Plevel noobs

WannaBM - Archosaur

I just had the perfect illustration of what i think about this whole notion of plvled noobs and the people that blame those so called pleveled noobs.

I join a cannon BH. There is a proper G16+7 seeker so i set out to pull half fire.

I ask the cleric for 3xIH. So i can wait till i got those 3IHs so that i dont run too early and get into mob range while she is still casting an IH and i dont needlessly wait to see if any more are comming. She casts IH, she casts a second IH, then nothing... Oh well, then ill run with 2 IHs, to bad i have been fruitlessly wasting 2 or 3 seconds waiting for the third one..... Not a big deal, but i just wonder why ???

So i pull. Seeker puts up his vortex . Cleric does nothing. Squad wipe.

Next try. I pull, seeker puts up his vortex, cleric puts his BB about 1 screen away. Fortunately i have recently obtained stomp of the king so i am able to hold some agro from the seeker and we live for a little while more. The BB stops, the cleric moves. no new BB though.... Squad wipe again.

I check the cleric and see she does not have cloud eruption on her genie. I dont want to tell here shes a noob etc, i try to be a bit friendly, i just make the suggestion to get cloud eruption so she can move BB when needed. Whats the answer?

"I am not a pleveled noob, i played this char since 2009 and did all the quests !"
b:surrender

ovenusarmanio

Eh, it's not a huge deal if she don't have CE. She should however had said that at the very start. And carried some chi pots. So that she had BB ready when it was needed. Also, just because you don't have BB doesn't mean you shouldn't be healing. There is chromatic, IH, and wings of protection, etc that can help you stall in the meantime. This cleric would not have been good even with CE, more than likely.

WannaBM - Archosaur

I know, i am not saying that not having CE is the source of noobness, i just wanted to give her a little pointer how she could improve things. But she was not open for suggestions because "she was not a plevel noob"

ovenusarmanio

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I know, i am not saying that not having CE is the source of noobness, i just wanted to give her a little pointer how she could improve things. But she was not open for suggestions because "she was not a plevel noob"

Like I said, she'd fail even with CE. There are some older players that are problems too. They have attitudes, or stuck doing things the old way, and refuse to admit that someone else might have a good idea on ways to improve. I'd BL and move on because unlike a p.level noob, that's probably as good as she is going to get.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

And this is exactly why i dislike BB-Clerics. You can heal without BB perfectly fine in most cases. There have been several occasions were BB will just get knocked down anyway. You should be on the ready to heal without it. Clerics have Guardian of light and plume shell for them so if they take a little heal aggro they don't die. Clerics have access to 5 healing skills, including BB, excluding Blessing of the Purehearted (WTF were you thinkin PWE?). =/ Each of those skills is beneficial in different situations.

Joe - Morai

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Eh, it's not a huge deal if she don't have CE. She should however had said that at the very start. And carried some chi pots. So that she had BB ready when it was needed. Also, just because you don't have BB doesn't mean you shouldn't be healing. There is chromatic, IH, and wings of protection, etc that can help you stall in the meantime. This cleric would not have been good even with CE, more than likely.

No. There is just no reason for not having CE on the clerics genie. Just no. There is no effort in skilling it on the genie and absolutely no other options for clerics that would somehow prevent skilling CE. The only excuse I would accept is if they would at least skill Chi Siphon.

A cleric without constant chi is like a seeker without constant chi. A waste of server space. It's that simple. Ok ppl can play the way they want but being ignorant and giving away so many playing power is just unbelieveable, especially if it is true that this guy was playing since 2009.

I don't really care how ppl play and stuff but they should at least do their friggin homework otherwise they deserve it to be insulted as noobs. Noob = newby = newcomer = a little experienced person. Seems appropriate and it's not really an insult.

But for real now. Playing the game as long as I did and not even able to skill CE on their genie...seriously? For me the minimum I expect from ppl playing that long is that they at least know the basic skilling and playing of ALL FRIGGIN CLASSES like I do. What were they doing all these years? Looking at their beautiful fashion or what?!

Like I said. PPLL that don't do their homework are nubs and will get a bad rating from the teacher =P nah, but they don't have to be surprised if they are put in the underclass section of players.

I suggest one just kicks out ppl that are actually that bad at playing forcing them to somehow get themselves covered with some knowledge and skill.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Joe - Morai wrote: »

No. There is just no reason for not having CE on the clerics genie. Just no. There is no effort in skilling it on the genie and absolutely no other options for clerics that would somehow prevent skilling CE. The only excuse I would accept is if they would at least skill Chi Siphon.

A cleric without constant chi is like a seeker without constant chi. A waste of server space. It's that simple. Ok ppl can play the way they want but being ignorant and giving away so many playing power is just unbelieveable, especially if it is true that this guy was playing since 2009.

I don't really care how ppl play and stuff but they should at least do their friggin homework otherwise they deserve it to be insulted as noobs. Noob = newby = newcomer = a little experienced person. Seems appropriate and it's not really an insult.

But for real now. Playing the game as long as I did and not even able to skill CE on their genie...seriously? For me the minimum I expect from ppl playing that long is that they at least know the basic skilling and playing of ALL FRIGGIN CLASSES like I do. What were they doing all these years? Looking at their beautiful fashion or what?!

Like I said. PPLL that don't do their homework are nubs and will get a bad rating from the teacher =P nah, but they don't have to be surprised if they are put in the underclass section of players.

I suggest one just kicks out ppl that are actually that bad at playing forcing them to somehow get themselves covered with some knowledge and skill.

You don't need CE on a genie to play a cleric, they have apo for that, and sage chi skill, and veno's. I have played everyclass except mystic, you don't need CE to do your job well. Even on barbs, it's nice, but after a pulls you should have full chi. Knowing how to space your chi usage out plays a big role, but someone who relies on CE obviously never really learns that.

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I know, i am not saying that not having CE is the source of noobness, i just wanted to give her a little pointer how she could improve things. But she was not open for suggestions because "she was not a plevel noob"

OMG thank you for posting this. This has been bothering me for sometime, and the PLing has gotten out of control, and it's especiallly obvious with the healers.

It's not that the cleric you had is still way way WAY behind in learning how to use her skills. Its that she's not willing to be taught. And that's what really bugs me.

The essential skills are taught one piece at a time if you level up properly...

Learning to IH at the right time before aggroing is learned at BH29
Learning to IH from max distance learned in BH39 with farren
Learning to purify the tank at BH51 with wyvern

So on, and so forth.

And its not enough to say "well i know that I have to do that." You have to PRACTICE over and over. It has to be second nature... that without looking at your keyboard, you can purify in a half a second when it needs it... that you know how to respond with BB or squad heal. That you can determine when to use wellspring and when to use IH. You simply can't know it in your head. It has to be so instinctual, that when a new situation presents itself, you can rely on your well built experience.

I started as a cleric. Even when i got to level 80 and started to FC, I really didn't understand all my skills. But i understood enough to be able to heal and purify at the bubble boss, and figure out where to place my BB on pulls. I was told i was a pro cleric, but knowing how much I didnt know, I didn't believe it.

... that is, until I leveled up my BM and went to instances with other clerics. By then. the power leveling had already gotten out of control. And when you see a level 90 cleric individually buff each member of the squad after squad buffing, or IH the barb because his HP is going down during the pull, it makes you wanna cry. And if you say as polite as possible, that she's overwriting her hour buff, they rage quits. The madness just has to stop.

Well, in the end, you can't do much about it. I mean, there's people in the real world who climb the ladder of success way faster than their intelligence deserves, based on unreasonable "power leveling" of their wit and charm... or whatever... it's the new world of PWI... power level so you can play the game at 100 where all the real action is.

And I commend those who power level, but take the time to train themselves and learn from others in the same class. In today's PWI, that's I think the best we can ask for.

Joe - Morai

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You don't need CE on a genie to play a cleric, they have apo for that, and sage chi skill, and veno's. I have played everyclass except mystic, you don't need CE to do your job well. Even on barbs, it's nice, but after a pulls you should have full chi. Knowing how to space your chi usage out plays a big role, but someone who relies on CE obviously never really learns that.

It's not that they can't do it without CE, but they then have to waste precious Apo stuff that could actually safe their lifes and their squadmates. Support Clerics need their genie for Holy Path and Cloud Eruption only. It all depends on how they use their skills and how skilled they are in the first place.

It's just sad that ppl that are playing this game for years arn't able to utilize the max out of even one class. That's really really sad =(

Honestly I hate player that rely on other classes. I WOULD NEVER rely on the Veno for pushing some chi for me nvm with wchich class I'm currently playing. You learn the game the best if you play like you were alone. If the others fail you should be the one that at least tries to finish the job alone (if thats not impossible ofc).

Most ppl just let themselves die too if the cleric or the tank die. This is a kicking reason for me and unacceptable just because they could sometimes finish the mob group or w/e anyways, even without the cleric or the tank. But that would ofc require that they actually know how to play (:

Unfortunatly such players are merely 1 in 100 others...main reason why I refuse to run with random squads these days. I will not blast out my apo and stuff and doing the whole work for others that are practically useless. No ty.

Be productive or quit. Sounds mean but I'm not the only one that is very pis.sed off because of those casual player nubs. Most ppl don't even try to improve, they just don't care, so I don't care about them as well (:

Toxie - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You don't need CE on a genie to play a cleric, they have apo for that, and sage chi skill, and veno's. I have played everyclass except mystic, you don't need CE to do your job well. Even on barbs, it's nice, but after a pulls you should have full chi. Knowing how to space your chi usage out plays a big role, but someone who relies on CE obviously never really learns that.

Not every cleric is sage, and not every squad has a veno (although they should!) that will pass sparks, hell that even know that skill exists -.- I have CE on my genie but find I rarely use it, because for one thing I like saving genie for holy path to keep up with barbs pulling, and I will usually drop BB when it's safe to just IH squad and get enough chi for the next BB.

Also, I'd like to save my apo usage to something like IG instead of chi.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Heh, to get back on CE on the genie, it doesnt have anything to do with wanting to holy path. It doesnt have anything to do with sage being able to provide chi.

When i play a cleric and i put up BB, the first thing i do after that is CE so that i am back to 2 sparks again. Right after casting BB that is, not waiting until it is down. And you really dont want to go cast fricking master li when your BB just got interupted. Just always have the sparks. But again, i didnt really post to discuss how important CE is or not...

ovenusarmanio

Toxie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not every cleric is sage, and not every squad has a veno (although they should!) that will pass sparks, hell that even know that skill exists -.- I have CE on my genie but find I rarely use it, because for one thing I like saving genie for holy path to keep up with barbs pulling, and I will usually drop BB when it's safe to just IH squad and get enough chi for the next BB.

Also, I'd like to save my apo usage to something like IG instead of chi.

This. Although sage clerics and people who run with veno friends usually have even less reason to not use CE. I wasn't saying that no cleric should use CE, I've always found CE to be useful and it is on my cleric's genie. But it depends on what the cleric spends their time doing, not every cleric you run into in BH spends all their time as a support cleric. Some just PvP and don't have that skill in favor of other skills, some mostly solo grind, some usually run in static squads that includes a veno, etc, etc. Not every cleric's genie must have CE, and they are not a noob for not having it. It's a very useful skill to be sure, but it is not a required skill and based on what they spend the majority of their time doing and who they are doing it with, it might not even be the wisest option.

Joe - Morai wrote: »

It's not that they can't do it without CE, but they then have to waste precious Apo stuff that could actually safe their lifes and their squadmates. Support Clerics need their genie for Holy Path and Cloud Eruption only. It all depends on how they use their skills and how skilled they are in the first place.

It's just sad that ppl that are playing this game for years arn't able to utilize the max out of even one class. That's really really sad =(

Honestly I hate player that rely on other classes. I WOULD NEVER rely on the Veno for pushing some chi for me nvm with wchich class I'm currently playing. You learn the game the best if you play like you were alone. If the others fail you should be the one that at least tries to finish the job alone (if thats not impossible ofc).

Most ppl just let themselves die too if the cleric or the tank die. This is a kicking reason for me and unacceptable just because they could sometimes finish the mob group or w/e anyways, even without the cleric or the tank. But that would ofc require that they actually know how to play (:

Unfortunatly such players are merely 1 in 100 others...main reason why I refuse to run with random squads these days. I will not blast out my apo and stuff and doing the whole work for others that are practically useless. No ty.

Be productive or quit. Sounds mean but I'm not the only one that is very pis.sed off because of those casual player nubs. Most ppl don't even try to improve, they just don't care, so I don't care about them as well (:

You don't know anything about a random cleric you'd meet in BH, so you don't know if CE would be the genie skill they should use. Obviously the cleric in the OP was terrible at chi management, and was terrible, but not every cleric wants to use CE for various good reasons. This is the difference between wanting them to know how to play their class, and wanting them to do it only your way.

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Support Clerics need their genie for Holy Path and Cloud Eruption only.

Do you seriously mean this?

If your a smart support cleric, you will fill your genie with defensive options to help keep you alive while you are trying to keep your squad alive. The emphasis on getting cloud eruption I think is warranted. But to say that it's a must...nuh uh. Lots of pro clerics out there have no need of a chi skill on their genie.

If you are still learning your cleric, then yes, CE (or chi syphon) would be a great asset. But eventually I think a good cleric will learn that that precious genie skill spot could be better served with a defensive skill.

Joe - Morai

Miss_menace - Raging Tide wrote: »

Do you seriously mean this?

If your a smart support cleric, you will fill your genie with defensive options to help keep you alive while you are trying to keep your squad alive. The emphasis on getting cloud eruption I think is warranted. But to say that it's a must...nuh uh. Lots of pro clerics out there have no need of a chi skill on their genie.

If you are still learning your cleric, then yes, CE (or chi syphon) would be a great asset. But eventually I think a good cleric will learn that that precious genie skill spot could be better served with a defensive skill.

I don't have to mention using AD or Expel, that is common sense. If I would have to mention anything about any class then my post would exceed this forum by far...no good in doing so xD

I know some of the best clerics in this whole game. If the clerics are geared and skilled decently they can even boost the dmg for the whole squad and keep up with their healing stuff...if!

And btw there are not so many defensive skills for a cleric that could be appropriate cept for AD and Expel in PvE. YOu could surely use a pure dex genie for ind shield which is great but I suggest using a full Vit/mag genie for your more important skills to use.

AND any genie under at least 71 LP is not considered a genie at all. They are so cheap these days and ppl always underestimate good genies. If you use them correctly they can make a gigantic difference in PvE as well as in PvP for any class.

The problem is that most guys don't know anything about this and are runnign around with 4x-ish lp genies and wonder why others can do way better then them. Redicolous!

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

You don't know anything about a random cleric you'd meet in BH, so you don't know if CE would be the genie skill they should use. Obviously the cleric in the OP was terrible at chi management, and was terrible, but not every cleric wants to use CE for various good reasons. This is the difference between wanting them to know how to play their class, and wanting them to do it only your way.

Thats not my way. If a cleric can do all the things he needs to do even without CE then it's ok (: but as far as I noticed so far many clerics can't handle their chi management and I for one will not wait for the cleric to chi up. I even dont wait if I know they dont have HP ready. They can use running pills like all others do as well. They can't if they have to waste it on chi e.g. .

I expect nothing but the maximum of any player. If I play with my cleric I can keep up with any barb got always maxed chi and am always rdy to start healing in w/e form. The worst thing is to let your squad wait because you don't know how to play decently.

OFC I know playing like this is stressful and not anyone wanna have this kinda stress. But it's a challenge, it's hard to get that good and to know your class that well. That's why I don't run with randoms any more. It may be stress but it safes time. Time for me, is the most precious thing. If one wastes my time, then I'll get very angry xDDD

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

This. Although sage clerics and people who run with veno friends usually have even less reason to not use CE. I wasn't saying that no cleric should use CE, I've always found CE to be useful and it is on my cleric's genie. But it depends on what the cleric spends their time doing, not every cleric you run into in BH spends all their time as a support cleric. Some just PvP and don't have that skill in favor of other skills, some mostly solo grind, some usually run in static squads that includes a veno, etc, etc. Not every cleric's genie must have CE, and they are not a noob for not having it. It's a very useful skill to be sure, but it is not a required skill and based on what they spend the majority of their time doing and who they are doing it with, it might not even be the wisest option.

Am I the only one who builds PvP & PvE genies? I actually also got event genie but thats beside the point. Well not really beside the point. I got a proper genie for everything I do `cept maybe my PK genie with terrible LP points, 1k+ mirages down and few hundred million spirit later still no 81+ <.<.

If you dont have CE & holypath on your genie as a cleric on genie you use for BHs/FWs/etc. You are an idiot, period. Yes, you can compensate for the lack of it but thats wasting a lot of **** just to compensate. Of course we can find situation where CEless genie might work better but I like to build genie that works well for pretty much anything and not situational **** thats actually good 1% of the time.

The real problem is people who dont want to listen, who take offense if you offer your help in telling the hell they are supposed to do. That really hasnt got anything to do with p.leveling, in my experience p.leveled players are more willing to take advice than the dead set on their ways older players who will suck till the end of time. Then again nothing annoys me more than teaching somebody what they are supposed to do, let time pass and they go back to their old ways, wiping themselves and squad. Well no, pretty hard to wipe me these days in BH but still annoying to go godmode just cause ppl suck so bad <.<.

Untamed_pain - Archosaur

It's not just clerics that are plvl noobs i know a veno and a few others that are just smh bad lol but anyways. My cleric is my alt 101 and of course i have CE. my cleric is pve only for the most part. I usually have BB ready. I rarely have veno in squad for chi so i got that down pretty well i think to keep up with chi and yes my cleric is sage.

I even have CE on my veno so i can pass chi she is demon...CE on my seeker who is sage etc lol

WannaBM - Archosaur

Joe - Morai wrote: »

AND any genie under at least 71 LP is not considered a genie at all.

Hey i am very damn happy with my 70/100 genie !!! b:angry

55 magic, 106 vit.

Holy path
TOP
AD
CE
earthflame

Can cast 3x holy path in chain, is always nice.
Can cast holy path + AD which is very nice in pulls where you need AD to enable yourself to Invoke without getting the cast interupted. (metal primarily)

Only reason i would go for a genie with more luckpoints is to add EP/mire to it. But since there usually are others with those skills i didnt feel the need to spend 7m on a genie that can only learn one of those 2 or 20m+ for a genie that can learn both. b:surrender

Toliman - Raging Tide

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

...
If you dont have CE & holypath on your genie as a cleric on genie you use for BHs/FWs/etc. You are an idiot, period. Yes, you can compensate for the lack of it but thats wasting a lot of **** just to compensate. Of course we can find situation where CEless genie might work better but I like to build genie that works well for pretty much anything and not situational **** thats actually good 1% of the time
...

Waiting for WC message:
"LFM BH ... pm class, link weapon and genie"

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

I carry CE, holy path, expel, domain, and ToP on my cleric's genie, which I coincidentally also use on seeker and archer. Now as for putting up BB when pulling fire path - this is something I think most clerics know by now doesn't work well. The mobs on fire path interrupt, knocking out BB, DB, and vortex. BoA might just stay up if the archer is out of range of the interrupts. A smart cleric would heal from range whomever is taking the hits. Mind that playing juggle the aggro is annoying for clerics. I did have a cleric tonight that proceeded to holy path into the middle of my pull on fire path and put up BB. Having no BM in squad to stun, BB immediately went down. The seeker, sin, archer, and cleric all died. What was left standing was me and some 5.5k hp veno (who was attacking at range). We finished off the pull ourselves.

I'll admit part fault here in this case for pulling a large group when there was no BM to stun and prevent the aoes. b:surrender At the very least I pulled a group that I felt the squad would have been capable of taking out if everyone did their part properly. Even though the cleric died, the pull got done "successfully".

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

Joe - Morai wrote: »

And btw there are not so many defensive skills for a cleric that could be appropriate cept for AD and Expel in PvE. YOu could surely use a pure dex genie for ind shield which is great but I suggest using a full Vit/mag genie for your more important skills to use.

Yes for PvE i agree. And I guess that's what this whole CE discussion is referring to (no offense to the OP who really didnt see this discussion coming... but you have to admit... it's interesting!). I'm still not convinced that a pro PvE cleric needs a chi skill on their genie. I think its a luxury you can put on if you have the room.

A pro cleric watches where the damage is going from a boss. They understand how hard the aoe hits and how often. They watch who is tanking, and boost defense to a squishy sin who is barely staying alive even with BB up. If you can barely stay alive yourself as a cleric unless you yourself are in a BB, you probably need to take a second look at your gear defenses.

A genie is such a personal thing and clerics who are more than just BB and aoe healers can really get creative with what genie skills they decide to learn. Not every squad I run with needs BB. Some of them are so good, that by the time your BB is up, you realize all it was doing was wasting two of your sparks.

And to digress for a sec... but I'll come back.

I have a level 101 alt veno (my mains are cleric and BM), and when i first tried the new daily veno instance... OMG...i saw just how noob i was. But after a few weeks now of really trying hard every day to succeed, I'm getting to hang of it... switching to fox form and timing it out so i can purge and then get back to attacking my guards. It's a great eye-opener to those who thought maybe they understood how to use their veno skills, but really are far from pro. The practice I get daily is awesome!

I would love to see similar instances for EVERY class. Something completely specific for clerics, for example, where you have to know your skills inside out to succeed. It would certainly shed some light on the lack of skill some didn't realize was there when they try the instance out.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I know, i am not saying that not having CE is the source of noobness, i just wanted to give her a little pointer how she could improve things. But she was not open for suggestions because "she was not a plevel noob"

Joe - Morai wrote: »

It's not that they can't do it without CE, but they then have to waste precious Apo stuff that could actually safe their lifes and their squadmates. Support Clerics need their genie for Holy Path and Cloud Eruption only. It all depends on how they use their skills and how skilled they are in the first place.

It's just sad that ppl that are playing this game for years arn't able to utilize the max out of even one class. That's really really sad =(

Honestly I hate player that rely on other classes. I WOULD NEVER rely on the Veno for pushing some chi for me nvm with wchich class I'm currently playing. You learn the game the best if you play like you were alone. If the others fail you should be the one that at least tries to finish the job alone (if thats not impossible ofc).

Most ppl just let themselves die too if the cleric or the tank die. This is a kicking reason for me and unacceptable just because they could sometimes finish the mob group or w/e anyways, even without the cleric or the tank. But that would ofc require that they actually know how to play (:

Unfortunatly such players are merely 1 in 100 others...main reason why I refuse to run with random squads these days. I will not blast out my apo and stuff and doing the whole work for others that are practically useless. No ty.

Be productive or quit. Sounds mean but I'm not the only one that is very pis.sed off because of those casual player nubs. Most ppl don't even try to improve, they just don't care, so I don't care about them as well (:

While I have CE on my genie I raaaaarreeellly use it. Only BB need's chi for healings. And I'd rather have Holy Path to keep up with the pullers than be ready to BB when BB is not needed the majority of the time it is used. Big full pulls in WS? Okay you MIGHT need to BB in Metal especially. Pull of Fire? Don't' BB it's gonna get interrupted just AoE heal and while is in CD use other heals and skills to save the party. I'm sorry but saying its a waste of a cleric to now have CE is stupid. A REAL cleric knows how to heal in any situation.

EDIT: As for not waiting if your cleric is ready.... That one is on YOU. If I say "one sec Chi or Genie on CD" and you roll on into the throes of danger I am NOT chasing you. I am going to wait and watch as you die or use up all your own resources to stay alive. Playing in a team is a team effort, I don't have to waste my resources healing you if you don't have the common courtesy to wait if I ask for a second to get ready for the next pull.

Joe - Morai

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I carry CE, holy path, expel, domain, and ToP on my cleric's genie, which I coincidentally also use on seeker and archer. Now as for putting up BB when pulling fire path - this is something I think most clerics know by now doesn't work well. The mobs on fire path interrupt, knocking out BB, DB, and vortex. BoA might just stay up if the archer is out of range of the interrupts. A smart cleric would heal from range whomever is taking the hits. Mind that playing juggle the aggro is annoying for clerics. I did have a cleric tonight that proceeded to holy path into the middle of my pull on fire path and put up BB. Having no BM in squad to stun, BB immediately went down. The seeker, sin, archer, and cleric all died. What was left standing was me and some 5.5k hp veno (who was attacking at range). We finished off the pull ourselves.

I'll admit part fault here in this case for pulling a large group when there was no BP to stun and prevent the aoes. b:surrender At the very least I pulled a group that I felt the squad would have been capable of taking out if everyone did their part properly. Even though the cleric died, the pull got done "successfully".

Well while pulling fire path I always do and suggest the cleric to wait til someone took aggro like Seeker or barb and then just AD/Ironguard or Fortify Ironguard and but up the bubble like that (if doing full pulls ofc) if the seeker and barb are decently geared and use the exact same combo then the cleric isn't needed at the first place. But even if the squad doesn't manage to kill all mobs in this 12 sec time span then they should be able to kill at least some of those mobs and being eventually able to kill the rest even without a BB.

Unfortunatly I see less to no ppl who make use out of Iron Guard or Pan Gu essences in PvE, thats a pitty as well. But if they rather waste their apo for chi =P

ovenusarmanio

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Am I the only one who builds PvP & PvE genies? I actually also got event genie but thats beside the point. Well not really beside the point. I got a proper genie for everything I do `cept maybe my PK genie with terrible LP points, 1k+ mirages down and few hundred million spirit later still no 81+ <.<.

If you dont have CE & holypath on your genie as a cleric on genie you use for BHs/FWs/etc. You are an idiot, period. Yes, you can compensate for the lack of it but thats wasting a lot of **** just to compensate. Of course we can find situation where CEless genie might work better but I like to build genie that works well for pretty much anything and not situational **** thats actually good 1% of the time.

The real problem is people who dont want to listen, who take offense if you offer your help in telling the hell they are supposed to do. That really hasnt got anything to do with p.leveling, in my experience p.leveled players are more willing to take advice than the dead set on their ways older players who will suck till the end of time. Then again nothing annoys me more than teaching somebody what they are supposed to do, let time pass and they go back to their old ways, wiping themselves and squad. Well no, pretty hard to wipe me these days in BH but still annoying to go godmode just cause ppl suck so bad <.<.

1% of the time? If a person does BH for 20 minutes each day, and then spends the rest of their time solo grinding for say another 2 hours each day. Perhaps throwing in some duo TT with a BM friend, occasionally. Which they can easily survive without the use of apo and thus chi pots are a viable option. Then on the weekends they do nation wars and some 1v1 pvp with a few friends, while chatting. None of what I just listed was an abnormal way for a cleric to spend their time. And they also working on their gear, so they are improving. So the majority of the time they are not going to need CE. So why should they build a genie only for BH? And waste a genie skill on CE when they have a genie that works for them in all these other situations where they spend the vast majority of their time? So someone doesn't call them fail because they don't spend their time the same way you do? You're making a lot of assumptions about a person if you think that they are a p.level noob or a fail old player, because they don't play the same way you do.

P.Level noobs are usualy people that don't know how ot play their class, let alone how to build a proper genie. They are fail because they have not learned any better.

But older players are a big part of the problem too. They become set in their ways and only want to people to play a certain way down to apparently even the genie.

They rush them through BH without saying a word
They pressure them to p.level
They refuse to play with them in at level squads, often going "lead pls" and inviting their main without asking. The ones who do that also often expect you to be ever so grateful you ruined their chance at getting some good squad play in.
All of this leads to people deciding to become p.level noobs who don't yet have the expenses to level their skills let alone already have good gear or even less on the radar good genies.
Then they get all this pressure not only to do their job, but to do it ONLY the way that someone else wants them to do it. Because people make a LOT of assumptions on how other's are spending their time.

Is it any wonder new player retention is so low? PWE is part of the problem, but stuff like this is part of the problem. And yes I have CE on my genie on my cleric. People who don't want to listen, people who are unwilling to teach and instead kick without explanation, people who do passive aggressive things to get back at people, people who have too many demands on others (and yes, some demands are reasonable. They shouldn't slow down the squad a ton, or cause wipes, etc. But if they are doing their job, the rest is their business), etc are all contributing too the p.level noob problem. And it's problem that is frustrating to all levels and types of players.

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Well while pulling fire path I always do and suggest the cleric to wait til someone took aggro like Seeker or barb and then just AD/Ironguard or Fortify Ironguard and but up the bubble like that (if doing full pulls ofc) if the seeker and barb are decently geared and use the exact same combo then the cleric isn't needed at the first place. But even if the squad doesn't manage to kill all mobs in this 12 sec time span then they should be able to kill at least some of those mobs and being eventually able to kill the rest even without a BB.

Unfortunatly I see less to no ppl who make use out of Iron Guard or Pan Gu essences in PvE, thats a pitty as well. But if they rather waste their apo for chi =P

I agree with that it would be nice if more players used apoth. I used it all the time back in the day. But I don't really care what they use, so long as they do their job. Don't add TOO much time to a run. (I'm not gonna cry over a couple of minutes.) And tell me ahead of time if they have some kind of limitation. Too often people are silent in squads, and only tell ou they weren't actually ready to do their job AFTER the wipe. That's the biggest problem I have with clerics who not only don't have CE, but don't manage chi well. If they told me, I could give them some tips. And wait for them. But don't have the barb rushing in with 2 ihes into a pull when you know full well you don't have chi for BB, and he's gonna need it.

Toliman - Raging Tide

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

1% of the time? If a person does BH for 20 minutes each day, and then spends the rest of their time solo grinding for say another 2 hours each day. Perhaps throwing in some duo TT with a BM friend, occasionally. Which they can easily survive without the use of apo and thus chi pots are a viable option. Then on the weekends they do nation wars and some 1v1 pvp with a few friends, while chatting. None of what I just listed was an abnormal way for a cleric to spend their time. And they also working on their gear, so they are improving. So the majority of the time they are not going to need CE. So why should they build a genie only for BH? And waste a genie skill on CE when they have a genie that works for them in all these other situations where they spend the vast majority of their time? So someone doesn't call them fail because they don't spend their time the same way you do? You're making a lot of assumptions about a person if you think that they are a p.level noob or a fail old player, because they don't play the same way you do.
...
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And it's problem that is frustrating to all levels and types of players.
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I have CE on my Cleric and Wizard.

I had not used it even once on my Cleric (except for test).

I have not Holy Path on any of my 4 genies, although I know, how it work and used it at Wizard at other account (rare).

I never used it ( Holy Path) at this my character (prefer to die instead of run - useless run).

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

not all players are members of a faction that have a base, and those that are - not all bases have alchemy labs leveled up far enough to get pan gu essences. True there are other apos that give a similar effect - they drop in AEU for instance. Tonight I used 5 IGs in warsong (which I don't normally do, I just happened to have some on me and experimented with new combos) and a couple of vacuity potions as well. Didn't use the IG On fire though. I used only solid shield and invoke there to reduce damage taken. I use the IG potions on water/wood pulls to buy some time of immunity from bubbles. Domain + IG is a handy combo to use for classes that dont have an anti stun skill to block the stun effect of IG - but Domain takes a lot of genie energy. If the cleric is double Holy Pathing on a long pull - that takes about 150 energy right there, which leaves no energy for domain unless you've got a lot of VIT on your genie. If (s)hes using apoth to keep up - then IG won't be available for two minutes (or whatever the actual cool down time is on apo). I'm honestly at a loss how you expect someone to keep up with you on a long pull as well as BB with a doman + IG combo. As for fortify, I've not ever experimented with that skill myself. I'd have to look into it to see what the energy costs are. Honestly though, I wouldn't be excited when playing on cleric to be demanded that I use an IG on a pull.

Then there's the cost of apoth. On my server, IG goes for about 40k and Vacuity for about 20k. I don't mind using a Vac or the odd shadowbinder I get from AEU in Delta or Warsong. But when we start needing IG constantly, the costs go up. There really are other ways to do things than to spam IG pills constantly. Pulling earth for instance can be done with Barb level 79 anti stun -> domain right when it is about to end -> pop a vacuity or shadowbinder. The damage immunity is nice, I'll admit, but not necessary.

Miss_menace - Raging Tide

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

But older players are a big part of the problem too. They become set in their ways and only want to people to play a certain way down to apparently even the genie.

By "older players" I'm assuming you mean veterans of the game, not "old" in real life.

I leveled my cleric in FC squads back in 2010. Back then, there was no "rock reset" at the start of the white assassin mob pull. We all assumed we did that in two parts because we had not yet witnessed a sin who could go solo the shade for us after the bishop boss was dead. After all, 5 aps didnt even exist yet. And there were only a handful of level 100s on the server, and the cleric was the difference between life and death on the second boss who randomly bubbles squad members.

A year ago, i decided to leveled a second cleric to go demon just for the fun of it, and these days, the FC run looks really different. I dare say... there is one major change that annoys me to no end... and I will dare to say it... when I saw a squad "glitch" the bubble boss.

I truly believe that as a cleric, when i first went into FC, it was the first time I witnessed many of my skills in context. Now, they are letting these clerics off the hook on the boss where they are the MOST essential.

You can blame clerics all you want for being noobs, but when you find shortcuts like this that get them off the hook, I'm not sure the cleric themselves is the only one to blame.

All this to say: "THE OLD-SCHOOL WAY IS NOT ALWAYS THE INFERIOR APPROACH."

Take it with a grain of salt... most new and innovative systems of running instances... they are awesome. But sometimes, it's nice to know that the veterans who ran warsong before viles, and delta before spawn point, know quite a bit more than the youngin's who never knew who it used to be done.

I don't PK, but my friend oked this seeker to dual my BM. I was nervous but tried my best using all the PvE knowledge i had. The result was me stun locking him and winning the duel. The seeker said "Wow i was stunned the whole time, I couldnt even attack once." and my friend smirked and said "Yeah, she's an old school BM." I liked the sound of that

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

Miss_menace - Raging Tide wrote: »

By "older players" I'm assuming you mean veterans of the game, not "old" in real life.

I leveled my cleric in FC squads back in 2010. Back then, there was no "rock reset" at the start of the white assassin mob pull. We all assumed we did that in two parts because we had not yet witnessed a sin who could go solo the shade for us after the bishop boss was dead. After all, 5 aps didnt even exist yet. And there were only a handful of level 100s on the server, and the cleric was the difference between life and death on the second boss who randomly bubbles squad members.

A year ago, i decided to leveled a second cleric to go demon just for the fun of it, and these days, the FC run looks really different. I dare say... there is one major change that annoys me to no end... and I will dare to say it... when I saw a squad "glitch" the bubble boss.

I truly believe that as a cleric, when i first went into FC, it was the first time I witnessed many of my skills in context. Now, they are letting these clerics off the hook on the boss where they are the MOST essential.

You can blame clerics all you want for being noobs, but when you find shortcuts like this that get them off the hook, I'm not sure the cleric themselves is the only one to blame.

All this to say: "THE OLD-SCHOOL WAY IS NOT ALWAYS THE INFERIOR APPROACH."

Take it with a grain of salt... most new and innovative systems of running instances... they are awesome. But sometimes, it's nice to know that the veterans who ran warsong before viles, and delta before spawn point, know quite a bit more than the youngin's who never knew who it used to be done.

I don't PK, but my friend oked this seeker to dual my BM. I was nervous but tried my best using all the PvE knowledge i had. The result was me stun locking him and winning the duel. The seeker said "Wow i was stunned the whole time, I couldnt even attack once." and my friend smirked and said "Yeah, she's an old school BM." I liked the sound of that

I wish this Forum had a Thumbs up System because this is a pro post. This is exactly how I feel about being a "veteran" player. I still play with my old-school mind. Especially when ti comes to my Cleric, BM (who was Axe/Fists before it was cool and APS came into true fruition, and my Venomancer. Sure i have advanced my tactics and I am all for other peoples input, but unless you are dying or failing horribly don't tell me how to play my class and I won't tell you how to play yours.

Speaking of my venomancer, just the other day I had to kindly remind the squad to stop using their genies and chi apoths as I was filling their chi for them (and they didn't seem to notice until I said something because I'm not a veno that waits for someone to ask for chi. I simply watch the squad and what skills they are using, if I know it takes a good amount of chi, I send a spark (minus APS classes when a boss is at high health or sins who make their own chi). I got the best compliment I have had in awhile and that was "It's nice to see that there are still team players on this game. You are an excellent venomancer." That made me beam with pride that playing my way isn't always the bad choice.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

You cant` rely on random people in this game,if you will, you will mostly die b:surrender

ovenusarmanio

Miss_menace - Raging Tide wrote: »

By "older players" I'm assuming you mean veterans of the game, not "old" in real life.

I leveled my cleric in FC squads back in 2010. Back then, there was no "rock reset" at the start of the white assassin mob pull. We all assumed we did that in two parts because we had not yet witnessed a sin who could go solo the shade for us after the bishop boss was dead. After all, 5 aps didnt even exist yet. And there were only a handful of level 100s on the server, and the cleric was the difference between life and death on the second boss who randomly bubbles squad members.

A year ago, i decided to leveled a second cleric to go demon just for the fun of it, and these days, the FC run looks really different. I dare say... there is one major change that annoys me to no end... and I will dare to say it... when I saw a squad "glitch" the bubble boss.

I truly believe that as a cleric, when i first went into FC, it was the first time I witnessed many of my skills in context. Now, they are letting these clerics off the hook on the boss where they are the MOST essential.

You can blame clerics all you want for being noobs, but when you find shortcuts like this that get them off the hook, I'm not sure the cleric themselves is the only one to blame.

All this to say: "THE OLD-SCHOOL WAY IS NOT ALWAYS THE INFERIOR APPROACH."

Take it with a grain of salt... most new and innovative systems of running instances... they are awesome. But sometimes, it's nice to know that the veterans who ran warsong before viles, and delta before spawn point, know quite a bit more than the youngin's who never knew who it used to be done.

I don't PK, but my friend oked this seeker to dual my BM. I was nervous but tried my best using all the PvE knowledge i had. The result was me stun locking him and winning the duel. The seeker said "Wow i was stunned the whole time, I couldnt even attack once." and my friend smirked and said "Yeah, she's an old school BM." I liked the sound of that

Veteran players are mostly superior at the game because they've had more experience, don't get me wrong. But there is this mindset that their way is ALWAYS better. Like you MUST have CE. Or instead of discussing who would be better DD and who would be better healer between a mystic and a cleric, the cleric MUST heal. Even when the cleric is r999+10 and the mystic is TT99 and thus their DD is inferior and the run would be speedier if the cleric was the one to DD. Or a barb MUST be used, and MUST be vit build. You have to have this gear or that gear to go to this instance. And you MUST already be very pro at 100, no matter how long you've played the game and how lonely and bored you were doing quests by yourself with nobody to talk or play with. A burden that many of them dif NOT have to face. Back in 2009 when I did quests, there were other people on the world map. If a quest was long or hard or tedious or annoying or if I just wasn't feeling it that day, I could squad up with others and talk and it would make it better. I didn't quest alone because I HAD to, I did because I wanted too. These restrictions are mostly imposed by the vets who are the ones to get to the content first, then it just becomes the norm and even newer players act this way. So I don't think it's fair to say "well I did it," because back when those things were done the game itself was very different.

These p.leveld noobs don't have that choice, and when they do squad stuff like BH chances are there is some vet who doesn't want to bother with these BHs again bringing in their main and totally ruining it for them. Then claiming that it's "helping," when the players who want them to do that are the ones that usually suck and can't do it on their own. And thus would be served more by helping them to help themselves. And the ones that dont' want it get frustrated and feel like p.leveling just to finally get ot the content they themselves can play.

And I don't think criticizing this mindset of the playerbase takes anything away from veterans of the game. Or anyway means they are not skilled. I think veterans of the game are mostly praised, in fact. As well as most of them should be. But that doesn't give them a free pass to think they are always right. New and Old should open to advice. There is always room for improvement.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

1% of the time? If a person does BH for 20 minutes each day, and then spends the rest of their time solo grinding for say another 2 hours each day. Perhaps throwing in some duo TT with a BM friend, occasionally. Which they can easily survive without the use of apo and thus chi pots are a viable option. Then on the weekends they do nation wars and some 1v1 pvp with a few friends, while chatting. None of what I just listed was an abnormal way for a cleric to spend their time. And they also working on their gear, so they are improving. So the majority of the time they are not going to need CE. So why should they build a genie only for BH? And waste a genie skill on CE when they have a genie that works for them in all these other situations where they spend the vast majority of their time? So someone doesn't call them fail because they don't spend their time the same way you do? You're making a lot of assumptions about a person if you think that they are a p.level noob or a fail old player, because they don't play the same way you do.

P.Level noobs are usualy people that don't know how ot play their class, let alone how to build a proper genie. They are fail because they have not learned any better.

But older players are a big part of the problem too. They become set in their ways and only want to people to play a certain way down to apparently even the genie.

They rush them through BH without saying a word
They pressure them to p.level
They refuse to play with them in at level squads, often going "lead pls" and inviting their main without asking. The ones who do that also often expect you to be ever so grateful you ruined their chance at getting some good squad play in.
All of this leads to people deciding to become p.level noobs who don't yet have the expenses to level their skills let alone already have good gear or even less on the radar good genies.
Then they get all this pressure not only to do their job, but to do it ONLY the way that someone else wants them to do it. Because people make a LOT of assumptions on how other's are spending their time.

Is it any wonder new player retention is so low? PWE is part of the problem, but stuff like this is part of the problem. And yes I have CE on my genie on my cleric. People who don't want to listen, people who are unwilling to teach and instead kick without explanation, people who do passive aggressive things to get back at people, people who have too many demands on others (and yes, some demands are reasonable. They shouldn't slow down the squad a ton, or cause wipes, etc. But if they are doing their job, the rest is their business), etc are all contributing too the p.level noob problem. And it's problem that is frustrating to all levels and types of players.



I agree with that it would be nice if more players used apoth. I used it all the time back in the day. But I don't really care what they use, so long as they do their job. Don't add TOO much time to a run. (I'm not gonna cry over a couple of minutes.) And tell me ahead of time if they have some kind of limitation. Too often people are silent in squads, and only tell ou they weren't actually ready to do their job AFTER the wipe. That's the biggest problem I have with clerics who not only don't have CE, but don't manage chi well. If they told me, I could give them some tips. And wait for them. But don't have the barb rushing in with 2 ihes into a pull when you know full well you don't have chi for BB, and he's gonna need it.

Are you stupid or just hellbent on not being wrong? Give me instance where CE isnt useful. Only thing I can think of is grinding & PKing, everything else its fairly useful. I also spoke of having several genies, which you didnt even acknowledge. 90% of the time BB is the best way to heal, to not waste apo cd you might need and not have "I need chi, sec" breaks in run CE is pretty much the skill to have.

But I ask you, if not CE, then what on genie? You make argument how there might not be space for CE, I cant see how that would be possible on PvE genie. This, of course, if we arent talking bout some **** genie with 71- LP. Damage amps? I dont think I have run into cleric that would amp the boss and either way most if not all DDs got the usual HP + AD + Mire + EP on their genie, some extra skills depending on how many LPs genie got. Last time cleric used their genie to "help me" and expelled me, they did more harm than good and since then I cant be expelled as incident forced me to change my settings.

But lets go trough your list.

1. Solo grinding? Genie on grinding isnt worth the stamina it uses. This assuming its used for amping targets. AD is one thing, having CE wont make it impossible to have that though. Healing skills on cleric genie just seem absurd.

2. TT? If we discount 3-3, 3-2 emperor & minister, 3-1 Beast and 2-3 AE, I dont think there is any boss where BB wouldnt be the best healing option.

3. PK? Like I said earlier, you have PvE and PvP genie.

4. NW? See above.

ovenusarmanio

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Are you stupid or just hellbent on not being wrong? Give me instance where CE isnt useful. Only thing I can think of is grinding & PKing, everything else its fairly useful. I also spoke of having several genies, which you didnt even acknowledge. 90% of the time BB is the best way to heal, to not waste apo cd you might need and not have "I need chi, sec" breaks in run CE is pretty much the skill to have.

But I ask you, if not CE, then what on genie? You make argument how there might not be space for CE, I cant see how that would be possible on PvE genie. This, of course, if we arent talking bout some **** genie with 71- LP. Damage amps? I dont think I have run into cleric that would amp the boss and either way most if not all DDs got the usual HP + AD + Mire + EP on their genie, some extra skills depending on how many LPs genie got. Last time cleric used their genie to "help me" and expelled me, they did more harm than good and since then I cant be expelled as incident forced me to change my settings.

But lets go trough your list.

1. Solo grinding? Genie on grinding isnt worth the stamina it uses. This assuming its used for amping targets. AD is one thing, having CE wont make it impossible to have that though. Healing skills on cleric genie just seem absurd.

2. TT? If we discount 3-3, 3-2 emperor & minister, 3-1 Beast and 2-3 AE, I dont think there is any boss where BB wouldnt be the best healing option.

3. PK? Like I said earlier, you have PvE and PvP genie.

4. NW? See above.

1) I never said it was not a useful skill. I even have it on my genie. I'm saying depending on how they spend their time, they may find other skills more useful. If the only reason you'd use it for is BH, then there is no point in having a BH only genie. Which is an acknowledgement of what you said about multiple genies btw. It's nice that you can't find anything better to do with your money than to have a genie for every instance, a lot of people just have one for PvE and stat it for what they spend most of their time in. And one for PVP. I also know there are some that don't have a PvE genie because the only time they do PVE is when they are extremely bored. Why waste resources on something you do not do, for the most part?

2) I don't know if you noticed, but TT is vey easy manage CHI in if you're just gonna BB at the bosses. You shouldn't need CE for that, unless you got your cleric on follow. But I said duo with someone not drag your alt behind you. I'd personally use it in there, but that is just me. I'm not gonna claim my way is the only way to do things, or even the best way to do things. And I certainly am not going to pretend like its the only way to get chi.

3) Depends on what you're grinding. If you're solo grinding on some lower end TTs, you may want some defensive skills. Not to mention, if someone has a static squad they may choose to build their toons and genies around what works best for them. It may not work best for you in your BH, but BH is a small part of any player's day unless they have tons of alts they run it on.

I know it's a shocker to you, but other people prioritize different things, have different goals, spend their time in different ways (so you have NO way of knowing it would be useful for them based on what they are spending their time doing and arbitrarily giving percentages is even more asinine), and have different squad setups they normally encounter. That's just a fact. As long as they can do their job efficiently, and without causing unreasonable extra costs to your BH squad, there shouldn't be a problem. None of those thigns makes someone a fail or a newb. The cleric in OP's post is fail not because she didn't have CE, but because she had NO clue what she was doing, failed to communicate, and then got an attitude when someone gave him/her some good advice specific to his/her observed skill and gear. The cleric was bad at chi management, had no apoth, and no genie skill and then didn't even say anything but stacked the puller and watched him die. Then got an attitude with him. That's what is fail.