Another update where we got pooed on...

devs dont want us to have usefull skills, we have our auto attack yay lol.

I want somethign to buff defence at the very least soon lol, other claasses get cranked up dmg skills lol.

Yay nothing note worthy or good for that matter. Agreeing with Heartz, definitely want a defense buff or even a heal skill. Every other class has some sort of healing available to them, and what do archer's get to have? Charm ticks, all day er'ryday.

1) Frost scattering is a merger of Deadly shot + Frost Arrow
It is a 2 spark skill that mentions something like a fan aoe (5m)?
It slows by 80% and has a 20% chance to do that Ice Prison wizard debuff for 1.5 seconds. The 30s cooldown was a typo. It's a 3 minute cooldown with a long 1.0 channel / 2.5s cast.

It seems like **** to me. 20% chance for a 1.5s debuff is negligible. Who wants to spend 2 sparks for an 80% slow? Slow is worthless (just look at stormrage).

Given that it takes 3.5s to cast this skill it slows you down more than it would slow down an opponent.

2) The vicious arrow damage upgrade is about 10 times too small for it to be useful as a DOT. 600% weapon damage with no chance to crit, no chance to purge, spread out over 9s. Why would anyone want that instead of just casting 2 arrows both of which can crit / purge? My base damage is already at around 700% weapon damage so factoring in crit every arrow already has an average 1150%. Any pure damage skill that can't compete with the damage of 2 arrows is basically worthless.

3) The wingspan upgrade is an added 2m range. It's the merger of wingspan and winged pledge so you'll probably lose winged pledge when you learn it. The extra range is not significant and you end up having fewer melee options with the loss of pledge (if it replaces both).

4) The one you don't have mentioned is the Winged Shell upgrade which does nothing but add 500 more damage absorbed to both versions. Of course this doesn't matter at all since winged shell will still disappear in 1 hit at that amount. Why is this skill not based on max hp? 1.5k HP hasn't been significant since like level 50. Spending 45 chi for a defense charm is ****.

There is no new high level gear either. This expansion is pretty much fail.

Archers been getting the nurf ever since R9 recast. Learn to like it. b:shutup

Bad news is, if we lose frost arrow, that's a serious blow to sage archer since it's a heavy armor killer.

"upgrade" is an interesting word choice.

^ due to gear difference and most players being noob

idk why thread has "another" in title morai leaps are amazing. Granted rest of "newer" archer skill seem pretty meh =/

more interested in reincarnation and how many additional stat points (?). 70-80% base crit?

I still don't see it. I've got some of the best gear its possible to have (about 10% from a maxed build I'd say) and archer is still the only class that can kill me before I can react in group situations. Seekers and wizards can *sorta* but they telegraph what they are going to do with debuffs. My window of reaction time may be small but at least it exists. When the deity archer I fight against gets that purge off, it all comes back down to luck: was I unlucky enough to get purged at half hp and then have 2 crits land on me in a row? I'm dead, pretty simple. The damage from the hits which follow the purge land at the same time as I see the purge animation (purge animation lags way behind the actual damage).

Oh, speaking of archer luck. Purge? Granted, thats luck... wait... spirit blackhole doesn't really require much of that. Multiple purges I'd say needs luck. Crit? Hell, that ain't luck anymore, archers crit more often than they don't nowadays. It isn't even a matter of 'getting that crit', its a matter of whether the archer gets 3 crits in a row, or 7. I have on video 10 crits in a row from an archer.

If an archer can kill me before I can react, just consider *everybody else* out there, in the arcane gear set. They are even more hooped when archers get randomly *lucky*. Sure a skilled r9rr like myself can have some fun beating up archers in 1vs1 or 1vs2, but in mass group situations I still die without too much difficulty to an archer purge/dps and a little bit of debuff.

An archer's dps is so good that if I try going hit for hit against an archer at my gear level without heals, the archer will kill me before I kill him every time. Thats the sort of dps archers have access to, the sort of dps that nullifies defense charms (magic defense charms still work pretty good for them though). It is why dps sins were so strong back in the day. When offense is strong enough, it is stronger than any defense. Modern archers dish out so much dmg, from so far away, that they can overwhelm the defenses of other classes very quickly.

So when an archer complains about lack of a defensive buff or lack of a heal, I just have to shake my head. For every feature your class lacks, you have 1-2 other features that more than make up for it. I get heals, you get tons of mobility and anti-stun. I get purify proc, you get purge. I've got lots of defensive options, you have tons of offensive options.

Besides... I kinda feel some hypocrisy here. Aren't you one of those archers who keeps telling me you only use a fraction of your skillset anyways? Why on earth should you be concerned with whether archer's get new skills or not then, hmmm? According to you all you need is stunning arrow and quickshot -.-;

@above, 0.5s chan 0.5s cast on Wingspan, 1s cd. Watch melee huggers QQ

If the ice **** is a ranged zhen, it could be decent set-up for someone else to Barrage/combo. Is the amp really 130%? Would be perfect to ice a group while someone else barrage the group.

On the other hand, if they could just make Stormrage AOE...

I would be fine with an archer defense buff if they nerfed archer firepower a bit. They already have a 3-sec pseudo AD on a 30s cooldown, which also gives them CC immunity for 15 out of every 30s, that makes them deceptively hard to take down, as well as the ability to triple spark at any time. Either that, or make certain self buffs unpurgeable (they already did it with psys, why not other classes?).

The only reason archers are even feeling slightly bad right now is because of purify proc, but purge is so good when it happens that imo it's arguably an almost even tradeoff. Purify doesn't do **** when an archer procs a purge and kills some unlucky caster in 2 sec.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Compare WoG to purify spell and it's ****. You spend 1 full spark on something that every caster gets for free. The 1s channel make is very hard to break a stun lock. Really that long channel ruins a lot of its defensive utility, isn't every other anti-stun in the game instant channel?

Also you're wrong about the duration. It only lasts 12s since it's 3 seconds shorter than a triple spark. Unlike purify spell you have to cast it preemptively before the stun so that means its effective duration is actually shorter relative to purify spell. Finally with morai skills other classes got a lot more counters to anti-stun like Bewitch, Disarm, Reel In, etc.

Yep but this problem only surfaced with the purify proc. You're comparing a skill to a weapon effect, which will probably be nerfed at the next tier of gear or even taken out completely. Before this, the average caster died as fast or even faster than an archer because outside of genie and vacuities, they had no way to avoid stuns/roots/slows/etc. The problem is that purify proc is OP, not the balance between classes.

Also if you consider bewitch or disarm as an "anti-stun", then leap left/right are just as good. Consider before morai, the only skill wiz had to handle melee was DS and seal. You guys have two leaps, a 35m ranged stun (instead of a seal that locks you in animation for 2s), WoG, and Elven alacrity, as well as a way to fuel those skills via Awaken. (And no, our Earth Barrier does jack **** where it REALLY matters, which is in TW/NW, where a single purge = you instantly become squishier than archers).

I have been trying to ignore this thread... but meh someone (in this thread) awoke my inner... 'demon' so to speak. In other words... ROAR... I am going to have to point out a few things I find to be rather illogical. (not saying it's wrong... but imo it is flawed some of the things you all have been saying the past couple of posts.

Anyways replies in red.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Compare WoG to purify spell and it's ****. You spend 1 full spark on something that every caster gets for free. The 1s channel make is very hard to break a stun lock. Really that long channel ruins a lot of its defensive utility, isn't every other anti-stun in the game instant channel?

Compare ANY antistun in game with the pos purify proc on r93r caster weapons, and they ALL fall well short of the stupid insanity that is the purify proc. (aka OPED proc) Also WOG is imho one of the better 'anti stun' skills in game since it also gives you a damage reduction, that can be quite useful, oh and it also has one of the shortest 'anti-stun skill' (actually I think it is the shortest skill wise) cooldown's in game.

One thing I do agree with you on though is the long channel, but in it's defense it makes you immune to damage while casting it.

Also you're wrong about the duration. It only lasts 12s since it's 3 seconds shorter than a triple spark. Unlike purify spell you have to cast it preemptively before the stun so that means its effective duration is actually shorter relative to purify spell. Finally with morai skills other classes got a lot more counters to anti-stun like Bewitch, Disarm, Reel In, etc.

No argument there.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Yep but this problem only surfaced with the purify proc. You're comparing a skill to a weapon effect, which will probably be nerfed at the next tier of gear or even taken out completely. Before this, the average caster died as fast or even faster than an archer because outside of genie and vacuities, they had no way to avoid stuns/roots/slows/etc. The problem is that purify proc is OP, not the balance between classes.

Also if you consider bewitch or disarm as an "anti-stun", then leap left/right are just as good. Consider before morai, the only skill wiz had to handle melee was DS and seal. You guys have two leaps, a 35m ranged stun (instead of a seal that locks you in animation for 2s), WoG, and Elven alacrity, as well as a way to fuel those skills via Awaken. (And no, our Earth Barrier does jack **** where it REALLY matters, which is in TW/NW, where a single purge = you instantly become squishier than archers).

As if a casters range, (element of surprise attacks are SO ftw!/insanely useful) and superior damage wasn't 'useful' enough for them already? It almost single handedly ruined the whole effectiveness melee had once up close. It does too much.... way too much. (going to cut myself off there, as I/we don't ned to get into a debate about it again.... what was said in that epically long *** thread that has arguably been forgotten is all that could be said about that pos proc.)

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Some on Sanct might remember a +12 R9 JOSD barb getting one shot by a R93 seeker in a 1v1...granted one is R9 and other is R93, I don't remember one shotting +12 R9 barbs ever, even with R93.

I'd be fine with keeping this **** defense if we actually get higher spike potential.

Quit having these double standards, since when was archer damage considered high endgame? Compared to what? Mystics?

Compare it to melee's, and you'll see how much better archers have it... archers damage is/are far superior than that of a melee, and they may still very well be that even after the coming expansion... but yea... only time will truly tell that... as I don't have the advanced math skills/nor the will power to find out who will do more damage after that expansion comes out.

Also lets not forget what I read/seen in the nation wars forum I think... where a r93r psy started getting hit for 7k PER hit after they got purged by an archer. (That is imho where your all's true power lies.

In other words give me your all range ability, and ability to purge, and I would be happy on my bm. /o\... not really... but yea range + superior damage is so badass for mass pvp. (Especially when you can easily gank someone and kill them before they make your armor/defensive skills come into play.

In other news, I read up on the ice **** in Chinese. I see it as 5 waves (or rounds) rather than a zhen. It's unstated what the delay between each wave is, so I think it's cast during the 2.5s cast time. Does full damage to nearby targets as well as have chance to proc equipment. (ie: purge) It does not do base + 50% wep, I think it just does 50% base per wave.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I would be fine with an archer defense buff if they nerfed archer firepower a bit. They already have a 3-sec pseudo AD on a 30s cooldown, which also gives them CC immunity for 15 out of every 30s, that makes them deceptively hard to take down, as well as the ability to triple spark at any time. Either that, or make certain self buffs unpurgeable (they already did it with psys, why not other classes?).

The only reason archers are even feeling slightly bad right now is because of purify proc, but purge is so good when it happens that imo it's arguably an almost even tradeoff. Purify doesn't do **** when an archer procs a purge and kills some unlucky caster in 2 sec.

Pretty much this. Back to back purifies are also a lot less overpowered than back to back purges. Combo of death: purge > plume shell > purge > oh ****. Sometimes reacting fast isn't good enough. Another purge will negate whatever you did. You might even purify proc twice in as many hits, and if a purge comes in the third hit, it'll completely negate the purify procs. Purge trumps purify proc. There's a reason it doesn't proc as often as purify proc. Its already plenty strong enough as is.

Edit: can archer's do 7ks on fully jaded targets? Why yes they certainly can. Ordinary archers need a debuff. Our server's full deity just does normal auto attacks. Is a 7-8k enough to bypass my charm when my max hp is debuffed? Why, yes it is. In fact, it would be a special arcane indeed where this was not the case. On Friday's Nation Wars for Dreamweaver, the Dark nation I was in had a very severe disadvantage gear-wise to Flame and Frost (I estimate Flame had ~5 OP squads, to Dark had 2, and Frost had 4), so I got to fight some of our server's best geared archers for 2 hours straight. I can assure you archers of the r9rr + 12 variety can, without too much difficulty, be doing 7ks+ when they purge.

I also have to comment on Slivaf's post. Tell me Slivaf if you have fully spec'ed gear. No, don't bother answering, it was a rhetorical question: I know you don't have it. In fact, very few melees do. But if you actually did work to get it, you'll find a lot of your survivability issues will start to disappear. BMs are phenomenally tanky once they get gear of my calibre. With marrows bms can far exceed my hp, magic, and physical defense, all at once. With zerk crits your spike damage can exceed mine too (though my average damage will probably be slightly better). Instead of my heals, you have a ton of mobility, and many stuns, and anti-stun. The imbalance is more due to how r9rr is set up. As Zsw once said, to tank the +12 weapon damage, you need your gear to be +12 too. I understand that atm its is a discouraging prospect for you to run into a group of enemies who have +12 weapons while your gear is not likewise refined. However, take hope in this fact. Their damage is already topped out. However, your survivability still has huge improvements that can be made, so really, the situation can only get better for you.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

R93 has vast differences depending on refine and shards. Doubt jade robes get hit for 7k after purge. Most archers here would tell you a range of damage based on their own experience fighting Jade opponents, and lol 7k hits...

Moreover, what's wrong with hitting high numbers on robes after purge anyway? If archers can't kill unbuffed robes, then who are they supposed to kill? Have you ever hit an unbuffed archer?

I only meant that as more of an example, as the purge effect on r93r weapons can be extremely effective in taking down your opponents be they melee, or caster.

While I may have implied it, I didn't mean for it to come across that way Quil, there isn't anything wrong with it, but I do know archer can kill others (maybe not with extreme amounts of ease) regardless if they are melee or casters once purged.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wrong.
Zerk crit > all.

Give me the ability to purge and you all's ability to hit harder, regardless if you are facing a melee or a caster, once you all purge, its pretty much GG for your opponents. (At least it is imho)

Besides I would rather have the constant damage, range and the chance of purging others than the randomness of a zerk crit... especially when a melee's damage is quite lacking well before the zerk crit. (EDIT: I am not saying our zerk crit is completely useless... but still your all's range/superior damage + purge ability is insanely useful in mass pvp.)

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pretty much this. Back to back purifies are also a lot less overpowered than back to back purges. Combo of death: purge > plume shell > purge > oh ****. Sometimes reacting fast isn't good enough. Another purge will negate whatever you did. You might even purify proc twice in as many hits, and if a purge comes in the third hit, it'll completely negate the purify procs. Purge trumps purify proc. There's a reason it doesn't proc as often as purify proc. Its already plenty strong enough as is.

Edit: can archer's do 7ks on fully jaded targets? Why yes they certainly can. Ordinary archers need a debuff. Our server's full deity just does normal auto attacks. Is a 7-8k enough to bypass my charm when my max hp is debuffed? Why, yes it is. In fact, it would be a special arcane indeed where this was not the case. On Friday's Nation Wars for Dreamweaver, the Dark nation I was in had a very severe disadvantage gear-wise to Flame and Frost (I estimate Flame had ~5 OP squads, to Dark had 2, and Frost had 4), so I got to fight some of our server's best geared archers for 2 hours straight. I can assure you archers of the r9rr + 12 variety can, without too much difficulty, be doing 7ks+ when they purge.

I also have to comment on Slivaf's post. Tell me Slivaf if you have fully spec'ed gear. No, don't bother answering, it was a rhetorical question: I know you don't have it. In fact, very few melees do. But if you actually did work to get it, you'll find a lot of your survivability issues will start to disappear. BMs are phenomenally tanky once they get gear of my calibre. With marrows bms can far exceed my hp, magic, and physical defense, all at once. With zerk crits your spike damage can exceed mine too (though my average damage will probably be slightly better). Instead of my heals, you have a ton of mobility, and many stuns, and anti-stun. The imbalance is more due to how r9rr is set up. As Zsw once said, to tank the +12 weapon damage, you need your gear to be +12 too. I understand that atm its is a discouraging prospect for you to run into a group of enemies who have +12 weapons while your gear is not likewise refined. However, take hope in this fact. Their damage is already topped out. However, your survivability still has huge improvements that can be made, so really, the situation can only get better for you.

Your right I don't have extremely epic/"spec'ed" gear on my bm, but soon or later I will on my seeker. (As I have pointed out an insane amount of times, it would be foolish imho to spend extra cash on a bm when other classes would benefit from it as well... and they even have better built in skills that allow them to do WAY more for arguably WAY less.) Ergo why spend the cash on a bm, when others have it easier in the same gear/preparation.. the bms benefits from it so would the other classes.

I don't, nor have I ever disagreed with the fact that end game bms do become exremely tanky, but to throw out early end game as if it doesn't deserve to be mentioned is quite unfair... especially when it's far more relaxing on ANY other given class nigh regardless of their gear thanks to their 'natural' advantages... (barb's their shields, Sins their stealth, focused mind, deaden nerves, then there is every other class that has a way to be a 'ranged' person and avoid ganks from time to time... but bm's they are forced to deal with multiple people pretty much every single time they attack unless they are lucky enough to find a 'lone' wolf. Yes marrows are nice but they are quite the joke until the aformentioned end game gear.) the only class that comes close to it are the assassin class... another melee class... but they so have easier ways of getting near others. Again ranged + superior damage is far and away better than being on a melee regardless of gears.

Essentially I do get what your saying, and I do agree with the gist of it, but what I am questioning is the true 'usefulness' of it... especially when if I spent that cash that I spent on the bm... on another class all the other classes would benefit from the better gear + their 'natural' abilities... to me it makes more sense to spend money on any other class to +12 their gear than the bm... even if they do get 'better' stats than most other classes.)