Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

163 v. 103 is not that even, lol

the lower geared casters, melees, and archers are against it

OP casters and aspiring OP casters are for it

Tsyn - Raging Tide

I'm counting both those who want "Mod" and "Kill" under the same category.
Technically, deleting something is fiddling with it.
And I'm weakly geared, compared to some. Still don't want it to be deleted.

At the time of this post - 55% keep - 45% mod

Adroit - Lost City

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Adroit: Guessing that the sin in question was Bait? He seems to triple spark a lot and kite when tidal is off, from what I've seen.

Either way, this is about (for me at least) Purify proc in multi-person PvP. I'm not at all concerned with it's 1v1 capabilities. However, the fact remains that Purify Proc remains rather overclocked when dealing with multiple opponents, and the number of hits taken increases survivability exponentially (which should be the other way around). Sin vs Wiz does not matter to me - in fact, I agree that wizards should retain Purify proc, at least the purify and antistun, for 1v1ing them.

I still believe that something like Asterelle's solution - a CD - or else removing the Speed buff - should be done.

I also believe that I should still restate this: Purify Proc is a different sort of effect, and this is why it is so complained about much right now. It, besides "Infinite", is the only proc that I know of that activates without using a skill/dealing damage. GoF/Purge/etc etc are all based off the user's ability to fire enough shots off that the % blesses them with a proc.

However, Purify proc does not require the caster to use any skills. Because it is attached to the "defensive" part of PvP - taking damage, and not the "offensive" part - using or dealing damage - it is remarkably different from what we've experienced before.

Therefore, a caster does not have to deal damage to benefit from it. This lowers the amount of skill needed. Even APS was never this "Requisite: Skill not needed."

Currently, this poll is about 50/50, which would lead me to believe that most casters are voting for it, and melees against. However.... I still believe the Devs ought to at least rebalance it slightly.

Haha, you're right.. I was talking about Bait :P

Against r9rr opponents, having more people hitting you does not increase survival.. it decreases it. Every single argument I've heard against purify proc includes people comparing r9rr to lesser gears, which as I've already said I don't think should be considered when talking about balance. Balance should only be talked about with people of equal gear, where purify proc is not OP.

You've mentioned several times that purify is different from other stuff in game, but I find this very unconvincing. Being different is not an argument, nor is describing how it works nor the benefits of it. You did compare it to other weapon procs, but as you've already said.. they are very different and difficult to compare. I think the best way to really determine how it balances is to go by examples from in game that take everything into account.

Do you think that if everyone was at end game gear that purify would still be an issue? If so, I think you are wrong and lack experience, if not.. I think you are arguing that there should be a better balance between new and old gears. Do you fit into either of those viewpoints?

burningsweetfire

Basically the argument here is one party is refusing to give up what they have, another party is refusing to let go of the fact that Purify Spell is making casters impossible to beat, and another party that want to at least modify Purify Spell.

Adroit - Lost City

burningsweetfire wrote: »

Basically the argument here is one party is refusing to give up what they have, another party is refusing to let go of the fact that Purify Spell is making casters impossible to beat, and another party that want to at least modify Purify Spell.

Your "fact" is wrong.

darknessofmy

Anyone see equal op gears caster vs non caster? 75% of server are aps nubs!

Tsyn - Raging Tide

@Adroit - Post a damn vid. I haven't seen many competent wizards fighting sins since the APS days, and you both are among the best I've seen. Wear weapon fashion.

I guess I kind of am arguing for the other people with lesser gear. Perhaps you're right about lesser people trying to kill a better-geared player - however, your 20v1's, while impressive, seem just too counter intuitive. Shouldn't 20 wolves be able to kill a bear?

I'm also comparing S3 arcanes to their S3 melee counterparts. Here's a good example, that takes everything into account: An S3 barb can tank roughly 20 G16/S1 attackers. Yes, they'll live. However, they'll be locked to hell and be unable to do anything.
An S3 arcane will also tank roughly 20 G16/S1 attackers. However, there's a difference between the two: The S3 arcane can run around freely, given Purify proc, and thus kill/escape opponents. An S3 barb, short of popping antistun and praying for a good AoE, cannot replicate that feat.

Yes, I agree at the fact that multiple S3s can and will take down a S3 wizard given similar gears - however, the player in question isn't really tanking much for more than about 10 seconds - 1 charm tick. The rest of the time they're racing far ahead of the competition, both literally and figuratively.

One might argue that I'm arguing that arcanes are outperforming melees for the 1st time. This is not the case on several levels - 1, I'm arguing for group PvP mechanics, and 2, I'm arguing for balance, not indignation at the fact that melees are finally falling behind. I argued for an APS cap when it was overpowered, and I'm arguing something to deal with Purify in group PvP now.

@darknessofmy: Yes, I have. Also, I kill S3 casters 1v1 in my half aps/half R8s2 gear. It's group PvP, in my opinion, that's the problem. 1v1s are fine the way they are.

burningsweetfire

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Your "fact" is wrong.

I'm just saying what other people are saying. I think this thread reached to the point that it isn't worth continuing and I don't see the developers changing Purify Spell anytime soon.

Adroit - Lost City

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Adroit - Post a damn vid. I haven't seen many competent wizards fighting sins since the APS days, and you both are among the best I've seen.

I guess I kind of am arguing for the other people with lesser gear. Perhaps you're right about lesser people trying to kill a better-geared player - however, your 20v1's, while impressive, seem just too good to be true.
However, I've never seen even an S3 barb tank more than a couple - say 20 - people with decent G16 nirv/S1 gear. Even then, the barb in question will be sealed, stunned, and locked to hell. A purify proc target will easily escape and survive. I'm not really comparing S3 arcanes to their S1 attackers - I'm comparing S3 arcanes to their S3 melee counterparts in group PvP.

Yes, I agree at the fact that multiple S3s can and will take down a S3 wizard given similar gears - however, the player in question isn't really tanking much for more than about 10 seconds - 1 charm tick. The rest of the time they're racing far ahead of the competition, both literally and figuratively.

Haha I think that would be easier, I'll see if I can add a 1v1 with Bait in my next vid (hopefully in next couple weeks.. real life eating away at my free time atm).

I do think you're right that an end game wizard is a better flag carrier than a barb, but a barb would still be a much better cata puller imo. So in that sense, I could see why people would be up in arms about purify. One funny story, on the first page Azura talked about the last NW I was a part of (short summary is half of our party DC'd going in.. and we ended up in opposite nations and fighting each other). We had one really good fight, it timed out, the end score after 25 mins was 17-14 (iirc) and I grabbed the flag I think every single time for my team (meaning I scored once, died 6 times with flag) and Azura scored once and died twice I think (and flash died once with the flag). There were plenty of other noobs in the NW, but it was very difficult to score against just a few coordinated r9rr for either me or Azura.. which I think supports my assertion that proc isn't much of an issue when you go against equally geared opponents. It was the same 2-3 people that kept stopping me (usually azura purge, amp, turn me into that funny looking puffbird thing.. then I got destroyed by Bait/Flash before I could even barrier again).. and pretty sure I was pretty much the only reason Azura went down. I guess all I'm saying is that it is not impossible to stop an end game caster, it actually isn't even that difficult given similar gear.. the problem is only there when everyone else is undergeared/noob (and now I'm just repeating myself).

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Haha, you're right.. I was talking about Bait :P

Against r9rr opponents, having more people hitting you does not increase survival.. it decreases it. Every single argument I've heard against purify proc includes people comparing r9rr to lesser gears, which as I've already said I don't think should be considered when talking about balance. Balance should only be talked about with people of equal gear, where purify proc is not OP.

You've mentioned several times that purify is different from other stuff in game, but I find this very unconvincing. Being different is not an argument, nor is describing how it works nor the benefits of it. You did compare it to other weapon procs, but as you've already said.. they are very different and difficult to compare. I think the best way to really determine how it balances is to go by examples from in game that take everything into account.

Do you think that if everyone was at end game gear that purify would still be an issue? If so, I think you are wrong and lack experience, if not.. I think you are arguing that there should be a better balance between new and old gears. Do you fit into either of those viewpoints?

While you are probably right about the difference in gears, I still don't agree with you at all about it staying as is... it should be changed, as I and so many others have stated.

A 20 vs 1 has a plethora of intangibles to consider, but still the fact remains casters have quite a few things going for them that melees do not. They (casters\ranged ppl) hit real hard, and they can hit from anywhere as long as they are in range, most people even in rather decent endgame gear are quite an easy kill for a r93r caster, hell a lot are an easy kill for the first r9 set. All this among other things that have been mentioned before makes it far easier for a caster to solo a 20 vs 1 map. The purify skill just makes it harder for people to take casters down. Also more people hitting you does give it a better chance of procing, yes all the damage adds up, but if they don't have a real badass weapon, chances are you charm, apo, and you weapon will proc long before the collective damage could kill a caster. (depending on who they are/are up against... the damage they're taking etc... it has always been far easier for a caster class to kill melee classes, it is like that in any game with a similar theme.)

I read earlier in this post someone mentioning that a team of full r9 couldn't beat a r93r from what I understood from their post, and again it just really depends on the 20, the gear difference between r9 and r93r is actually closer, than g16 - r93r. (Weapons as we all know are the ones that do the damage, and if a few of them are refined to +10 or so its highly unlikely that the purify proc on a r93r would do the r93r much good if those r9 ppl had any coordination. Yes THERE is a difference in the survivability etc, but really I think that the difference in gears from nirvy g16-r93r is NOT as significant as you make it out to be, yes I see the difference, but as you have stated/others have it depends on their skill, if they don't know their class well, or have a REALLY badly refine weapon they don't stand a chance in hell, but when you add in the purify proc on a weapon, I think it becomes significantly harder for any group of 20 no matter how well coordinated they are to beat someone with that proc. (Really I have only seen a few examples on how to defeat it, and all seems to require this or that condition to be met. I.E Blade hurl has to proc right/not purifed off by a cleric. Their is also indeed sleep skills that will still affect a 'purify' proc on a weapon, but really by the time someone realizes your weapon has proced you will likely be long gone, and out of range for any of the skills that could stop you. I really don't see how the skill is balanced in mass pvp.)

Also as I mentioned earlier in this thread... it is far easier for casters to get away with refining the hell out of a weapon, and neglecting their gear for nw than it is for a ha class. (bms specifically) There is indeed as you mentioned quite a few things to take into consideration then just the purify proc on the r9r3/r8 recast weapons, there is also the refines on the weapon, the apo being used, whether someone is fully buffed, is using charms (weapon/def/hp/mp), and the list goes on and on. I am sure you could list more than I could what all anyone could do to help themselves/others in a mass/single pvp setting.

I too am in doubt that a single 'melee' r93r could ever really take on 20 somewhat skilled g16 people and really do what a caster with the purify proc could. (the cumulative damage on a melee class is far more than what a caster would CONSTANTLY have to deal with, especially with the purify proc. caster classes hit harder than melees do, not to mention no melee class has something like others have pointed out a passive skill that allows to survive/take the flag to the capture point at a ridiculous high success rate.)

One more thing, although this might be seen as backseat modding/or some other thing, I don't care I am still going to state this:

If a mod deems it necessary to close a thread then he or she can, it is their eyes/mind that is in control of this place. We may not all agree with some of the rules of society but we still follow them for the most part, and some of the justifications for closure while poorly thought out/worded are still in the end for the better.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Every single argument I've heard against purify proc includes people comparing r9rr to lesser gears, which as I've already said I don't think should be considered when talking about balance.

Stinky stuff from the rear end of a bull if you ask me. NW is not only made for R9.3s So yes of course it should be considered. There could be some point if you would not want to consider the balance between the lowly nirvana+10s and R9.3s, but that is not all there is. The R9.3 caster is walking around in the same environment as the R9.3 mellee. The melee guy dies when 20 of those lowlies attack him, the caster survives. That is imbalance among the R9.3s. And when the R9.3 caster fights the R9.3 melee, the caster will kill the melee faster when he gets help from some lowlies. The melee will be disadvantaged when there are some lowlies helping him. That again is imbalance among these equally geared chars.

So its rediculous to say these lesser geared players should not be considered in the whole balance discussion. They are part of the environment you both play in. Suppose R9.3 melees get something that make them run 15m/s and get 50% extra magic resistance whenever they are on grass. Would you say you should not include that in the balance discussion ? Grass is part of the environment just as low geared players are part of the NW and to some extend the TW environment. (a lesser extend because the R9.3 players have control over the presence of these players and their "education" as when to attack a caster and when not.)

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver

if the argument against purify has to do with the run fast then what about archers? With apoth ,holy path at start, and their own skills they run the flag faster than anyclass including any purify user.

klys

Because people have to be a buncha whiny nubs when they're undergeared/unskilled.

burningsweetfire

klys wrote: »

Because people have to be a buncha whiny nubs when they're undergeared/unskilled.

I always learned not to whine and start doing something to improve yourself... sadly some people are too lazy to do that. =\

Adroit - Lost City

So I'm not really even sure what people are arguing for now. Is it that one person being able to kill 20 people is the problem, or is it that r9rr casters are better at pwning noobs than r9rr melee chars are?

Whichever the case, it doesn't seem anybody is still seriously arguing that purify is unbalanced at equal gear (finally..), but the suggestions to balance it with lesser gear still seem to be supported. Any serious nerf to purify would likely mess up the balance for those at equal gear (when it is already close to balanced, and you change one side.. obviously it would mess that balance up), which presumably means people would also be in favor of nerfing something for the other classes as well. Basically people are just unhappy how much better new gear is than the previous gear.. and forget it is in the interests of the company for the new gear to dominate the old (if you could get by with the old gear, would you throw more money in game for the new stuff?) Being a wearer of end game gear myself, I think purify proc was a creative way to balance the classes a bit more (especially in conjunction with the morai update).. and I really don't think the devs have any obligation to make sure old gear is competitive with the new.

ovenusarmanio

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

So I'm not really even sure what people are arguing for now. Is it that one person being able to kill 20 people is the problem, or is it that r9rr casters are better at pwning noobs than r9rr melee chars are?

Okay here is an example. I was in a 13v1 with the 1 being some seeker with amazing gear (don't remember if he was r999 but it was enough to solo some of the g16s in there as well) who had been previously soloing the 11v1 before me and my cleric friend joined in. Since he was busy fighting some bm that could actually damage him, I waited for the right opportunity then kept him stunlocked as well as I could. The cleric helped and slept him while I ate a chi pot and so on and so forth. When he got out of the lock not a terribly long time later, he stopped what he was doing against the bm and he killed me so hard that I'm sure my bm's grandchildren felt it. But guess what? It was too late for him to stop the flag runner. Although our gear may not have been anywhere as good, we were able to work together to keep him locked down and win the instance. That's kind of way a 13v1 should work, you should be able to use teamwork ie suicide stuns, to beat the person in OP gear. Even the moron sins that are just aps'ing their target only, that damage should add on top of everyone elses damage and decrease survival odds. There isn't good reason why teamwork should increase the odds of losing against a singular opponent no matter the gear involved. With a caster with purify proc, my interference would have actually increased the odds of the caster winning. That's just crazytown bananapants.

Although it is completely and totally unfair in that aspect, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be nerfed. So I won't comment on that. There are way more factors than something like that should be taken into consideration whenever you're talking about nerfing gear. But it is nevertheless a valid criticism of the proc. And that's the extent if affects me so I'll let more experienced minds than mine argue for or against the purify proc.

Adroit - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Okay here is an example. I was in a 13v1 with the 1 being some seeker with amazing gear (don't remember if he was r999 but it was enough to solo some of the g16s in there as well) who had been previously soloing the 11v1 before me and my cleric friend joined in. Since he was busy fighting some bm that could actually damage him, I waited for the right opportunity then kept him stunlocked as well as I could. The cleric helped and slept him while I ate a chi pot and so on and so forth. When he got out of the lock not a terribly long time later, he stopped what he was doing against the bm and he killed me so hard that I'm sure my bm's grandchildren felt it. But guess what? It was too late for him to stop the flag runner. Although our gear may not have been anywhere as good, we were able to work together to keep him locked down and win the instance. That's kind of way a 13v1 should work, you should be able to use teamwork ie suicide stuns, to beat the person in OP gear. Even the moron sins that are just aps'ing their target only, that damage should add on top of everyone elses damage and decrease survival odds. There isn't good reason why teamwork should increase the odds of losing against a singular opponent no matter the gear involved. With a caster with purify proc, my interference would have actually increased the odds of the caster winning. That's just crazytown bananapants.

Although it is completely and totally unfair in that aspect, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be nerfed. So I won't comment on that. There are way more factors than something like that should be taken into consideration whenever you're talking about nerfing gear. But it is nevertheless a valid criticism of the proc. And that's the extent if affects me so I'll let more experienced minds than mine argue for or against the purify proc.

You can lock up a purify user almost exactly the same as you would a seeker, the only difference is you don't random DD during the control skill duration. A single 10x ep with no gear could keep a caster locked down almost indefinitely with chain seal of the gods and sleep.. a bm could just stun lock like normal (but without DD in between stuns) and save smack/blade hurl for when a proc goes off (which is very rare.. you are unlikely to even get 1 proc a minute if the person locking you up isn't a total derp). I've had a sin (Bait) lock me up for entire NWs so I couldn't do anything useful.. the only trick is to have a little teamwork where you make sure nobody else starts hitting for non-factor damage and activates the proc. I don't find your example even remotely convincing tbh

ovenusarmanio

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You can lock up a purify user almost exactly the same as you would a seeker, the only difference is you don't random DD during the control skill duration. A single 10x ep with no gear could keep a caster locked down almost indefinitely with chain seal of the gods and sleep.. a bm could just stun lock like normal (but without DD in between stuns) and save smack/blade hurl for when a proc goes off (which is very rare.. you are unlikely to even get 1 proc a minute if the person locking you up isn't a total derp). I've had a sin (Bait) lock me up for entire NWs so I couldn't do anything useful.. the only trick is to have a little teamwork where you make sure nobody else starts hitting for non-factor damage and activates the proc. I don't find your example even remotely convincing tbh

How many people do you know can stop 13 random strangers that don't even have the battle chat screen active from doing random dd. What about chi? It's a factor in bm stuns even if you don't DD it between them. Getting a bit of chi off the seeker got me an extra roar, but would be more likely to set off the purify proc. Not to mention some of the damaging moves that are being used primarily for their ability to stun could just as easily trigger it. What about the fact that if you're at a stand still with a couple of people of similar gear, that random DD could be enough to take down the melee but it could always trigger the proc from the casters. The team work comes from getting the people who are listening to do what they need to and ignoring the others. Or do you actually expect everyone to take the time to whisper individually all the people that don't have that chat open. Because most flags are captured in about 30 seconds, you dont' have time for that. Have you ever done NW against a purify proc on a character in non-endgame gear? Your options on what to do are severely hampered because you have to worry about accidentally setting it off. There shouldn't be any reason even a random DD should increase the odds of your survival, when they decrease the odds of every single last other character.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You can lock up a purify user almost exactly the same as you would a seeker, the only difference is you don't random DD during the control skill duration. A single 10x ep with no gear could keep a caster locked down almost indefinitely with chain seal of the gods and sleep.. a bm could just stun lock like normal (but without DD in between stuns) and save smack/blade hurl for when a proc goes off (which is very rare.. you are unlikely to even get 1 proc a minute if the person locking you up isn't a total derp). I've had a sin (Bait) lock me up for entire NWs so I couldn't do anything useful.. the only trick is to have a little teamwork where you make sure nobody else starts hitting for non-factor damage and activates the proc. I don't find your example even remotely convincing tbh

You are just too biased to even be part of this discussion.
You spout the word noob as if it's the only word you know, to which I'm starting to get the feeling you consider everyone that is geared lessed than yourself to be one.

If you got locked by just a sin and you couldn't kill it, then you are the one doing something wrong.

The problem lies within what you're saying yourself, you can only lock an OP caster, if you even try as much as to kill it the proc is bound to trigger and you're pretty much screwed because lol catch me if you can.

Apart from that, this is what people get for whining constantly about nerfing APS and anything else from other classes, now it became a non-factor because it's pointless to APS in PvP.
Now people return the favour and complain about someone elses advantage and everyone is all like "BUT MUH BALANCE DO NOT TOUCH".

It's a broken proc to no ends on end gear.

(Do notice that OP caster here is the important part, because some caster with just the weapon and some crappy refines are pretty much still 1-2 shots).

Adroit - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

How many people do you know can stop 13 random strangers that don't even have the battle chat screen active from doing random dd. What about chi? It's a factor in bm stuns even if you don't DD it between them. Getting a bit of chi off the seeker got me an extra roar, but would be more likely to set off the purify proc. Not to mention some of the damaging moves that are being used primarily for their ability to stun could just as easily trigger it. What about the fact that if you're at a stand still with a couple of people of similar gear, that random DD could be enough to take down the melee and trigger the proc from the casters. The team works come from getting the people who are listening to do what they need to and ignoring the others. Or do you actually expect everyone to take the time to whisper individually all the people that don't have that chat open. Have you ever done NW against a purify proc on a character in non-endgame gear? Your options on what to do are severely hampered because you have to worry about accidentally setting it off.

How many people do I know that can stop strangers from messing up a stun lock? Not sure, I know it's been done against me though (more than once I might add)

You can get chi with marrows, pdef buff, master li (if you are sage), genie, apoth, or from a veno passing sparks to you. Besides, you can hold someone in place quite a long time before you run out of chi.. in a 13v1 you could have a second person come over so you take turns locking and can build chi in between.

Proc can happen from some skills, but the proc chance is actually fairly low (generally estimated at between 5-8%).. so if you were to hit them maybe once every 5-10 seconds.. the proc is unlikely to happen even once a minute, and when it does happen.. you have smack or blade hurl to continue making them useless until the movement thingy goes away and you can continue the lock. Stun locks are never perfect anyway, what if you are trying to lock down an archer and you miss on one of your skills? Same thing really.

So I'm curious, would you be making these same arguments if you were a 3x bm trying to stop a r9 barb? Even if I were to concede there was nothing you could do (which in our scenario there certainly is stuff you can do).. it is irrelevant. Nobody expects a 3x bm to have any effect on a r9 barb.. and nobody complains that the 3x has nothing to do about it.. the expected response to a 3x whining about that is to level up/gear up and then you'll be able to have an impact. I keep repeating this same point and nobody has acknowledged it, I think this same kind of attitude should be applied to purify proc.. if you have less than r9rr, you can't expect to be able to compete (even though there are things you can do to **** them off).

Anyway I'm heading to bed, I feel like I'm just going in circles now.

Adroit - Lost City

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are just too biased to even be part of this discussion.
You spout the word noob as if it's the only word you know, to which I'm starting to get the feeling you consider everyone that is geared lessed than yourself to be one.

If you got locked by just a sin and you couldn't kill it, then you are the one doing something wrong.

The problem lies within what you're saying yourself, you can only lock an OP caster, if you even try as much as to kill it the proc is bound to trigger and you're pretty much screwed because lol catch me if you can.

Apart from that, this is what people get for whining constantly about nerfing APS and anything else from other classes, now it became a non-factor because it's pointless to APS in PvP.
Now people return the favour and complain about someone elses advantage and everyone is all like "BUT MUH BALANCE DO NOT TOUCH".

It's a broken proc to no ends on end gear.

(Do notice that OP caster here is the important part, because some caster with just the weapon and some crappy refines are pretty much still 1-2 shots).

When I say noob, I am primarily referring to people that are new to pvp and don't know what they are doing.. but I also lump in people with gear so dated they shouldn't even be participating in pvp events (lol r8 and below). The sin I was locked by was a full buffed r9rr +12 w/ nw upgrades sin that is actually one of the very few people on the server I consider good (Bait), so no.. I don't think it is all that surprising that he was able to essentially cancel us both out.

All those comments about the lock are for people with shet gear going against people that highly outgear them, it is almost the exact same advice I'd give them if they were going against ANY r9rr class.. the role of undergeared players is not to try to DD people they have no chance of killing, they are far more effective just ccing a target.

Also I'm sensing a bit of hostility in your post, do you fit into the lump I've been referring to as a noob or something?

ovenusarmanio

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

How many people do I know that can stop strangers from messing up a stun lock? Not sure, I know it's been done against me though (more than once I might add)

You can get chi with marrows, pdef buff, master li (if you are sage), genie, apoth, or from a veno passing sparks to you. Besides, you can hold someone in place quite a long time before you run out of chi.. in a 13v1 you could have a second person come over so you take turns locking and can build chi in between.

Proc can happen from some skills, but the proc chance is actually fairly low (generally estimated at between 5-8%).. so if you were to hit them maybe once every 5-10 seconds.. the proc is unlikely to happen even once a minute, and when it does happen.. you have smack or blade hurl to continue making them useless until the movement thingy goes away and you can continue the lock. Stun locks are never perfect anyway, what if you are trying to lock down an archer and you miss on one of your skills? Same thing really.

So I'm curious, would you be making these same arguments if you were a 3x bm trying to stop a r9 barb? Even if I were to concede there was nothing you could do (which in our scenario there certainly is stuff you can do).. it is irrelevant. Nobody expects a 3x bm to have any effect on a r9 barb.. and nobody complains that the 3x has nothing to do about it.. the expected response to a 3x whining about that is to level up/gear up and then you'll be able to have an impact. I keep repeating this same point and nobody has acknowledged it, I think this same kind of attitude should be applied to purify proc.. if you have less than r9rr, you can't expect to be able to compete (even though there are things you can do to **** them off).

Anyway I'm heading to bed, I feel like I'm just going in circles now.

Level 78=no smack, no blade hurl, no master li technique. (And honestly there isn't as many sage bms period anyway.) You gotta remember not every opponent you are coming across is going to have the same access to skills that you do. There are marrows but why should the bm be limited to marrows against a purify proc caster, when the same isn't true of anyone else? You gotta take into account all the people who are likely to be in NW. You wouldn't absolutely have to have a veno around just for chi if it was a melee. I'm not saying that purify proc casters are impossible to kill in that situation, i'm saying the purify proc is overpowered in that situation. There are no 3x anythings in NW, and while you can't expect to compete in earnest against someone of that level you can still be useful. I've gotten more tokens than many level 100 friends. A pittance to what you probably make, but I've received more than some people out gear, and out level me. I compete token wise just fine all things considering. Same with a lot of lowbies, or they would not be going. That's because even if they can't get kills, they can still be of assistance. Most battles I go to doesn't include a r999 caster. A r999 seeker I can annoy, a r999 barb I can annoy, a r999 caster with purify proc? I increase their odds of winning by even participating. And not just in the sense of filled battles being better off with an equally geared squad, but even in 20vs1. The same isn't true when the teamwork comes together against a r999 melee. Even barbs are easier to at the very least lockdown. Why should your odds increase of winning the more random dd is added to you, when the same is not true for even a cata barb? That's broken.

The other gears do matter because you ARE competing against them.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

the role of undergeared players is not to try to DD people they have no chance of killing, they are far more effective just ccing a target.

What it boils down to is this type of thing is made difficult for no cost, and through no effort at all by the proc which isn't the case for anyone else.

slamstone

all this could be solved with:

1. a nice set of dynamic mobs/touretts/exploding hands/whatever, that target only the flag carrier and puts a slow on it (that cant be purified or altered with speed skills/pots/procs)...same with TW.

2. set the flag effect to put a 2-6 seconds slow (that cant be purified or altered with speed skills/pots/procs) on the target once every 10-15 secs.

when it comes to pvp outside nw/tw i don't think it's that much of a QQ.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Also I'm sensing a bit of hostility in your post, do you fit into the lump I've been referring to as a noob or something?

Nope, I just don't support elitism as much as you do.
As much as I'm all for balance in the game, I don't see the balance purify proc brings as it is now.

Like I said, back in the APS days it were the caster who were whining about it, now you people get the favour returned due to a broken proc where you can either only lock someone and hope someone else comes to help you or someone with totally equal gear kill it.

While a lesser geared arcane (hurrr durrr anything below R9(rr) is lesser geared in your opinion anyway) could still deal significant damage against higher geared HA / LA user constantly, you can't do the opposite to a high geared arcane purely because of the proc.

You also failed to read one of my previous comments that it doesnt matter anymore once the king of the hill style NW comes into play in here. To which you also fail to comprehend I don't care so much at all about the proc, I just find it broken in general.

Just seems to me you're only reading what you want to read and you're the purist form of an elitist sitting on a high horse.

Either way, I'm out of this discussion, walls tend to be better listeners than some people.

trands

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Have you ever done NW against a purify proc on a character in non-endgame gear? Your options on what to do are severely hampered because you have to worry about accidentally setting it off. There shouldn't be any reason even a random DD should increase the odds of your survival, when they decrease the odds of every single last other character.

I've been in NW with some underlvl alts for the lolz. Wether being a group of undergeared vs some OP caster (or any other class) really depends on the random players in that group. The problem in NW is, those random usually guys want points rather then a general succes on a specific map and contribute for their nation. Honestly, an OP non caster is just as impossible to kill for a group of random low geared as an OP caster with puri. Just look at a random group trying to take down a charmed bm/barb/seeker. In those cases, it's about preventing that OP person from moving. In the case of a bm/barb, that's great : wack away and get some points. In the case of a puri caster, it's not so great : have a cleric sleep or a bm stun, but don't attack and get points.

It's obvious that a measure against stunlocks is goint to break stunlocks. Wether it's really justified, really depends on what, who and where. When really specifically looking at the NW issues, is it really an issue ? Wether it's the "1 OP caster can finish a group of lower geared faster then an OP other class if that group has no coordination" or the "Casters run to fast when attacked while carrying the flag" part, I really don't find that worth nerfing only the puri proc. Barbs, sins, archers and bms that can keep up an anti-stun 95% of the traject with the flag while being as fast is just as much off an issue. When I see spefic individuals of those classes, I actually spend a whole battle near the capture point, because that is the only place I can succesfully immobilize them and kill them (since they are to fast to land more then 1~2 skills).

ovenusarmanio

trands wrote: »

I've been in NW with some underlvl alts for the lolz. Wether being a group of undergeared vs some OP caster (or any other class) really depends on the random players in that group. The problem in NW is, those random usually guys want points rather then a general succes on a specific map and contribute for their nation. Honestly, an OP non caster is just as impossible to kill for a group of random low geared as an OP caster with puri. Just look at a random group trying to take down a charmed bm/barb/seeker. In those cases, it's about preventing that OP person from moving. In the case of a bm/barb, that's great : wack away and get some points. In the case of a puri caster, it's not so great : have a cleric sleep or a bm stun, but don't attack and get points.

It's obvious that a measure against stunlocks is goint to break stunlocks. Wether it's really justified, really depends on what, who and where. When really specifically looking at the NW issues, is it really an issue ? Wether it's the "1 OP caster can finish a group of lower geared faster then an OP other class if that group has no coordination" or the "Casters run to fast when attacked while carrying the flag" part, I really don't find that worth nerfing only the puri proc. Barbs, sins, archers and bms that can keep up an anti-stun 95% of the traject with the flag while being as fast is just as much off an issue. When I see spefic individuals of those classes, I actually spend a whole battle near the capture point, because that is the only place I can succesfully immobilize them and kill them (since they are to fast to land more then 1~2 skills).

I agree, that's why I said if that there are many, many other factors to consider on whether or not it deserves a nerf. And I refuse to get into those, I'm not even arguing that it should be nerfed. I haven't given an opinion on it one way or another. But the caster doesn't even have to do anything to get out of a lock, which destroys any sense of coordination other people can muster. All the more broken when the best chance of survival is everyone trying to lock the opponent down instead of killing them. I've been battles that did this successfully against other OP classes, never once a puri-proc caster. I've seen it attempted, only for that person to get the proc activated. That's telling. It's already hella easy for them to win anyway, but at least there is more of a chance when it's a r999 melee vs a caster in those 20v1.

trands

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I agree, that's why I said if that there are many, many other factors to consider on whether or not it deserves a nerf. And I refuse to get into those, I'm not even arguing that it should be nerfed. I haven't given an opinion on it one way or another. But the caster doesn't even have to do anything to get out of a lock, which destroys any sense of coordination other people can muster. All the more broken when the best chance of survival is everyone trying to lock the opponent down instead of killing them. I've been battles that did this successfully against other OP classes, never once a puri-proc caster. I've seen it attempted, only for that person to get the proc activated. That's telling. It's already hella easy for them to win anyway, but at least there is more of a chance when it's a r999 melee vs a caster in those 20v1.

Honestly, I don't see how you would win vs the r999 melee in those same situations. It would be impossible for those groups to bring down the hp of those melees fast enough (r999 +10~12 is most probably charmed). And well, casters have puri while having no own anti-stun. Any melee should be able to slip an instant anti-stun between those locks, especially with a genies help. Like Adroit, I see that problem more in difference of gear level then really weapon proc related.

For good order, there are groups of well coordinated lower geared. While they are less frequent, I've encountered a few squads that have a cleric+bm combo effectively pin me down while some 1shot barb does the flag 2x. When being alone, that really sucks b:laugh No matter what gear, there's not much that can be done against a sneaky cleric coming from above b:surrender Remove wings from winged elf clerics during NW ! b:angry

Seriously, I wouldn't mind if they tweak the proc a bit in order to balance it more with other classes. Taking off the speed buff part, only purify movement debuffs, have some cd on the proc, ... Or a major overhaul concerning all classes and skills (if it ever were to happen). But the majority of the arguments here are quite ridiculous when seeing which classes it comes from. Complaining casters are to fast or that they can kill unorganised undergeared groups more efficiently ... b:laugh

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are just too biased to even be part of this discussion.
You spout the word noob as if it's the only word you know, to which I'm starting to get the feeling you consider everyone that is geared lessed than yourself to be one.

If you got locked by just a sin and you couldn't kill it, then you are the one doing something wrong.

The problem lies within what you're saying yourself, you can only lock an OP caster, if you even try as much as to kill it the proc is bound to trigger and you're pretty much screwed because lol catch me if you can.

Apart from that, this is what people get for whining constantly about nerfing APS and anything else from other classes, now it became a non-factor because it's pointless to APS in PvP.
Now people return the favour and complain about someone elses advantage and everyone is all like "BUT MUH BALANCE DO NOT TOUCH".

It's a broken proc to no ends on end gear.

(Do notice that OP caster here is the important part, because some caster with just the weapon and some crappy refines are pretty much still 1-2 shots).

I am only going to comment on the last bit, since I agree witht the rest of your post.

It's not that it isnt true, I just wanted to add this, if a caster just decides to refine/upgarde the weapon, they will still be hard to take down if all the opponents have just as crappy refines on their gear. Sure they wont be overpowered, and the purfiy proc will definitely have less of a chance of procing, but still they would definitely be quite the threat with the weapon refined to +10-12.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

How many people do I know that can stop strangers from messing up a stun lock? Not sure, I know it's been done against me though (more than once I might add)

You can get chi with marrows, pdef buff, master li (if you are sage), genie, apoth, or from a veno passing sparks to you. Besides, you can hold someone in place quite a long time before you run out of chi.. in a 13v1 you could have a second person come over so you take turns locking and can build chi in between.

Proc can happen from some skills, but the proc chance is actually fairly low (generally estimated at between 5-8%).. so if you were to hit them maybe once every 5-10 seconds.. the proc is unlikely to happen even once a minute, and when it does happen.. you have smack or blade hurl to continue making them useless until the movement thingy goes away and you can continue the lock. Stun locks are never perfect anyway, what if you are trying to lock down an archer and you miss on one of your skills? Same thing really.

So I'm curious, would you be making these same arguments if you were a 3x bm trying to stop a r9 barb? Even if I were to concede there was nothing you could do (which in our scenario there certainly is stuff you can do).. it is irrelevant. Nobody expects a 3x bm to have any effect on a r9 barb.. and nobody complains that the 3x has nothing to do about it.. the expected response to a 3x whining about that is to level up/gear up and then you'll be able to have an impact. I keep repeating this same point and nobody has acknowledged it, I think this same kind of attitude should be applied to purify proc.. if you have less than r9rr, you can't expect to be able to compete (even though there are things you can do to **** them off).

Anyway I'm heading to bed, I feel like I'm just going in circles now.

I realize my posts have been a bit difficult for others to read, but really I did kind of agree with you about the 3x people they should indeed level up, and gear up better. What I don't agree with you about is how overpowered you make r93r to be out, though yes there is a power difference that is undeniable, but still, as I pointed out in my last post... the difference between first cast r9 and final cast of it, isn't so great that they do not have the chance to actually beat said r93r. (This goes against what you were saying earlier, about the newer gear vastly outperforming the older ones. In a sense yes it does, but at the same time it doesn't. Yes there is other factors then just the gears but still. Some people are stuck with their r9 until they farm nw enough to xfer everything over, sockets/gems/refines as well as get the needed raps/cannies, medal of glory, etc to make the r93r.) A lot of people actually make do with what they got, until they can farm what they want from the game.... you might even be able to say nw has made it easier to obtain r9/r93r without charging a single dollar to the game. (I realize you never said otherwise, but still you do seem to be overlooking all this.) In this scenario you are right the purify proc definitely has its weakness, the r93r will succumb to the r9's far faster than they would against a full team of g16 +12 all gears, but still as others and myself have pointed out, casters with teh purify proc could just as easily choose to invoke the flight part of their brain, and thanks to and if the purify proc happens... that is much easier for them to do, almost regardless of what gears their opponents have. (The FLIGHT part, not the fighting part, sure I am sure you would still die to other r93r's but there is still that option... running, apos, genies, and their proc could indeed allow 1 r93r to considerably outperform 2-3 r93r, though yes the circumstances have to be exactly right, you could still run, quite easily too.)

How many r9+10 all gears, josd do you think it would take to kill a r93r? I remember back before nw came out a lot of people were in awe at how much farming/coin it would take to obtain full r93r, but now... its definitely much easier to obtain thanks to nw.

One more thing, keeping chi up to stun lock others on a bm isn't as easy as you make it sound, yes there is indeed everything you listed, but they as venus pointed out are dangerous and somewhat impractical. Each of those things you listed has a serious side effect in keeping a bms chi up. Especially after they die, each has to recharge/apo will likely be on cooldown, we all get 1.5 sparks after you spawn from a death, and while it will allow for a few stuns, it quite simply wont be enough to keep anyone trully stunlocked alone, and if your not charmed, you'll likely need to use other methods to restore you hp first and then rush in, and the option I am talking about leaves you nearly chiless, the marrows, aura of golden bell etc, wouldn't restore chi fast enough, and your genie... unless its a haxed one you wont have a chance to use that either, especially if casters... anyone really sees you just respawned/are still low on health.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

trands wrote: »

Honestly, I don't see how you would win vs the r999 melee in those same situations. It would be impossible for those groups to bring down the hp of those melees fast enough (r999 +10~12 is most probably charmed). And well, casters have puri while having no own anti-stun. Any melee should be able to slip an instant anti-stun between those locks, especially with a genies help. Like Adroit, I see that problem more in difference of gear level then really weapon proc related.

For good order, there are groups of well coordinated lower geared. While they are less frequent, I've encountered a few squads that have a cleric+bm combo effectively pin me down while some 1shot barb does the flag 2x. When being alone, that really sucks b:laugh No matter what gear, there's not much that can be done against a sneaky cleric coming from above b:surrender Remove wings from winged elf clerics during NW ! b:angry

Seriously, I wouldn't mind if they tweak the proc a bit in order to balance it more with other classes. Taking off the speed buff part, only purify movement debuffs, have some cd on the proc, ... Or a major overhaul concerning all classes and skills (if it ever were to happen). But the majority of the arguments here are quite ridiculous when seeing which classes it comes from. Complaining casters are to fast or that they can kill unorganised undergeared groups more efficiently ... b:laugh

On the contrary about the first bit, there really is quite a few, and numerous ways of making any classes built in skills quite useless when your stunlocking/pwning the snot out of them, or destorying a bms ability to stunlock long before they get near you. (Mo zun Taunt, Chi Siphon, or a veno with chi burn, (granted that is harder to come by, its still a haxed skill they have, I think I am even missing a few, but still it wouldnt be too far fetched to keep that someone chiless with the right g16's on the r93r melee) All anyone on the side of '20 g16 vs the 1 r93r melee' would have to do is watch, and know each of the animations, and time either a chi siphon or mo zun taunt to prevent them from running away for a minute period. (The only r93r that you might have to be worried about doing this is a bm, as they are the only melee class with a built in, and viable anti stun. Barbs do indeed have violent triumph but its human form only and if a barb goes into that form they are far more likely to die regardless of gear difference. The damage from several g16 +10 caster adds up quite fast, even if the r93r melee is charmed they likely wont have a chance to run away, depending on how well your opponents know your weaknesses, and turn that weakness into something that absolutely works in their favor. Like for barbs they have to be in human form to use their anti stun, bms all you have to do is keep watch on the animations to keep their chi away from them, and well seekers... their built in SAGE anti stun is a joke... 4 seconds... they so aren't going to be going far.)

Yet if your a r93r caster with the purify skill... well just look at what we all have been discussing/debating... its far easier for them to run away since their skill relies on no chi, can't be prevented unless you happen to have a rare bm to remove the weapon BEFORE it procs, I believe there were a few other ways to possibly stop a caster with the purify skill, but I can't recall them atm, and I do not want to go through the pages trying to figure out what else there is that can put a stop to it.


Either way I do realize you said that you wouldnt mind if the edited it to balance it out more, and in that sense I absolutely agree with you. However I still don't think it should remove debuffs, (like hf, amp, gs, devour etc.) that too just makes caster classes really hard to kill unless you gear rivals theirs to quite an extent.

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am only going to comment on the last bit, since I agree witht the rest of your post.

It's not that it isnt true, I just wanted to add this, if a caster just decides to refine/upgarde the weapon, they will still be hard to take down if all the opponents have just as crappy refines on their gear. Sure they wont be overpowered, and the purfiy proc will definitely have less of a chance of procing, but still they would definitely be quite the threat with the weapon refined to +10-12.

I don't think you understand that having a +12 purify weapon with +5 on the rest of your gear is not going to get you anywhere. You keep on saying that casters can get away with a high refined weapon and lower refined armor, it's simply not true. If people see you with the R93 weapon they are going to focus fire you, and that +5 armor is going to do ***** all.

This is the reason why I facepalm when I see casters with R9R weapon and +5 first cast rank 9 armor. That weapon is not going to save them if they do not have the HP/DEF to soak up some damage.