Why BM is Weak

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Better get my +1

Shardik - Lost City

+1

Me too

*Dons Cookie Laser Eye Wear*

*Shoots cookies for everyone*

b:chuckle

Jaabg - Sanctuary

*tries to catch all the cookies* +1

For the record, bm are not weak. I have no trouble killing people now with a +12 weapon.

Aedryel - Sanctuary

cheddydank wrote: »

yes, its now the age of casters, yes bm is good in pve, but sin is better.... bm lost that competition too. 1v1 pvp bm is good, but only while anti stun lasts lol, and if u dont get it in in time, ur done for. from all classes. my fav class is bm, i have 3 lol 1 aps/axe r9rr demon which is my main, one sage/fist/axe no r9 and one is sage axe bm for hard hits in aoe/def no r9 but still g16.

Stating directly a Sin is better in PvE than a BM is somewhat biased as they so totally lack any def; 85% of em on Sanctuary gets 2 shot by AOEs in Metal, they are not much of a use in Deltas either if not for BP and occasional SS. Their DPS is higher (w same or similar quality gear setup almost double than of a BM), yes, they also capable stealthing thru instances but on the other hand, they are fragile compared to a BM and you can't rely on Foc Mind prolonged.

Secondly: you're not obliged to wear Tt99 on a BM, just be determined enough to roll RR8 till -int and defs and tada. Mine atm w none of the gears or orns refined above +5 has only belled and mag marrowed 12k mag def along w 14k p.def which is multiple times the def of a Sin. Phys marrowed on a pure phys boss is nearly 40k, soaking off dmg laughing which 1 hits a Sin if foc mind doesnt kick in. Refer to WS Fire Vile boss.
Substitute lame TT99 evasion orns to def ones and u'll see marrows aint underpowered.

Lets see the common instances:

-Metal: DPS is most welcome, Sins under BB mostly can handle the boss no probs, but
during clearing they are vulnerable to AOEs.
-Delta: BP, Subsea, hunting archer mobs.
-Lunar: DDing boss and major mobs, SS, BP slaving for Seeker/Barb
-SoT: majority of em gets 1 shot by boss plus due to its 75% anti-normal-meelee buff, any archer overDDs a Sin there
-Abba: No Sin can 1 spark kill Puppet boss, so its irrevelant whos tanking in a 10-ppl squad.
-Full Warsong: Sins are essential no doubt, BP, uber DPS both required
-TTs: they solo it up to 3-2 damn efficient

My point is a BM is definetely not excel at any role but is a decent support for any.
Blade Tornado obliterates ranged mobs in most delta stages in 1 cycle. HF/GS supports whole squads DPSing efforts. Roar of the Pride and M Sword Stance, esp if Demon can save the squishy sorry *****. Bolt of Tyresues freezes and nerfs atk/channel speed of mobs in AOE plus its a semi-nuke DPH. Lovely in Deltas. Sparked DBB lets BMs DD phys immune mobs to a degree, way more efficient than Condensed Thorn. Smack+Reckless rush is an ideal tool to help out an AA if got engaged by a meelee mob. Dragon's Bane w spark makes abt every 2nd hit of yours a crit for nearly 2 full spark cycles, pretty much makes up for Power Dash which lasts 8 secs incl its cast time. With using my lame +7 unsharded NV3 claws Card Bosses in Eden last 3 sparks tops. Wouldnt call that a lack of DPS for BMs.

Support is the word. A bit tanking, a bit DPSing, a bit amplifying, a bit stunning, and as the little things add up, you'll see that instance went way smoother.

Aedryel - Sanctuary

Actually my BM holds aggro over most of the sins unless they are NV3 5.0 or R9.3 b:laugh

WannaBM - Archosaur

Equally geared DPS comparison
Sin(16.8+22.06)/2*5 *1.37 *1.75=233k
BM(16.1+20.1)/2*5 *1.20 *1.70 =185k
Barb(15.1+18.86)/2*5 *1.20 *1.70 =173k

Sin > 21% > BM > 6.5% > Barb

Both the barb and BM can reduce the gap by 3% if they give up tankiness for a G15 instead of G16 helm.

The barb has poison fang and blood rush to increase his damage with about 5% and 0-20% respectively. So ye, the BM comes out on the bottom i guess, but the gap aint that big.

The discussion who is best all round is pointless and been going on enough before this thread was a necro.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Equally geared DPS comparison
Sin(16.8+22.06)/2*5 *1.37 *1.75=233k
BM(16.1+20.1)/2*5 *1.20 *1.70 =185k
Barb(15.1+18.86)/2*5 *1.20 *1.70 =173k

Sin > 21% > BM > 6.5% > Barb

Both the barb and BM can reduce the gap by 3% if they give up tankiness for a G15 instead of G16 helm.

The barb has poison fang and blood rush to increase his damage with about 5% and 0-20% respectively. So ye, the BM comes out on the bottom i guess, but the gap aint that big.

The discussion who is best all round is pointless and been going on enough before this thread was a necro.

Noticed you didn't use weapon masteries. Doesn't matter too much but since they'd all get them, but since they changed the damage tiers for G16 claws and daggers so they refine equally (previously, daggers refined better than claws because of the lower base aps) the masteries increase both BM and sin equally. Doesn't really make a difference but it pulls their overall dd about 1% closer.

It does however make a difference between barb and bm damage comparisons because 75% + 1% crit BM mastery is much better than +50% wood damage. It keeps BM just ever so slightly in the lead. Then you get into comparing "do both have Titans?" and other things and yah, it can be argued endlessly as you said.

But your point stands. I think alot of us still use the G15 helm so:
Sin> 16-21% > BM <> +/- 5% <> Barb

So we're looking at +8 vs +10 weapon difference? A +8 G16 sin does roughly the same as a +10 G16 BM, a lesser dagger the BM/Barb tanks and a great weapon the Sin tanks. Not bad considering the BM will have 2-3 times the defense.

We also seem better setup to increase our damage. Dragon Bane offers the 25% crit increase for 30 seconds compared to Power Dash's increase of 40% crit for 8 seconds. Demon HF is a 100% amp, compared to demon Subsea which is 30% for 15 seconds, and somewhat replaceable by EP.

And after all that being said... I'm pretty sure the OP was talking about pvp. BMs do somewhat lack the heavy dph that other classes have. Most caster skills obviously blow our skill spam out of the water, especially their ultis. Barbs have Arma, seekers have Gemini, sins have Chill of the Deep + 60% crit + 700 dex... BMs have always been a class that required a setup, like Stun+ HF + Dragon Bane ->dps (whether in the form of quick dph skills or aps) but with some of the new gear, especially purify proc, the more complicated the setup is the more likely purify will proc. Battling high hp opponents or high evade opponents means now HF is more likely to expire before you can finish the opponent. Somewhat admittedly we've kind of evolved out of an era of pk where seting up a kill to race a charm like this is possible. But... There isn't much R9t3 axes with Gof, a 35% crit rate, a huge refine rate, and 130+ attack levels cant kill either.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I found +7 g16 5 aps sin = agro tag with my g16+10 5 aps bm. +8 used to have agro most of the time.

Our biggest issue is when we start on bosses, we do spark+hf, that takes 2~3 seconds, before we switch to claws/fists. Sins just go straight out from the start.

In pve, i still prefer my bm over my sin, simply because when things go bad in tt 3-x, my bm can still do things without buffs, or reset bosses without dying. I am sure similar levelled refined sins can as well, but they seem to go squish far quicker after a purge, before bp, spark kicks in.

I started doing nw on my sin, and people die super quick now to my aps sin, sure i get 1~3 shot, but the joys of stun helps me over come that. I am surprised sins don't stun lock more often. They tend to go spark>auto attack on my bm, weird. Some sins triple spark, and do auto attack, and i stun lock them, spark goes to waste, and i end up zerk critting the poor souls for 20k~30k b:cry.

One time a sin nearly killed me, my charm ticked, i did highland cleave (macro start skill for aoe), he got zerk crit for 35k, he messaged me and left the battle.

Kniraven - Lost City

+1 post count in necro thread.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Noticed you didn't use weapon masteries.

Thanx for noticing, i seem to have forgotten to save the updated builds. In the numbers game they are included though. Hence why you see the numbers i used are a bit higher than those in the calc.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I found +7 g16 5 aps sin = agro tag with my g16+10 5 aps bm. +8 used to have agro most of the time.

Our biggest issue is when we start on bosses, we do spark+hf, that takes 2~3 seconds, before we switch to claws/fists. Sins just go straight out from the start.

Yup, thats what it looks like from my barb perspective too. First of all, i statted vit and do not yet have blood rush, so the differences are slightly bigger than the above math should indicate. With my G16+10 @ 5 aps:

Feel confident having agro over 4APS+8 and 5APS+4 sins.
fight over agro with 4APS+9-10 and 5APS+5-6 sins.
Have agro all of the time over a good 5APS+10 BM because he is swapping to axes for HF.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

In pve, i still prefer my bm over my sin, simply because when things go bad in tt 3-x, my bm can still do things without buffs, or reset bosses without dying. I am sure similar levelled refined sins can as well, but they seem to go squish far quicker after a purge, before bp, spark kicks in.

Can you tell me what bosses and what equipment you are talking about ?

With this build, i cannot solo GBA or Emperor. (Charms could make some thing possible, but it ticks to much to be worth considering) Steelation 3-1 no problem, 3-2 and 3-3 is a major **** and i wonder if i will ever want to do him with any equipment.

Now i was wondering what DOES it take to solo GBA and emperor.
I know a 30k HP standing aps barb who does emperor but hes still using a charm and 30k standing is pretty impressive anyway.
I know a BM with +10 or +11 warsoul weapon @ 5APS and 18k HP or so who doesnt do it.
Makes me feel it must either be a lot easier for sins, or it is indeed very rare to truly solo these bosses.

Crazybladema - Harshlands

+1 post count

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Now i was wondering what DOES it take to solo GBA and emperor.
I know a 30k HP standing aps barb who does emperor but hes still using a charm and 30k standing is pretty impressive anyway.
I know a BM with +10 or +11 warsoul weapon @ 5APS and 18k HP or so who still skips emperor when solo.
Makes me feel it must either be a lot easier for sins, or it is indeed very rare to truly solo these bosses.

It was about 6 months ago life finally became easier on my bm than my barb. Previously, the larger and faster pulls of tiger form and the 'o sht!' invoke on bosses when purged made my aps barb my favorite TT soloer. Plus the obviously larger hp pool and subsequently more heals every triple spark.

But now what I value most is the longer anti-stun and the marrows of bm. Plus diamond Sutra is a great life saver and demon DS has the added bonus of crit increase and more bloodpaint heals. So magic marrow + bell spam on emperor and most importantly a fast kill I think is what makes Emperor more possible for me, at least in 3-2. I have 11k with aps gear and have been able to solo since 10k hp. Barb buffed it's about 14.5k. Also, many of his tricks start at 50% so bursting through the last bit really helps.

MasterPerian - Lost City

I know BM's that destroy everything and everyone around them... get on their lvl..

Jaabg - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Can you tell me what bosses and what equipment you are talking about ?

With this build, i cannot solo GBA or Emperor. (Charms could make some thing possible, but it ticks to much to be worth considering) Steelation 3-1 no problem, 3-2 and 3-3 is a major **** and i wonder if i will ever want to do him with any equipment.

Now i was wondering what DOES it take to solo GBA and emperor.
I know a 30k HP standing aps barb who does emperor but hes still using a charm and 30k standing is pretty impressive anyway.
I know a BM with +10 or +11 warsoul weapon @ 5APS and 18k HP or so who doesnt do it.
Makes me feel it must either be a lot easier for sins, or it is indeed very rare to truly solo these bosses.

I was scared of tt, but i decided since i can't set up shops, due to my increasing dc issue. I will farm tt this 2x, on and off, better than making no money at all.

My BM Aps build, stolen from saku, still in progress, need -int on boots, to hit 15k buffed .

Current aps build = http://pwcalc.com/e79ee9c66c885e8e

current build when i am purged = http://pwcalc.com/13e039dcb2189f3b

I mostly ad, spark resist most purges, I could get pan gu essence to make my life easier, but too lazy for that. I prefer to have barb buffs before doing arma, doggy boss and snake lady.

I only farm tt 3-3 right now. I kill the first boss inside, kill the mobs there, i kill the 2 bosses together. My sin kills the buffing boss, and my bm kills the dude with a hole in the middle.

After that, my sin goes to the minister boss location, i put on my non-aps gear and run past all the mobs to the snake lady. Kill the snake lady.

Go to minister boss next. Kill minister, i use vacs here, takes about 2 vacs and about 3~4 will of bodhi. I seem to time my sparks better now, so i spark resist about 60% of the sleeps now.

All the above bosses do not require charms or pots to tank. Just spark macro. If you have ho buffs, and you are charmed, you will get maybe 1~2 charm ticks.

Arma = glitch, hp buffs + def blessing = no charm tick. If i put on jones blessing, i get a few charm ticks. So nothing big there.

The above takes me about 45~60 minutes to do, solo. I prefer to duo with someone else, reduces my time to move my alts around.

After i go and kill the doggy boss. If you are fully buffed and can resist all the purges, the boss will not charm tick you, take about 4~8 hp pots to kill.

If i get purged, and his hp is low, and i can not rez my sin, i switch to my non aps gear and just dd with axes. I put on mdef charms to reduce the damage and i spam bell. Hp pots with demon bell are enough to heal me back to full hp, and hardly cause an issue.

Problems occur when he does debuffs and stuff all at the same time. He will do the hp debuff, stun you, purge you, stun you, and hit you a magic hit. That will most likely one shot me.

If you want to reduce costs, just farm arma, the bosses along the way are not hard. Duo it with someone to go faster. Any class can duo it with you, as long as they debuff and dd on bosses.

I do not do steelation in 3-3, since he has aps+sleep, not a good combo for a melee class. I don't do emperor because his gold and green drop is not worth it.

In 3-1, steelation only does aps, that is easy to counter. You can hit dew of protection and just keep on dding. The next time he aps, just spark+ad and that will complete the aps turn. The third time if he aps and alive, just jump back, put on magic marrow and run around. As soon as aps end, back to regular dd. Just remember to bell before regular dd though, since the magic marrow will hurt when he does regular attacks.

At the end, it is mostly about playstyles, what things you want to use, and what costs you want to incur. Farming doggy and arma is worth it though.

Also another tip, like saku said for 3-2 emperor, in 3-3 the minister boss, the first 20~30 seconds does not sleep. If you can kill boss in that time, no need to worry about sleep. I am usually moving my alt away from the boss so bm is on an aps macro. When alt is moved, bm is about to be slept. Most bosses go insane near the end. The doggy boss goes insane at times, other times, he is good.

I have about 10~11k hp buffed, so things are more rough, but i still prefer to do my runs without charms. I only use the charm on the doggy boss. It goes poof in about 5~10 runs. Depends on when i get purged, and if i kill boss or not without buffs.

PlsStahp - Sanctuary

Omgggg!!!!111! I can solo tt 1-3! I am pro!!11!!b:laugh

WannaBM - Archosaur

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I was scared of tt,

Also another tip, like saku said for 3-2 emperor, in 3-3 the minister boss, the first 20~30 seconds does not sleep. If you can kill boss in that time, no need to worry about sleep. I am usually moving my alt away from the boss so bm is on an aps macro. When alt is moved, bm is about to be slept. Most bosses go insane near the end. The doggy boss goes insane at times, other times, he is good.

I have about 10~11k hp buffed, so things are more rough, but i still prefer to do my runs without charms. I only use the charm on the doggy boss. It goes poof in about 5~10 runs. Depends on when i get purged, and if i kill boss or not without buffs.

that was quite a long post explaining how you solo the bosses that i did not at all mention because anyone can solo them Emp, steelation and GBA are i think the only bosses we need to consider in TT. The rest are punching bags. Albeit one very anoying punching bag in the shape of minister ofcourse. But that is anoying, not hard.

Noone can kill emperor in 30 seconds. NOONE i guarantee you. It takes me about 300 seconds. The absolute ultimate DD can do about twice the damage i do. That wold make it 150seconds. HF and genie debuffs could maybe end the ultimate DD just below 2 minutes. 100 seconds probably if you can completely prevent wasting time in bubbls or being 1aps debuffed.
But there is nothing magic about emperors first 30 seconds really. Just justerday he bubbled my buddy the first second he approached. I often had the impression that the second half seems worse yes, but he does cast his **** also in the first half. (the only **** i pay notice to is bubble and his 1APS debuf)

And ye, i dont like gambling. I am not gonna fight a boss that i win if i am lucky if he's good. When i can beat a bos with virtual certainty is when i consider it soloable, not when i might be lucky to get a kill. And thats why i consider noone of them soloable right now. Steelation sleep-aps, Emperors 1 APS debuf & bubble, GBA purge and amp. They are all the things you can spark or AD resist, but generally they just do it more often than you can keep resisting on the long run.

Thing is, i know what the bosses do. I know what they say to anounce it. I know to resist it. But they do it too often to resist it all.
Before i started this whole aps TT farm thing, i asked what is needed to solo TT. And answers were usually "its all about skill, some can do it with G13, others..." Well, when looking at barbs and BMs, it just seems like a bunch of **** to me. Or people were talking about the punching bag bosses, which obviously is rather pointless. I also see so many posts like yours that start hypothecising over 30 seconds and whatever, showing that you really havent been doing a lot of emperor soloing... I would like to see players who truely solo these 3 bosses uncharmed. I want to know what kind of toons they have for that and potentially, how crucial certain sin skills are to that.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I would like to see players who truely solo these 3 bosses uncharmed.

Current build. About 2 weeks ago I realized swapping to my r9t3 chest and removing my G15 +10 magic cube neck bumped me up 300 hp, over 2k pdef, and only lost about 150 mdef, as well as gave me another 20 strength. Should have realized it much sooner.

With that build, Emp has a really hard time killing me before I can spark and 95% of the time I can break any of his sleep/stun chains and get back to full health. Starting at about 50% I start eating pots and save my 1500hp/1500mp pots for his killer combos. There are also several times where you need to ~>not<~ spark and save your chi for a debuff so you can spark purify. During this time build spam bell and mag marrow. I think it normally takes me about 6-8 triple sparks. Whether that really is 100-140 seconds I can't say because sometimes I will not triple spark for 25 seconds and other times I will triple spark, get debuffed/stunned and use cloud eruption, and then triple spark less the 10 seconds later.

I normally solo 3-2 and just do the gold mat bosses, or go with a 2 or 3 person squad for 3-3 so a sin can open doors.

Dark Callouseast (GBA boss) is almost 100% about spark timing. He really is. He's not that hard if you can keep paint. If you lose paint, you need a charm and bell spam and pots and still might die. I used to bring a repaint if I needed it but found it split my focus too much and it's much easier to just single client and reallly really focus on triple spark/AD timing.

For 2x, it's worth it to buy a few hp charms just for soloing. Get 1 gold mat in 3-2 or 3-3 and you pay it back. Or solo GBA boss in 3-1 and get a GBS and it's paid for and you've maybe knocked 10% off the charm. Still, charms are expensive and eat into any profit margin so my favorite time to both pk or TT is after NW/TWs.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Considering that I can solo Emperor on my veno, it would seem strange if a BM, barb or sin cant.. yes my veno is charmed, but it also dun have BP or any real buffs to use (other than fox form). Steelation in 3-1 is easy, as long as you create a lil distance now and then when he goes 5 aps..

freakyd1980

cheddydank wrote: »

hello all, ive been a BM for over 5 yrs now and ive e

main point, bm IS actually the weakest class at the moment, if u got r9rr all classes to fight a r9rr bm he'd lose, and thats pure axe, if the bm is aps then its a definate loss to all classes.

Maybe some need BM classes? I totally disagree, not All BM are weak.

Salari - Raging Tide

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sin was crying for HF and he could only deliver two before Cannon died.

Cannon was not dropped in first spark? f:hushf:hehef:hush

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

Cannon was not dropped in first spark? f:hushf:hehef:hush

How 2 onespark cannon with only 1 aps DD and an axe BM that doesn't know when to HF f:hush

Salari - Raging Tide

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Considering that I can solo Emperor on my veno, it would seem strange if a BM, barb or sin cant.. yes my veno is charmed, but it also dun have BP or any real buffs to use (other than fox form). Steelation in 3-1 is easy, as long as you create a lil distance now and then when he goes 5 aps..

At range? or Melee? A magic class can handle ranged mobs/bosses a lot better than a melee can handle them in melee range. A pure mag build has a ton of mag def and is far greater than most melee's can get out of pdef and plus melee's have the problem of taking both melee and mag damage. There was many times when I took my 95 cleric with me in tt to have her tank minister or emp if my sin died.

Salari - Raging Tide

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How 2 onespark cannon with only 1 aps DD and an axe BM that doesn't know when to HF f:hush

Well if timing is off yeah it can be difficult, this vid was just short of a one spark, but I was to far back when I sparked so lost a couple secs of spark dmg (was getting use to range daggers) . Ofcourse this boss was fully debuffed, seeker/veno/bm debuffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxMv_qkwvkI

Yeah one thing that always drove me crazy was late or no debuffs and usually would cause a squad wipe with the right boss.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How 2 onespark cannon with only 1 aps DD and an axe BM that doesn't know when to HF f:hush

Im also learning to apreciate other DDs more and more. Ill take any r9+10 DD nowadays in mobless. Archers, psys, wizzies. They dont really do that much less than an APSer.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I also see so many posts like yours that start hypothecising over 30 seconds and whatever, showing that you really havent been doing a lot of emperor soloing... I would like to see players who truely solo these 3 bosses uncharmed. I want to know what kind of toons they have for that and potentially, how crucial certain sin skills are to that.

I was referring to minister when i said 30 seconds b:surrender, sorry if you misunderstood. I check from the cool down in my running skills on my sin.

I skip emperor in 3-3, nothing good comes from doing emperor for me b:chuckle.

Steelation i always do in 3-1, he is easy in 3-1, charmless can be done easily. 3-3, i will never try on my bm, i die.

GBA - 3-1 to 3-3 i can do charmless. Only if i manage to resist the debuffs. After getting debuffed, i need to have bp as a minimum to live, unless i have a 17~22k hp pool in aps gear. If i have that much hp, it is minor charm ticks that the gba will cause. I don't do it charmless, because i don't want to waste time rezzing and rebuffing and starting again from 0 because i died due to my small hp pool.

GBA can be killed in 1~2 spark cycles, that much i have seen with squads.

When people say solo, i have learnt one thing. You need to have high refines to solo bosses in tt. When things go kaput, the hp will let you survive until you can get back into the killing groove. Weapon needs high refine because if you take 10~20 minutes killing the first boss, well that tt might be rough on you.

VKnightV - Lost City

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

At range? or Melee? A magic class can handle ranged mobs/bosses a lot better than a melee can handle them in melee range. A pure mag build has a ton of mag def and is far greater than most melee's can get out of pdef and plus melee's have the problem of taking both melee and mag damage. There was many times when I took my 95 cleric with me in tt to have her tank minister or emp if my sin died.

really i think my AA bm can get over 30k mag deff

atm i have 20k mg deff in marrow and its lv10 not sage

still not where i want to be but working on it

can u even get to 20k mg deff or are you just talking out of ignorance hmmm

WannaBM - Archosaur

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

really i think my AA bm can get over 30k mag deff

atm i have 20k mg deff in marrow and its lv10 not sage

still not where i want to be but working on it

can u even get to 20k mg deff or are you just talking out of ignorance hmmm

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. Espescially after you start about my "AA BM" Nothing against your AA BM, but dont use it when discussing something about BMs in general.

Point is yes. bosses have a closerange mellee attack and a long range magic attack. For many of the bosses, the long ranged magic attack is easier to be tanked on magic classes than the close range mellee is tanked by HA classes. Emperor and steelation are clear examples of this.

Salari - Raging Tide

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

really i think my AA bm can get over 30k mag deff

atm i have 20k mg deff in marrow and its lv10 not sage

still not where i want to be but working on it

can u even get to 20k mg deff or are you just talking out of ignorance hmmm

so what you are saying is you have no idea what you are talking about.