Another update where we got pooed on...

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

If we're talking archers vs sin, well, you're just gonna have to trust me when I say, try playing a melee class in a world filled with purify proc and anti-aps mechanics, then come back and tell me how hard it is to be an archer with 35+ m range.

Meh, its not really problematic in 1 vs 1. Sins have so many runs, jumps and stealths you can stay close to most people. Only person I faced who kited too well for me to really stay on them with my sin was archer who was pretty godlike in kiting.

Given enough DPH purify becomes bearable as you dont need too many hits to drop caster and the chance said caster procs purify isnt too high. In mass PvP with gear gap of this game its abso-freaking-lutely the most broken proc of all time, period.

I do find putting sins and archer on same paragraph like that bit amusing, no sin of similar gear and skill will really ever lose to an archer in 1vs1, class balance between said classes is pretty much all for sins.

The reason why ppl QQ bout archer is the R9T3+12 Deity/JoSD. Archer, to my experience, is the by far the most geared class on average. The class really isnt OP, its the players with OP gear. Anything with this gear gap is OP when your at the high end of it. You better be glad its archers, not pretty much anything else. I myself would throw Veno, wizard and seeker as the most broken classes of next expansion. Havent really seen too many mystics but god do the geared ones be hard to drop.

Ps. Slivah, while purge on bow has range, GoF has bout twice the proc rate of spirit blackhole. My guess would be bow has worst proc rate of R9 weps.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Ps. Slivah, while purge on bow has range, GoF has bout twice the proc rate of spirit blackhole. My guess would be bow has worst proc rate of R9 weps.

IMO it's fair, because GoF is double damage on a single attack, while once purge hits, it's basically double damage + 35% reduced hp on ALL attacks (for AA) until they find another cleric/barb.

Amusingly, when I went up against R9 dag sins vs Nirv 3rd cast w/ netherworlds, I noticed the nirv sin was killing me faster on average, back when APS was still viable. It's probably due to the higher APS on the nirv sin, but GoF is not really as good a proc as many people make it out to be. Even on an archer/sin, the rate of zerk crits was less than 10% on average, and only the sins' high aps made the zerk crits "viable".

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Give me the ability to purge and you all's ability to hit harder, regardless if you are facing a melee or a caster, once you all purge, its pretty much GG for your opponents. (At least it is imho)

Do you realize you already have the ability to purge? The BM R8r Axe can already get spirit blackhole on it. That's right the "archer proc" is already available to most melee classes. If Spirit Blackhole was really that great you'd see more BMs and Barbs with those axes but in reality GoF is better in a wider range of circumstances so not many even bother.

Sprit Blackhole doesn't work with most skills though unlike GoF which works with everything. It also has no utility against purged targets and can't purge a lot of the more broken self buffs like tidal protection / soul of silence.

Don't forget that now with Spirit of Defense pots from Abba / Seat it is really easy to get fully buffed again after a purge.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Do you realize you already have the ability to purge? The BM R8r Axe can already get spirit blackhole on it. That's right the "archer proc" is already available to most melee classes. If Spirit Blackhole was really that great you'd see more BMs and Barbs with those axes but in reality GoF is better in a wider range of circumstances so not many even bother.

Sprit Blackhole doesn't work with most skills though unlike GoF which works with everything. It also has no utility against purged targets and can't purge a lot of the more broken self buffs like tidal protection / soul of silence.

Don't forget that now with Spirit of Defense pots from Abba / Seat it is really easy to get fully buffed again after a purge.

Oi, aye that I do... albeit it did slip my mind a bit, but still the range of the weapon makes it far more useful imho than any of the purges a melee can potentially get. (the only one that has either purge guarenteed as a stat on it is the tt99 pole... which is so laughable as a potential end game weapon. EDIT: So yea... the purge + <-- keyword/letter... + your range + superior damage = so much better than what a melee has to go through in order to even land a SINGLE hit on someone, and even if the melee manages to survive they're still being ganked by multiple ppl until they start killing a few... which can be extremely difficult even with the GOF proc... I do get why you archers are complaining it isn't fun relying on a proc to kill others... but still imho Spirit Blackhole is superior to the GOF proc of melees.)

Again being able to attack at range + the superior damage makes an archer purge far more useful than anything a melee has... as it can work at a distance, giving you all plenty of time for it to potentialy proc, whereas a melee HAS to get up close, and survive long enough for it to activate... which quite simply wont happen that often at all... unless the melee has epic gear + prepared to the teeth with apo... whereas the purge can... (yes here it is again) happen anywhere anytime. Aka it happens at a distance which is extremely useful.

Also to my knowledge that apo... would swallow up any potential of using chi apo/any other useful apo that people are using these days... that is an indirect help to the archer... and while it does make your opponent harder to kill... you could still reproc, and layeth the smackdown far easier than a melee. (Just think of how useful the proc CAN be... your sitting at distance, it procs, they use apo, still can't find you, it reprocs and boom your laying the smackdown on them again. While they aren't likely to just sit there... it does has it usefulness.)

I am not even sure why I am defending the proc/arguing it's effectiveness... I am so not trying to get it removed or anything like that. /o\

(For the record: EVERY proc has it's usefulness... but when you throw in a classes natural advantages some proc's do become far more useful than the other procs.... and while the purify proc does indeed has it weaknesses... I still find it extremely oped for any game like this.)

EDIT: ^ What burnout said... maybe his is less confusing than my rambling. :P

Maybe it's because people read up on the new archer skills and realize the class is still not much more interesting. (the ice **** seems interesting, if not still *** for 2 spark cost)

Maybe it is getting old seeing stuff like vicious arrow get another token adjust to dot damage. They have been rehashing the dot damage in two updates now, and in the end, it's still not a lot of dot damage.

How about at least making Demon Serrated heal more than a regen pill? It's stated to heal 100 per tick last update but it doesn't even do that, despite the fact that a heal of 500 over 5 freaking seconds is still a piece of ****.

No one is asking for super high damage, just interesting implementations. For example: if they really want to run with the bleed idea, then make the bleed arrows have lower channel times and chance to purge so it's practical to cast and kite.

Instead no lets just change the dot damage around a bit and call it an update.

They do this with every class to differing extents as well, but this isn't the "every class" subforum.

Melees become super dangerous again, if, and ONLY if, they spend a LOT more coin on their armor than a ranged class needs to. Slivaf is quite right in this respect; it is a lot cheaper to be deadly on class that has the best range and the purge proc. With kiting you can hop around in basic +10, **** shards r9rr and still do quite well. For a melee to find similar success in group pvp, the melee needs to probably be +10 armor and very nicely sharded, or +12 with random shards.

It is also the reason why so few clerics gear up. Clerics can function in many of their healing roles without really needing to sop up damage, as long as they kite well (think TW or PVE). But be it 1vs1 or group activity, barbs and bms have no choice but to get right in the thick of things.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

So you were purged, debuffed, and a triple sparked archer did a measly 20k crit? That seems to me like **** damage for a ridiculously ideal setup.

Your other point about archers doing better at low armor levels becomes completely reversed at high armor levels. +12 JoSD / Deity archer can't really beat similarly geared classes except maybe mystic and psychic.

Really I'm beginning to question the gear levels of other servers since sanc pvp is dominated by very well geared players of all classes. At high gear levels is where archer problems really become evident.

If that was an auto attack, thats ridiculously good damage.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If that was an auto attack, thats ridiculously good damage.

the thing is archer can hit 7k damage on auto attack. range, crit and damage like sin. i am not good on arguing in this but based on K/D ratio and pvp ranking, many of them in rank are archer. i am not good in argument about this but that is indicate that archer is OP b:surrender

Here I was doing so good refraining from posting again in this topic... letting the archers resume their... "QQ" about the lack of an update that appeases them. (Which it is quite reasonable to be upset... besides how many times has myself or other bms QQ about their lack of anything viable for MASS pvp. MASS MASS MASS MASS MASS MASS.... did you see that people... MASS Pvp. I can't recall of a single instance on these forums where I claimed bms were seriously lacking in 1 on 1 fights where they have equal gear, and it is true that bms can be decent if they prepare correctly... but they would have to do so far more than any other class, and yet they would still have numerous disadvantages compared to EVERY single other class in game. I get that people don't want to admit that... but seriously range/mage is far superior to melee in every single way... the extra hp melees get is so damn near useless when they have to get near others, still can't kill them, and have to often deal with multiple attacks from others. (Yes casters/rangers have to deal with it from time to time, but they don't have to all the time... which I find to be quite relaxing.... as in not having to deal with multiple attacks all the time... at least on a barb you can hid ebehind shields and do alright... and while they aren't anywhere near as useful as the barb's shields, sins have a few of their own that allow them to stay in the fight in mass pvp. )

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maybe it's because people read up on the new archer skills and realize the class is still not much more interesting. (the ice **** seems interesting, if not still *** for 2 spark cost)

Maybe it is getting old seeing stuff like vicious arrow get another token adjust to dot damage. They have been rehashing the dot damage in two updates now, and in the end, it's still not a lot of dot damage.

How about at least making Demon Serrated heal more than a regen pill? It's stated to heal 100 per tick last update but it doesn't even do that, despite the fact that a heal of 500 over 5 freaking seconds is still a piece of ****.

No one is asking for super high damage, just interesting implementations. For example: if they really want to run with the bleed idea, then make the bleed arrows have lower channel times and chance to purge so it's practical to cast and kite.

Instead no lets just change the dot damage around a bit and call it an update.

They do this with every class to differing extents as well, but this isn't the "every class" subforum.

I know you/others may not want to hear/accept this, but due to the facts that archers do indeed do just fine most of the time in mass pvp/pvp could be the very reason why archers aren't getting interesting updates to their skills.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you're referring to me technically I purged you and hit you twice for 6.7ish, but I'm full JoSD so someone like RedMouse or Heartz who are full deity would probably hit you alot more. Also if you are counting the squad I was in on Friday as one of the OP ones, me and Steel actually dc'ed so went with Adi so was only three of us, as for Dark nation I think the only OP squad we came across was the one we dc'ed from -.-

Also this ain 2012 yo. IG dig backfires. You cant always expect a opposing nation of Nab nation of Aps to trolololol spank your purify proc all the way to the win.

On topic. Slivaf. Dude. -.- Talk to slewdem. With equal gear he kicks my ***. He can give you tips. No offence but most of your post are tl:dr and devoid of any real points.

Asterelle, you're wasting your time. There are people that think at endgame archers are OP. (Lol) They wont change their minds.

Do me a favor and show me a single post of mine where I actually truly said that bms need help in 1 on 1, equal geared fights. (I think you would be unable to find such post of mine.).. If I did... then link me so i can fix it... because yea... I agree one on one bms can be quite useful in the pvp world... but they sure as hell can't be in mass pvp... (EDIT: most of the time they can't anyways not without insanely epic gear) not when they don't have any 'natural' advantage that pretty much allows them to get near others/and potentially kill them. Purify proc ruined that for bms, not to mention their REAL lackluster damage.

Aeliah got the point I was trying to make, and so did Burnout.

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I do not deny my posts are often long, and they may sometimes be 'devoid' of a real point... but really if you can read between the lines, you can see what I am hinting at. If you don't agree with what I am hinting at that is fine... but seriously don't call out my intelligence. (I know I am not the smartest/most articulate person on this forum... but really if you were able to pick up on what I hinted at... who knows what could come of it... perhaps you could change my mind.)

EDIT 2: In other words, despite the length of my posts, and the hard to see points I make, they are there. (Some of which I am sure you/others disagree with... which is fine, but still... just because my posts are long, and seem 'devoid' of a point.... doesn't mean there isn't a point there.)

EDIT: Meh... yea this bm talk is annoying... this is the archer skill update discussion thread not bm's are weak in mass pvp thread. :$
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Anyways... way too off topic... get back to discussing the archers new skills plox. xD

EDIT: In other words I am sorry it turned into this... I have my reasons for chiming in... but I am not going to delve into them anymore.

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That arrow inferno actually sounds quite awesome... at least imho it does.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ah no Dark wasn't referring to you at all hehe. i was comparing Merangelus damage on purge > auto attacks to Heartz' dmg on purge > auto attacks. The 20k was an auto attack, and I didn't have veno amp or hf in... just tangling mire and extreme poison and possibly another physical defense debuff, maybe devour, when purged. I was like o.o' when it happened in TW. Without any of those debuffs, Heartz triple spark does 10-11ks when purged, auto attacks.

So you got hit for 20k crit purged and debuffed to the bone (-50% devour, -15% mire(no str genie) +20% damage from EP). Why dont you set up the same premise and see how hard you hit triple sparked? Well no need really, everybody knows you will land far higher hit.

/inb4somebodytakesthisseriously

Honestly, There is absolutely no class full +12 jades, all NW gear that i cannot kill - ok those pesky barbs with 50-53k hp and 127 def lvls. those i cant lol... People saying it's too hard kill josd targets as archer isnt decked out enough, or just likes to complain >_<

Sure hits arent gonne be 10k's, but 5k crits is enough cos of crit rate being like 60% and aps. the only class im "afraid" of is Clerics full decked out - because of absorb array.
I'd love more defensive/fancy skills, but most of the time auto atatcks cuts it anyway lol.

full +12 seeker, with 30k hp buff, impossible kill buffed, but which class can do that easy anyway, except wiz with fire combo maybe.
besides seekers are **** dmg, as long you remmeber to use heart of steel at the right time >_< so good chance you're gonna live, unless you mess up and gets hits zerk crit metal.. chances are you lvie to seeker is purged lol.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

the thing is archer can hit 7k damage on auto attack. range, crit and damage like sin. i am not good on arguing in this but based on K/D ratio and pvp ranking, many of them in rank are archer. i am not good in argument about this but that is indicate that archer is OP b:surrender

Archer's damage ranges are 2.5-3x higher than that of a sin due to weapon damage scaling.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heartz I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you are talking about group pvp Nw/Tw where you can qs fap arrows in people faces with assists heals etc.

Coz I sure as hell know you can't be talking about 1v1 self buffed. The Relic Group pvp vid I posted shows at 23:30 Kalopsia hitting me 14k GoF non crit, with what I assume was a sac slash qpq combo with EP, bit rusty on seeker skills someone identify the skill after qpq pls. Thats me fully buffed. The same hit unbuffed would maybe have one shot me, no offence but would no doubt one shot you, as you have iirc 40 less def lvls. So **** damage.. really..

I think you're confusing DPH with DPS. Yes, seekers can hit extremely high with GoF procs and qpq combos, but they can only do it once every 30 seconds, and even then the chance to get double damage is only around 50%. Even then it didn't one shot you, and there are multiple ways to counter it (seekers are extremely easy to cc and kite). Once you survive their burst, they're basically SOL for 30 sec or more.

Archers w r9rr easily have 50% crit rates, while also hitting for 3.5-7k every 1-1.2 sec. How long does it take seeker to set up a 14k hit? (which, remember, only happens 50% of the time). It takes them at least 4-5 seconds. How much damage can you put out just afk-auto attacking someone for 5 seconds, especially once purge hits? Easily over 22k damage on a purged arcane, and with the right crits, over 30k. And you can do this over and over again, with no cooldown times or setup required.

It's really noticeable when a wiz or Seeker one-shots someone of equal gear, but in reality that doesn't happen as often as you would think. And if we fail the one-shot/charm bypass, it usually takes quite awhile before we even have the chance to do it again, typically 30s-1 min, due to either chi or cooldown times.