Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Damn, replies come fast. Ill have to read all of it later tonight.
Although, how does one get locked for an entire nation wars? I think thats a bit exaggerating.

trands wrote: »

Honestly, I don't see how you would win vs the r999 melee in those same situations.

trands wrote: »

For good order, there are groups of well coordinated lower geared. While they are less frequent, I've encountered a few squads that have a cleric+bm combo effectively pin me down while some 1shot barb does the flag 2x. When being alone, that really sucks b:laugh No matter what gear, there's not much that can be done against a sneaky cleric coming from above b:surrender Remove wings from winged elf clerics during NW ! b:angry

Ya answered our own question don't cha know. It's literally happened to you but you can't figure out how it could happen to someone else? IT doesn't happen often I admit. But when it does its pretty awesome. And I love the fact that it's possible. However, I've never, ever seen it happen against a caster with the puri proc. I've seen people try but then the puri proc goes off. It has nothing to do with the skill or preparedness of the caster. Nobody was arguing about unorganized. I don't mind not being able to kill them, but if r999 bms are saying they are having trouble killing them I believe them. Because it's hard for a coordinated group to even keep them pinned down, and with no negative side effects and with no counters.

trands wrote: »

I think you didn't notice but,

<== caster with purify proc on weap and the OP armor that goes with it

What they use for that is sleep, mainly clerics are good at this. I don't know if you have a puri proc, but a group of 5 spread out bm/sin/clerics kept me at place more then once. Any 20vs1 situation by definition involves idiots, since there should be 3 of those 20 waiting at flag spawns.

After that, it's a bit mixed up imo. A r999 bm should be able to put up a decent fight agains a r999 caster. Or did you mean that r999 bms have trouble killing a group of players below their level. And they were arguing about unorganised. Didn't a bm complain earlier about others "assisting him" ?

Eh, your a stone face. Anyway, I mean it's harder to do that to a caster with puri proc, I've never seen it happen personally although I've seen it many times against the melee classes. Every time I thought it might happen, the proc would activate and the caster would get away. It's a pretty difficult thing to get to happen. Not enough to call it frequent, but enough to say that it's much more likely to happen against one of them. They shouldn't have any trouble mopping the floor once they get unlocked, no matter the class. But you don't have to get the kill to win a battle in NW, you only have to keep the other side form getting the flag long enough to cap it twice. A weapon proc that has no costs, and requires from no skill to use, that makes it ridiculously to capture the flag is inherently OP for such a situation. OFC that doesn't mean it should be nerfed. :P

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Eh, your a stone face. Anyway, I mean it's harder to do that to a caster with puri proc, I've never seen it happen personally although I've seen it many times against the melee classes. Every time I thought it might happen, the proc would activate and the caster would get away. It's a pretty difficult thing to get to happen. Not enough to call it frequent, but enough to say that it's much more likely to happen against one of them. They shouldn't have any trouble mopping the floor once they get unlocked, no matter the class. But you don't have to get the kill to win a battle in NW, you only have to keep the other side form getting the flag long enough to cap it twice. A weapon proc that has no costs, and requires from no skill to use, that makes it ridiculously to capture the flag is inherently OP for such a situation. OFC that doesn't mean it should be nerfed. :P

b:laugh I don't blame you for not having studied and memoriezed all the pages

The point is, I've ran into several smart squads that even though I outgear them, can disable me the time their fast guys capture the flag. Ofc, it takes a bunch of them, well positioned and sync enough not to make stupid moves. But I've encountered enough of those groups to prefer going in squads of 2~4 poeple.

Because Azura just brought it up...

how2kill a r9rr caster with puri wep:

1. Cleric SoG's while they're not anti-stunned
2. Veno purges+amps
3. BM stuns+Blade Hurls as SoG is about to come off
4. Meanwhile, everyone else that actually deals damage is ready to start blasting the caster once SoG is down and Blade Hurl's active

hai dead puri caster

Now of course, it won't always work like that. Stupid **** happens or the caster in question still has apoth up. But generally, yes this would be how you kill said caster.

Also, because it was brought up earlier, basic how2stunlock puri wep people as a sin (note that this also works for...well, everyone else as well):

1. Headhunt (do not attack afterwards)
2. Occult Ice (do not attack afterwards)
3. Telestun (do not attack afterwards)
4. Deep Sting (do not attack afterwards)
5. If you catch them in the air due to them jumping or trying to land, Tackling Slash (do not attack afterwards)
6. If puri procs, Throatcut (do not attack afterwards until puri is off then proceed to cycle through everything again)
7. If you need chi, Rising Dragon Strike, but make sure you have Throatcut up in case puri procs (do not attack afterwards)

The key is to just wait out the duration of the stuns and chain a new one as the old one wears off. b:cute It works, trust me. I had an 8x sin with Hook and Thorns shadow me in a few wars last NW that only did this and s/he should have been crowned MVP sin. b:cute

If you're having problems doing this because people are dumb and keep hitting the puri user, then that's not the fault of puri proc. That's the fault of your nation for being ****ing dumb as bricks. b:cute

Actually Eoria, here is what I think is a better strategy.

1. Ep uses SoG, when the caster doesn't have any anti-stun buff.
2. Veno debuffs.
3. While the veno is debuffing the caster bm starts Blade Tornado...

SoG cannot be purfied, you are sealed and paralized, and at the same time the damage you receive is decreased greatly. It's almost imposible to die under SoG's effect BUT

Blade Tornado ignores the damage reduction, and the skill does full damage. One r9-3 bm could be enough to kill a r9-3 caster.

4. By the time SoG is about to end, the caster will probably have its charm ticked arleady and close to half of its hp. So at this time everyone should launch some strong attack when SoG finishes to finish off the caster...f:scared

Edit: After some consideration, my strategy is not better, just a different approach.

I don't think people are saying it's impossible to kill full +12 r93 with purify wep, but it does take alot more effort compared to any class without purify wep. Ofcourse there is ways to kill them, i'm sure even the worst troll here knows.

r9rr archer solo vs 20x 60-99level tt gears on Sunday NW. OP archer 1hit everyone and WIN.

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't think you understand that having a +12 purify weapon with +5 on the rest of your gear is not going to get you anywhere. You keep on saying that casters can get away with a high refined weapon and lower refined armor, it's simply not true. If people see you with the R93 weapon they are going to focus fire you, and that +5 armor is going to do ***** all.

This is the reason why I facepalm when I see casters with R9R weapon and +5 first cast rank 9 armor. That weapon is not going to save them if they do not have the HP/DEF to soak up some damage.

I never meant to imply that they werent going to get their *** handed to them IF people can get near them/enough people can in fact coordinate and attack at the same time, but still chances are they will be far more likely to get away with said scenario then a bm/melee ever would. Though yes in this scenario the purify proc is a less of a worry since their gears arent refined all the way up, but still as I pointed out before even early end game casters are hard to take down for g16 users, my damage still pales in comparsion to yours, if you can survive a few hits, or just own the snot out of me with a haxed refine weapon, then you wont have to worry about how badly refined your gear is, melees on the other hand have much more to worry about than a caster does. but really this is just to show that in this case its not so much the proc as a few of you have been arguing, its more the gear of the 20/how well they can prevent you all from doing what you all do best, and that is undoubtedly kill.

In a 20 vs 1 its much easier to see if the 1 has a potential haxed weapon, but when the numbers are more even, its definitely easier to slip on by unoticed what gear you have, I don't pay attention to what weapon the person has that is hitting me, I just focus on TRYING.. and often failing to get near them to try to stop their onslaught, and its the worse on the bm since the shields are rubbish in mass pvp. (its costly keeping the chi up to possibly stun lock someone.) As zanryu pointed out it will definitely be harder to see others weapons now with weapon fash out.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting any caster to do this, I am just saying its easier for them to get away with it than a melee class.

Some of you may bring up the pve aspect of this where it was easier for a melee class to do it vice versa, and this is indeed a valid and fair point; however, that was pve this is pvp, where balance is a tough subject for all to agree on. Granted balance is hard to agree on period, I think people care less if something is extremely overpowered in pve, as it generally benedfits the whole squad, and not just one person. (or seems like it benefits one greatly while others severely struggle to stop it in pvp, though yes there was quite a fair amount of how overpowered aps was in pve, but pretty much everyone was agreeing on that fact, but yea that was pve not pvp, pvp their should be balance everywhere you look, having to have a specifc class/person in the right mind set and the right circumstance to beat a caster full r93r +12 josd, with the purify proc on weapon is just rather ridicolous imo. )

trands wrote: »

@ Slivaf : If you run through the pages, you'll see how there is another argument brought up each time the previous is being countered. At some point it's the fact that the proc makes casters OP flag carriers, then it's that they have it to easy against a squad undergeared compared to them, then it's because they can run away, then it's NW only, then it's open world pvp, then it's 1vs1. I just find it got a bit too ridiculous.

I don't realy see the point of your example. If you have such a good squad, they wouldn't have problems pinning down a caster either. And anyway, the bm should be thougher then the caster when playing shooting duck.

I do agree the biggest issue is being able to run away like your flash, but still, the point is it is easier for a caster to run instead of fight. (if their gear does indeed allow it.)

As for the last part yes there is ways to prevent the purify proc from being an issue, but stilll with the fact that it has 0 cooldown, no chi cost, it would still be easier for the caster to zip away, (a melee could break away potentially but it is a lot less likely) all the things listed to stop it could easily be on cooldown, (the same thing could in fact be said about the ways I listed to prevent a bm/melee from running away) not to mention if your stunlocking on a bm chances are you arent looking for the proc of a weapon to break the lock, ergo you rely on your normal timing, which is absolutely enough of a window to break away if the caster has strong enough gear, and the fact it has no cooldown + speed boost, it is as you said overpowered in that sense. Even if your watching the buffs there is absolutely a delay to put the next stun move on them. (there is indeeed the fact that they're immuned to the stuns.) Granted I admit this does indeed become more of an issue if you have ppl helping you take down the r93r caster, and chances are you will need it if they are r93r +12 all gears with josd, but again as you have pointed out if the 20 is as coordinated/skilled enough to stunlock a bm, then they should be able to do the same to caster regardless otf the casters gear/proc on the weapon... or at least that is indeed the theory. its hard to find 20 random people to coordinate well enough to do either scenario, and I think it would be harder still to find ppl that could do it to a caster class, cooldowns aren't anyones friends when trying to keep a caster class from running amok with the purify skill.

Though yes this is just one side of the argument, others have brought up good points on how it could possibly be stopped, (the purify proc on weapon) but still the fact remains no TRUE coolodown + speed buff makes it rather overpowered.

Also for the record I am aware of the arguments for the last 10 pages or so, I have been following this thread, there has as you said been quite a few back and forth.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I never meant to imply that they werent going to get their *** handed to them IF people can get near them/enough people can in fact coordinate and attack at the same time, but still chances are they will be far more likely to get away with said scenario then a bm/melee ever would. Though yes in this scenario the purify proc is a less of a worry since their gears arent refined all the way up, but still as I pointed out before even early end game casters are hard to take down for g16 users, my damage still pales in comparsion to yours, if you can survive a few hits, or just own the snot out of me with a haxed refine weapon, then you wont have to worry about how badly refined your gear is, melees on the other hand have much more to worry about than a caster does. but really this is just to show that in this case its not so much the proc as a few of you have been arguing, its more the gear of the 20/how well they can prevent you all from doing what you all do best, and that is undoubtedly kill.

If this whole thing comes down to survivability, it doesnt matter if you have purify proc or not if you have 6k hp. What makes purify proc op is the fact that noobs make it easier to survive. If you have 6k hp unbuffed, you probably aren't running around with a well refined cube neck, let alone a high grade one. The noobs that are hitting a r9r3+12 jade caster for 100-200 will hit that caster for 400-800. If there is another decently geared person around (+10 g16/r9 let alone r9r3) they'll be hitting at least 2-3k. Purify is a non-issue since they person doesn't have the survivability to utilize it.

Purify is comparable to a psy's SoS/SoV. Yes, they're moderately helpful if you have +5 refines, but they won't be significant until you really get the refines up there, though purify requires the addition of gems too.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Agreed, I was trying to cover that in both of my last posts, but unforunately both times it got lost in the ramblings (mostly of my own doing) surrounding it.

However I do think it would be easier for a caster to get away with it more than a melee ever could, and also tbh I doubt that they simply just have 6k hp even at +5 r9/r93r gear, (As matter of fact I ama use pwcalc to test that theory of mine) but that has some intaniglbles to it as well. A melee class you can hit from a distance without too much worry about them retailiating back, so their weapon is less of a threat to you, but when a caster has a nicely refeind weapon, their gear becomes... less of an issue DEPENDING on who they are fighing. They have the advantage with or without the purify proc.... but if a caster has full r93r +12 josd.. that is where the puurify proc becomes quite troublesome for MANY MANY people. (but again the weapon skill/gear doesnt make them invincible It just makes it harder to stop their reign of terror.

But then that goes back to the overall OPness of r9r3. The same could be said of an archer, seeker, or sin. A barb or bm with decent gear could also go around 1 shotting lower geared people, it's just a less viable build since you need to run up before hitting someone (though with barb/bm speed, a distracted caster won't get away without a little difficulty)

This also defeats the purpose of different classes in the first place. Don't complain about choosing a class that exists in a primarily supportive or damage absorbing role. Complaining that a damage dealing class can do so more effectively without refining the armor is redundant, the primary function IS to kill stuff.

Adroit, As far as wizard vs sin 1 v 1 goes, I can understand that a wizard would get locked alot 1v1ing a sin. But that is expected, since thats how the class is designed, and that is why its unique.

I tried to do some mathematical calculations to see how much our experiences differ, however, it is really hard to predict the possible out come of a battle, with or without purify proc since there are so many factors involved. My experiences for the damage output of an Assassin differs from yours. In my experience, an assassin is unable to out DD a wizard's charm through pure DD. They require comboing skill to increase their damage, but those are the cases that the wizard use their genie. But again, there are a lot of things involved in both our experiences - including the cultivation for the wizard.

I understand that sins are hard to kill 1 v 1, and that does fit with my experience. However, in my opinion that is simply the class' design since sins were given so many single target control skills. It's like a barb having multiple damage reduction skills, a bm having multiple aoe stun, a wizard being the only class to effectively use genie spark, and so on. However, if a sin is wasting a lot of time controlling you to prevent themselves from dying, then they will equally have a hard time killing you since they will be unable to combo their skills. I do not believe that a sin can maintain both an effective stunlock while DDing you to death at the same time. Each class has their own pros and cons. A BM is hard to kill as well, as long as they keep magic marrow up, while an archer is not as hard to kill since they can mainly only DD.

If we are talking at this level, that purify proc should be given to arcanes to balance the fact that sins have too many single target control skills, then we are talking far more than just purify proc. We would have to figure out how we define the role of each class. Balance would have to take everything into account.

In my opinion, an assassin excels in single target control, but they fall short when trying to control multiple targets, and that is why BMs are far more essential in TW. Meanwhile, a wizard is an excellent long range DD which allows them to kill far better than an assassin in mass pvp, and as a result they do not have as many anti stun skills. I feel this is what defines each class. Giving purify proc makes wizard better at something they're not, but there are things that Assassins are not good at either, but thats how the class is.

I can see why we might want to give wizard a boost against assassins 1 v 1, but can we really say the same for all cases? Do wizards need a boost against an archer 1 v 1? Do arcanes need a purify boost against each other? Do wizards need a boost to survive better in mass pk? Then there are support classes, who can survive so much better than necessary since their main focus is to kite and not to kill.

If we truly want to balance the game to the extent where all classes sort of similarly perform in pvp, then purify is not the answer. Purify only serves to balance a very small range of situations, where as in other situations it is completely unnecessary. Having multiple people hit you in mass pvp, even if also r9rr, will in theory decrease your survival. However, unless they 1 shot you, they also have a chance to activate purify. If you are getting hit in mass pk, purify proc does not always activate on the 14th hit where you die. In many cases, it can activate on the first, the second, the 6th hit and so on, which allows you to run away, recover completely, and come back again. You can't DD on something not in range. Not all classes hit the same damage. Some classes are DPS based (e.g. archers) while others are more DPH based. Depending on who is attacking, getting ganked will at times increase your survival even against full r9rrs.

Another question is, do we want this game to be more luck based? While theoretically the proc rate is always 5-8%, I have multiple times had people proc purify on my first hit on them. Some people I know always get saved by purify. Others I know never proc purify when they truly need it.

Even if we accept that a wizard do need a boost against sins in 1 v 1, do they need a boost everywhere else? Do ALL arcanes need a boost against ALL aspects of the game? In my opinion the answer is no.

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

5 days, almost 300 posts, and the % balance of the votes has barely changed since this started and only had about 36 votes.

I'd say that pretty much settles it. Wouldn't you?

Votes without reasons are pointless votes. If a GM REALLY cared about balance, they would read through all the votes and evaluate the points from both sides.

If its just about what people liked, then theres no point in having a poll anyway.

adroit - Lost City wrote: »

although This Isn't A Wiz Vs Sin, I Can See Some Definite Similarities In This Video To What I Experience Fighting Sins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcjxar4uc8&feature=youtu.be The Major Differences Is That In The Fights I'm Talking About, Both Characters Are More Tanky, But You Can See How That Kind Of Skill Spam/cc Can Have Nasty Damage Too. I Still Plan To Post A Vid Of Me Vs Bait In The Future, But It Has Been Delayed A Little For Reasons I Can't Discuss On The Forums Atm. Anyway, This Problem Is Not Limited To Just Sins.. You're Just Going To Have To Take My Word For It Because I Don't Intend To Write Several More Walls Of Text Explaining How Wiz Vs Every Class Is (and Different Examples Of Group Pvp), But Purify Is Balanced Just Fine When Everyone Is Equal Gear (1v1s Or Group Pvp Or Anything Of The Like). You Haven't Really Brought Up Anything New, And I Don't Feel Like Repeating The Same Things I've Already Said Again.. So I'm Just Going To Leave It Like This.

+1 Sin Op