Another update where we got pooed on...

Saethos - Raging Tide

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

replies in red.

Fair enough on the 100% accuracy skills. No wait, not fair enough, since smack, our basic 100% accuracy skill that we always use, is reserved for when a caster procs purify and antistun. Blade hurl is also 100% accuracy and reserved to prevent purify proc. Flame Tsunami is 100% accurate as well, and comes with a 3 second stun, the only skill that has complete accuracy that is viable against archers. A BM would have to go out of his way with a bloodlusted vendetta against you to sue all his 100% accuracy arsenal on you, which would counter your argument if we really needed to do that as it would prove that you are a large threat. Only one control skill is not based on evasion, it's Roar, and that has to be reserved for large groups (or 1v1) which, any archer worth his salt won't be a part of such a nice stunnable group.

When on my wizard, an archer can pop me by surprise with nothing but a stunning arrow and hit 3-4 hits on me before I can react. By that time, I'm dead. I'll admit to not being a pro wizard, though, but still, in my honest opinion archers range is still a rather large advantage.

Chaining antistuns would be rather simple, really. You already have 20 seconds between the two, and that's if you use them back to back. The way us BMs use stun chains, for example, involves fillers. The best archers I've seen use one anti stun, then just as it wears off, they leap to the side out of nowhere. Then once the range starts getting clsoe they instantly leap again and sue the other anti stun and repeat. You only have 10 seconds of filler time, for a BM without demon skills or a sage BM, you have a lot more to worry about that 10 seconds since you have no true range advantage.

Archer stealth is viable in 1v1 (usually), NW Flag, NW crystal, TW by your factions towers (seen it). That's basically everything other than bridge battle NW. Crystal being the most debatable, but I've one man taken a crystal battle because the enemy nation was PKing the other 10 or so on my side while I ninja'd around. An archer/sin in stealth guarding them would be a great idea, I wouldn't even be marrowed and be an easy kill with a few metal skills. Any other time I would be, but there being a sign of nobody around is a sure sign of a sin around, so magic marrow would be suicide.

My point with me not having GoF was simply a shot at Bhavy as he should know, being on the same server and having faced me on multiple occasions, that I don't have r9 weapon. I meant nothing to archers on it. Yes GoF proc rate is amazing, however you need to remember, for barbs, BMs, and seekers, it's usually not even as OP as someone might think. The way the math pans out is, yes GoF is roughly 20%, but the odds of a crit zerk on a, let's assume 160 dex in tank gear BM, is a small 4~5%.

Arguing genies off the assumptions from archers I have faced. I usually see AD in there to fill antistun time or survive some damage, level 10 windshiled on dex genies, stuff like that. I see ToP once but I'm assuming that to not be very good for archers since it was just once. Could have even been an alt for all I know.

Archers aren't really built for 1v1 like the sin is, and neither is BM, but BM does do better than archer for the sake of stuns and accurate skills, but place a sin in mass PvP and they are AoE bait, archers are the ones taking out the casters, and in my experience, using BV on the barb if the BM is dead, or HF is on cd.

Any of the comments in red I didn't respond to I will swallow my pride and say I stand corrected.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's 3 mins: http://blog-imgs-62.fc2.com/r/u/s/rustrust/201310211745391e9.jpg

I don't see a 2 spark slow with a chance for a 1.5s debuff ever being used. When are you ever going to want to cast that over barrage?
The vicious arrow upgrade won't make the skill viable since the damage is still very low.
The winged shell upgrade won't make that skill viable since it still pops in 1 hit.
The wingspan upgrade is +2m aoe range and +2k damage is barely noticeable. That skill is rarely used in actual PVP since if you're in melee range odds are you're either stunned / sealed or are attempting to cast WoG / leap so you can kite. The only time when you stay to wingspan is against lower geared that you don't need to worry about any way.

There's no denying this update is going to be terrible for archers.

Sorry but I know some of the best played and well geared archer's on my server. Most of them agree that archers don't need a buff. You seem to underestimate how much damage archers can actually do. And wingspan is more usefull in PvP than you realize, you just have to use it. As for that other guy talking about sin teleports, sins have 2, both with fairly long cd's. Antistun the first tele then leap, leap again after the second tele. You are now out of the sins range. It's simplier than the baddies make it out to be.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Fair enough on the 100% accuracy skills. No wait, not fair enough, since smack, our basic 100% accuracy skill that we always use, is reserved for when a caster procs purify and antistun. Blade hurl is also 100% accuracy and reserved to prevent purify proc. Flame Tsunami is 100% accurate as well, and comes with a 3 second stun, the only skill that has complete accuracy that is viable against archers. A BM would have to go out of his way with a bloodlusted vendetta against you to sue all his 100% accuracy arsenal on you, which would counter your argument if we really needed to do that as it would prove that you are a large threat. Only one control skill is not based on evasion, it's Roar, and that has to be reserved for large groups (or 1v1) which, any archer worth his salt won't be a part of such a nice stunnable group.

WoG, BV, Stun & QS are reserved for green leprechauns so archer cant use them for anything. Any and all arguments suggesting using said skills are invalid due green leprechauns.

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

When on my wizard, an archer can pop me by surprise with nothing but a stunning arrow and hit 3-4 hits on me before I can react. By that time, I'm dead. I'll admit to not being a pro wizard, though, but still, in my honest opinion archers range is still a rather large advantage.

That 2m(Demon)/4m(sage) range advantage OP! That increase (6,7%/13,3%) increase totally gives archer ability to spawn from the bushes, ridges, whatever that might block view! Wizards though, with their puny range of 30ms cant surprise anybody as they have to get on their targets face. Video from LoL that might help.

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Archer stealth is viable in 1v1 (usually), NW Flag, NW crystal, TW by your factions towers (seen it). That's basically everything other than bridge battle NW. Crystal being the most debatable, but I've one man taken a crystal battle because the enemy nation was PKing the other 10 or so on my side while I ninja'd around. An archer/sin in stealth guarding them would be a great idea, I wouldn't even be marrowed and be an easy kill with a few metal skills. Any other time I would be, but there being a sign of nobody around is a sure sign of a sin around, so magic marrow would be suicide.

The lack of mobility makes you a stationary tower enemy "cant see". If you are OP enough, its just stupid to waste your time sitting there. If your not, you really arent gonna stop anything alone. More useful is to baselock enemy in crystal map, have those high level sins roam chasing anything(mostly sins) that escapes trough lock. Simply put, while said strategy might work, you could do so much more with your time. Never forget how sins usually out level archers and sitting in stealth like that is just easy pray for sins. Even ctf its not gonna work, you simply wont have time to move in position.

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

My point with me not having GoF was simply a shot at Bhavy as he should know, being on the same server and having faced me on multiple occasions, that I don't have r9 weapon. I meant nothing to archers on it. Yes GoF proc rate is amazing, however you need to remember, for barbs, BMs, and seekers, it's usually not even as OP as someone might think. The way the math pans out is, yes GoF is roughly 20%, but the odds of a crit zerk on a, let's assume 160 dex in tank gear BM, is a small 4~5%.

So your talking bout vit builds. Let me ask you, how many vit build archer you know? Oh right, none, maybe thats where the damage comes from? Gain from vit is so little compared to gear its not really worth it. Just as you are easy pray with low refines, so are archers. Archers got range on you, yes, so what? Why dont you cry bout casters and seekers in the same manner?

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Archers aren't really built for 1v1 like the sin is, and neither is BM, but BM does do better than archer for the sake of stuns and accurate skills, but place a sin in mass PvP and they are AoE bait, archers are the ones taking out the casters, and in my experience, using BV on the barb if the BM is dead, or HF is on cd.

Any of the comments in red I didn't respond to I will swallow my pride and say I stand corrected.

So whats the point? Archers are weakest of em all in 1vs1 situation and only amazing in killing undergeared targets. Terrible at 1vs1, good at mass PvP, doesnt seem broken to me.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry but I know some of the best played and well geared archer's on my server. Most of them agree that archers don't need a buff. You seem to underestimate how much damage archers can actually do. And wingspan is more usefull in PvP than you realize, you just have to use it. As for that other guy talking about sin teleports, sins have 2, both with fairly long cd's. Antistun the first tele then leap, leap again after the second tele. You are now out of the sins range. It's simplier than the baddies make it out to be.

Your the baddie <.<. Archer leaps 30s cd, shadow jump = 15s, shadow tele ~150s? 2 runs, 2 force stealths. Major locking ability on 1 target, tidal to ignore CC. If you cant keep up with your average archer as a sin, you are terrible. I have ever only once faced archer who could kite well enough to be serious pain and partially as I refused to stealth in said 1vs1. Archer vs sin on equal gear and skill should go to sin bout 9 to 1 wins.

All wingspan does is "defense charm" on demon, sage has chi proc, oh and some damage. I can only see it being legit after WoG and leaping right after. Casting it w/o WoG would be idiotic move just asking to get locked again.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

As much as I might not like Hide, I find myself agreeing with him here.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry but I know some of the best played and well geared archer's on my server. Most of them agree that archers don't need a buff. You seem to underestimate how much damage archers can actually do. And wingspan is more usefull in PvP than you realize, you just have to use it. As for that other guy talking about sin teleports, sins have 2, both with fairly long cd's. Antistun the first tele then leap, leap again after the second tele. You are now out of the sins range. It's simplier than the baddies make it out to be.

If you talked to the top archers on my server, you'd get pretty much the same response. You know why? Because as has been mentioned several times previously, top-tier geared archers significantly outnumber those of any other class on most (all?) servers. They simply don't have people that constitute a serious threat. On an equal playing field, things are much different.

And no, it's not that simple... especially since (1) you've now used both of your leaps, leaving you vulnerable to immobilize, and more importantly - (2) a sin would have to be pretty stupid to use their telestun on you when you're antistunned.

And no, wingspan is -not- very useful in PvP. If you're only in range of a person or two, what difference is that base + 4k damage going to do? Not much. If you're in range of a lot, sure, you'll do some nice damage overall, but you're also sitting there channeling a flashy skill for 2 seconds in the middle of a group of people that want to kill you. Stop being an idiot and move out of melee range.

Saethos - Raging Tide

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

WoG, BV, Stun & QS are reserved for green leprechauns so archer cant use them for anything. Any and all arguments suggesting using said skills are invalid due green leprechauns.

What?

That 2m(Demon)/4m(sage) range advantage OP! That increase (6,7%/13,3%) increase totally gives archer ability to spawn from the bushes, ridges, whatever that might block view! Wizards though, with their puny range of 30ms cant surprise anybody as they have to get on their targets face. Video from LoL that might help.

Wizards can be spotted easier due to longer channeling

The lack of mobility makes you a stationary tower enemy "cant see". If you are OP enough, its just stupid to waste your time sitting there. If your not, you really arent gonna stop anything alone. More useful is to baselock enemy in crystal map, have those high level sins roam chasing anything(mostly sins) that escapes trough lock. Simply put, while said strategy might work, you could do so much more with your time. Never forget how sins usually out level archers and sitting in stealth like that is just easy pray for sins. Even ctf its not gonna work, you simply wont have time to move in position.

So you have 4-6 sins in your NW squads?

So your talking bout vit builds. Let me ask you, how many vit build archer you know? Oh right, none, maybe thats where the damage comes from? Gain from vit is so little compared to gear its not really worth it. Just as you are easy pray with low refines, so are archers. Archers got range on you, yes, so what? Why dont you cry bout casters and seekers in the same manner?

Nobody said ANYTHING about vit. Ever. Where did you even get this assumption?

So whats the point? Archers are weakest of em all in 1vs1 situation and only amazing in killing undergeared targets. Terrible at 1vs1, good at mass PvP, doesnt seem broken to me.

I've seen loads of archer take out equal geared poeple in PvP

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Archers wanting way more defense to be as good in 1vs1 as they are in group pvp.

Come on guys... stop being so greedy. You cannot get the best of both worlds. Archers have many advantages already, so stop pretending they don't. This is why non-archers come to the the archer forums: to correct the misinformation archers spread about their own class.

Archer offensive strengths:

-magical and physical damage
-highest range in game
-highest ranged dps in game
-highest aps in a r9rr build (before you say 'assassin', remember they'll be using chill of the deep...)
-difficult to spot attacks (auto attacks are nearly invisible when compared to the flashy animations you see around your character when other classes attack)
-low cooldown, long-duration anti-stuns
-ability to regain your entire chi bar instantly
-leaps that don't cost chi
-stealth
-stuns
-immobilize
-seal
-4 aoe attacks, soon to be 5
-variety of strong debuffs (25% hf, 16-20% max hp debuff, 50% metal debuff, 50% magic/physical debuff if sage, slow debuff up to 80%)
-PURGE on your highest damage weapons

The points I listed combine to make archers one of, if not THE deadliest class in any group pvp situation. I can guarantee you that most classes don't have a list this long for offensive strengths. Yes, stealth can be used offensively; when I'm fighting archers they often use stealth to sneak in a triple spark whose animation I can't see, or to put a blood vow on me that I can't avoid, which is followed by stun. Leaps are offensive too, since it puts you back to your full damage if you were in melee range of enemy.

WANT DEFENSE? GIVE UP SOME OFFENSE. OR REROLL a less offensive class that has more defense but not nearly as much offensive firepower. But for goodness sakes, all of this negativity... jeez... so tacky. Saying 'I think we should get a bit of a defensive upgrade', sure. I'll accept that such a thing wouldn't be OP, though I'd argue it isn't particularly necessary. Saying 'archers are SO WEAK POOR ME' I will not accept. Guess what? The other classes don't accept it either. We have all been killed by archers WAY TOO FRICKEN OFTEN to accept that sorta bullcrap.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

I've not read what the supposed archer updates are but the amount of non-archer QQ in this thread is truly funny. It's normal for the PW crowd to complain that their class got shafted while everyone else gets the best buffs. What's with this bull**** about not having the "right" to complain? I am sure there are plenty of QQs in each class's respective forums.

Quilue - Sanctuary

I was originally going to stop posting until I see more updates, but the retardedness of how this thread has gone compels me to mock you. (Not Aesthor)

Diondagger: I'm sorry you get one shot before catching a kiting archer, and thus thinks archer kiting > all. Any sin that is any good would not lose to an archer.

Everyone else: The reason all you're spewing is **** is because you only look at one class and talk about what this one class has and calls it good. Good compared to what class? Where is your analysis of what other classes have that supports a conclusion that archers are good?

Which physical class do not have anti-stun? Which caster do not have anti-stun for that matter? You have wings of grace...congratu****inglations, every other physical class also have anti-stuns. Quit spewing how archers have anti-stun and range and that supposedly makes it OK for other ranged classes to get new skills with 500%+ weapon damage adds while archers get vicious arrow and winged shell adjustments.

I also don't give a damn about your stupid personal experiences playing **** geared robes that die to 4 hits from an archer, because subpar-geared archers die from other classes in 1 hit. How can you possibly say that your wizard dies before you can react when 4 hits from an archer takes more than 3 seconds even with Demon QS proc? So wizards are supposedly easier to spot now because they channel before hitting you as opposed to hit you for 3s straight right?

You see this update and think it's OK solely because the archer class isn't getting anything great. Well you can tell us how OK it is for you when clerics shoot metal at the rate archers auto attack, or when wizards hit you for base + 800% wep attack + 9k damage, or when sins hit you for a 12x base damage zerk crit, etc etc etc. How does that sound?

Saethos - Raging Tide

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You see this update and think it's OK solely because the archer class isn't getting anything great. Well you can tell us how OK it is for you when clerics shoot metal at the rate archers auto attack, or when wizards hit you for base + 800% wep attack + 9k damage, or when sins hit you for a 12x base damage zerk crit, etc etc etc. How does that sound?

That's exactly it. I'm thinking it's ok because BMs get an overdue damage overhaul, wizard channeling is still long in comparison, Barbs get a better bleed on sunder (which actually helps aggro), and clerics get some decent support features as well. Do I think it's ok that archers aren't getting a buff? No. Do I think it's unfair? Yes.

However, when I am on a side of an argument, I provide input and logic. I'm not saying their is no right to complain, not saying there is no need for an upgrade, not saying you are OP, I'm saying you should provide better arguments. Instead of saying "X sucks, Y is nonfactor, and Z is nothing but ****" try saying "This should be this" like Astrelle did a few pages back with WoP being based on max HP instead of being gone in one hit.

Wizards will always hit hard, but the life of a (standard) wizard is AoE, then watch everyone target you and die from ranged DD (archers/seekers and in some cases BMs and sins)

Where are you getting 12x base damage from? Crit = 2x, Zerk = 2x. Crit zerk = 4x. Let's assume demon wolf emblem for additional 40% crit damage, that's still only 4.8%. Unless you get HF'd you're not taking 12%, and HF is better used on HA classes, and will probably miss an archer anyway, and if it doesn't, they can leap out, just like a BM can.

EDIT: I misunderstood, sorry.

I do agree archers deserve a boost on, at the very least, WoP, but I don't think that is a good cause for each and every archer to sit there and complain about it, that's all.

You've come in and turned a debate into an argument by using a counter argument no shy of a mere insult, come back when you can provide real arguments.

This post.

lavianultima

arent people happy that pwi is still there and makin updates that means they are still there and havent abandon the players

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Where are you getting 12x base damage from? Crit = 2x, Zerk = 2x. Crit zerk = 4x. Let's assume demon wolf emblem for additional 40% crit damage, that's still only 4.8%. Unless you get HF'd you're not taking 12%, and HF is better used on HA classes, and will probably miss an archer anyway, and if it doesn't, they can leap out, just like a BM can.

Divinity Prison/Headhunt-Raving Slash

Range 4.5 meters
Channel 0.4 seconds
Cast 2.5 seconds
Cooldown 30 seconds

Stun the target for 6 seconds, inflicting base physical damage plus 750% weapon damage
plus 14994 physical damage; and slow by 60% for 10 seconds.

Costs 2 sparks

Sage: 50% chance to reduce cost to 1 spark
Demon: Extend stun by 1 second

base + 750% weapon damage + 15k is roughly 300% base damage for an endgame sin. 300% x 4 = 1200% base damage on a zerk crit.

That's about the same damage that an endgame archer would do if they had a skill that allowed them to do 8x their base damage (4x before crit), and we all know that if archers got a skill anywhere near that powerful everyone would be crying bloody murder.

Saethos - Raging Tide

My apologies, I didn't realize we were referring to skill damage, I thought we just meant base damage dealt (which skills would be considered base at a non crit non zerk) So that part was just a misunderstanding.

Quilue - Sanctuary

@above, I was actually looking at

七杀

施放距离　近身
消耗真气　130
准备时间　0.1　秒
施放时间　2.5　秒
施放间隔　15.0　秒
元气获取　30
武器限制　匕首

修真期要求　上仙
将目标定身3秒，并对其展开狂风暴雨般的
连击，造成总计320%基础物理攻击力的物
理伤害。

320% base physical damage. So yeah, if it zerk crits...how about if it zerks crits with Wolf Emblem, 2 spark, and Chill?

The condition is that suppose the target stands still for 3s, which basically means casters might not like to channel anything when sins are around.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

base + 750% weapon damage + 15k is roughly 300% base damage for an endgame sin. 300% x 4 = 1200% base damage on a zerk crit.

That's about the same damage that an endgame archer would do if they had a skill that allowed them to do 8x their base damage (4x before crit), and we all know that if archers got a skill anywhere near that powerful everyone would be crying bloody murder.

Lies, not 'everyone' would be crying bloody murder... archers would be loving it, and there would be people trying to defend it. (Mainly archers, there may even be a few more from other classes, but still generally when someone/a class is on the benefiting end of getting something completely overpowered, they are more than content with keeping it/defending it like it isn't overpowered.)

EDIT: Sorry for being a smartass. ^^

Saethos - Raging Tide

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

EDIT: Sorry for being a smartass. ^^

I laughed. But I'm drunk, so **** if I know.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archer offensive strengths:
-stuns
-seal
-variety of strong debuffs (... slow debuff up to 80%)

Leave it to non-archers to come to the archer forums to teach us how good Stormrage and Whisper Shot are. b:embarrass

Saethos - Raging Tide

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Leave it to non-archers to come to the archer forums to teach us how good Stormrage and Whisper Shot are. b:embarrass

Personally, I think archer stuns are pretty lame when compared to other ranged DDs stuns. I wouldn't object to getting better stuns. Lol @ Stormrage.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Personally, I think archer stuns are pretty lame when compared to other ranged DDs stuns. I wouldn't object to getting better stuns. Lol @ Stormrage.

This thread makes me feel bad b:surrender

I made an archer cause I was told something like YAH MAN STORMRAGE EAGLON IS SUPA OP, GO DEMON MAN!

And when I read the skills from this thread, I try to imagine them in places like delta or PV and they seem ok; I don't see a big deal about them, some are getting increased some are being tweaked/nerfed.

I do understand what everyone means by our Wings of Grace, the channel time is too long... It really should be instant to channel. Immunity is during cast, not channel~ for anyone without an archer.

Vicious arrow is a poopy pvp and pve skill.
Frost Arrow could be useful in pvp to kite, it is defintely useful in pve to slow mobs (not everyone is r9, or has a +10 weapon, mkay)
I REALLY wish Thunderous Blast had a shorter channel time, that skill alone is the reason I run around with my R8 ring.
Winged Shell is not worth the chi in an end-game battle (T3vT3 or R9vR9) But it is nice passive way to grind some mobs in pve.
Deadly Shot lets me down, I would assume a skill that does straight Phys damage would outshine an auto attack.
Whisper shot has its uses, but I never really see an archer use it against me (r9rr barb). When I try to use it, it's mostly a support skill on a target that is attacking my teammate, and that's pretty much the extent of it, just a small chance to interrupt a potentially deadly move.
Serrated Tooth Arrow, has anyone used that ever? I never had a reason to use it; not when I was level 5 battling mobs, not when I was level 60 doing bh51, not when I was 93 in FC, not when I was 101 in NW. What's the deal?


For retrospective my barb has a massive 2 (two) useless skills.

Garrotte.
Firestorm.

Burnout - Harshlands

Actually, I'll be the first to admit that archer has great difficulty killing an AA that has cleric + self buff active (even if you're supposed to specialize in killing AA). Despite that you guys still do your job very well only because of purge proc. Purging an AA makes them retardedly squishy due to the nature of AA defenses.

I think most of the QQ is due to the massive effect a purge has once it does proc, and not over the actual archer class itself. But the root of that problem is that buffs are *way* too effective. I know of very few other games where buffs can increase survivability by over 300%. That's just ridiculous.

PWI has been trying to fix that to an extent by offering ridiculous attack levels on weapons, and the introduction of deity stones and stronger skills. The problem w/ that is archers can already deal with full buffs, while every other non-veno/non archer class is has extreme difficulty killing an equally geared buffed target.

IMO they should nerf or remove spirit blackhole, then buff archer damage to compensate. I don't think you guys would be pleased with getting GoF, despite your qq on the matter - after all, it's only 20% more damage on average, and a 4x damage auto doesn't one-shot anything. Even with a 20% GoF damage buff, I doubt archer's ability to kill a buffed AA class. But something else, like SKILL (not aa) buffs equal to what wizards got, plus GoF, would definitely do it.

I don't think it's good that an archer's only solution right now for killing an equally geared cleric w/ buffs and plume shell is "gee I hope purge procs and I crit twice in a row insta-killing him". It isn't fun for either person involved.

Maybe take out spirit blackhole and introduce a new bow add-on? "Spell pierce: ignore 50% of an opponent's armor and magic resist buffs". That still lets them kill arcanes while also not making it too easy to kill HA's.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Leave it to non-archers to come to the archer forums to teach us how good Stormrage and Whisper Shot are. b:embarrass

Leave it to a demon archer to comment on the SAGE version of stormrage...

And whisper shot? I shouldn't have to tell you that it has uses... clever archers have used it against me when I got purify proc to prevent me from getting a kill on them (since I always try to hug an archer's melee range if possible), or to continue a stun lock (particularly useful when I'm getting ganked). I WILL call you a liar if you try to pretend you haven't found this skill isn't useful at times... either that or you aren't nearly as smart as I once thought.

@burnout, now that I think about it, I entirely agree with you. The purge is only so powerful because the buffs are so powerful, and because when purge procs, it removes pretty much everything (few special non-purgeable buffs aside). I highly doubt the devs would ever restructure the archer class so drastically... but what if they modified purge itself? For example, just off the top of my head, what if purge removed, randomly, between 1-10 buffs? You could even tinker with purge proc rate to adjust for this new mechanism, a higher proc rate. Sometimes you'd lose all your buffs like before, and sometimes you'd still hold onto some of them. That would be interesting I think.

As it is now, purge is so powerful because when I'm purged, I take double damage and have 35% less hp (and some of my self buffs may be gone too). It becomes a matter of first 'how good is your gear' (because you cannot react to an archer purge until about 1 second after it has happened, if you are going by the purge animation), and THEN 'how good is your reaction time'. Hence why archers destroy anything that isn't well geared.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

What I meant by your own HF was a damage amp, it's...25%? Which is still a fair deal. Long cooldown, big deal, I'd still take that on any other class.

1 second channeling is too long? I'll trade WoG for my Will of Bodhisattva any day without a thought.

Sins still get stunned when Focused Mind hits for one, and they still take damage when TP evades status, meaning it's only a partial advantage, whereas if I miss an archer with Drake Bash, I waste a spark, you take no damage, you don't get stunned, and I have to wait on its cooldown.

It's not about closing the gap, it's about staying far enough away that you can get the first jump on the target.

Agreed on Apoth, but archers still have pretty good antistun chains.

Not moving in stealth isn't a big deal when the enemy doesn't know you're there, it holds just as much surprise as a sin, it's all about strategical placement.

Wizard teleport is OP. BM leap is only forward/backward. We have to change position to leap to you, plus it's 15 meters. Reel in is luck based, we're forced to Reckless Rush, put it on CD and hope to god you haven't started channeling WoP because if you did it won't land and you can run away. after putting our best distance closer on cooldown. Sin leaps? Well, they are built for 1v1, so it makes sense for them.

I don't have GoF on my t3 axes, that would be hax. I get purged by archers every single time I run into one. Without fail. "Not a good enough proc rate."

Fair enough on the physical damage, but why are you using physical attacks on close range targets anyway?

I admit, I know absolutely nothing about archer genies...

Sins do not get a new stun, it's a fusion of Headhunt and Raving Slash, so they lose their previous headhunt. BM and barb have been over due for damage increases for years. You archers stay alive a **** ton longer than any wiz, cleric, or mystic that I have ever run into.

I'd like to know where your archer experience comes from. All of this just sounds like someone who's read the skill set and has theoretically conjured up situational tactical advantages. Purge is a low proc rate - this is a fact.
I'd rather have your insta cast anti stun.
I don't hit targets at close range because usually im stunned or paralysed with leaps on cool down and have to use my genie to get away which is the point Im trying to make here which you obviously missed.
Wizards clerics and mystics are some of the tankiest classes out there because of their self buffs. Have you ever tried to kill any endgame mystic/wizard/cleric that is endgame on your BM? Since BM's are probably the worst 1v1 class after archers I'm willing to bed you'll die, but probably slower than an archer with your gear would
Staying far enough away? No such thing when closing the gap takes less than a second.
"If"?
Again more situational things which rarely happen.
Yes, if an archer purges uses blood vow and manages to land an aim low a few auto attacks and a stun and more auto attacks and another aim low and more auto attacks that end game arcane target is POSSIBLY going to die assuming the other persons apoth and genie are on cool down.
This chances of all that happening an archers way at max range is less than 1%.
The chances of even killing that target is less.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Have you ever tried to kill any endgame mystic/wizard/cleric that is endgame on your BM?

Kill on your BM

BM is not a DD, it's not a class made for going for the kill. At all. /discussion

I don't like the DD role. Crowd Control or tank, please.

As far as the rest of the arguments, I use numbers. You'll need a better argument than "other calsses be OP, yo" because by that logic, nobody would be an archer at all.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I was originally going to stop posting until I see more updates, but the retardedness of how this thread has gone compels me to mock you. (Not Aesthor)

Diondagger: I'm sorry you get one shot before catching a kiting archer, and thus thinks archer kiting > all. Any sin that is any good would not lose to an archer.

Everyone else: The reason all you're spewing is **** is because you only look at one class and talk about what this one class has and calls it good. Good compared to what class? Where is your analysis of what other classes have that supports a conclusion that archers are good?

Which physical class do not have anti-stun? Which caster do not have anti-stun for that matter? You have wings of grace...congratu****inglations, every other physical class also have anti-stuns. Quit spewing how archers have anti-stun and range and that supposedly makes it OK for other ranged classes to get new skills with 500%+ weapon damage adds while archers get vicious arrow and winged shell adjustments.

I also don't give a damn about your stupid personal experiences playing **** geared robes that die to 4 hits from an archer, because subpar-geared archers die from other classes in 1 hit. How can you possibly say that your wizard dies before you can react when 4 hits from an archer takes more than 3 seconds even with Demon QS proc? So wizards are supposedly easier to spot now because they channel before hitting you as opposed to hit you for 3s straight right?

You see this update and think it's OK solely because the archer class isn't getting anything great. Well you can tell us how OK it is for you when clerics shoot metal at the rate archers auto attack, or when wizards hit you for base + 800% wep attack + 9k damage, or when sins hit you for a 12x base damage zerk crit, etc etc etc. How does that sound?

For anyone that says why would I tele stun to someone with an antistun, I mean do you even think? Telestun is an instant channel skill meaning you can use it and hit an antistun that wasn't there a second ago. Seems like you people aren't thinking again.

Who said I get one shot? Even r9rr +12 archer's don't one shot me. Ofc you have no idea what kind of gear I have, so you can smd with the assumptions. I also play an archer, I don't think they need a buff. Guess what!? The other physical classes are all MELEE! :O You mean to tell me they don't get 30m range! Nope.

You seem to have something personal against me. Wanna talk about it with a therapist?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'd like to know where your archer experience comes from. All of this just sounds like someone who's read the skill set and has theoretically conjured up situational tactical advantages. Purge is a low proc rate - this is a fact.
I'd rather have your insta cast anti stun.
I don't hit targets at close range because usually im stunned or paralysed with leaps on cool down and have to use my genie to get away which is the point Im trying to make here which you obviously missed.
Wizards clerics and mystics are some of the tankiest classes out there because of their self buffs. Have you ever tried to kill any endgame mystic/wizard/cleric that is endgame on your BM? Since BM's are probably the worst 1v1 class after archers I'm willing to bed you'll die, but probably slower than an archer with your gear would
Staying far enough away? No such thing when closing the gap takes less than a second.
"If"?
Again more situational things which rarely happen.
Yes, if an archer purges uses blood vow and manages to land an aim low a few auto attacks and a stun and more auto attacks and another aim low and more auto attacks that end game arcane target is POSSIBLY going to die assuming the other persons apoth and genie are on cool down.
This chances of all that happening an archers way at max range is less than 1%.
The chances of even killing that target is less.

Uh... really... you would rather have the anti stun that costs a whole spark, with a 60 second cooldown, and 15 seconds of activation time? <--- That is all will of Bodhisattva does... save the instant channel. (Yes there is the speed boost but still to me your WOG is far superior)

The damage reduction, very slight speed increase, with a 30 second cooldown, 15 seconds of activation, same spark costs.. to me that outweighs the fact that it has a longer channel/cast time or at least it certainly does imho, bhavy.

That is so all I am commenting on.

We all are on different side of the line... as that old saying goes the grass is always greener on the other side. (We all have our benefits, and some really do have it easier than others in more ways than one... sometimes it just depends on who is behind the character and their mentality... be it a melee mentality or a range/mage mentality.)

EDIT: If it's so superior to you get the dev's to change skills between the classes, i'll GLADLY accept your WOG over our anti stun skill. b:avoid

EDIT: Also I agree with Burnout about buffs doing WAY too much. Especially for physical defense/on the physical side of things. (A bit hard to truly measure it but still... some casters have ridiculous physical defense, and melee's already hit way lower than any range/mage class... oh and they have to get up close... so aye imho buffs do way too much.)

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Uh... really... you would rather have the anti stun that costs a whole spark, with a 60 second cooldown, and 15 seconds of activation time? <--- That is all will of Bodhisattva does... save the instant channel. (Yes there is the speed boost but still to me your WOG is far superior)

The damage reduction, very slight speed increase, with a 30 second cooldown, 15 seconds of activation, same spark costs.. to me that outweighs the fact that it has a longer channel/cast time or at least it certainly does imho, bhavy.

(I have a 92 BM Made it because I wanted some fun in the game again, but I grew to love the class so I took my time leveling it)

I would much prefer the instant anti-stun the BM has over the Wings of Grace.

The problem about Wings of Grace is it has a channel time that leaves you open to EVERYTHING. I've 2+/- shot archers in the middle of channeling this skill in the hope they'd survive my barb.

If the archer cannot move and kite (super important) to cast an anti-stun, then the skills needs to at least have no channeling, with the same cast time (immunity yay).

On the other hand, the archers could use an instant anti-stun with no channel, and no cast, and no immunity.

Either works.

The channeling time sucks so much because it's impossible to time the immunity to counter any skills, and difficult to time the anti-stun to counter any skills.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

(I have a 92 BM Made it because I wanted some fun in the game again, but I grew to love the class so I took my time leveling it)

I would much prefer the instant anti-stun the BM has over the Wings of Grace.

The problem about Wings of Grace is it has a channel time that leaves you open to EVERYTHING. I've 2+/- shot archers in the middle of channeling this skill in the hope they'd survive my barb.

If the archer cannot move and kite (super important) to cast an anti-stun, then the skills needs to at least have no channeling, with the same cast time (immunity yay).

On the other hand, the archers could use an instant anti-stun with no channel, and no cast, and no immunity.

Either works.

The channeling time sucks so much because it's impossible to time the immunity to counter any skills, and difficult to time the anti-stun to counter any skills.

Aye it has it's weakness, but still, if they can pull it off, I find it to be quite superior than will of Bodhisattva.

EDIT: I can see bm's being able to pull off the WOG a lot easier than archers... DEPENDING on when/where the archer uses it.

I guess from what you said though... (which I should have realized that as well)... you are indeed right it is super important for them to be able to kite, (assuming they are in a situation where they need to get out of... but if they're in that often... they're doing something wrong imho) but bm's on the other hand... well... I am going to cut myself off there, it doesn't belong here.) Really none of this does.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

This kind of reminds me of the Demon Troll days, except the posts are much longer.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

The amount of times I would get interrupted/stunned/slept/sealed in the middle of casting WoG is a joke. It's one of the main reasons I switched to a faith genie, for when hitting that WoG is the difference between life/death. Genie dead. Winged shell is pretty much an emergency def charm. I think the only time I'd consider using it is if a barb is about to arma or a seeker has set up a nice combo - if I see it/have time to react/arent stunned etc.

Lol @ how this thread has derailed to omg archers op qq..

Burnout - Harshlands

To be fair, the changes are mostly already set in stone (I've never seen those preview posts to be too far off from the actual changes) so the fact that everyone is arguing about this is moot, since devs won't even listen to it.

Besides, apparently the devs agree that archers don't need a buff in terms of damage, but I guess we'll see when the update reaches us.