Another update where we got pooed on...

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seekers can cast faster than archers can auto attack. They are quite capable of spitting out several spells quickly at a time from range. How about you consider for a second the fact that quicken with auto attacks hit like **** on endgame seekers, and tell us how this "DPH vs DPS" comparison goes? Because 1k-3k DPS isn't very good for killing people with 30k hp last time I checked.

On the other hand, archer metal skills both do less damage and come out slower. Inb4 seeker gets Heart of Steel too and you're ****ed.

I have to wonder about what kind of seekers you've been fighting, because they are quite easily the better archer killers from the class pool.

@Above:

It sucks because it's slow. In the 1.6s of cast + channel, people will get in your face and forget about your stupid DoT. The 8s cooldown also does not allow for significant stacking even if you're cheesing DoTs from the air.

Plus it has no chance to purge, so you're wasting your CC time casting this, as anything fully buffed endgame will likely not die 1v1 to an archer. We don't get tens of seconds of people sitting still to cast dots like some classes do.

Like I said, this sort of skill can only be widely usable if it can be cast faster so you can stack while you run. Add shorter cooldown and it might actually be usable in drawn-out 1v1s.

About that Psychic usage, Actually no, that's stupid. You could have been using that 2 updates ago, that's no excuse to rehash DoT damage over 2 updates.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@wbn: Regarding my damage. First, I don't have access to as many low-cost magical defense debuffs, so we'd have to assume, say, 35% magic and extreme poison. Second, my crit rate is 40% lower than an archer. Third, an archer can fire off 4 auto attacks in three seconds, whereas I'd be lucky to get 2 spells off in that same time period. Here is the truth about the difference in damage. If I and an archer triple spark from full hp and attack each other, I will die before the archer every single time if neither of us defends against the damage, other than the usual assortment of defense charms (each of our first two hits would be half damage). The only question is, do I die in ~5-6 seconds (no purge) or approximately 1-3 seconds (purged)? I just don't have the crit rate to get lucky enough, often enough, to be crit charm-bypassing people near half hp, which is the one scenario where dph beats out dps. Like so many classes, I rely on debuffs to kill people. Archers don't need to rely so heavily on debuffs, when their weapon is the deadliest debuffer of them all.

When an archer already has the best ranged dps, and the deadliest ranged debuff, what sound-minded dev would want to buff them to also be more unkillable? If you want more defense, than be willing to give up some of your offense I say. BTW, the new skill 'frost cone' appears to be a support skill. I'm sorry if you as archers aren't used to the idea of being support, as opposed to being supreme damage dealer. However, from what I read, this attack acts like a barrage (it stays up till target moves too far away or dies), and slows people by a LOT, and can also immobilize AND amp those targets. I dunno about you, but I am definitely seeing major applications of this skill in TW, Nation Wars (fire this off into the flag-digging pit), and group pvp. Barrage is nice, but it is easy to escape from. Combine this skill with barrage though, and you have a hella nasty mess. One skill locks you in place and amps you, while the other creams the snot out of you... all from 30 meters away. Ouch.

The 200% dot on vicious arrow is important as well. It means that it'll take into account attack levels now. My thunderball (400% weapon damage dot) does a significant amount of damage. To put that into perspective, the 400% dot does as much combined damage as the initial damage of the hit (which is base damage). So something like 4000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1000. I often use it to tick people's charms when they are near half hp, but still slept; quite deadly under the right circumstances. Not to mention, it is a good thing to have a skill which does a not-too-deadly debuff. Consider when you fight a psychic, you have to hit them when they have soul of retaliation in. Do you use a stun? You'll stun yourself. Do you use an auto attack or non-debuffing attack? You could purge yourself (saw this happen as recently as last week). Or maybe you use vicious arrow instead, knowing you won't purge yourself, and that the vicious arrow dot on yourself when you are at max hp is something you can live with.

And really, what is there to complain about when they increase your melee skill from 4k to 8k, no scratch that, 11k! Geez louise. People who love to hug melee range of archers (because obviously the smart pvpers do) are gonna pay more dearly for their efforts.


I state my case again: archer's have no right to complain.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I know you/others may not want to hear/accept this, but due to the facts that archers do indeed do just fine most of the time in mass pvp/pvp could be the very reason why archers aren't getting interesting updates to their skills.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Compare WoG to purify spell and it's ****. You spend 1 full spark on something that every caster gets for free. The 1s channel make is very hard to break a stun lock. Really that long channel ruins a lot of its defensive utility, isn't every other anti-stun in the game instant channel?

Also you're wrong about the duration. It only lasts 12s since it's 3 seconds shorter than a triple spark. Unlike purify spell you have to cast it preemptively before the stun so that means its effective duration is actually shorter relative to purify spell. Finally with morai skills other classes got a lot more counters to anti-stun like Bewitch, Disarm, Reel In, etc.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Gimme a passive buff that gives 50% chance to avoid sleep/silence gtfo clerics and psys! b:dirty

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heartz I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you are talking about group pvp Nw/Tw where you can qs fap arrows in people faces with assists heals etc.

Coz I sure as hell know you can't be talking about 1v1 self buffed. The Relic Group pvp vid I posted shows at 23:30 Kalopsia hitting me 14k GoF non crit, with what I assume was a sac slash qpq combo with EP, bit rusty on seeker skills someone identify the skill after qpq pls. Thats me fully buffed. The same hit unbuffed would maybe have one shot me, no offence but would no doubt one shot you, as you have iirc 40 less def lvls. So **** damage.. really..

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

What I meant by your own HF was a damage amp, it's...25%? Which is still a fair deal. Long cooldown, big deal, I'd still take that on any other class.

Is it better than nothing? Well, yes. But is it overpowered? Far from it.

1 second channeling is too long? I'll trade WoG for my Will of Bodhisattva any day without a thought.

No real complaints about WoG, tbh, but it really is our only semi-viable defensive option aside from leaps. We need more than just one skill that costs a spark and has 1s channel, especially since we have no decent passive defenses either.

Sins still get stunned when Focused Mind hits for one, and they still take damage when TP evades status, meaning it's only a partial advantage, whereas if I miss an archer with Drake Bash, I waste a spark, you take no damage, you don't get stunned, and I have to wait on its cooldown.

Ignoring, of course, the fact that you still have 100% hit skills, you have control skills that do no damage (=> don't count evasion), and all magic class skills ignore evasion entirely. Sins suffer none of these disadvantages... AND they also get the "benefit" of normal evasion on top of their buffs.

It's not about closing the gap, it's about staying far enough away that you can get the first jump on the target.

And once you do hit them, they can close the gap in 2 seconds. Obviously this is not the case if they're stunned/immobilized, but then we can count that advantage for everyone else too. Range is nice, but it's not everything.

Agreed on Apoth, but archers still have pretty good antistun chains.

Antistun "chains"? We have one reliable antistun: WoG, 15s antistun on a 30s cooldown, for 1 spark. Our other antistun is 8s duration, costing a spark, with a 3 minute cooldown. Hardly something you could consider reliably "chain"-able.

Not moving in stealth isn't a big deal when the enemy doesn't know you're there, it holds just as much surprise as a sin, it's all about strategical placement.

Which is great, if you know exactly where the enemy will be... and they don't know you're even in the area... and you're already in a position ahead of them... and you have the luxury of being able to sit there and wait on them. This applies pretty much exclusively to CTF NW and nowhere else.

Wizard teleport is OP. BM leap is only forward/backward. We have to change position to leap to you, plus it's 15 meters. Reel in is luck based, we're forced to Reckless Rush, put it on CD and hope to god you haven't started channeling WoP because if you did it won't land and you can run away. after putting our best distance closer on cooldown. Sin leaps? Well, they are built for 1v1, so it makes sense for them.

I don't have GoF on my t3 axes, that would be hax. I get purged by archers every single time I run into one. Without fail. "Not a good enough proc rate."

And archers don't have purge proc on their t3 bows. What's your point there?

I fight archers more than any other class in NW, and I hardly ever get purged by them. Once, maybe twice per NW. More often in TW, but that's because I'm getting hit by 3 of them at once. Spirit Blackhole proc rate is considerably lower than GoF's - ~7.5% vs ~20% iirc (numbers might not be exact).

Combine with the other weaknesses of our proc - namely, being completely useless against already-purged targets and having no effect when using many skills - none of which are shared with GoF, Spirit Blackhole is nowhere near as useful as GoF.

Fair enough on the physical damage, but why are you using physical attacks on close range targets anyway?

Well, you shouldn't be. But you wouldn't be because it does half damage. If someone gets up in melee range, we're pretty much required to move because we won't do **** for damage until we do.

I admit, I know absolutely nothing about archer genies...

Then why are you making comments about them in your arguments?

Sins do not get a new stun, it's a fusion of Headhunt and Raving Slash, so they lose their previous headhunt. BM and barb have been over due for damage increases for years. You archers stay alive a **** ton longer than any wiz, cleric, or mystic that I have ever run into.

Any archer in a equally-geared endgame fight that is kiting enough to avoid major risk of death is going to have a hard time putting up any significant numbers at all in a 1v1, because every other class can get up in our face in a few seconds and we have to move away again. This has always been the case. So, can we survive a long time? Sure. Will it do us any good? Not really.

We have a better ability to put up better numbers in group PvP, of course, because we can hide behind other people and shoot, and run away when things get hairy... but so can every other ranged class, and as has been mentioned many times, they all have better defenses than archers.