Plevel noobs

tweakz

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Agro mechanics dont have to be as simple as "barb always has agro and everyone better just make sure he dont take agro because i refuse to BB"

DD's should know how to dd just like barbs should know how to tank, and clerics how to heal. There should be no free pass to derpa derpa dd.

Let the DDs go all out. The barb can ream + devour and take agro for a little while sharing the agro between the 2 of them, or even between more than 2 of multiple DDs have similar output. If the barb has stomp of the king as well, he may actually be able to hold it full time but still it is very possible that by the end of the 20second cooldown, the DDs will steal agro again and that is ok.

Stealing aggro is only ok if they can tank given the circumstances. Again: DD shouldn't be a derpa derpa class.

I hope you agree that a cleric who refuses to BB when it is perfectly possible and lets the DDs die because he wants to heal only the tank is an idiot who should be kicked from squad and blacklisted to never be joined in squad again.

No cleric that doesn't RA lets DDs die. You are implying that DD should get a free ride and not have to use any intellect whatsoever. They just show up and derpa derpa according to you, rather than evaluate the circumstances and respond accordingly.

Just use your frickin BB and dont try to show of you are such a great cleric that uses "pro" skills and then let the DDs die....
The arguments are turning rediculous now really.

You're expecting here for clerics to compensate for the lack of intelligence and knowledge of fail dds. No cleric that doesn't use RA lets dd's die: they kill themselves! Any DD should be able to evaluate a situation and respond accordingly. -Take some freakin responsibility. DD shouldn't mean 'idiot -innocent of any wrong doing class'. The biggest problem facing clerics is the vit / pve/ chromaspaming idiots, and tt99 +5 and lower weapons that make tanks have to pot. I don't use HP charms so I won't even mention that.

A cleric out of RA can debuff mdef better than any other, dd, revive (safely with stacked IH+WoP or SoR), increase dmg of mage tanks (sage magic shell/ demon spirit's gift).

WannaBM - Archosaur

You sound to me like the prime example of said "old players" who refuse to change their ways.

It somehow got into your brain like this: tank has all agro, dds have no agro, cleric heals only tank unless aoe. Yes that was true someday long ago and that is how the mmorpg genre was initially designed. Times have changed, please change allong with them.

You can BB, the whole squad is safe, the tank and DD can share agro. This is a whole new way indeed, when i tank and i am unable to hold full agro, i try to keep agro at the moments it matters most and allow the DD to have it at the moments he can handle while i reload chi and/or cooldown. Meanwhile the DD can do the same, he goes all out as long as he can handle the agro, takes back for me to ream when needed. Much more interesting in fact than the old fashioned view. This way damage out put can be kept to a maximum instead of DD's doing working at half their damage output because the cleric insists on only healing the tank.

I also dislike BB OPness. As it is, the way to allow for maximum killing speed by allowing agro pong, you need to use a very easy skill. What you want is to make it more complicated in order to reach lower killing speed. Of course it should be the other way around. More complicated cleric work should benefit the squad instead of handicap it like you do.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

CE is not needed if the cleric is smart, I never used it and never had problem, but when a pull is almost done and there's only 2-3 mobs left I drop BB and finish with IH/Wellspring so I get back chi. (for any instance with pulls that requisite BB)

Personally when I do warsong majority of people do the pavs it in 1 or 2 pulls and the cleric need to holy path 2-3 times to be able to catch the squad and set BB, which mean the genie doesn't have enough energy to use CE, in place where people do big pill don't forget that the cleric need to holy path.

And for the fire pav BB is the worse thing to do cause at 90% of the time it drop and the cleric panic and try to set back BB and get interrupt, than try again, during that time people die cause they got no heal, but 90% of the clerics still continue to try to BB each run in the fire pav.

Some cleric suck, nvm if they have CE or not, been good have nothing to do with that, I never had it and I was a great cleric and never got issue. If the cleric was good he will be able to keep his squad alive without BB which mean no need CE.

Some clerics wait that there's totally no mobs left to drop BB, than ask to wait for chi, when there's 2-3 mobs left, BB is not needed, drop it and IH/Wellspring and you will be full chi by the time the mobs die and you will be able to fully use your holy path.

For people that say to clerics to use CE and use charger pots for the speed, seriously stop to try to control people, chargers are really expensive since it's the most important pot in NW (50k on HL), so none cleric should be forced to put CE on his genie and pay 250k each full ws run for chargers. (same for people saying that a cleric can use Holy path and white tea for chi)

tweakz

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

You sound to me like the prime example of said "old players" who refuse to change their ways.

Oh cont-rare! When I'm on Cleric: I'm am not healing sins because it's habit or what I want to do. I do not assume the role of tank if I'm on Barb when I can support an Assassin tank with devour, and frighten and RA is used. I am one of the ones that gets people to change their old ways unlike the cleric who puts RA too close to womb in RB.

It somehow got into your brain like this: tank has all agro, dds have no agro, cleric heals only tank unless aoe. Yes that was true someday long ago and that is how the mmorpg genre was initially designed. Times have changed, please change allong with them.

You're talking about change and have yet to have spell check incorporated into your browser. I didn't say DD's have no aggro: I make it clear that they should be able to tank IF they take aggro.

You can BB, the whole squad is safe, the tank and DD can share agro. This is a whole new way indeed, when i tank and i am unable to hold full agro, i try to keep agro at the moments it matters most and allow the DD to have it at the moments he can handle while i reload chi and/or cooldown.

No: lately mystics are dying in RA (it's not safe). It has nothing to do with cleric and all to do with idiot dds that don't bother to learn how to play responsibly. Ranged dd's that die from short range AoE - seriously. -Leave them dead until boss is dead and they'll learn. Too much bending over is going on.

Meanwhile the DD can do the same, he goes all out as long as he can handle the agro, takes back for me to ream when needed. Much more interesting in fact than the old fashioned view. This way damage out put can be kept to a maximum instead of DD's doing working at half their damage output because the cleric insists on only healing the tank.

The biggest problem in this scenario is the idiotic Barb that refuses to acknowledge another toon as tank. You're indicating this scenario in your reference to them as dd. (You are the problem). You even go on to indicate use of ream when needed when Ream does nothing to support the actual tank when devour and frighten would. You are the one that refuses to change their ways.

WannaBM - Archosaur

tweakz wrote: »

The biggest problem in this scenario is the idiotic Barb that refuses to acknowledge another toon as tank. You're indicating this scenario in your reference to them as dd. (You are the problem). You even go on to indicate use of ream when needed when Ream does nothing to support the actual tank when devour and frighten would. You are the one that refuses to change their ways.

When a DD can tank alone, i let them tank. In fact I frickin love to !!! im an APS barb for ****s sake, please let me be standing and DPSing to get him down faster. But many of the sins that out-dps me dont want to, cant or simply are afraid to handle the agro alone and ask me to ream to give them some relief even though in tiger i cannot hold 100% agro (well, until i got stomp of the king a few days ago that is) Believe me, i am the very very last barb that dont want to acknowledge another DD as tank. Unfortunately, even though i cannot hold 100% agro, i sometimes need to hold partial agro because the sin cannot handle agro alone when fighting some of the tougher bosses.

I hate it espescially when the sin has G16+5 daggers. I have G16+8 fists and that equates to G16+4 dagger sins. So the +5 sin does only a few % more damage than I. I would so love him to hold back just that tiny bit so that i can hold agro while APSing, but of course they always want me to go tiger even though for example i do 30k dps and he does 33k. (on a lvl 150 boss) He could hold back to say 27 so we do a joint 57k, but they want me to go tiger and devour so that their 33 goes up to 38 while i do only 3 in tiger and we end up with a total of 41.
I hate it, but i have already learned to accept it. I tiger when asked....

Kaoko - Dreamweaver

i'm a non pleved cleric, been playing for years, and I've never had CE on any of my genies. why use it if you can carry apoth and sage chi skill. its just a waste of genie skill space when there are other options out there.

Not having CE on a cleric genies doesn't mean a fail cleric. most of us have back ups and know how to manage chi, unlike the fail cleric you had to deal with. It comes to play style, managing your chi properly, as well as knowing what skill are going to help build chi the fastest.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

A mistake (or bad habit) that I see a LOT of clerics do is before set BB or when BB drop they cast plume shell, which cost chi and in majority of the case is useless since the AOE are magic damage not physical damage.

A lot of clerics just use plume shell constantly without even need it, as much as it's important to use it in PVP, I never used plume shell in PVE and it waste chi for nothing.

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

tweakz wrote: »

You're expecting here for clerics to compensate for the lack of intelligence and knowledge of fail dds. No cleric that doesn't use RA lets dd's die: they kill themselves! Any DD should be able to evaluate a situation and respond accordingly. -Take some freakin responsibility. DD shouldn't mean 'idiot -innocent of any wrong doing class'. The biggest problem facing clerics is the vit / pve/ chromaspaming idiots, and tt99 +5 and lower weapons that make tanks have to pot. I don't use HP charms so I won't even mention that.

A cleric out of RA can debuff mdef better than any other, dd, revive (safely with stacked IH+WoP or SoR), increase dmg of mage tanks (sage magic shell/ demon spirit's gift).

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

You sound to me like the prime example of said "old players" who refuse to change their ways.

Typical statement from unteachable noobs.

Listen. Im an old-school cleric. I know when its better for the sin to tank to get rid of the boss fast. It doesnt mean I have to BB. I get it... barbs are not always the aggro holders.

We're talking about idiots who are so obssessed with doing damage, that they sacrifice the cleric who HAS to go to BB and denies the squad the benefits of the other skills.

TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY, if you cant handle the damage, then learn hold back on aggro. I have a sin who can tank most, but i know how to hold back when i can see its more than i can take.

You know... it reminds me of those sins... who pop out on my cleric when i have bramble... and they are clearly dying while i heal myself, and yet for some reason they think "if i just hit faster and harder, im sure she'll die"... try some self-control -.-

Haila - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

DD's should know how to dd just like barbs should know how to tank, and clerics how to heal. There should be no free pass to derpa derpa dd.

Stealing aggro is only ok if they can tank given the circumstances. Again: DD shouldn't be a derpa derpa class.

No cleric that doesn't RA lets DDs die. You are implying that DD should get a free ride and not have to use any intellect whatsoever. They just show up and derpa derpa according to you, rather than evaluate the circumstances and respond accordingly.

You're expecting here for clerics to compensate for the lack of intelligence and knowledge of fail dds. No cleric that doesn't use RA lets dd's die: they kill themselves! Any DD should be able to evaluate a situation and respond accordingly. -Take some freakin responsibility. DD shouldn't mean 'idiot -innocent of any wrong doing class'. The biggest problem facing clerics is the vit / pve/ chromaspaming idiots, and tt99 +5 and lower weapons that make tanks have to pot. I don't use HP charms so I won't even mention that.

A cleric out of RA can debuff mdef better than any other, dd, revive (safely with stacked IH+WoP or SoR), increase dmg of mage tanks (sage magic shell/ demon spirit's gift).

lol I think you are talking about your awesome mage is tanking and dont need BB and another DD is easily outDDing you b:laugh

1. The cleric was healing the wrong tank so its clerics fault.
2. The cleric could have avoid it with BB, clerics fault again
3. If you cant tank it in BB at a boss with no BB interupts, Dont tank XD

Why are ppl shouting for clerics for warsong and lunar and not for a mystic?
Yes because they can BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB b:laugh
And some rare occasions we need clerics also for purify

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol I think you are talking about your awesome mage is tanking and dont need BB and another DD is easily outDDing you b:laugh

1. The cleric was healing the wrong tank so its clerics fault.
2. The cleric could have avoid it with BB, clerics fault again
3. If you cant tank it in BB at a boss with no BB interupts, Dont tank XD

Why are ppl shouting for clerics for warsong and lunar and not for a mystic?
Yes because they can BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB b:laugh
And some rare occasions we need clerics also for purify

Warsong can be done without BB ijs...

Haila - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Warsong can be done without BB ijs...

It can be done also with a TT90 cleric with BB ijs....

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

It can be done also with a TT90 cleric with BB ijs....

Some of the best clerics i've run with have been in their 90s. They venture lunar and warsong, because they dont think like noobs who say "oh my gear isnt enough.. i shouldnt do that until level 100)

Surprirse surprise, its about your cleric SKILLS!

It might be a good test for those clerics who think they can't live without CE on their genie just to make sure they can BB to make a PvE genie without a chi skill and see how they get on. Challenge yourself and you may see a whole other world outside of BB.

Had a cleric with less than 5K HP in a full delta run... she didnt BB once. It was amazing. Not an OP squad... my veno still was using a gold FC weap, and the sin wasnt even 4 aps. Everyone was just SMART.

I agree... reality is, that's not the kind of players we encounter anymore, and running with randoms is getting less and less enjoyable. I say, fill your FL with good players. If your not wiling to learn how to play your toon, you dont deserve a squad.

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

This is what's really sad:

Barbs are for HP buff
Sins are for high aps only
BMs are for HF
Venos are for amp and purge
Mystics are for ress buff

and the list goes on...

what a sad new world PWI has become.

ovenusarmanio

LOLOL You do NOT need BB to deal with aggro pong. It's called checking out people's damage during the run and making sure they have heals ready when/if they take aggro. If the sin needs a damage reduction skill and heals, then they should be using focused mind to reduce their own damn damage. And ribstrike. If ribstrike+focused+devour+IH+ream/stomp cannot keep the sin alive, they had no business grabbing aggro in the first place and it is their own fault they are dead.
The cleric rightly gets blamed if they are running around with a weapon that can't heal well, the sins should get blamed if they are running around with gear that can't tank even though they steal aggro. That's nobody's fault but the person who owns the toon.

Not only should you use a preventive heal, but you should be using debuffs to make sure they are getting increased paint heals when the barb is not devouring because he has to play aggro ping pong. And with constant debuffs, the boss dies faster. Which lowers the total damage taken for everyone. It is really easy to heal aggro ping for up to 2-3 people really if you know what you are doing, more than that and I'd probably BB. If a DD fails to use their survival skills, constantly takes aggro they cant' handle, and then whines for a rez because a small IH stack couldn't save him in the two seconds it took for the cleric to switch targets, then it is own fault he's dead. Not the cleric.

BB is a great skill, and it can really help a squad a lot. There are times where you have no choice but to use because the only people available to tank are too squishy to survive without it. That's okay. everyone gears up at a different rate. It's fantastic for aoe healing. It has a LOT of uses. It can help someone out who p.leveled to heal instances they wouldn't be able to do otherwise, and use the money earned form that to gear up their cleric. Which is GREAT! But it isn't the end all, be all. And it is way overused.

Oh wait, I forgot. Nothing is ever the assassin's fault.

Malei - Sanctuary

Miss_menace - Raging Tide wrote: »

Had a cleric with less than 5K HP in a full delta run... she didnt BB once. It was amazing. Not an OP squad... my veno still was using a gold FC weap, and the sin wasnt even 4 aps. Everyone was just SMART.

What cleric was this? You should be able to remember that name. Personally, I wouldn't dare do a full delta - Spawn Point or Normal - without utilizing BB. Too much needless strain and the Damage Reduction is useful. Delta, in my honest opinion, is a definite Regeneration Aura recommended instance for random and known squads.

Of course, know what to do when/if BB is canceled. But to go completely without it? Madness.

Edit: I'm also highly inclined to believe that because your squad wasn't "op", assuming gear was no more impressive than +5 TT99s, you were forced to either:

A) Do a normal delta where all of the auras were activated and draw all mobs back/close to the Eye.

Use a ton of Apoth/Crab meat for emergency cases where if BB was up, it would have been unnecessary.

Or

C) Died a ton during the run. Again, needless deaths.

My point being: there are definitely some cases where BB is a godsend and necessary skill.

ovenusarmanio

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

What cleric was this? You should be able to remember that name. Personally, I wouldn't dare do a full delta - Spawn Point or Normal - without utilizing BB. Too much needless strain and the Damage Reduction is useful. Delta, in my honest opinion, is a definite Regeneration Aura recommended instance for random and known squads.

Of course, know what to do when/if BB is canceled. But to go completely without it? Madness.

Edit: I'm also highly inclined to believe that because your squad wasn't "op", assuming gear was no more impressive than +5 TT99s, you were forced to either:

A) Do a normal delta where all of the auras were activated and draw all mobs back/close to the Eye.

Use a ton of Apoth/Crab meat for emergency cases where if BB was up, it would have been unnecessary.

Or

C) Died a ton during the run. Again, needless deaths.

My point being: there are definitely some cases where BB is a godsend and necessary skill.

Yeah, Delta is an instance where I think BB is probably better.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

It's funny 'cause nobody seems to realize it's actually the Veno's pet's fault. Even if there's no Veno in squad.

Thrieya - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's funny 'cause nobody seems to realize it's actually the Veno's pet's fault. Even if there's no Veno in squad.

Yup! Nothing is ever the cleric's fault! If two out of 5 other people die while taking aggro and trying to tank mobs in Lunar, and the other 3 are killing too slowly while just barely staying alive with BB, sure, go ahead and drop BB to take 20+ seconds to ress and buff the dead ones without once ever dropping a single CHB or maybe even an IH. It's not your fault if you're a moron who doesn't know what a normal heal spell is like, it's totally the other 3s fault for not being able to tank 10+ Lunar mobs without a single heal, especially without BP! All DDs should be able to solo pulls like any barb without any cleric heals whatsoever!

Oh, or if Aurogon has killed 6 squad members already, including the barb, and the only people left alive are you, the other cleric, the archer, and the tanking wizard (who is struggling to stay alive through 3k+ hits with just pots, a charm, and self-heals), yup, down BB goes! Go ahead, ress all the corpses, buff them, don't even bother to heal the wizard once. Act surprised when the wizard dies, act surprised when the archer dies too, and then get all prissy when you die three and have to run back. Nevermind that whole **** situation could've been avoided if you'd just bothered to take a few seconds to stack IH on the wiz/archer in between resses, it's clearly all the DDs' fault for not being able to tank Aurogon without heals!

ovenusarmanio

Thrieya - Lost City wrote: »

Yup! Nothing is ever the cleric's fault! If two out of 5 other people die while taking aggro and trying to tank mobs in Lunar, and the other 3 are killing too slowly while just barely staying alive with BB, sure, go ahead and drop BB to take 20+ seconds to ress and buff the dead ones without once ever dropping a single CHB or maybe even an IH. It's not your fault if you're a moron who doesn't know what a normal heal spell is like, it's totally the other 3s fault for not being able to tank 10+ Lunar mobs without a single heal, especially without BP! All DDs should be able to solo pulls like any barb without any cleric heals whatsoever!

Oh, or if Aurogon has killed 6 squad members already, including the barb, and the only people left alive are you, the other cleric, the archer, and the tanking wizard (who is struggling to stay alive through 3k+ hits with just pots, a charm, and self-heals), yup, down BB goes! Go ahead, ress all the corpses, buff them, don't even bother to heal the wizard once. Act surprised when the wizard dies, act surprised when the archer dies too, and then get all prissy when you die three and have to run back. Nevermind that whole **** situation could've been avoided if you'd just bothered to take a few seconds to stack IH on the wiz/archer in between resses, it's clearly all the DDs' fault for not being able to tank Aurogon without heals!

I missed the part where clerics weren't already taking a beating in this thread, and people refused to acknowledge fail clerics. I missed the part where in general, clerics aren't blamed for everything that goes wrong. DDs are rarely held accountable for their own fails. Clerics and tanks get tons of blame.

Sins that don't do anything to reduce the damage coming into them (focused, rib) even though they can't handle the normal damage, but still insist on taking aggro. But no, this is the clerics fault when they inevitably die. Funny thing is with bosses like Snake, that boss gets more deadly over time. And a lot of those same sins still die even with BB, the only difference is that now everyone else might wipe too because they try to hold the boss for said sin.

DDs that amp at randoms, which can cause the problem above.

Ranged Classes that mess up pulls by attacking too early, even when given clear instructions.

Any pullers but seekers and bms especially that pull mobs into BB.

Thrieya - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I missed the part where clerics weren't already taking a beating in this thread, and people refused to acknowledge fail clerics. I missed the part where in general, clerics aren't blamed for everything that goes wrong. DDs are rarely held accountable for their own fails. Clerics and tanks get tons of blame.

In turn, I have never seen a cleric that actually bothered to acknowledge when they'd screwed up. I have never actually seen a DD that blamed the cleric if they died. For a while in 2011/2012, I remember the mentality when everything was 5 APS with BP, and no cleric had to actually heal. They started DDing and debuffing, taking pride in being "metal mages" and then threw the entire cleric handbook out.

I had a cleric who stole aggro in Caster NV and, upon being asked to debuff, promptly responded with a demand that I "try tanking while debuffed". Let's be clear: This cleric did not outgear me. I was R8 at the time, he was also R8. He wasn't some r9 +12 decked-out CSer. The only reason why he was able to steal aggro was because he spammed CE on his genie for permanent triple-spark, while I used my genie to cast Extreme Poison.

I had a cleric who, on the first boss in that same dungeon, didn't bother healing me once while I was tanking, and when I died, promptly ported to the next room without bothering to ress me because they "thought she had mystic buff".

I get there are good clerics and bad DDs. I've seen as many bad DDs around. But when bad clerics are going around blaming their own failures on bad DDs, especially when the DD in question is perfectly competent, I reach the end of my admittedly very-short tether.

ovenusarmanio

Thrieya - Lost City wrote: »

In turn, I have never seen a cleric that actually bothered to acknowledge when they'd screwed up. I have never actually seen a DD that blamed the cleric if they died. For a while in 2011/2012, I remember the mentality when everything was 5 APS with BP, and no cleric had to actually heal. They started DDing and debuffing, taking pride in being "metal mages" and then threw the entire cleric handbook out.

I had a cleric who stole aggro in Caster NV and, upon being asked to debuff, promptly responded with a demand that I "try tanking while debuffed". Let's be clear: This cleric did not outgear me. I was R8 at the time, he was also R8. He wasn't some r9 +12 decked-out CSer. The only reason why he was able to steal aggro was because he spammed CE on his genie for permanent triple-spark, while I used my genie to cast Extreme Poison.

I had a cleric who, on the first boss in that same dungeon, didn't bother healing me once while I was tanking, and when I died, promptly ported to the next room without bothering to ress me because they "thought she had mystic buff".

I get there are good clerics and bad DDs. I've seen as many bad DDs around. But when bad clerics are going around blaming their own failures on bad DDs, especially when the DD in question is perfectly competent, I reach the end of my admittedly very-short tether.

But that last part wasn't happening here, and instead it became a commendation of every cleric that didn't have CE on a genie. Which is a misconception. IT's also a common misconception that BB is a superior heal in 90% of this game's boss encounters. It isn't and there are a lot of bosses where you can't even use BB at all. You don't need BB to manage aggro pong from capable DDs, and the ones that are bad shouldn't get to blame the cleric for their own failure to do anything about their bad playing. If a sin can't survive with ribstrike, focused mind, devour, BP heals, an ih stack, and a p.def buff they have absolutely no business taking aggro. It's be as a simple as using subsea when someone who can tank sparks instead of amping your own sparks, usually. Why should the cleric be blamed for that?

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

Ignorance is blind. No one here is going to take a different look at anything said. That being said, if you like a BB-loving cleric.. dont' run with me because you're not getting BB unless I deem it necessary to use it. I'm gonna keep on keeping on.. oh and to say I never own up to my mistakes.. you'd never know that cause you've never run with me.. but I am human and While I am not perfect I try my very best every run and if I make an oops or a fail.. I apologize and go on with my day. I also don't hate on someone else if they make mistakes. All I hate on is people who aren't the cleric telling me how to do MY job. I don't tell a tank or DD what to do I just heal them unless they do something that will endanger me to the point I can't outlive it. A dead cleric is healing no one... and I cna always res if you die (unless its WS lol).

Thrieya - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

But that last part wasn't happening here, and instead it became a commendation of every cleric that didn't have CE on a genie. Which is a misconception. IT's also a common misconception that BB is a superior heal in 90% of this game's boss encounters. It isn't and there are a lot of bosses where you can't even use BB at all. You don't need BB to manage aggro pong from capable DDs, and the ones that are bad shouldn't get to blame the cleric for their own failure to do anything about their bad playing. If a sin can't survive with ribstrike, focused mind, devour, BP heals, an ih stack, and a p.def buff they have absolutely no business taking aggro. It's be as a simple as using subsea when someone who can tank sparks instead of amping your own sparks, usually. Why should the cleric be blamed for that?

I'm not calling BB a superior heal. Throughout my last two posts, I have outlined situations in which IH or CHB would've done just as well as BB, if not far better. I'm ragging on clerics who don't heal at all, and then blame DDs for failing when they're the ones failing in the first place. Just the same, if this was a thread discussing bad DDs who blame clerics for their failings, I missed that. I agree, clerics shouldn't be blamed for bad DDs dying, but I'll say that bad clerics should be blamed for being bad clerics.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

But that last part wasn't happening here, and instead it became a commendation of every cleric that didn't have CE on a genie. Which is a misconception. IT's also a common misconception that BB is a superior heal in 90% of this game's boss encounters. It isn't and there are a lot of bosses where you can't even use BB at all. You don't need BB to manage aggro pong from capable DDs, and the ones that are bad shouldn't get to blame the cleric for their own failure to do anything about their bad playing. If a sin can't survive with ribstrike, focused mind, devour, BP heals, an ih stack, and a p.def buff they have absolutely no business taking aggro. It's be as a simple as using subsea when someone who can tank sparks instead of amping your own sparks, usually. Why should the cleric be blamed for that?

I think it's kind of funny, because most barbs never spark while tanking because it uses up the chi they need to cast ream and devour. I mean have you ever tanked before? Most of my chi goes to, guess what, tanking. Meaning that I save my spark for staying alive. Nevermind the fact that the DD has a +7 weapon and the barb has a +2 one, we can obviously see who put more into their toon. This is my problem with a lot of clerics amd healers in general, they always claim someone is a bad sin (in particualar) because they got aggro and died. There are a lot of freaking variables that go into the aggro component, so to try and simplify it like that; you should slap yourself. Nevermind the fact that if a mob looks at most clerics funny they died instantly.

1) Focused mind is a 25% chance to make an attack 1 damage. Note: 25% CHANCE. And it doesn't block DoT's or special 1 shot skills some bosses have. 33% if sage focused mind.

2) Ribstrike reduces attack speed by 50%, it does not reduce however how hard a boss hits. You know what does that? Frighten (barb skill), Myriad Sword Stance (BM skill), and Silent Seal (cleric skill).

3)Deaden nerves only restores 10% hp if it ticks, and if you are not charmed you're screwed anyway.

Clearly I have proven that it's a lot harder to mitigate damage as a sin than YOU think, and that other classes are the ones with the attack reducing debuffs that can in fact, be used on bosses. You are right, if you KNOW you can't handle aggro, you should try to keep it off of you, but some bosses have random aggro, and generally DD's have a higher crit rate than their tanky counterparts. I put more coin into my sin that any of my characters, but I can put the same amount into my barb and get a better tank. It requires a lot of coin for a sin to be able to tank bosses that one shot the 6k hp ones, while a barb or cleric can get in a squad with the bare minimum. You can't just simply equate it to a bad DD or fail DD, because **** happens. I can tank snake, pestilence, the water boss, and incarcerate (for a short while). On my sin, but the gear i switch into makes me extremely squad reliant. Aps drop=lower chi gain/less bp heals=more healing needed from, the cleric. 800mil coins into my sin >.<. I have never once been called a bad DD because I was doing my job, and i would castrate anyone that has the audacity to. Snake kills me if he goes into a long frenzy mode, it happens, but hey, I'm a bad sin because I got aggro and couldn't handle it right?

ovenusarmanio

Thrieya - Lost City wrote: »

I'm not calling BB a superior heal. Throughout my last two posts, I have outlined situations in which IH or CHB would've done just as well as BB, if not far better. I'm ragging on clerics who don't heal at all, and then blame DDs for failing when they're the ones failing in the first place. Just the same, if this was a thread discussing bad DDs who blame clerics for their failings, I missed that. I agree, clerics shouldn't be blamed for bad DDs dying, but I'll say that bad clerics should be blamed for being bad clerics.

I was more replying to the nothing is ever the clerics fault part. I think people in this game in general claim that everything is the clerics fault. Which is just not true. Somethings are the cleric's fault, but it's almost always the cleric that gets blamed. And I've been in almost exclusively random squads for a long time, and cleric hasn't been my main in a long time. I still saw it. A good example is this long discussion about how a cleric MUST have CE or otherwise they are a fail. Or this long discussion about how BB is superior in 90% of instances, because it's somehow the cleric's responsibility to cover for fail DDs and not the DDs fault they died because they aren't using their skills. I mean, if you go to the cleric forums and look up at threads that are about clerics complaining about their bad experiences in squads from the cleric perspective. You'll still find comments from other classes about how fail clerics can be, even though that isn't' the topic being discussed. Clerics and tanks are the ones blamed the most when something goes wrong. Although Zan is right, you at least hear more complaints about sins than venos.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think it's kind of funny, because most barbs never spark while tanking because it uses up the chi they need to cast ream and devour. I mean have you ever tanked before? Most of my chi goes to, guess what, tanking. Meaning that I save my spark for staying alive. Nevermind the fact that the DD has a +7 weapon and the barb has a +2 one, we can obviously see who put more into their toon. This is my problem with a lot of clerics amd healers in general, they always claim someone is a bad sin (in particualar) because they got aggro and died. There are a lot of freaking variables that go into the aggro component, so to try and simplify it like that; you should slap yourself. Nevermind the fact that if a mob looks at most clerics funny they died instantly.

1) Focused mind is a 25% chance to make an attack 1 damage. Note: 25% CHANCE. And it doesn't block DoT's or special 1 shot skills some bosses have.

2) Ribstrike reduces attack speed by 50%, it does not reduce however how hard a boss hits. You know what does that? Frihten (barb skill), Myriad Sword Stance (BM skill), and Silent Seal (cleric skill).

3)Deaden nerves only restores 10% hp if it ticks, and if you are not charmed you're screwed anyway.

Clearly I have proven that it's a lot harder to mitigate damage as a sin than YOU think, and that other classes are the ones with the attack reducing debuffs that can in fact, be used on bosses. You are right, if you KNOW you can't handle aggro, you should try to keep it off of you, but some bosses have random aggro, and generally DD's have a higher crit rate than their tanky counterparts. I put more coin into my sin that any of my characters, but I can put the same amount into my barb and get a better tank. It requires a lot of coin for a sin to be able to tank bosses that one shot the 6k hp ones, while a barb or cleric can get in a squad with the bare minimum. You can't just simply equate it to a bad DD or fail DD, because **** happens. I can tank snake, pestilence, the water boss, and incarcerate (for a short while). On my sin, but the gear i switch into makes me extremely squad reliant. Aps drop=lower chi gain/less bp heals=more healing needed from, the cleric. 800mil coins into my sin >.<. I have never once been called a bad DD because I was doing my job, and i would castrate anyone that has the audacity to. Snake kills me if he goes into a long frenzy mode, it happens, but hey, I'm a bad sin because I got aggro and couldn't handle it right?

Usually when there is aggro pong it is between two sins or a sin and a bm. When that happens, amp their sparks and it will usually be enough to make you second place in the aggro chain. Sometimes the barbs try to steal aggro back and add to that. But usually that isn't the case. And sin was my main for a long time, longer than cleric. I did a lot more with less refines than a lot of other sins. Ribstrike reduces the attack rate of the boss. Less attacks means less damage taken in the same timeframe. It can be a HUGE benefit. Focused is great because it buys you time to spark immune, and the bosses it works well against hit you frequently enough that it's reducing a significant amount of damage. A lot of bosses worst attacks can be interrupted with knife throw or throatcut. Not all of them of course, but there is quite a few attacks out there that can be. Bosses with nasty debuffs, you can use tidal on. And the cleric should be up and purifying. The first time I soloed FC was at 94 on my sin. And by solo, I mean pot buffs only, no heals from my cleric or anyone else, no glitching the second boss. I got a lot done by not being so dismissive of all the ways sins have to mitigate damage. And not only relying on BP. And if you were able to handle your aggro, then you are not bad for taking it. You should take aggro if you can handle it for a couple of seconds. IT's the ones that can't that I have an issue with.

Thrieya - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I was more replying to the nothing is ever the clerics fault part. I think people in this game in general claim that everything is the clerics fault. Which is just not true. Somethings are the cleric's fault, but it's almost always the cleric that gets blamed. And I've been in almost exclusively random squads for a long time, and cleric hasn't been my main in a long time. I still saw it. A good example is this long discussion about how a cleric MUST have CE or otherwise they are a fail. Or this long discussion about how BB is superior in 90% of instances, because it's somehow the cleric's responsibility to cover for fail DDs and not the DDs fault they died because they aren't using their skills. I mean, if you go to the cleric forums and look up at threads that are about clerics complaining about their bad experiences in squads from the cleric perspective. You'll still find comments from other classes about how fail clerics can be, even though that isn't' the topic being discussed. Clerics and tanks are the ones blamed the most when something goes wrong. Although Zan is right, you at least hear more complaints about sins than venos.

And my own point is how I find DDs who can and do use all their skills to stay alive, and then they die anyway because the clerics didn't bother healing at all. In the cases I've outlined, I think it's perfectly clear how those were ultimately the cleric's fault for not healing properly. Clerics and tanks are the ones blamed the most when something goes wrong because most of the time, if one or both of them die, then the whole squad goes down. And the whole squad going down is, most often, the something that goes wrong.

ovenusarmanio

Thrieya - Lost City wrote: »

And my own point is how I find DDs who can and do use all their skills to stay alive, and then they die anyway because the clerics didn't bother healing at all. In the cases I've outlined, I think it's perfectly clear how those were ultimately the cleric's fault for not healing properly. Clerics and tanks are the ones blamed the most when something goes wrong because most of the time, if one or both of them die, then the whole squad goes down. And the whole squad going down is, most often, the something that goes wrong.

I wasn't disagreeing with that, only the "its never the cleric's fault" part.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Although Zan is right, you at least hear more complaints about sins than venos.

On Dreamweaver the cleric and barb are rarely blamed for things, unless the barb can't handle a pull. Most clerics on my server get a free pass on everything. My faction mates even complain about sins all day in their squads >.<.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Usually when there is aggro pong is about between two sins or a sin and a bm. Sometimes the barbs try to steal aggro back and add to that. But usually that isn't the case.

You realize that aggro for sins normally only bounced when one sin is going for at least 7-15 secs unsprked and the other one is? Aggro bounce between a sin and BM normally means the bm is more highly refined than the sin. In that case the BM normally wins if they constantly spark+DD.

Joe - Morai

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's a cop out, and it's quite sad you view being a perfectionist that way. Your mindset isn't perfectionism, it's ignorance. Ignorance to the fact that you can be wrong just like anyone else, and now that you have been proven wrong you come here with that bs excuse.

You analyze people? I highly doubt it. Analyzation involves knowing how others work, and you seem to lack that basic understanding. If you analyzed people you would know that any cleric doesnt NEED CE. If you analyzed people you would not expect them to do things the way YOU would like them. If you analyzed people you would have realized that your opinion is bs, and would have never even posted on this thread to begin with. See where I'm going with this? If you analyze people so well, I won't have to tell you.

Also have you ever even played a cleric? I've played a barb for 4-5 years, a sin for a year, and a cleric for a year, I think i have a better idea of what they can do. Hell I have no problems healing on my HA cleric even. CE is in efficient in some cases, accept that as a fact, just like BB is in some cases.

xD and you are doing the same mistake you think I was doing all along. You don't know me, you just assume one can't be that good for being able to judge other ppls playing style. Call it ignorance, but after playing ALL Classes for nearly 5 years now and actually trying things out with ANY CLASS.

So yes I've been playing clerics for so friggin long now. But thats not all. I've not just played all those classes. I talked with so many different players, tbh with some of the best players of nearly any class. I listened to their opinions and compared them to mine and discussed my playing style ideas with them. There have been months where I havn't done anything but talking about this game and it's classes.

If someone can judge other ppls playing style then I, for one, can. It's not like this is rl and anyone can do different things to achieve their goals. Even there, if you analyze the personal situation of ppl you can tell them what they did good and what not and how they could improve their working methods.

This is a game working due to known mechanics. There is no..."well it worked, that's all that matter". There are ways where things would always work if those ways were followed accurately. That is the thing. There shouldn't be stuff like squad wipes, no matter the gear. If anyone would play "perfectly" then everything would be fine.

Don't try to tell me that this is illusory, it is! Humans are imperfect, they can't achieve perfectionism....BUT you can guess what would be "perfect". Sometimes it just doesn't matter if you can achieve a goal or not. But it does matter if you work hard to achieve your goal...why? simple because that you will improve. You won't get perfect, but you surely improve. And that is what I am fighting for.

If you just tell anyone that it's ok how they play then they will never improve, correct me, but that is a bad thing isn't it?

You are this kind of person that thinks he knows so many about others, but obviously you are the very thing you thought I am. Don't be so closed minded.

PS: Sorry for the long post, I could write for an eternity about topics like that xDD so I better stop here. (: