Why BM is Weak

MasterPerian - Lost City wrote: »

60 def lvls 20k pdef and BM zerk crits me for 18k. Its doable he didn't debuff me hes just thats strong.

60 def levels is **** all, same with only 20k fully buffed phys def, and even then the chance of a top 15% damage range zerk crit is less than 1%.

+12 weapons kill +10 armor "gasp".

I think BMs are decent endgame. The fact that most of us need to farm and refine two different sets of gear (aps and def/axe) really hits us in the pockets and makes it take longer for us to reach endgame but considering most people are farming gear sets for their alts its not too much of an issue.

The issue is not that BMs are falling behind, its that most other classes have obvious advantages. A mixed JoSD/vit sharded +10 r9t3 seeker was zerk crit by a +12 r9t3 sin for 23k. How do you defend against that? I'm regularly crit spammed for 8-15k by archers and I'm r9t3, although shards aren't up to date. Add in an archer purge and a few friends and if the archer doesn't 2 shot or charm jump me someone else will since now I'm buffless. And my favorite thing to nitpick is the 100 magic per 100% weapon damage statting that casters get compared to the 150str/100% weapon damage we get. We're at 400-600 (3-4 damage mutlipliers) while they sit around 7-8. Add in their 30m+ range, larger skill damage, and the fact that with -channeling most of them skill spam faster than we do and we're pretty screwed.

So, casters can 1 shot us. Sins can 1 shot us (especially when running around in multiple pvp with mag marrow on). Archers can crit spam and 2-3 shot us from up to 40 meters. We can kill all of them, if we can reach them but between purify proc, archer's having longer leaps and more anti-stuns, and sins having stealth and teleports the odds of us reaching them are decently slim.

That leaves Barbs and Seekers. Barbs are in the same boat we are, having DD that hasn't grown with defenses and most pray for a zerk crit on arma to end any r9t3 fight. Seekers are also defensive beasts, but have plenty of offensive options too. Their only problem is they're very susceptible to stuns. What you end with is a BM pvping against a barb, seeker, or another bm is going to be a very, very long fight usually only ending because of a lucky string of zerks.

thumbs wrote: »

In addition: a BM needs a genie skill or apoth to recover the sparks spent on HF or GS. Assassins don't need genie skills for massive chi replenishment.

Yup, not to mention how difficult it is to keep that genie's energy up to pull if off, especially after deaths. (I think it's counter-productive that we only use genies for chi, yet there is apo, but even that can struggle significantly keeping our chi up, especially if we use up the chi we gain to 'lock' someone down, and they just break out of it. TT

This is why I restated. They don't get it far easier than BM's though, other wise you wouldn't have been seeing all those claw sins. Also pour =/= poor.

Really can't blame you one bit, so many bm's have done this exact same thing, but it is quite francly not something I wish to do, I like using all of my skills/being able to equip all of the weapons.

They're one of the last classes I take for BH's, but ahead of sins and archers usually. I do find it very easy to get into a squad as a BM, but I think that has to do with ignorance of squad makers.

I definitely find it easy as well to get into squads, but aye a bm so isn't that much of a necessity at all, they do help speed up kills, but that really depends on the player behind the bm.

There are some BMs on HT that do greater pulls than most barbs and can solo the mobs they pulled with BP. I've never seen a sin pull as well as a BM, but I have see seekers, Barbs, and Mystics do it.

Believe me I know that full well, I can't count how many times I have had to pick up the 'slack' due to a fail barb not being able to keep the squad alive in full delta's, poor clerics.

My BM is slowly converting to non-aps (want to acquire and maintain it's ability to tank SoT and Aba first).

It does sound like a good way to become somewhat relevant in pvp again, but to be honest I for one dont want to give up being an all path bm just to go one path/only really shine in pvp. (Sure you will still be able to do things in pve, especially with the right genie/player behind it, but still you lose out of so many nice skills going axe only, at least in my honest opinion. )

Either way, I do hope that one day, we too will have a slightly better/more guaranteed skill that gets us to people... I realize there is the new morai skills, but I find those to be rather meh in mass pvp, (again just an opinion, but still, I don't like them all that much.)

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1. come on people, break this OMG I'M A DD CLASS mentality. You're not. You're a support and CCer with a big chunk of DPS that happens to be there.

Gotta disagree here, mainly because between geni/apoc/purify proc and mele range BM's get controled more than they can control and the debuffs dont tend to stick. Bm's have always felt like a generic warrior class (aka good at nothing but damn do they get cool gear to make em useful) with debuff/CC/monk DPS tacked on to me. I dont think the class actually HAS a core mechanic to abuse outside of equipment sets.

2. Going back to 2009 axe-only build will only make you look stupid. Ran a warsong with one of those pure axe BMs. Sin was crying for HF and he could only deliver two before Cannon died. He got aggro when sin died on vile earth boss and went down in a few hits because LOL NO SPARK NO BP HEAL. It was just a sad sight to watch him slowly hit the boss wit axes and doing zilch damage, zilch support, zilch in general

Omg its not just me seeing people somehow reverting to the stone age?

its rare that i disagree with youpony dude but I gotta do so this time

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I usually talk PVE since I'm too poor for proper PVP

Eh pve wise were a tanky DPS class with a useful amp on single targets and a strong aoe control debuffer with lots of tankyness and midline damage.

Pve was almost all made with a 15k hp barb tank in mind. I play and enjoy it greatly but its a joke.

So in pve terms a fully buffed well built bm can basicly solo the game.

XCableX - Archosaur wrote: »

Edit: On the side note, what could be an appropriate demon/sage skill bonus for our sprints + leap?

Why not just put purify on both those skills when used, just needs to use a little copy paste, and everyone is happy b:cute.

Btw, am i playing against the same sin as the rest? Most sins die if they lag a tiny bit, because they usually get caught up in my stun. I use fists, so they die quick. The well geared ones, well what can i say, they are well geared.

If people are at my gear level, they die easy, if they are better, i die easy, end of story for me. Personally i find sins to be very squishy in pve, pvp compared to my bm.

Just to add, i hit a wizzy last friday nw with smack, 280 damage. I thought maybe a pdef charm, so i used blade hurl next, 230 damage. I holy path the opposite direction b:chuckle. We are weak.

tbh, if you go pure axe build, 75% of your hits gonna miss on archer/sins lol, i always hope that bm's bell would give 30 to 50% accuracy some day (just to self, not squad) i would get rid of some dex i currently have 260 dex with gear just not to miss too much. as for sage/demon sprint, i was hoping for maybe like gain chi while being attacked or chance of gaining chi back after being used.

为武侠的荣誉而战

DragoAhmad - Archosaur wrote: »

Demon Sprint: Stealth.
Sage Sprint: Disable Negative Stats.

Or maybe... Let's be ninjas.

And leaps, I'd love longer leaps.

Maybe more like make the BM untargetable for a few seconds. BMs are not ninjas.

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

Maybe more like make the BM untargetable for a few seconds. BMs are not ninjas.

Why not? We can ApS after all. b:chuckle

DragoAhmad - Archosaur wrote: »

Hope for more. Wish for much. Ask for insane stuff. GMs wont get us anywhere anyway. xD

Well I'd rather have this discussion than a kumbyah circle jerk of stupid.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1. come on people, break this OMG I'M A DD CLASS mentality. You're not. You're a support and CCer with a big chunk of DPS that happens to be there.

2. Going back to 2009 axe-only build will only make you look stupid. Ran a warsong with one of those pure axe BMs. Sin was crying for HF and he could only deliver two before Cannon died. He got aggro when sin died on vile earth boss and went down in a few hits because LOL NO SPARK NO BP HEAL. It was just a sad sight to watch him slowly hit the boss wit axes and doing zilch damage, zilch support, zilch in general

ok 1st off all are we CC? cos by looks pwi dosent want CC to exist any more on top of all the apoc they make genies so ppl can immune/purify stuns etc then they make casters weapons that will do both and add in a speed buff to boot, i agree with OP we do seem to be gettin directly or indirectly worse end of the deal every update and its starting to stack up. What i cant for the life of me understand is why? BM should be 4 weapons (tho another discussion for another thread there lol) thats +3 more things for us to refine right away, BM = HA and high hp meaning more charm usage in well anything. Their obsessive about gettin ppl to charge zen but keep making the 1 class u'd think be their cash cow less and less desirable to spend on so even by their own methods it makes no bleeding sense

as for you 2nd point if the sin cant manage his DD and not pull aggro he's not a particularly good sin tbh the amount of nab squishy's running about with +3 armour and +10-12 daggers who 3 spark, power dash then biitch cos they pulled aggro its beyond belief and thats before taking into account the number of times I've ran with lvl100+ sins who either haven't lvl'd subsea or don't actually know what it is- DD is support if you have a tank let him do his job don't pull aggro trying to stroke your epeen with ur damage log cos a dead DD dose f all

untill pwi actually decides though what the hell they want to do with the BM class i cant see it getting better at the moment it seems to be **** us off with half measures to make us reroll or go some were else lol I'd personally like them to bring out a couple more skills for each path giving each a distinct "feel" or role and for PWI to man up and put the other 3 r9 weapons in so we can get them through a quest once the full set of axe, ring , belt and armour has been made so we get the set at same cost other classes get their's cos lets be honest an archer doesnt have to change his bow for a xbow when using BoA or leaps a cleric doesnt need to switch out from their glave to go metal mage etc etc we on other hand have skills that can only be accessed with specific weapons therefore we should also get the r9 equivalent instead of having to switch to lower and inferior grades that's currently for me is the passive nerf i find most offensive we'd of gotten no advantage over other classes by having all four weapons but we're at an immediate disadvantage only been given 1 and they have yet to do anything to even acknowledge or compensate

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon/Sage leaps would be nice. Time to be creative!!!

Sage Leap Forward - No chi and chance to recover 20 chi
Sage Leap Back - Chi shield equal to xx% max health lasts for 5 seconds.
Demon Leap Forward - Adds xx% weapon damage as Fire Damage For 5 seconds
Demon Leap Back - Invis applied for 2 seconds.

But what I would really like to see is a new skill.

lvl 101 Skill Weapons Master - The blademasters skill with all weapons is perfected to such an extent that all skills are now avaiable for use regardless of which weapon is equipped. All skills are usable with Axes;Spears;Sword; Fist.

Animations would be adapted to add flair. Example: Whenever using a Axe skill with a non axe weapon an added animation of "phantom axes" is added when executing the skill.

You could still switch out weapons if you wanted. (for certain weapon procs and such) But it would no longer be required.

leap is my fav skill of bms, so lets buff it! lol

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

"Let's be creative" and give sages more chi, lol.

I was considering the chi shield idea myself, too. And I was considering a similar idea for demon leap back, except instead of Invis, it was cannot be targetted for 3 seconds. That's funny, similar ideas.

Other ideas are leap forward "Increase soulforce by 150% for 5 seconds" for our Morai skills, or make it an antistun purify. Not a purify all but cannot be stunned while leaping and while purify freeze.

More important to me would an "able to leap while falling". Did you ever notice while sprinting if you get frozen you can't leap because you're airborne? Or just as annoying you leap forward and you are rubber banding 6 inches off the ground, can't use skills, and can't get to the ground from you leap. I'd rather those be fixed prior to demon/sage skills.

I've wanted this change forever now. Leaps also....bug going uphill, bug when stunned (it pushes you up for some reason), and bug because they want to.

Demon/Sage morai skills would be a fun convo too. Wild guess to follow the trends: Sage versions would not cost chi/use less chi and demon versions would help you kill stuff, survive, or support your squad.

Demon R rush, 30m range
Demon blade hurl, +2 seconds on disarm
Demon reel in, +% chance to pull in
Demon flame typhoon, 100% chance to stun

Sage R rush, +damage
Sage blade hurl, lower CD
Sage Reel in, freezes whether it pulls in or not
Sage flame Typhoon, heals 50% hp

Have to make a pole skill dedicated to Zanryu at least.

Makes user strip.