. If I have a basket full of apples and you say, 'do you have 2 apples?', and I could reply 'sure, I have 2 apples'. That is true statement.

Steellust - Sanctuary

One shot before "upgrade" one shot after "upgrade"
All people see is that one last shot before dying.
Archer deals 1009
Archer deals 2100
Sin deals 14358
Archer deals 1150
You cant perform that action while dead.

Fking archers!

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

5 aoes then, going on 6. Which doesn't invalidate my post either; they do have 4 aoes... they also happen to have more than 4 aoes, lol. If I have a basket full of apples and you say, 'do you have 2 apples?', and I could reply 'sure, I have 2 apples'. That is true statement.

Lol. No backpedaling allowed. Admit you made a nab mistake. It's ok, skill descriptions are notorious esp for archers. Also, the statements (we have 4 aoes & we have 5 aoes) can't both be correct. You either have one or the other, if both are correct then both are wrong. And thus the universe implodes. Stop it.

/thread b:bye

RankNine - Momaganon

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

Bhavvy, no matter u complaint about archer skill. this is the prove that archer no need more:

http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=pvp&class=all&server=all

and

http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=pvp&class=all&server=all

right, there you have a list of the longest actively playing pvp chars.
totally ignoring the fact that some of them already had 30.000 kills before purify spell appeared doesnt matter i guess.

i could make an r9.3+12 whatever-you-want-char today and own everyone just by smashing buttons tomorrow and i would not appear in that list for the next 3 years..duh.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

right, there you have a list of the longest actively playing pvp chars.
totally ignoring the fact that some of them already had 30.000 kills before purify spell appeared doesnt matter i guess.

i could make an r9.3+12 whatever-you-want-char today and own everyone just by smashing buttons tomorrow and i would not appear in that list for the next 3 years..duh.

You not utilised the name change scroll yet? Better hurry before I roll a toon called RankTen b:chuckle

RankNine - Momaganon

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You not utilised the name change scroll yet? Better hurry before I roll a toon called RankTen b:chuckle

that one already exists on morai, along with some others i would like to choose
why do you ask? and how is this related to the topic?

oh and yes, i am also kinda disappointed by the update. i kept my armor +10 for AGES, so i could transfer it cheaper to the next level

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

right, there you have a list of the longest actively playing pvp chars.
totally ignoring the fact that some of them already had 30.000 kills before purify spell appeared doesnt matter i guess.

i could make an r9.3+12 whatever-you-want-char today and own everyone just by smashing buttons tomorrow and i would not appear in that list for the next 3 years..duh.

that is why i put also K/D ratio. not only pvp ranking x.x

RankNine - Momaganon

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

that is why i put also K/D ratio. not only pvp ranking x.x

you did not

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not the one who has been throwing around the term 'OP', that is something you pulled out of your hat. Let me clarify this important point. An archer's offensive strength is justified because they AREN'T as tanky as other classes.

And yet it seems it's you who didn't get MY point. Archer offense really isnt good enough to justify our poor defense.

In other words, I'm saying the status quo for an archer is pretty acceptable. It makes perfect sense to me: you have more offensive traits, you get fewer defensive traits. Like... compare a psychic and a cleric. I have roughly a dozen skills which are related to buffs and heals. In comparison, a psychic has mostly damage-dealing or offensive skills instead. Now given that, would we expect the psychic or the cleric to be a more versatile damage dealer? The obvious, 'duh' answer is, 'psychic'. Ding ding ding! Correct answer.

Now back to archers. Given all of the offensive TRAITS I listed, it makes sense that they have fewer skills dedicated to defense. This is a simple tradeoff. Am I repeating myself yet? I'll say it as many times as it takes to sink in. One more time. An archer's abundance of offensive traits justifies the lack of defensive traits.

So let's compare psychic and archer then? 2 similar dps classes, and you'll see that a psychics defensive skills far outweigh an archers.
Continue to make comparison's which don't really have any real relevance though,you obviously enjoy repeating yourself as a cover up for your clear lack of understanding.The point was we're not asking for a gigantic range of defensive skills, heck the offensive skills we have currently are situational at best, but it would be nice to have some sort of buff worth casting? I can repeat that as many times as you'd like too until it sinks in.

Right. Now in my opinion, archers are very nicely balanced at end-end-game. For all archers talk about one-shotting others, this isn't a very common occurrence, unless we are talking triple spark, and deity builds, and possibly purges. Even classes capable of charm bypass usually have to kill people the dps-way, because getting all of the right factors together for a charm bypass (target near half hp, applying debuffs, getting that crit/zerk crit on a hard hitting skill) is far from easy. Now if we consider that people need to be killed without charm-bypasses anyways, archers start to look like a very viable choice. If an archer hits somebody long enough, that person gets purged. Depending on who that person is, it could mean instant death, or death within 2-6 seconds depending on gear. And even barbs, arguably the trickiest opponent for an archer, aren't entirely safe. I've seen jaded +12 barbs drop to archer bv + thunder shock + extreme poison combos... fancy that, an archer using dph. And inb4 'heart of steel': clerics and seekers face the same problem when we try to charm bypass! If you are using skills of a particular type of damage, it can be easy to block that damage with genie. Many classes face this problem, so don't pretend archers have it any worse.

No one is pretending that. That is something you've pulled out of the hat yourself. I'd genuinely like to see an archer take down a +12 jaded barb 1v1. Unless of course we're not talking about 1v1? Again - purge is not a guarantee we can rely on. I've been through many many consecutive fights where purge has never proced. You'd think I'd be more likely to purge at some point as those fights went on wouldnt you? But no. One of the biggest problems is that the skills that are required to control someone in small scale pvp are ones that can never purge.

As well, archers are the most efficient killers of players they outgear by a lot. By this I mean, when an archer is capable of charm bypassing regular players with auto attacks, they become more deadly than any other class. An auto attack is faster than most skills and also harder to spot coming, which means archers can attack enemies, and those enemies will generally die before they realize they are being attacked, and often without charm ticking. I have seen way too many archer NW and TW videos where this holds true to think otherwise. From a low-geared player's perspective, then, it is understandable why they think archers are the scariest class in pvp. However, I also believe this advantage diminishes as you approach end-endgame, until we arrive at what I discussed above: a state where archers are fairly balanced against other classes.

Again - another point you're making which no one seems to be arguing against. Yes - archers are great at killing lesser geared people. That's not really the point of this discussion.

Briefly consider assassin vs. archer. I believe nobody will dispute that an assassin is king of 1vs1 pvp. But lets go a step further. Is this justifiable? The answer is, yes it is. An assassin's strength in 1vs1 comes with a massive drop in performance in group pvp situations---the very situation in where archers shine the brightest. In fact, the two light armor classes are at opposite ends of the spectrum here. To me that seems like good balance. But apparently archers take that to mean that archers are underpowered. Archers want greater 1vs1 power without giving up any of their mass pvp strength. Bah!

Although a lot of 1v1 has been mentioned I still don't agree with that. Again - I'll repeat - no one is arguing against our OFFENSIVE prowess in group pvp situations. However, whether it's 1v1 or large scale pvp, DEFENSIVE skills only really affect you, and an assassin is much harder to hold down and kill than an archer even with our "low cool down long duration antistuns".

PS: Edit: so archer's have 5 aoes, not 4;

still wrong. forgetting whisper shot.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

you did not

http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=kill_death_ratio&class=all&server=all

RankNine - Momaganon

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=kill_death_ratio&class=all&server=all

all the archers listed there are full or almost r9.3+12 josd.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=kill_death_ratio&class=all&server=all

18 out 30 people on that list are not archers. Archers haven't been an OP class for a very long time and as we've stated - we're good in a group pvp environment which is where most killing happens, but don't forget archers have been around a lot longer than many other classes and are probably one of the most played characters on pwi because of how OP they USED to be.

Eoria - Harshlands

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

all the archers listed there are full or almost r9.3+12 josd.

A good bit of them also either only pvp in TW/NW or, when they do pvp in open map, they take extreme precautions to avoid dying like stealth+morai tele/IG to sz.

There's also quite a few there that didn't even step outside of sz in less than r9+12 with full jades.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

18 out 30 people on that list are not archers. Archers haven't been an OP class for a very long time and as we've stated - we're good in a group pvp environment which is where most killing happens, but don't forget archers have been around a lot longer than many other classes and are probably one of the most played characters on pwi because of how OP they USED to be.

hi bhavvy, u kidding me right? pwi have 10 class and from 30 highest K/D ratio, 12 of it are archer. just wow lol

Eoria - Harshlands

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

hi bhavvy, u kidding me right? pwi have 10 class and from 30 highest K/D ratio, 12 of it are archer. just wow lol

Read my post above yours. I just explained it since a good bit of those archers are from my server.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Read my post above yours. I just explained it since a good bit of those archers are from my server.

ya i just read. thanks for explanation

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

So in a 1v1 your aim is to not kill? I know what the role of a BM is in group PK thanks - that was pretty much my point. Don't really know what you mean by "i use numbers".



I find alacrity more useful than WOG when it comes to kiting/avoiding stuns etc. 1 second doesn't sound like a long time but it's long enough to get stunned or interrupted before it's done channeling, so yeah. Please remember while we're running and kiting that amazing offense that everyone seems to think archers have is completely useless.

After what you all said, and thinking about it, I agree the instant cast is quite useful. I can see why you all are saying what you are saying about that skill.

The channeling of that skill... can be quite detrimental for an archer in a situation where they need to get out.

Still though I would be more than happy myself to switch out the skill between the classes. (Imagine a bm with WOG as it is now, bms would be a lot more annoying to others if they had that skill, as most would likely pop it well before running into a group of people, therefore getting all the benefits of WOG despite it's lengthy channel.) That's not even mentioning what would happen in pve... bm's would be quite a bit better at pulling and staying alive, than arguably even barbs. Still though give me a barb for the aggro control any day/ability to out tank in certain situation thanks to more shield options... still I do really enjoy pulling on my bm I have done it quite a few times... fun times. :P

I also realize it would be really hard for bms to get the chi up, and potentially bring a stun lock/chi draining fight themselves to an end with WOG and it's channeling, but still I would prefer to be able to live and cause a bit of mayham to groups of pkers than getting out of one person's stunlock. (Hell with WOG, I can see bms being able to focus on a more viable genie for mass pvp. I.E an instant anti stun skill, as well as actually being able to use that genie for chi more often. I know they get that when they start to be able to really survive... but before that they are quite the fodder for MANY many people.)

EDIT: In other words the instant cast is more useful to archers, whereas imho everything WOG does is more beneficial to bm's... (Even with the lack of instant channel) so yea I would be willing to make that trade. ^^

Burnout - Harshlands

Steellust - Sanctuary wrote: »

One shot before "upgrade" one shot after "upgrade"
All people see is that one last shot before dying.
Archer deals 1009
Archer deals 2100
Sin deals 14358
Archer deals 1150
You cant perform that action while dead.

Fking archers!

Archer deals 6402
Mystic deals 988
Archer deals 6599


Recent log of an actual NW i did vs another archer R999+12. Yes he charm bypassed me.

On another note I was able to tank a R999 +10 seeker for half of one NW (6-ish minutes?) without too much difficulty. Granted I was doing like 10% of his hp per nuke, but he was nowhere near as impossible to deal with as the archer. (both instances I was only self + NW buffed).

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Bhavvy is apparently under the impression that 'being able to purge from 32meters away + having highest ranged aps and dps' does not endow archers with any offensive advantage. He uses this to argue that archers need more defense 'because an archer's offense isn't really all that great'. Capital BS, lol.

Lets discuss 1vs1 for a moment, shall we. Ever heard of something called Spirit of defense/offense? Yeah, they've been around for a while now. Or perhaps you don't have those, but you do have the older apoths, the ones you got from Maiden-kissed chests or Tiger Event. Lets assume an archer and... oh, any class besides veno or another archer really, duke it out. They both have full buffs to start. (Are you going to pretend that you don't enter pvp at west/wherever you go without buffs in? HA. Don't lie, you at least go with cleric buffs MINIMUM.)

Roughly 30s to 2 minutes into the fight, the archer purges his opponent. The opponent, assuming they survive this event, is now left with an interesting dilemma. Do they pop a spirit of defense and risk having those buffs disappear (more likely that they will than not) well before apoth cooldown is up? Or do they continue to fight unbuffed, and save their apoth for dire need?

In a 1vs1 where an archer can focus fire their opponent for a long time, a lot of people will come to the conclusion that they can't risk using spirit of defense. That means for the rest of the fight, any defensive advantage the archer's opponent may have had is gone. It becomes a fight between a fully buffed archer vs. a self-buffed opponent. Not only does the archer's damage go way up on that opponent, but in a number of cases the damage of the opponent goes down, increasing the archer's defense EVEN MORE. Strength of titans/spirits gift will be gone, and possibly base buffs for crit and critical hit damage, or buffs like a barb's poison fang or psychic's black voodoo. Even if the person DOES use a spirit of defense, they are very unlikely to get the chance to also use a spirit of offense.

Wait... are you going to tell me you don't use spirit of defense in 1vs1? Huh? Why the f'ck not? Too unfair? Or are you seriously trying to tell me you use spirit of defense and you still can't win 1vs1 fights, even with such a big defensive and offensive edge. I call more BS.

Archer's complain about their 1vs1... perhaps these are the overly honorable individuals who don't use buffs in 1vs1. Really though, I can't be responsible for them wishing to nerf themselves like that. By all indications, if your class is really as underpowered as you say, you should be using every means available to you to gain an edge, and that means buffs and buff apoths.

As an archer, you tend to hold onto your buffs longer than other people, particularly in group situations. The only class that holds onto buffs better are assassins, due to tidal protection. Archers can often avoid the melee people who might try and purge them... though this isn't very likely in the first place, since a bm/barb in group situation is more likely to be using their r9rr weapon instead of a weaker r8r purge pole. Archers can also teleport or stealth from venos, avoiding a purge that many other classes need to use apoth or genie to block. And archers are really good at avoiding purges from other archers, due to their ability to kite back out of range more easily than many other classes.

And that is just in group situations. In 1vs1, you can hold onto your buffs for a mighty long time indeed, or, in the rare event you do actually get purged, you'll be more likely to use a spirit of defense to counter that purge.

Say for example a barb is using their 20% chance purge (which has 30s cd) roughly every 45 seconds... on average they'll get one purge off every ~3-4 minutes. That is nearly the time needed for 2 cycles of apoth cooldown, and this is being fairly optimistic in assuming barb is tanky and fast enough to stick to you like glue, and be in human form to try their purge skill.

And something like this assumes your opponent can purge in the first place! Venos aside, arcanes don't purge. Assassins in r9rr gear certainly won't be purging you (they attack way too slow with purge bows). Even those classes that can purge might not be able to purge you. Barbs will have difficulty staying in your melee range long enough to purge you... blademasters likewise. Even if a blademaster or barb does purge you with a r8r purge pole, they have to react to their own purge and switch back to their r9rr weapon. This gives you oodles of time to react to the purge (even a veno purge gives you plenty of time to react...the only purge in the game where you have little to no time to react is the archer purge).

So in summary. Yes, archer's don't have the built-in defenses that other classes do. However, archers can often keep a full complement of buffs where their opponents(s) cannot in 1vs1 or small group pvp. I argue that this counts as a strong defensive advantage for archers, since buffs are very powerful (and consequently why purge is so powerful).

Feel free to quote this paragraph if you've ever fought an archer in 1vs1 or small group pvp, and the archer kept all his buffs but you lost your buffs quite quickly. I know for sure this has happened countless times to me.

Eoria - Harshlands

Generally, the agreement for 1v1s on this server is self-buffed unless both are able to purge or one person has a significant advantage over another. So no, those pots aren't usually used.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Generally, the agreement for 1v1s on this server is self-buffed unless both are able to purge or one person has a significant advantage over another. So no, those pots aren't usually used.

So basically we are talking about a willing collusion among archers to nerf themselves by abstaining from apoths that give them a distinct advantage. These same archers then go onto the forums and complain about being underpowered. What?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And something like this assumes your opponent can purge in the first place! Venos aside, arcanes don't purge. Assassins in r9rr gear certainly won't be purging you (they attack way too slow with purge bows). Even those classes that can purge might not be able to purge you. Barbs will have difficulty staying in your melee range long enough to purge you... blademasters likewise. Even if a blademaster or barb does purge you with a r8r purge pole, they have to react to their own purge and switch back to their r9rr weapon. This gives you oodles of time to react to the purge (even a veno purge gives you plenty of time to react...the only purge in the game where you have little to no time to react is the archer purge).

As a melee I find it difficult to react to/prevent a purge PERIOD. (Sure it is easier to react these days, but still it isn't easy) Being able to attack at a distance is quite a decent little advantage. Hell even when you know the animations/what skills to look out for, the chances of being able to prevent something that you don't know where or when it's coming from is slim at best. After all you can't keep an eye out on 10+ people. (This is true for ranged, mage, and melee, melee just has a harder time, since they can't choose to sit back, and play purely defensive/waiting for people to get into a position that favors them.)

Still the purge is indeed nice, even if it doesn't activate as often as some people would perhaps like.