...So why DOESN'T bramble work in PK?

Longknife - Harshlands · January 2013

It works in TW.
It works in NW.
The only place it doesn't work is PK. It seems kinda pointless to discourage 5aps melee use in the two biggest instances of PWI, but then to allow it in PK. It's not like sins and BMs absolutely cannot fight without APS either.

Triggering bramble for PK as well would do worlds to revive open PK while also giving sins a chance to practice vs. bramble and learn their damned class for NW and TW instead of just herpderping random targets in Nation War before dying immediately. No joke, I've had a NW scenario where I had four sins on me and all four proceeded to kill themselves on bramble.

So why not turn bramble on? The only logical explanation I can give is that obviously there's always kiddos who'll CS up a class like sin if it makes them quasi-godlike in PK, but I think I speak for most servers when I say PK has dramatically died down since Nation War's release; most people are getting their PVP fix on the weekend so PK isn't really neccesary. Thus, making a sin is ALREADY less appealing at this point. I know several sins who I can go toe-to-toe with in PK but during NW they just absolutely will NOT go near me because bramble + Psy reflect is too much. I can't imagine these people will continue to play sin in NW as sin is a sort of unappealing NW option for that exact reason. Thus the sin population is likely to die down anyway, and such an official change like bramble working MIGHT encourage people who used to avoid PK because of sins anyways to go out and give it a try, thus increasing the server activity as a whole, thus increasing customer satisfaction and thus increasing sales because you KNOW competition promotes cash shopping via rage-purchases. (10mil says Lost City and Harshlands cash shop the hardest)

Long story short? Everybody wins, from the players to the community to PWI itself. 'Cept sins, and **** them because nobody cares about sins.

Inb4 an overwhelming amount of people vote yes on the poll.

Allisandre - Sanctuary · January 2013

Back in the day it was believed to be too OP. (Clueless people made a LOT of complaints back then, and half the time, got what they wanted.)

Personally, I fell every skill function and debuff available in PvE, should work exactly the same in every aspect of PvP. Things like the Seeker debuffs don't even work in TW/NW. Can you imagine how fast we could drop some real tank barbs in TW/NW/PvP if we could stack all the debuffs on them?

Imagine being on say, a Wiz or Psy, avoiding a stunlock from a BM or Sin, using a pushback skill, sealing/stunning them, and then annihilating them.

But then you'll have the baby APS noobs QQing like crazy, and right now there's more of them than there are of us because it doesn't require any thought to Spark/Stun/Auto-attack.

Personally, allowing all skills to function normally in PvP would do a lot to bring balance back to the game.

Haila - Sanctuary · January 2013

Let a sin make another poll of turning bramble off in NW / TW b:nosebleed

TempleSlave - Lost City · January 2013

Sure, but make it reflect magic damage too.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · January 2013

You know, people keep saying that like it'd be a disaster for wizards and so on - but they have arcane armour and so wouldn't take a huge amount of damage - they'd be at least as effective at reducing it as the veno.

Just like barbs don't bramble themselves to death too quickly.

It's really just silly sins discovering that they have bought armour made out of tissue paper.

Open-world PK (on PVP servers) seems to be the place it's most needed to me. But as other people said; our self-only seems to be the devs answer to that. And it being pretty simple to just throw bramble on absolutely everyone.. well, it does need some care balancing it.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide · January 2013

b:cute lets all veno vote on this poll

Eoria - Harshlands · January 2013

brb making demon veno buff bot.

Knownase - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Make bramble reflect both phy and mag damage, should make PvP a lot more........actually do for it for the forum QQ.

Castgurl - Raging Tide · January 2013

Lol. That is all.

Veneir - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Unnerf bramble, psys have a way OP version they can use in open world anyway..
Unnerf swimming mastery, there was no reason to get rid of it and venos are really the only class that have a real purpose to go into the one only underwater instance...
Geez why were venos of all classes the only ones with some of their basic skills taken away in the world when it was unnessesary...

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

But then you'll have the baby APS noobs QQing like crazy, and right now there's more of them than there are of us because it doesn't require any thought to Spark/Stun/Auto-attack.

Good, then maybe they'll actually think

< This game is supposed to have a wide arrange of skills and whatnot for PvP purpose, not only auto-attack..
*logic: auto-attackers-only-and-nothing-else QQing=you're doing something right

< xD.*

Xainou - Sanctuary · January 2013

Psychic reflects work too, and are way more OP with enough soulforce. Not like I PK but I don't see why bramble doesn't work.

fuzzywuzz · January 2013

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Triggering bramble for PK as well would do worlds to revive open PK while also giving sins a chance to practice vs. bramble and learn their damned class for NW and TW instead of just herpderping random

Really? Bramble is going to "help revive" open PK? The panda is quite surprised by Longknife's post, it almost reads like a thinly veiled rant about sins in pk instead of having much to do with bramble.

As to the idea that people avoid open PK simply because there are too many sins around.... With the advent of such things as 3rdR9 (because that +12 1stR9 had nothing to do with scaring people away from open PK) Fuzzy wonders what incentive anyone has at all for even considering PK. Bramble or no, sin or no, the vast majority of the player base are no where near the minority who have achieved the pinacle of available gear and as such have no motivation at all to attempt a fight against such people.

The panda believes sins and bramble and such things have nothing to do with lack of open pk. It is the the gulf that exists between sharded and refined "true" end-game gear and the gear which is available to the "casual" player.

Longknife - Harshlands · January 2013

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

As to the idea that people avoid open PK simply because there are too many sins around....

Do you and I live on different planets, because on mine I have a giant list of people who refuse to PK due to sins. :U

Dunno why you think that's so farfetched or like this is some wild new discovery.

I'm arguing that PK is dead lately, Nation War is the culprit. While it's not a bad thing that Nation war is here, it'd be nice to keep the community active in PK since otherwise PVP is just on weekends. Since sins are an age-old complaint and sins are now required to deal with bramble in every instance that matters now ANYWAYS, why not do as I suggested?

It would do exactly what I suggested, would it not?

And your argument is nothing but an ultimatums. Arguing ultimatums never gets anything done. I'm suggesting doing this would encourage a more active PK community, you're arguing NO ONE WILL PK EVER because some people have r9rr, so only they will PK....but that doesn't change the legitimacy of my point. Questioning the authenticity of your claim aside (cause wtf I'm not r9rr and I'm average refined and I PK), my point is that more people would PK actively if sins were gone and that it's of little loss since any good sin is basically expected to be able to cope with the skill ANYWAYS if they wish to partake in any form of PVP that offers rewards.

It's not like sins would be incapable of PKing with bramble working. Anyone even remotely experienced with PVP can tell you sins have MOOOOOOOOOORE than enough to get kills with ease so as to not be 5aps dependent. To be honest, sins could walk away from this relatively unscathed whereas BMs would be the ones who might struggle with the 1v1 battles afterwards. But again, I argue that's sort of frivilous since BMs are already expected to cope with bramble etc for NW and TW, so allowing them to herpderp in PK doesn't really do much of anything.

Redan - Lost City · January 2013

To everyone saying "Un-Nerf Bramble" "They never should have nerfed it" and "Back in the day it was nerfed because people thought it was OP"

BRAMBLE NEVER EVER EVER WORKED

IN OPEN WORLD PVP

Now that I have gotten that out of the way. I kind of don't care but if they do that, then they need to make the ton of Genie skills that only work in TW and etc work in open world pvp to balance it out. Otherwise, No.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Redan - Lost City wrote: »

To everyone saying "Un-Nerf Bramble" "They never should have nerfed it" and "Back in the day it was nerfed because people thought it was OP"

BRAMBLE NEVER EVER EVER WORKED

IN OPEN WORLD PVP

Now that I have gotten that out of the way. I kind of don't care but if they do that, then they need to make the ton of Genie skills that only work in TW and etc work in open world pvp to balance it out. Otherwise, No.

it did.

what genie skills are you talking about?

WenSon - Harshlands · January 2013

first i want to say its unlikely to happen, pwi rarely listns to her community, since they cant do changes on their own

2nd

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Thus, making a sin is ALREADY less appealing at this point. I know several sins who I can go toe-to-toe with in PK but during NW they just absolutely will NOT go near me because bramble + Psy reflect is too much. I can't imagine these people will continue to play sin in NW as sin is a sort of unappealing NW option for that exact reason. Thus the sin population is likely to die down anyway,

actually u just gave an argument for why not to make this chage... u wanna give the deathblow to an already dieing class ?
acutally i dont call this game balance

**** easy mode chars, especially psy but also wizzies and so on dont need this change
why u want to be more op with this (and yes i say it again) easy mode class

u say sins that usually attack u wont attack u with this buff... ROFL... need more help... how about 1 second cooldown for charmticks for psy, 50 second IronGuards for psys...hmm...what else could our precious longknife need to feel strong in pvp

bramble and psy reflect combined is just to strong (actually psy reflect on its own is already very strong)... this stuff on a 40k hp barb is ridicolous

actually the question should be

"It doesnt work in pk...so why does it in tw/nw" Disable it from this

i can understand what u wish urself for ur class... but actually i think its not balanced

XxRagzxx - Sanctuary · January 2013

Bramble:
Cast a bramble shield of protection on a friendly target. Returns
15% of melee damage to attackers. Lasts 10 minutes.

The damage reflection effect doesn't affect players in most cases.

Either PWI nerfed this skill at the beginning, or it was never meant to actually work in open map pk. I personally think they should add it to the open map. Knockbacks need to actually work in PvP also. Yea its op, but like people said, would bring some balance back. Why is it that the only class that has a knockback is a new class? I personally think they screwed the coding up on mystics to make it work on pk and don't know how to turn it off.

I'm wondering if they even know the proper coding to make other knockbacks work for PvP.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Sins really are as much of a factor in people avoiding open world PK as is the power gap in between gear tiers. It is very naive to claim otherwise, it's a very different proposition to accept you may get ganked out of stealth in a 2 hour event, than to extend this to open world PvP. Sin is a broken OP class, we do tend to often miss this point because of the horrid PvP performance of those built as PvE farmers, but Sins going in with full resources (apo/genie off CD, full chi) and who know how to play their class have got the advantage of not just surprise but the game's inherent poor twitch responsiveness, and should at the very least be able to survive the encounter through Deaden Nerves and Shadow Escape. Stealth was simply not given cost efficient counters in open world PvP and I suspect this is very much for the same reason Bramble got nerfed in the first place.

PW caters to P2Win griefers and bullies. It really is as simple as that, these are the people who will pay the sticker price for R9 rather than spend a couple of years farming it... Bramble evens things out a bit, those claiming it is itself OP apparently ignore there are now plenty of ways for melees to deal with it and that its very short duration makes it a non issue outside of ganking squad scenarios. Granted, this is now the prevalent form of open world PK, other than stealth ganking, but then that really isn't the point of, now dead, open world PvP. That they took things far enough to mess with veno's Bramble Hood (which really was a rotten, unfair thing to do) just shows the company's commitment to exploit the emotionally stunted and mentally challenged part of the player base that mistakes overkill advantage with skill. Just log in on Sanct early evenings to read the latest instalment in Kirby's WC love affair with Raul and it should be readily apparent why most of us avoid open world PvP.

MiniST - Sanctuary · January 2013

bramble never worked in this version. It was nerfed when people complained about it on the chinese version. And all of this was years before sins came out.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Thus the sin population is likely to die down

We cannot have that happen. Without sins my nation war kill/points is going to get cut in half.

Longknife - Harshlands · January 2013

WenSon - Harshlands wrote: »

actually u just gave an argument for why not to make this chage... u wanna give the deathblow to an already dieing class ?
acutally i dont call this game balance

**** easy mode chars, especially psy but also wizzies and so on dont need this change
why u want to be more op with this (and yes i say it again) easy mode class

u say sins that usually attack u wont attack u with this buff... ROFL... need more help... how about 1 second cooldown for charmticks for psy, 50 second IronGuards for psys...hmm...what else could our precious longknife need to feel strong in pvp

So much win. And I love how the no option is exclusively herpderp BMs and sins.

And no, my point is that PK is basically prepping them for failure. As I said, I've literally had four sins on me during a NW and all four have killed themselves off bramble/SoV. Why? Because they're accustomed to PK. They're accustomed to being able to herpderp to victory so they just kill themselves the moment bramble works.

And no, it's not killing the class. Ever fought a competent veno in 1v1? I have, and I have to say it's pathetic how much potential the class has compared to the IQ of the average veno that just goes "HUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRR NIX + PARASITIC NOVA HUUUUUUURRRRRRR."
It's the exact same principle here. Sins are still incredibly, INCREDIBLY capable without their herpderp, but do they dare attempt to kill me (or anyone else) without it? No, they just avoid the fight entirely and go for the people without bramble. Why? Because they're accustomed to easy mode. I say kill the easy mode entirely so that PK can flourish and the actually GOOD sins and BMs can prevail while the herpderp ones die out. Trust me, if the same could be done for Psys by getting rid of all the +12 cashshopper kiddos who are only worth a damned thanks to 30% chance of silence? I'd be all for it. Hell if you know a solution let me know and I'll support it.

But on this subject matter, I fail to see why bramble should remain inactive for PK. The only reason nameable is "so sins can herpderp in PK," which seems frivilous given that that's the one scenario where can do that and it ends up hurting them when the real profitable PVP comes into play. I mean that'd be the equivalent to if Soul of Silence, Vengeance, Stunning, Retal and Soulburn did NOT work in PK and suddenly did in Nation War and TW. You know what the result would be? Psys dominating both because no one would understand how the hell Psys work. And likewise, sins are a ****ing joke in Nation war, not because the class itself is actually ****, but because the people playing it are ignorant as to how to fight an opponent with bramble. They have no clue how. They might get a clue if they can practice vs. one in PK.

All I'm saying is that PK is essentially exhibition mode. PK is your chance to practice PVPing and learn the ins and outs without having to wait for the weekly events. Since every other PVP-related instance has bramble working, why not let it work in PK too?

And while I'm at it, this goes for Demon roar aswell. Just remembered my squad's flag barb used that last sunday and immediately got several sin kills aswell.

gyroki · January 2013

Only if it also reflects mag and is NOT purgeable :PP
I'd say anyway that there should exist anti-purge buffs. Close range fighters like barbs would deserve them.

Btw, open-world pvp+rpk was always very rare, at least on my server, on lost city server (I'm here since server start). Everything else is a myth which some ppl like to spread in forum just to look cool and superior. There are/were always just about 50-120ppl arround the clock which did pvp constantly. The core are maybe just arround 20-30ppl, the others change from time to time.

3-4 years ago there was abit rpk at hidden orchid, but not permanently. Just maybe every 2-3 days for 1h. 2-3 years ago lost city ppl started to simulate the behavior of pve serves and did pvp at always same locations, at west gate and silver pool. Open-world rpk became extinct at this time, with introduction of nice bh rewards the majority of ppl just logged to get bh100s done. And with introduction of cheap hypers obtainable with tokens ppl had no reason to risk dropping stuff while lvling with quests. They just lvld up in frost - faster and without getting disturbed.

There are many reasons why ppl like nw but don't like rpk.

1st: almost 100% of RPKers spent at least 10h per day in game. While other ppl have to work, they are living off welfare systems. Ppl which work don't want to get disturbed while they try to get their stuff done in game. They don't have alot of time to play anyway. Many asked for buffs in archo before they start to play and hated it to lose them after dieing.

2nd: RPKers are prepared, they have charms, safty-lock on, dolls, pots. While those which are doing quests or are farming mats are unprepeared. When they fight back and become pink, they can drop upon death alot of stuff which is equippend or which is in inventory. --> This fighting system is lame and unfair from very beginning.

3rd: RPKers attack most of the time ppl which are worse geared or have way lower lvls. They are frustrated because they failed in rl and try to compensate that (just look at thousands of complaints about nix-venos in forum before they finally nerfed them - it was about time).

4th: when your ping is bad you are dead before you see 1st hit on screen. In pwi you can die just too fast when someone attacks you. In instances like nw or cube you have a way better ping.

5th: finally its all about coins: in open-world pk you risk and waste coins, in nw you earn supply tokens = coins.

IMO instead of changing any skill they should make training instances. E.g. you should be able to enter all instances like nw or tw, even when there is no event/war. Instances where you can't drop anything. There ppl could train pvp as much as they want. Make them available for factions with guild base, so it makes finally sense to have one..

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Bramble should stay as it is, open PK is dead on PVE servers anyway so it would only affect PVP servers and make it next to nothing worthless of ones own time. If anyone quotes me relating to "Your a sin, of course you'd hate this idea", then your an ignorant idiot to see what I'm saying.

And If I remember reading it right, Psy's SoV only reflects damage to 1 person at a time, so it's not OP. Bramble is as it reflects to everyone at the same time. Then if this was done, changed to magic reflect, but with 1 person at a time, all venos would rage and QQ because 1 person will die to bramble while others get in free bramble-free hits. You can't be OP without balance.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · January 2013

gyroki wrote: »

3rd: RPKers attack most of the time ppl which are worse geared or have way lower lvls. They are frustrated because they failed in rl and try to compensate that (just look at thousands of complaints about nix-venos in forum before they finally nerfed them - it was about time).

Just how was nix nerfed...

gyroki wrote: »

4th: when your ping is bad you are dead before you see 1st hit on screen. In pwi you can die just too fast when someone attacks you. In instances like nw or cube you have a way better ping.

LOL

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

gyroki wrote: »

I'd say anyway that there should exist anti-purge buffs. Close range fighters like barbs would deserve them.

b:sweat You've got to be kidding. Have you ever tried fighting a Barb without using purge as Veno?

Btw, open-world pvp+rpk was always very rare

b:lipcurl Yes and no... I'll grant this was never something that engaged a majority of a server's players but activity levels have certainly dropped down. There just isn't as much interest as it used to be and a lot of it may be that while once there were plenty of players that felt they could access this at some point, now the mayority realizes this is not just of their reach, but that there wouldn't be much of a point to it. And seriously man, I hate going against old school but "I'm on a PvP server" no longer buys you any cred. I think most people have tried it by now and we all realize at this point there's no actual skills to be honed in this. PvP is a lot like running PvE instances, you just have to drill yourself into doing it right.

almost 100% of RPKers spent at least 10h per day in game.

This fighting system is lame and unfair from very beginning.

RPKers attack most of the time ppl which are worse geared or have way lower lvls. They are frustrated because they failed in rl and try to compensate that

+10 I couldn't have said it better myself. b:victory

While obviously I do disagree with you on some views, I think overall you make good, compelling points. I do think open world PK should be the more competitive form of PvP, it just isn't because of a lack of incentives (no profit and there really isn't that much for endgame players to do in the open world anyway) while consequences have become all too easy to avoid.

skaitavia · January 2013

I agree with Longknife about sins still being capable with their target brambled, but there is a limit.

When facing a full r9r2 fully buffed sin that has pretty high defenses (upgraded r9 ring as well) and jades, even though I was fully buffed and full r9r2'd, his bramble hit me for 6.7k for a single Tackling Slash, and again, another 6k with a throatcut.

Bramble is just wrong when it's on a LA class, as r9r2 ones have a 65+% crit rate, which more or less makes every bramble reflect crit.

I think it's fine as it is, and we just have to let those APS sins learn the hard way.

jjj1234 · January 2013

Hey op, aka kingthis, aka queenbii, remember when you stole all of rad's charms out of their bank and then never got in trouble? funny stuff, mebe drakon will put as much trust in you, and you can be "a thieving dragon"

PsychicTuna - Harshlands · January 2013

jjj1234 wrote: »

Hey op, aka kingthis, aka queenbii, remember when you stole all of rad's charms out of their bank and then never got in trouble? funny stuff, mebe drakon will put as much trust in you, and you can be "a thieving dragon"

Wrong thread?

Longknife - Harshlands · January 2013

Skaitavia wrote: »

I agree with Longknife about sins still being capable with their target brambled, but there is a limit.

When facing a full r9r2 fully buffed sin that has pretty high defenses (upgraded r9 ring as well) and jades, even though I was fully buffed and full r9r2'd, his bramble hit me for 6.7k for a single Tackling Slash, and again, another 6k with a throatcut.

Bramble is just wrong when it's on a LA class, as r9r2 ones have a 65+% crit rate, which more or less makes every bramble reflect crit.

I think it's fine as it is, and we just have to let those APS sins learn the hard way.

Or as an alternative, they could tweak it to reflect melee but not to reflect physical skills. That would act as a quasi-nerf for 5aps. I mean the nerf is effectively already in place since 5aps is bleh for every PVP event that matters; if anything it'd actually be a buff for BMs and Sins in the long-run if bramble DIDN'T reflect for skills BUT started working in world PVP.

But yeah, I just think it's little consolation if it doesn't work in PK when, in every PVP event that matters (AKA money of some form of recognition is at stake), it does work and thus sins and BMs often friggin' kill themselves in Nation war because they're inexperienced with it.

MythTiger - Harshlands · January 2013

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

hurrr durrr bla bla bla bla stuff herp derp

Longie, have u ever stopped to consider sinnys or other melees don't get close to you cause you stink like a rotten fishy ? b:cute

Longknife - Harshlands · January 2013

MythTiger - Harshlands wrote: »

Longie, have u ever stopped to consider sinnys or other melees don't get close to you cause you stink like a rotten fishy ? b:cute

But they do.
And then they die cause they dunno how2bramble.

I'm only being considerate here... b:sad

...So why DOESN'T bramble work in PK?

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