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  • DeffyNature - ArchosaurDeffyNature - Archosaur Posts: 1,400 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Dayum, Morai server, that Joe person is just wow b:shutup .
    He reminds me of someone I haven't seen for ages on the forums *cough* Yulk *cough* .
    But no problems, Arch server has a few of those as well, sigh.
    Cloud eruption a must? No, not really, I'd rather invest in something that would suit my play style better. I can't say I understand why anyone would rage about people not using that particular genie skill. I can understand a demon wanting to substitute lack of chi skill with it, but even that is manageable with demon skills that give chi.
    The game was playable before genies were introduced, so all I can say, as Venus already said when trying to reason with blockheads, is that genies are a very personal choice, very few build a genie properly and use it in normal situations, so stop your elitist ****. Wanna be elitist? Go run without a genie, cause it was cool in the game's first release, and all the cool kids are doing it /sarcasm.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Not picking this post apart, but supporting and adding to it:
    While I have CE on my genie I raaaaarreeellly use it. Only BB need's chi for healings. And I'd rather have Holy Path to keep up with the pullers than be ready to BB when BB is not needed the majority of the time it is used.

    ^^ This. Gotta love reading criticisms by ignorant players putting others down -period!
    Big full pulls in WS? Okay you MIGHT need to BB in Metal especially. Pull of Fire? Don't' BB it's gonna get interrupted just AoE heal and while is in CD use other heals and skills to save the party.

    Read to 3 pages to finally find someone else that caught this. As much as people want to complain about others for using hypers: I have yet to see people learn simple things like putting RA up way back from the womb in spawn RB, wait for magic shell, and BKI before running in Aba, how AoE pulls work in metal, how a sin chasing ranged mobs around in RB is not only a waste of time but counter productive, how aoe stun mobs, or runners in metal stop stunning as much when melee range tanked, etc. It's not noobs: it's people refusing to learn or people just being *****. And closed minded idiots that criticize others. -period (use of word to show their sense of finality on the argument or showing off their own closed mindedness)
    I'm sorry but saying its a waste of a cleric to now have CE is stupid. A REAL cleric knows how to heal in any situation.

    I wouldn't say they know, but they learn. My first tanking of the new BH SoT on a mage succeeded with IH heals. How many know that the bleed isn't affected by RA's defense, or that the bleed can easily be purged by erupting?
    EDIT: As for not waiting if your cleric is ready.... That one is on YOU. =) If I say "one sec Chi or Genie on CD" and you roll on into the throes of danger I am NOT chasing you. I am going to wait and watch as you die or use up all your own resources to stay alive.

    I remember a seeker that said he was going to pull 3 groups in metal then vortex. I said "NO! The squad can't handle 3 groups! He pulled anyway and we all just watched. I was on wiz and he qq'd about not getting help. The cleric had less than 5k hp; so I pointed out that they couldn't have helped. He then qq's that I didn't help. -I wasn't the one with BP! Then he qq's about charm ticks. -Yeah; I treat these idiots the same way. It's like those barbs that would pull all the hell toads in SoT without considering the squad's capability.
    Playing in a team is a team effort, I don't have to waste my resources healing you if you don't have the common courtesy to wait if I ask for a second to get ready for the next pull.

    People should familiarize themselves with others. I didn't like when sins started soloing the bishops in FFC because we lost that time to familiarize ourselves in the instance before hitting the hard stuff. That said: CE should not be expected. People expect every cleric to play the same way. If I find a superior way to do something: I'm not going to bend over for the idiot that can't adapt; (like those people that tell me to move RA closer in RB instead of moving closer themselves).

    I have CE on my cleric's genie, but it shouldn't be needed for anything I do. Maybe some forget that we didn't always have genies.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Gwendolynne - Heavens TearGwendolynne - Heavens Tear Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Are you stupid or just hellbent on not being wrong? Give me instance where CE isnt useful. Only thing I can think of is grinding & PKing, everything else its fairly useful. I also spoke of having several genies, which you didnt even acknowledge. 90% of the time BB is the best way to heal, to not waste apo cd you might need and not have "I need chi, sec" breaks in run CE is pretty much the skill to have.

    But I ask you, if not CE, then what on genie? You make argument how there might not be space for CE, I cant see how that would be possible on PvE genie. This, of course, if we arent talking bout some **** genie with 71- LP. Damage amps? I dont think I have run into cleric that would amp the boss and either way most if not all DDs got the usual HP + AD + Mire + EP on their genie, some extra skills depending on how many LPs genie got. Last time cleric used their genie to "help me" and expelled me, they did more harm than good and since then I cant be expelled as incident forced me to change my settings.

    But lets go trough your list.

    1. Solo grinding? Genie on grinding isnt worth the stamina it uses. This assuming its used for amping targets. AD is one thing, having CE wont make it impossible to have that though. Healing skills on cleric genie just seem absurd.

    2. TT? If we discount 3-3, 3-2 emperor & minister, 3-1 Beast and 2-3 AE, I dont think there is any boss where BB wouldnt be the best healing option.

    3. PK? Like I said earlier, you have PvE and PvP genie.

    4. NW? See above.

    o.o; BB best in 90% of cases? Who BBs in TT3-x anyway? Almost all of those bosses break BB (the few that don't BB is a waste on because you could be adding to party damage when not healing by debuffing and amping with genie skills and your debuffs) that is a waste and while you're being interrupted you have no Stacked heals on ANY of your party so if you are sealed your team is being pummeled with AoE and direct Damage to the tanks. I AoE heal, Stack ISH x3 or 4 on every party member in successions, then I Stream of Rejuvenation on the Tank and cast Wings of protection if I see the Tele that the boss has that is going to seal,sleep, interrupt etc. That is why I don't need a second cleric for Doing things. Because I pay attention, and even if I don't get my rotation done on rare occasion I miss the tele or something goes ary, I'm not STUCK in a bubble helplessly watching my squad. You cannot do much of anything while in BB other than drop it and wait for the animation to stop.

    I am NOT saying that BB is a bad skill, hell I use it all of the time.. but only when its appropriate and its a last resort skill. End-game there aren't too many bosses that allow for uninterrupted BB, as well it should be. BTW, in some situations a good cleric can out do the damage mitigation that comes from BB.

    My Clerics Genie has:
    Tree of Protection
    Rainbow Blessing
    Expel
    Absolute Domain
    Extreme Poison
    Cloud Eruption
    Holy Path

    Of all of them the least used are ToP and CE. Why? because I don't need them very often, they are there for emergencies. I much rather have AD off Cool Down so I can use it in junction with my Apoths. Just because its not how YOU play doesn't mean there is anything wrong with how I play my cleric, and the OP's Cleric certainly wasn't a bad cleric because of lack of CE, there is much more wrong there than is even worth it. They need more practice and a more open mind. I'm not a perfect player, nor do I have the best gear, but I love what I do and I am a passionate cleric who feels that BB is over-used in situations where its not needed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Character Roster:
    Gwendolynne : 101/SageVeno - Xyleena : 102/DemonCleric
    Delecroix : 101/DemonSin - Anatoxin : 9x/SagePsy
    Raevynne : 100/DemonBM - GotMeTwisted : 8x/SageSeeker
    Deicidea : 8x/Mystic - Diva : 95/SageBM/Retired
  • Haila - SanctuaryHaila - Sanctuary Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    BB was on a distance because the cleric was expecting you to pull mobs back a bit XD
    Say in chat what u gonna do next in a random squad, dont expect everyone to do it in your way b:nosebleed
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    90% of the time BB is the best way to heal, to not waste apo cd you might need and not have "I need chi, sec" breaks in run CE is pretty much the skill to have.


    That's only for the squishy Assassins who can barely tank bosses yet they steal aggro and demand BB so they stay alive.

    Unless your squad is terribly undergeared and for some reason they need the damage reduction, there's absolutely no reason to use BB when the Cleric can just stack some IHs and debuff to make things go faster.

    Additionally, not being in BB means the Cleric can Purify which is often a better solution than just sitting in BB and hope you'll manage to out-heal despite the debuffs. The main reason I BB at BH bosses such as Abaddon and SoT is because the squad QQs and asks me to BB even though I can just Purify + IH the tank (+ buffs), CHB if boss AOEs and help with debuffing.

    Even with CE, if the Cleric has to BB repeatedly, genie's energy won't be enough to keep up and the Cleric will need "chi breaks".
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    90% of the time BB is the best way to heal

    And you're asking if others are stupid? Let me tell you who dies when bb goes down on BH SoT, Aba boss lately: mystics. You blame RA for not being up: I blame them for being in AoE range being a ranged dd/ healer. -Now who is stupid? I would much rather tank BH / SoT bosses with IH heals rather than RA on Barb, Cleric, Mystic, and Wiz. Use of RA is just catering to the plethora of idiots that can't learn and adapt because they're never made to.

    TT has already been pointed out as not ideal for RA. Mobs on the way to cannonfist should be obvious. Snakefist is situational, Lunar is situational.

    Saying RA is best for 90% makes me think of all the chromaspammers that never learned IH.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's not about they can make it their way, ppl like me, tho I guess there is no other like me really... are like ok you done it...but you could have done this and that better...I analyze ppl all the time. Fine if they are successful in their way, but anyone can do better even if it works just fine. That's what it's about for me.

    Guess I'm a perfectionist or something like that. It's not enough to just being able to get the job done. It has to be efficient and perfect xDDDD

    Yeah I guess I'm crazy b:surrender b:laugh
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • DionDagger - DreamweaverDionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's not about they can make it their way, ppl like me, tho I guess there is no other like me really... are like ok you done it...but you could have done this and that better...I analyze ppl all the time. Fine if they are successful in their way, but anyone can do better even if it works just fine. That's what it's about for me.

    Guess I'm a perfectionist or something like that. It's not enough to just being able to get the job done. It has to be efficient and perfect xDDDD

    Yeah I guess I'm crazy b:surrender b:laugh

    That's a cop out, and it's quite sad you view being a perfectionist that way. Your mindset isn't perfectionism, it's ignorance. Ignorance to the fact that you can be wrong just like anyone else, and now that you have been proven wrong you come here with that bs excuse.

    You analyze people? I highly doubt it. Analyzation involves knowing how others work, and you seem to lack that basic understanding. If you analyzed people you would know that any cleric doesnt NEED CE. If you analyzed people you would not expect them to do things the way YOU would like them. If you analyzed people you would have realized that your opinion is bs, and would have never even posted on this thread to begin with. See where I'm going with this? If you analyze people so well, I won't have to tell you.

    Also have you ever even played a cleric? I've played a barb for 4-5 years, a sin for a year, and a cleric for a year, I think i have a better idea of what they can do. Hell I have no problems healing on my HA cleric even. CE is in efficient in some cases, accept that as a fact, just like BB is in some cases.
  • PotatoHeadQR - DreamweaverPotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,507 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    well, the perfect pull would involve a seeker and a cleric IH'ing the seeker; can't imagine why the seeker would need BB with all the bp heals and IH; wing him if necessary. if vortex can get interrupted then so will BB.

    regarding CE, I can't think of a more useful generic skill after holy path but it all ends up to your chi management.

    about the run, don't see why cleric didn't just IH the seeker since he clearly had aggro. or the seeker + barb. especially since it was fire.

    finally, about the main point of the article, yeah, it's quite funny when people think that solo grinding/doing quests makes you pro especially for support classes.. in the end, being open to tips and reading/calculating is what makes you pro, not killing (another) 20 mobs...
    you only purge once #yopo
  • skaitaviaskaitavia Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This is why Clerics should get a R8r weapon with Infinite, so that if they get agro, they have a small chance of getting half a spark per proc, as well as stack'd IH healing from the proc.

    b:chuckle
  • Kniraven - Lost CityKniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Skaitavia wrote: »
    This is why Clerics should get a R8r weapon with Infinite, so that if they get agro, they have a small chance of getting half a spark per proc, as well as stack'd IH healing from the proc.

    b:chuckle

    I'd way rather have 30+ defense levels from r8r.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Hanzal - DreamweaverHanzal - Dreamweaver Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    No. There is just no reason for not having CE on the clerics genie. Just no. There is no effort in skilling it on the genie and absolutely no other options for clerics that would somehow prevent skilling CE. The only excuse I would accept is if they would at least skill Chi Siphon.
    You don't know what other players' reasoning is for doing things. What counts is their competence on doing what they're supposed to be doing, not whether they have a certain ability or not.

    Like Venus said, it probably wouldn't have mattered even if that Cleric had CE.
    I don't really care how ppl play and stuff but they should at least do their friggin homework otherwise they deserve it to be insulted as noobs. Noob = newby = newcomer = a little experienced person. Seems appropriate and it's not really an insult.
    Newb = New, inexperienced player. Willing to learn from their mistakes and try their best, and if they have a play style you don't accept, they'll more than likely want to stay out of your way.

    Noob = Knows next to nothing about the game in question, but insists they know a lot. Does things their way, and insults you if you don't do it their way or tell them they're wrong. Very childish and selfish/insulting. Ironically, loves calling others 'noob'.

    Next time it happens, boot, ignore, move on. Don't get so worked up over a game. =)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Metalogue - ArchosaurMetalogue - Archosaur Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    "I am not a pleveled noob, i played this char since 2009 and did all the quests !"
    b:surrender

    OBJECTION!!!

    Archosaur opened in February or March of 2010.
  • Takeva - Heavens TearTakeva - Heavens Tear Posts: 359 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    OBJECTION!!!

    Archosaur opened in February or March of 2010.

    Grr Edgy!! I was gonna point that out first!
  • Reliea - SanctuaryReliea - Sanctuary Posts: 685 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Most people don't know how to give tips well.
    I'm not saying that it's always the case, but I know a lot of people get touchy if 1) advise is given unasked for or 2) advise is given in a rude way.
    If you really want to give advise, just give it and accept whatever answer you get in return. Most of the time, if someone gives me advise, I say Thanks. I only really listen to advise from my friends who play the classes I need tips on. They usually know my techniques and the areas I need pointers on; if you don't play regularly with someone, you have no idea what they are really doing. And I don't run crucial characters (barbs, clerics) in random squads if I'm not semi-confident in my own abilities.

    I only usually give people advice if they're doing something fundamentally wrong (I.E - your BB is too close (getting stunned) or too far away, or trying to BB in aoe canceling mobs like Fire pav), not having CE isn't a fundamental wrongness in my opinion.

    As a cleric I would prefer not to have to BB at all, but since people have lost the ability to control their aggro, it's just safer. I recently witnessed a catastophic caster wipe on the Seat bh boss because the wiz and the psychic didn't manage their aggro, and I can't even count the number of sins and archers that die on bosses 20% before the boss dies. So yeah, I did get CE on my cleric's genie, though mostly because there isn't always a veno (and when there is, 70% of the time they never give sparks, which as a person who has a veno as my main, makes me nerd rage a little >.>) Also people are not patient enough to let the cleric get chi any other way; sometimes I cheat and lower BB early so I can DD on some mobs before moving.

    If someone can't take well phrased advise, 'tis their own loss. At least you can't say you didn't try.
  • Miss_menace - Raging TideMiss_menace - Raging Tide Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Skaitavia wrote: »
    This is why Clerics should get a R8r weapon with Infinite, so that if they get agro, they have a small chance of getting half a spark per proc, as well as stack'd IH healing from the proc.

    b:chuckle

    I have that on my glaive... but i use it for only aoe farming, or when i know there's aoe that might shoot me some chi. R9rr is nice for other stuff of course b:laugh

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW2m8QQJbD8
  • Miss_menace - Raging TideMiss_menace - Raging Tide Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    90% of the time BB is the best way to heal

    OMG. do you like NOT KNOW what clerics do?

    I heard a barb say once "what's so hard about cleric? just BB and watch your HP." Stupidist thing I've ever heard someone say outloud about a cleric. But yours, HideYo, is a close second.

    You know what drives me crazy? When you see cleric AOE heal (BB or chromatic) when the boss has no aoe. Every pro cleric knows that the most powerful heal is the stacked IH. Even with 50% reduction of damage, if you are spam healing a tank, they have a much better chance of staying alive as long as they are not a one-shot (if they are... well then a smart cleric knows it too... and if they are a one-shot, they are clearly more obssessed with damage than staying alive.)

    90% of the time BB is the best way to heal? OMG did you just join PWI or something? So the rest of our heals are secondary to BB?? GAWD no respect!

    Have a BM friend who says he never kills a cleric in PvP unless they attack first... he says it's bad karma to kill a cleric for no reason. Same goes for underestimating what a pro cleric can do with a genie that hasn't been purged of its energy from spamming CE, and knowing that BB is a secondary option, not the primary. This bad karma will follow you around HealYo.
  • thatguy123456thatguy123456 Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I was going to write a lengthy reply.... but i won't...

    At the end of the day each has their own way of playing, good, bad, ugly, or otherwise. If they do not meet up to your expectations it's up to you how you handle them. People are still people, some take advice, some take criticism, some will brush you off (or worse).

    But beyond all that, they have a right to play, good, bad, ugly... and you have the right to never squad with them again... It's a game.

    Happy PWI...
  • Miss_menace - Raging TideMiss_menace - Raging Tide Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    But beyond all that, they have a right to play, good, bad, ugly... and you have the right to never squad with them again... It's a game.

    And i suppose we have the right to not play if they clearly don't know what they are doing... so yeah.

    But you have to admit... it sure is fun discussing what does and doesnt work. I'm sure some clerics learned a thing or two here.
  • thatguy123456thatguy123456 Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    And i suppose we have the right to not play if they clearly don't know what they are doing... so yeah.

    But you have to admit... it sure is fun discussing what does and doesnt work. I'm sure some clerics learned a thing or two here.


    agreed.. however I'm sure the majority of the helpful discussion will never be read by the people this article is about, even if this was in the class specific section.

    It is good to get an active debate though, rather than the typical "oh no another thread on that... isn't this the 203920349 one now?"
  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Remember the days when i was doing full FC runs. I got so anoyed by squads thinking we need a seeker. After i got it out of their heads, we did the whole instance without problems, their brains would always go blank again when we entered the big room. I always had to explain all over again that they have to do the exact same thing as was done with all the pulls and that i wanted the cleric to spam IH me while i HF+sunder-armageddon those mobs to death. What an efford it took to convince a cleric that he really should not BB in the middle of the room and go afk b:surrender

    I hate BB and to a slightly lesser extend vortex. They are idiot skills that breed nothing but brainless *******. But they are overpowered and indeed in many cases BB is better than IH. It just depends on the situation.

    If no other healing is taken into account, then IH allows your tank to absorb more dmg/s than BB.

    If you are healing a target that receives aditional healing like a bloodpainted APS DD or using crab or maybe receives additional healing from a mystic, your BB allows for more damage absorbing.

    -BB reduces the 1-shot factor
    -BB allows more damage absorbtion when there is additional healing
    -IH only reaches maximum effect after 15 seconds and is not as good as BB if it has not been precasted long before incomming damage has started.
    -By far most barbs cannot hold agro 100% of the time so there will be multiple targets taking damage making BB the better option.
    -Even if agro is on only 1 player, BB provides safety in case any kind of mistakes causes another player to get agro by accident.;

    All together unfortunately BB is indeed really the best healing when A) it is not going to be interupted and B) the cleric does not need to purify in between healing. I hate the skill too for its braindeadness, but saying that it is not usually the best way of healing is elitism and denial of a reality we do not like.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    OMG. do you like NOT KNOW what clerics do?

    I heard a barb say once "what's so hard about cleric? just BB and watch your HP." Stupidist thing I've ever heard someone say outloud about a cleric. But yours, HideYo, is a close second.

    You know what drives me crazy? When you see cleric AOE heal (BB or chromatic) when the boss has no aoe. Every pro cleric knows that the most powerful heal is the stacked IH. Even with 50% reduction of damage, if you are spam healing a tank, they have a much better chance of staying alive as long as they are not a one-shot (if they are... well then a smart cleric knows it too... and if they are a one-shot, they are clearly more obssessed with damage than staying alive.)

    90% of the time BB is the best way to heal? OMG did you just join PWI or something? So the rest of our heals are secondary to BB?? GAWD no respect!

    Have a BM friend who says he never kills a cleric in PvP unless they attack first... he says it's bad karma to kill a cleric for no reason. Same goes for underestimating what a pro cleric can do with a genie that hasn't been purged of its energy from spamming CE, and knowing that BB is a secondary option, not the primary. This bad karma will follow you around HealYo.

    I disagree with this. Most of the time, BB is better. Most of the time you have aggro ping pong on bosses. Most of the time, you have damage dealers with overpowered weapons but rather weak defenses. Most of the time you are dealing with multiple mobs, like in Warsong BH.

    Also, I'm fairly certain that the non-AoE bosses in Warsong are much harder to kill if the cleric only uses IH instead of BB.
  • Haila - SanctuaryHaila - Sanctuary Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    OMG. do you like NOT KNOW what clerics do?

    I heard a barb say once "what's so hard about cleric? just BB and watch your HP." Stupidist thing I've ever heard someone say outloud about a cleric. But yours, HideYo, is a close second.

    You know what drives me crazy? When you see cleric AOE heal (BB or chromatic) when the boss has no aoe. Every pro cleric knows that the most powerful heal is the stacked IH. Even with 50% reduction of damage, if you are spam healing a tank, they have a much better chance of staying alive as long as they are not a one-shot (if they are... well then a smart cleric knows it too... and if they are a one-shot, they are clearly more obssessed with damage than staying alive.)

    90% of the time BB is the best way to heal? OMG did you just join PWI or something? So the rest of our heals are secondary to BB?? GAWD no respect!

    Have a BM friend who says he never kills a cleric in PvP unless they attack first... he says it's bad karma to kill a cleric for no reason. Same goes for underestimating what a pro cleric can do with a genie that hasn't been purged of its energy from spamming CE, and knowing that BB is a secondary option, not the primary. This bad karma will follow you around HealYo.

    I dont agree also maybe its not 90% but 85% b:laugh
  • Neferhotep - Lost CityNeferhotep - Lost City Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Well there are actually two ways how to become a perfect noob.

    1) Powerleveling: Doing hardly anything in PVE yourself and gain gaming experience only from checking guides and watching high lvls doing your work. Ending = You have some dungeon and team experience, but no clue what your own job is or how your skills can save your as.s.

    2)Questing only : You did your Quest all by yourself except some bosses done by high-lvled friends, got great experience in Solo playing but youre unable to play a certain role in a squad because they want you to use skills youd never use when killling quest mobs. Ending= Venos that dont know when to pass or get chi or dont know how important amplify is, Clerics that never used bb before, barbs playing in human form only and mystics using devil and a NV + AS Combo for every single mob in a dungeon because it worked so well while questing

    I usually hate the last ones most because they always get angry when you try to help them.

    And CE is a useful skill for classes that have chi problems below 100. A Cleric should be able to at least put up BB again one time if it drops. If the cleric can handle this without CE, great. If not, get CE and then everythings great as well. At 100+ in harder dungeons other genie skills can be waaaay more important and squishy classes /chi-based classes should have bought or made pots anyway, everything is so much easier with them.

    The only classes i always had CE and kept it on one genie was Mystic and Archer because ....
    Mystics are screwed without chi below 100. I loved Thicket for duels and TW and Cragg as being pro DD below 100. And as an Archer i always feared having not enough chi to stun -> freeze an enemy in PVE if neccesary.

    People have some main expectations to someone. It doesnt matter how they do their job as long as theyre doing it. I dont care if the cleric uses pots,Genie skills or chi skills to get up bb as long as it gets up. And i dont mind if i get healed trough BB or IH as long AS i get healed and dont die.

    If a class manages to go a different way unknown to me and reaches the same end as i do ( or probably reaches the end even faster) im glad were both there and survived. And i might learn some new ways as well, for example what cleric skills give the most chi if youre in need of it instead always using CE.
    I like potatoes <(O~O)>
  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    And back on subject then.
    Its the same as with the saying "weapons dont kill people, people kill people"

    So it is with powerleveling. Powerleveling doesnt create noobs. People who arent interested in learning to become better and in giving the best they can create noobs regardless of how they are leveled. People who have this competetive nerd-attitude towards themselves, who are only satisfied when they are the best on their server, and will find and absorb every bit of information to get there, those create the good players, also regardless of how they leveled.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Vanflyheight - Heavens TearVanflyheight - Heavens Tear Posts: 420 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    when it comes to being a cleric, everyone should learn the basics of good clericing such as IH stacking, aoe heals when needed, and either popping in a wellspring or rejuvenation once in a while to when its needed. BB is needed during certain times such as when you get 2-3 DDs doing the agro ping pong on the tank, to where ya need it for the dmg reduction but that doesnt mean that BB is needed all the time especially when it can and will get knocked out by a bosses aoe. BB shouldnt be substituted for good cleric work when you got other healing skills besides RA/BB to heal the squad as well as individuals. IF DDs do have weak defenses, BB wont save them at all since they can still be 1-2 shotted through bb (even though i havent seen it happen yet). BB isnt the miracle healing skill here so if your a DD who takes agro more times than not from the tank, learn to control that agro stead of relying on the clerics BB healing to help get ya out of a jam. we clerics can be one shotted by a bosses aoe just as easily and then where's your precious bb or healing to keep butt alive if the one who has the healing skills is dead? (assuming there is no mystic in squad)

    Another thing regarding CE (aka cloud eruption), a cleric doesnt need CE just to be qualified in a bh squad, a cleric can go without that genie skill as long as he/she can know how to build chi up it doesnt take a high IQ to see that. i dont have CE on my clerics genie and im able to have 2 sparks for bb when its needed. Plus not all clerics will have CE on their genies, some perfer survival and defenses more than getting a chi skill that they wont be using that much anyway. CE does and might help some clerics, but it wont help any cleric that dies from a bosses aoe. what do you want them to do huh, use CE while they are dead? duh, they are dead which means that their genie is completely out of energy and unable to be used. if you want the perfect cleric, have pwi add a genie skill that revives fallen players while giving them 2 sparks upon being revived.
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  • Miss_menace - Raging TideMiss_menace - Raging Tide Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I disagree with this. Most of the time, BB is better. Most of the time you have aggro ping pong on bosses. Most of the time, you have damage dealers with overpowered weapons but rather weak defenses. Most of the time you are dealing with multiple mobs, like in Warsong BH.

    Also, I'm fairly certain that the non-AoE bosses in Warsong are much harder to kill if the cleric only uses IH instead of BB.

    Just remember, a cleric in BB can do nothing more than use a genie if something happens... and from thr sounds of this discussion, they wont be able to do that either if they are spamming their CE.

    A good cleric reads the squad. I didnt say NOT to use BB. They just know what's going on. If there's ping pong aggro, and the cleric cant keep up on heals, OF COURSE YOU BB... we're not idiots. But there's a lot more that a cleric can do if they can keep people healed out of BB. Res, purify, debuff, (and i dare say on any extremely needed occasion, DD).

    Telling a cleric to just BB is like telling a BM "Hey just HF and aps"... sometimes, you have to adjust your thinking and let the cleric do their job, just like a BM has way more tricks in their arsenal than just a damage amplifier.

    Now... if the cleric is a total noob... well i guess BB would be the only solution... and from the sounds of it, sounds like everyone just wants noob clerics. No wonder the majority of them cant stay alive once they get into a PvP situation (i.e. NW).

    I love my BB, but I will always do my job the best that I can regardless of what the squad says... you don't like it... go find yourself a nab cleric.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I disagree with this. Most of the time, BB is better. Most of the time you have aggro ping pong on bosses. Most of the time, you have damage dealers with overpowered weapons but rather weak defenses. Most of the time you are dealing with multiple mobs, like in Warsong BH.

    Also, I'm fairly certain that the non-AoE bosses in Warsong are much harder to kill if the cleric only uses IH instead of BB.

    The only reason you get aggro ping pong is because people bend over for those idiots that show off that they can get aggro. If we start leaving them dead until boss is dead; they stop. I'll take aggro with my mystic, but I'm also able to solo the bosses which is what should be expected of aggro thieves. It's not hard to look at a barbs weapon, or observe the skills they're using to see how well they'll be holding aggro. It's also not hard to use Subsea, HF/GS, etc instead of erupting. If Cleric doesn't BB on Snakefist: I don't try to tank on my Assassin -that simple.

    Imagine street racers with 1,800 horse power. Do they win the race by going all out the whole time? -No; and neither should DDs with great weapons that can't handle tanking. If a cleric has time to drop RA to revive someone; they also have time to cast debuffs and dd.

    How does RA help kill a boss? If the 1-1 bosses main dmg is phys: Sage Vanguard Spirit every 3-4 IH's -"Sage version grants an additional 100% physical defense for 10 seconds". Demon Clerics would likely use Stream of Rejuvenation: "Demon version temporarily grants the target an additional 100% bonus to equipment's physical defense."
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Dont agree with that either.

    Agro mechanics dont have to be as simple as "barb always has agro and everyone better just make sure he dont take agro because i refuse to BB"

    Let the DDs go all out. The barb can ream + devour and take agro for a little while sharing the agro between the 2 of them, or even between more than 2 of multiple DDs have similar output.
    If the barb has stomp of the king as well, he may actually be able to hold it full time but still it is very possible that by the end of the 20second cooldown, the DDs will steal agro again and that is ok.

    I hope you agree that a cleric who refuses to BB when it is perfectly possible and lets the DDs die because he wants to heal only the tank is an idiot who should be kicked from squad and blacklisted to never be joined in squad again.

    I repeat. " elitism and denial of a reality we do not like."
    Just use your frickin BB and dont try to show of you are such a great cleric that uses "pro" skills and then let the DDs die....
    The arguments are turning rediculous now really.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    The only reason you get aggro ping pong is because people bend over for those idiots that show off that they can get aggro. If we start leaving them dead until boss is dead; they stop. I'll take aggro with my mystic, but I'm also able to solo the bosses which is what should be expected of aggro thieves. It's not hard to look at a barbs weapon, or observe the skills they're using to see how well they'll be holding aggro. It's also not hard to use Subsea, HF/GS, etc instead of erupting. If Cleric doesn't BB on Snakefist: I don't try to tank on my Assassin -that simple.

    Imagine street racers with 1,800 horse power. Do they win the race by going all out the whole time? -No; and neither should DDs with great weapons that can't handle tanking. If a cleric has time to drop RA to revive someone; they also have time to cast debuffs and dd.

    How does RA help kill a boss? If the 1-1 bosses main dmg is phys: Sage Vanguard Spirit every 3-4 IH's -"Sage version grants an additional 100% physical defense for 10 seconds". Demon Clerics would likely use Stream of Rejuvenation: "Demon version temporarily grants the target an additional 100% bonus to equipment's physical defense."

    My statements were not made to describe the ideal world, but to describe what actually happens. It is clear that you are not representative of the typical player within random groups I join or most people join. Congratulations. You are not part of the 90%. For those of us who regularly experience the 90%, Regeneration Aura is almost always better, unless it gets interrupted, as it provides a high benefit-to-cost ratio. The cost (2 sparks and inability to damage / debuff) to use the spell is fairly small compared to the benefit (everyone gets healed, aggro ping pong disasters get averted).

    As for 1-1 bosses, it helps b/c 50% damage reduction is a lot more beneficial than 100% bonus to equipment's physical defense. If you go with the traditional decently equipped Barbarian as a tank, then the point is moot as any reasonable method of healing will work. However, the number of individuals who can tank such bosses increase if you use Regeneration Aura because they will have an easier time surviving. 50% damage reduction makes a huge difference against a boss if the tank is 2 or 3 shot. Having a tank like this happens more often than many people think, especially for individuals in small factions or dislike randoms.
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