...So why DOESN'T bramble work in PK?

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

First of all, I no longer play APS in PvP. I am offering my views as a DPH assassin.

Compared to soul of vengeance, the damage reflected from Bramble largely outshines the damage done by soul of vengeance. In addition, sov can only be casted on a single person and costs mana unless it is sage (Not too helpful against non-arcane classes), while bramble can be casted on everyone cost free. So I can see why it wasn't enabled in world pk in the first place.

Since Nation Wars is such a huge part of all server's activities now anyway, it wouldn't really make a difference even if we do enable it for pk. However, I do not see a need to enable it in pk. I disagree with your position that enabling bramble will encourage more people to pk and increase server activity. If your gears are good enough where bramble makes a difference, then you do not need bramble against APS sins. If you need bramble against APS sins, then your gears are most likely not good enough for it to make a difference anyway.

Most arcane classes have built in skills to counter APS classes. (Psychic - soul of silence, wizard - arcane defence, veno - Blazing Barrier) Since arcane classes stack physical defence anyway, end game aps really does not hit that hard on arcanes. Besides, all arcanes have purify now which makes aps even more useless. Bramble doesn't counter just aps, it affects all melee classes. If you are at the stage where aps assassins kill you from stealth before you can react, then they will most likely still kill you from stealth before you can react. The only difference is that maybe they will use Ironguard if their armour is +3 or something, but still does not change the fact that you died before you can react.

So in summary, while I do not necessarily see any reason why it should not be enabled, I also do not see any reason why it should be enabled. I believe we'd benefit much more from Devs trying to fix glitches (Random NW dc anyone?) and introducing more interesting content as opposed to trying to enable bramble in world pvp.

Savor - Lost City · January 2013

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

it did.

what genie skills are you talking about?

Alpha Male doesn't work in pvp.

Theres one that reflects up to 100000 magic damage only useable by barbs and bladeamsters I forget what it's called maybe Reflective Aura or something but it only works in duels and the such. I remember on my barb I used reflective aura and took 9k from a BIDS and reflected 18k. :P

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2013

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wrong

I've tested bramble return with AND without Dew Star of Protection and when it's active it reduces the bramble by a pretty big margin. This also inclines me to believe that defense levels also somewhat reduces bramble damage (though maybe not THAT much)

Was the Dew on the melee attacker or on the character with the Bramble? If you attack a character with higher defense than you, you can get reflected for more than you deal. What I mean is, the reflected damage is the damage the melee attacker deals, not the damage the target receives. This is why it deals so much damage, because if the reflected damage is a percentage of the damage your target actually took, Bramble would not be broken at all. I highly doubt someone with Bramble popping Dew would reduce Bramble's damage, but it damn well should.

seitori · January 2013

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

It works in TW.
It works in NW.
The only place it doesn't work is PK. It seems kinda pointless to discourage 5aps melee use in the two biggest instances of PWI, but then to allow it in PK. It's not like sins and BMs absolutely cannot fight without APS either.

Triggering bramble for PK as well would do worlds to revive open PK while also giving sins a chance to practice vs. bramble and learn their damned class for NW and TW instead of just herpderping random targets in Nation War before dying immediately. No joke, I've had a NW scenario where I had four sins on me and all four proceeded to kill themselves on bramble.

So why not turn bramble on? The only logical explanation I can give is that obviously there's always kiddos who'll CS up a class like sin if it makes them quasi-godlike in PK, but I think I speak for most servers when I say PK has dramatically died down since Nation War's release; most people are getting their PVP fix on the weekend so PK isn't really neccesary. Thus, making a sin is ALREADY less appealing at this point. I know several sins who I can go toe-to-toe with in PK but during NW they just absolutely will NOT go near me because bramble + Psy reflect is too much. I can't imagine these people will continue to play sin in NW as sin is a sort of unappealing NW option for that exact reason. Thus the sin population is likely to die down anyway, and such an official change like bramble working MIGHT encourage people who used to avoid PK because of sins anyways to go out and give it a try, thus increasing the server activity as a whole, thus increasing customer satisfaction and thus increasing sales because you KNOW competition promotes cash shopping via rage-purchases. (10mil says Lost City and Harshlands cash shop the hardest)

Long story short? Everybody wins, from the players to the community to PWI itself. 'Cept sins, and **** them because nobody cares about sins.

Inb4 an overwhelming amount of people vote yes on the poll.

b:pleasedIt still suprises me how many other sin users don't ever understand the uses of the Genie {AD skill} against Veno's.......b:chuckle

Its Sad........b:laugh

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · January 2013

seitori wrote: »

b:pleasedIt still suprises me how many other sin users don't ever understand the uses of the Genie {AD skill} against Veno's.......b:chuckle

Its Sad........b:laugh

IF (ig/triple) THEN
WRITE win
ELSE IF (target immune) THEN
WRITE stealth
ELSE
WRITE pot more, u are target now
END IF

Jesusisback - Raging Tide · January 2013

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Was the Dew on the melee attacker or on the character with the Bramble? If you attack a character with higher defense than you, you can get reflected for more than you deal. What I mean is, the reflected damage is the damage the melee attacker deals, not the damage the target receives. This is why it deals so much damage, because if the reflected damage is a percentage of the damage your target actually took, Bramble would not be broken at all. I highly doubt someone with Bramble popping Dew would reduce Bramble's damage, but it damn well should.

Dew was on the melee attacker (me) and it definetly reduced the bramble damage that I took b:surrender

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

First of all, I no longer play APS in PvP. I am offering my views as a DPH assassin.Which of course means you have a vested interest in this.

Compared to soul of vengeance, the damage reflected from Bramble largely outshines the damage done by soul of vengeance.That's a misleading simplification, apart from SoV beneffiting from the user's gear it also reflects magic damage. It doesn't hold true Bramble guard reliably deals more damage than SoV would on any given player or against any given attack.In addition, sov can only be casted on a single personAnd you seem to forget Psys get another 10 minute buff, as well as being able to cast a different one on others. Venos only get Bramble Guard, again you're misleading. and costs mana unless it is sage Which is relatively negligible and would have perhaps been an issue before widespread availability of cheap Yuanxiao.(Not too helpful against non-arcane classes),Given it reflects phys damage it certainly helps against LA. while bramble can be casted on everyone cost free.It does cost 480 mana to cast for sage/demon. So I can see why it wasn't enabled in world pk in the first place.No, you don't, it involved perceived class balance on pre-endgame Chinese servers. Long before 100+ populations, gear power creep, Morai skills and broken TB mechanics such as Soulforce, att/def levels or stealth.

Since Nation Wars is such a huge part of all server's activities now anyway, it wouldn't really make a difference even if we do enable it for pk. Just because open world PvP offers little incentive, it doesn't mean it should be abandoned to Sins.However, I do not see a need to enable it in pk. Yes, as a Sin, you wouldn't.I disagree with your position that enabling bramble will encourage more people to pk and increase server activity. If your gears are good enough where bramble makes a difference, then you do not need bramble against APS sins.PvP does come down to minute damage differences, it is extremely naive to propose these would not make a difference. Also, regardless of how the OP may have phrased the issue, it isn't really about APS but about stealth ganking. If you need bramble against APS sins, then your gears are most likely not good enough for it to make a difference anyway. Taking your oponent down with you does amount to a significant difference.

Most arcane classes have built in skills to counter APS classes. (Psychic - soul of silence, wizard - arcane defence, veno - Blazing Barrier)Which is a Sin friendly gimped reflect. Since arcane classes stack physical defence anyway, end game aps really does not hit that hard on arcanes. That's simply not true and beside, the point of APS is precisely that "not so hard" hits do add up.Besides, all arcanes have purify now which makes aps even more useless. All arcanes have now got access to self-purify? I must have missed that memo. It is pretentious of you to frame arguments considering only high endgame gear.Bramble doesn't counter just aps, it affects all melee classes.Not to the same extents, this is another misleading argument. All other melee classes wear HA and have naturally larger HP pools. Also, they do tend to actually counter Bramble before attacking... If you are at the stage where aps assassins kill you from stealth before you can react, then they will most likely still kill you from stealth before you can react. Not necessarily, just a decent crit rate alone can make a Sin one-shot himself but even that isn't necessary, substantial damage can make a player abort or modify his attack routine which is really all you need in order to get a fighting chance.The only difference is that maybe they will use Ironguard if their armour is +3 or something, but still does not change the fact that you died before you can react.It does, as a 9xer I generally use both a charm and damage reduction on autopot. It generally does buy me enough time to cast Hood on. Again, you oversimplify.

So in summary, while I do not necessarily see any reason why it should not be enabled, I also do not see any reason why it should be enabled. Obviously as a Sin you don't.I believe we'd benefit much more from Devs trying to fix glitches (Random NW dc anyone?) and introducing more interesting content as opposed to trying to enable bramble in world pvp.This is a stock bs response. I seriously doubt the reason bugs are not getting fixed is devs preocupied with working on suggestions made by players in the English language forums... Much less on those that are merely discussions on whether a particular existing feature should be enabled.

b:sweat

Cody_tylor - Sanctuary · January 2013

It is because PK is nothing interesting to the devs? The devs are lazy, and they do not care. I would not care either no matter what skill happens in regular PK for any class. There are duels, PVP events and TW where bramble works (including DT).

QQing veno players ask for too much because they suck so much... they QQ about 5 APS sins/bms that do low damage (they can't really even hurt my 75 barb in PVP and I loathe PVP in MMORPS with a passion)... They have fossilized curse / arcane antinomy which shuts down APS / channeling completely no? On top of that, seal, pet stun and of course 0 p.def/m.def debuff which can make them kill everyone in like 5 seconds. The devs will do nothing for regular PK just do other PVP activities instead.

Venoes are the most OP class there is ingame for PVE and 2nd most OP class following mystics in PVP. Bramble is just one "nerf" in a particular PVP activity.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

This is my reply to MANray_. I find that your responses shows great hatred in the Assassin class. This makes me hard to reply to with a straight face. I also doubt that your argument is not made in some way due to assassin hatred.

Which of course means you have a vested interest in this.

On the contrary, it means i have little interest in this because the damage i deal will by far exceed the damage i take. I don't know why you'd think otherwise

That's a misleading simplification, apart from SoV beneffiting from the user's gear it also reflects magic damage. It doesn't hold true Bramble guard reliably deals more damage than SoV would on any given player or against any given attack.

It doesn't reflect anything. It deals a static damage based on the psychic's soul force regardless of what you attack with. But you just stated that bramble deals more damage, so why is that misleading?

And you seem to forget Psys get another 10 minute buff, as well as being able to cast a different one on others. Venos only get Bramble Guard, again you're misleading.

No i didn't forget soul of silence, but I don't see how that is relevant in this case.

Which is relatively negligible and would have perhaps been an issue before widespread availability of cheap Yuanxiao

Not quite. Back when I used to squad demon psychics in Catapult squad, our cata barbs complained that they couldn't keep up with the MP drain even with MP food and MP charm combined.

Given it reflects phys damage it certainly helps against LA.

I mean the fact that it drains mana is not helpful.

It does cost 480 mana to cast for sage/demon.

Ok, so you argue that MP food makes it neglectible for SoV but then argue that it cost 480 mana for bramble? Are you just picking out words I say out of context or are you trying to develop a point? I think a 480 one time mana use for bramble is relevantly cost free compared to a 10 minute buff that drains mana everytime it activates.

No, you don't, it involved perceived class balance on pre-endgame Chinese servers. Long before 100+ populations, gear power creep, Morai skills and broken TB mechanics such as Soulforce, att/def levels or stealth.

The perceived class balance is the damage reflected from bramble, which i addressed by comparing it to sov.

Just because open world PvP offers little incentive, it doesn't mean it should be abandoned to Sins.

Yes, as a Sin, you wouldn't.

PvP does come down to minute damage differences, it is extremely naive to propose these would not make a difference. Also, regardless of how the OP may have phrased the issue, it isn't really about APS but about stealth ganking.

Taking your oponent down with you does amount to a significant difference.

lol if this was mass pk, then bramble would make a difference. Except, aps sins are useless in mass pk now too. So the only time this would even apply is isolated 1 v 1s. If it was a 1 v 1, it does not make a significant difference other than the fact that you can claim it was a draw and not a loss.

That's simply not true and beside, the point of APS is precisely that "not so hard" hits do add up.

Then you haven't seen defences of end game arcanes. You can reach over 20k pdef self buffed and 80+ def levels

Not to the same extents, this is another misleading argument. All other melee classes wear HA and have naturally larger HP pools. Also, they do tend to actually counter Bramble before attacking...

I just stated it affects all classes, i did not state they are all affected equally.

All arcanes have now got access to self-purify? I must have missed that memo. It is pretentious of you to frame arguments considering only high endgame gear.

Not necessarily, just a decent crit rate alone can make a Sin one-shot himself but even that isn't necessary, substantial damage can make a player abort or modify his attack routine which is really all you need in order to get a fighting chance.

It does, as a 9xer I generally use both a charm and damage reduction on autopot. It generally does buy me enough time to cast Hood on. Again, you oversimplify.

I don't know about you, but sins don't get most of their aps until 100. So against 9x sin the arguement is useless. If you are having a fighting chance, then they are not good geared enough to warrant bramble.

If you get stealth killed easily, then they probably out geared you ALOT. They're not going to 1 shot themselves.

If you can counter well geared assassin, then you are probably third cast or close to it, and once again does not warrant bramble.

From my understanding, the OP is not a 9x. He stated that "I know several sins who I can go toe-to-toe with in PK but during NW they just absolutely will NOT go near me because bramble + Psy reflect is too much." So in the context the OP is talking about, I am speaking of well geared assassins.

This is a stock bs response. I seriously doubt the reason bugs are not getting fixed is devs preocupied with working on suggestions made by players in the English language forums... Much less on those that are merely discussions on whether a particular existing feature should be enabled.

Of course they're not working on suggestions. But if they were, I rather they not work on this suggestion.

From my reading of your replies, you seem to just got stealth killed by better geared sins one too many times. Get end game gears and try fighting those same aps sins, you will see how their strength dwindle. And if you can't afford end game gears, then those aps sins that kill you from stealth most likely will still do it even with bramble, and those who cannot kill you from stealth you can counter equally well without bramble, Sorry.

KingClawX - Lost City · January 2013

ok let see you seem to think bramble is broken but isnt aps also broken why do we need it.

hell we dont need bp we get azy with bp aps is not needed either if we use apropiate skill

yes it take more time but we do not need it so again if ur so against bramble why should we accept aps.

a broken mechanism vs another broken mechanism shoudl say balance.

as a str barb i have hard to kill myself with bramble guard hood ya but gayrd no cos i can control my hits so again if ur so against bramble maybe its time we remove aps to.

ooh and wait let see veno defence is all gone so why not remove assasin all self buff like deaden tidal ooh and stealth cos the only self deffence a veno have in pk is there bramble cos pet gona be ignored 100%

so how woudl assasin feel without his self deffence ofc he can keep his teleport and his all stun zeal bu no spa no stealth no tidal no deaden.

u guys think assasin would qq to if we removed those buffs.....

discus

Iyania - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

IF (ig/triple) THEN
WRITE win
ELSE IF (target immune) THEN
WRITE stealth
ELSE
WRITE pot more, u are target now
END IF

LOL what the heck??? XDD

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This is my reply to MANray_. I find that your responses shows great hatred in the Assassin class. This makes me hard to reply to with a straight face. I also doubt that your argument is not made in some way due to assassin hatred.

It's not hatred, it's contempt for those complaining about Bramble. I actually have some very good friends amongst Sins, they're simply not the dishonest type to make this an issue given they do objectively realize their class advantage. If you don't posses the inteliigence not to suicide on Veno reflect or the ability to get around it you're simply not playing your class right.

On the contrary, it means i have little interest in this. I don't know why you'd think otherwise

Your wall of text might have thrown me off... But let's not waste our time on pleasantries, I meant that claiming a dph based build doesn't mean yours is the point of view of an unbiased third party. You're a Sin. You're currently involved in the debate. You're not objectively neutral man...

It doesn't reflect anything. It deals a static damage based on the psychic's soul force regardless of what you attack with. But you just stated that bramble deals more damage, so why is that misleading?

Soul of Vengeance is triggered by an oponent's attack, it may come as a shock to you but that some of us may sometimes refer to this as a reflect doesn't mean we literally think this is the mechanic involved. Even Bramble Guard does not technically "reflect" damage, you do realize it involves no damage reduction... And I didn't state that Bramble deals higher damage, my point is precissely that this is situational. Highly refined endgame gears would greatly reduce the damage you take from any given attack while increasing your soulforce, and the amount of damage dealt by SoV. Bramble just doesn't scale with gear, but the damage the attacker receives does diminish in proportion. Comprende?

No i didn't forget soul of silence, but I don't see how that is relevant in this case.

The problem is you seem to be stuck in a literal mind set. What I meant was that claiming SoV could only be cast on a single person takes the "reflect" analogy too far, there is certainly an advantage of Psy over Veno in terms of buffs, which is reflected on the relative minor advantages Bramble gets over SoV, but a thorough discussion on the topic would then have to shift to overall class balance... Your argument was disingenous, it's one thing to benchmark Bramble's damage on SoV, quite another to discuss accesory factors in both skills. Should we also compare channeling/casting times?

Not quite. Back when I used to squad demon psychics in Catapult squad, our cata barbs complained that they couldn't keep up with the MP drain even with MP food and MP charm combined.

And you propose a comparison drawn on an extreme example is appropiate? For the overwhelming mayority of scenarios this is a non-issue.

I mean the fact that it drains mana is not helpful.

Yes, but this is not actually relevant to the discussion nor even a significant PvP factor. Yes, Psys are MP hogs but the argument at hand is Veno reflect getting nerfed.

Ok, so you argue that MP food makes it neglectible for SoV but then argue that it cost 480 mana for bramble? Are you just picking out words I say out of context or are you trying to develop a point? I think a 480 one time mana use for bramble is relevantly cost free compared to a 10 minute buff that drains mana everytime it activates.

And if you must insist on continuing to treat every point with the literality of a 12 year old your blank statement was that Bramble Guard is cost free. MP consumption is not the issue here...

The perceived class balance is the damage reflected from bramble, which i addressed by comparing it to sov.

This is disingenous, class balance is not measured on a skill by skill basis. Venos rely much more strongly on their reflects than Psys do on SoV, the nerf affects us in a proportionately larger way than an SoV nerf would affect you.

lol if this was mass pk, then bramble would make a difference. Except, aps sins are useless in mass pk now too. So the only time this would even apply is isolated 1 v 1s. If it was a 1 v 1, it does not make a significant difference other than the fact that you can claim it was a draw and not a loss.

It's not just about bragging rights, PvP is a competitive activity, of course it makes a difference whether you're able to down your oponent. Or do you think people go into PK mode without concerning themselves with how effective they are?

Then you haven't seen defences of end game arcanes. You can easily reach over 20k self buffed.

Once again an extreme example does not make for generalizations. Of course Arcanes get comparatively better phys than LA, but taking this to the extreme that most can just ignore the dps output of aps Sins is just ridiculous.

I just stated it affects all classes, i did not state they are all affected equally.

The issue is whether the degree to which meles classes are affected is significant. Otherwise it is just anecdotical. I made the point HA classes simply do not face the difficulties Sins complain about, which makes your point about all classes being affected a weak argument.

I don't know about you, but sins don't get most of their aps until 100. So against 9x sin the arguement is useless. If you are having a fighting chance, then they are not good geared enough to warrant bramble.

If you get stealth killed easily, then they are probably out geared you ALOT. They're not going to 1 shot themselves.

If you can counter well geared assassin, then you are probably third cast or close to it, and once again does not warrant bramble.

From my understanding, the OP is not a 9x. He stated that "I know several sins who I can go toe-to-toe with in PK but during NW they just absolutely will NOT go near me because bramble + Psy reflect is too much." So in the context the OP is talking about, I am speaking of well geared assassins.

And again with the child like responses... We are discussing skills here, not gear. All things being equal a Veno facing a Sin with same tier gear should obtain similar results... I do get it that your point revolves around APS, which seems strange for a self proclaimed DPH Sin, but APS is not a PvP build and if you're going to nitpick about the OP's particular circumstances I see no profit in discussing fail builds. It may be difficult for you to accept this, but I'm discussing the point in its own right, not on the OP's terms. And this brings us back to your ridiculous proposition that small differences do not matter in PvP. I guess if I thought the same way you do I wouldn't bother using a pet in PvP, but guess what? It does get me kills. And even if it's just 1 out of 10 it still adds up.

Of course they're not working on suggestions. But if they were, I rather they not work on this suggestion.

Yeah, you admit your point is stupid but you'll still make it none the less...

From my reading of your replies, you seem to just got stealth killed by better geared sins one too many times. Get end game gears and try fighting those same aps sins, you will see how their strength dwindle. And if you can't afford end game gears, then those aps sins that kill you from stealth most likely will still do it even with bramble, and those who cannot kill you from stealth you can counter equally well without bramble, Sorry.

b:chuckle Yes, I'll admit I do every once in a while get stealth ganked by Sins, 90% of the time it backfires on them and they get killed by the people on my side, which is a win for me seeing how little of a priority target my veno makes and how often these Sins that do kill me are the ubergeared type. But you've got it all backwards. I owe the sheer stupidity of players in that class much of my PvP success, a good 50% of my NW kills is would be gankers suiciding on my reflect... I think getting my endgame will pretty much make it shooting fish on a barrel... The thing is I do acknowledge that if Sins in general had a clue how to play their class I would not be able to defeat them at all, not with my gears and level range anyway. And they wouldn't die even if I was surrounded by R9rs3... And this is mostly the reason I find it so ridiculous for Sins to complain, when really all they need to do is, literally, learn to play.

Seriously man, if you're planning a response you've got to do better than "if Sin can kill you it doesn't matter"....

Edit; Whoa, I just have to ask, is it just my monitor or is anyone else getting a 3d type effect on this red-blue convo?

Veneir - Dreamweaver · January 2013

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seriously man, if you're planning a response you've got to do better than "if Sin can kill you it doesn't matter"....

Edit; Whoa, I just have to ask, is it just my monitor or is anyone else getting a 3d type effect on this red-blue convo?

Eum looks pretty flat colour to me o.o
Then again, I could never see anything out of those three dimensional glasses except I was looking through a single colour lens dependent on what eye I was looking through...

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

That's a pity, I get this really groovy effect where the blue letters appear as if they were half an inch closer than the red ones.

KingClawX - Lost City · January 2013

idk why they even dare complain i mean stealth tidal deaden all there zeals stun and aps and they are afraid of a silly bramble.

as far as i know bramble dont hit u back and dont work on magic and u can immune pot and aps so what the whole its op.

pvp should not be dominated why aps sin but why skilled players.

in fact aps should be nerfed in pk like do no damage at all and let it root in pve as it was meant to be.

or just give chi in pvp nothing else.

again i have to say veno only defensive skill is bramble how many defenses does sin have

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · January 2013

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

"maybe since melee DDing against a target against whom melee DDing would kill me, i have crappy defensive stats, but can avoid control skills and 1 shots, and i have many control skills, i shouldn't assume the roll of super DD like i did in nirvana, and focus more on controlling targets, and not try to kill a target untill i can see that attacking them will not guarantee my own death"

thought no sin, ever.

Quoting myself to respond to above

asasasasasasasasaasas · January 2013

KingClawX - Lost City wrote: »

idk why they even dare complain i mean stealth tidal deaden all there zeals stun and aps and they are afraid of a silly bramble.

as far as i know bramble dont hit u back and dont work on magic and u can immune pot and aps so what the whole its op.

pvp should not be dominated why aps sin but why skilled players.

in fact aps should be nerfed in pk like do no damage at all and let it root in pve as it was meant to be.

or just give chi in pvp nothing else.

again i have to say veno only defensive skill is bramble how many defenses does sin have

So are you saying that EVERY time a sin want to atack a player with bramble they have to use an IG?
Lol.... you should go and play a little pvp with a sin, bramble hurts.
And dont say "i can control my hits" its not about control, you have more hp CUZ YOU ARE A BARB ur target has less hp that you so if he deals a low dmg on you while you are atacking then the winner its you, but that doesnt happen to sins, if your target have 40% more hp than you, unless you use an inmunity or reduce dmg taken apo/genie skill then you have NO CHANCES even if the enemy its singing TROLOLOLOL while dancing

OoArCsTeRoO - Sanctuary · January 2013

It will make Melee DDs absolutely obsolete against barbs.. Its good as it is, they should work on adding new content without glitches.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

This is my reply to MANray_.

Oh wow, contempt is so much better than hatred, lol. I have stated already that bramble does not affect me as a DPH Assassin. The damage I deal by far exceeds the damage I take unless I get demon ironwooded or something which doesn't happen often with Tidal Protection. I have hit over 13ks for a 1 shot on r9 venos and taking as little as 3k in response, and I'm not even end game. Bramble helps me more than it hurts me because it lets me simply ignore APS sins trying to kill me in NW. However, just because it benefits me, I do not need it. However, you seem to fail to realize that and instead reply with comments that seemingly insults my intelligence. I take personal offense to that.

Therefore, this will probably be my last reply to you. Whether or not you agree with me is up to you, but my position will most likely still stand since you cannot make sound arguments by insulting people's intelligence.

Even Bramble Guard does not technically "reflect" damage, you do realize it involves no damage reduction... And I didn't state that Bramble deals higher damage, my point is precissely that this is situational. Highly refined endgame gears would greatly reduce the damage you take from any given attack while increasing your soulforce, and the amount of damage dealt by SoV. Bramble just doesn't scale with gear, but the damage the attacker receives does diminish in proportion. Comprende?

Highly refined endgame gears reduce the damage taken from both Sov and bramble. However in the end, bramble still outshines the damage dealt by Sov, early game or end game. Sure, soul of silence is more powerful than bramble. But we're talking about reflects, not silences. Does psychics having silence mean that everyone should have reflect? So maybe if all arcanes get a melee reflect that work in world pvp, all melees should get a magic reflect that work in world pvp? But that is not my position. I am able to eliminate either melees or arcanes without the additional help of bramble. Same could be said about other classes. So why do they need it?

This is disingenous, class balance is not measured on a skill by skill basis. Venos rely much more strongly on their reflects than Psys do on SoV, the nerf affects us in a proportionately larger way than an SoV nerf would affect you.

I won't argue that reflects help veno. But again, a psychic's reflect can be casted on one person while veno reflect can be casted on multiple people. Does every single class rely on reflect? I don't think so.

And again with the child like responses... We are discussing skills here, not gear. All things being equal a Veno facing a Sin with same tier gear should obtain similar results... I do get it that your point revolves around APS, which seems strange for a self proclaimed DPH Sin, but APS is not a PvP build and if you're going to nitpick about the OP's particular circumstances I see no profit in discussing fail builds. It may be difficult for you to accept this, but I'm discussing the point in its own right, not on the OP's terms. And this brings us back to your ridiculous proposition that small differences do not matter in PvP. I guess if I thought the same way you do I wouldn't bother using a pet in PvP, but guess what? It does get me kills. And even if it's just 1 out of 10 it still adds up.

But as much as you and I hate to admit, in the end, gears do affect skills, to an extent. I used to use APS in TW. Bramble has only affected me if it was casted on full r9s. Against the regular TT99 and Nirvana, I am able to safely ignore its presence. I do not understand why you would discuss terms in your rights and not the OP's, since afterall, this isn't your thread. To me, I think it is more logical to discuss terms under the OP's circumstances. Why do I talk about end game gears? Because I believe that this game is extremely balanced if, but only if, everyone's gears are equal. Eventually, I would be end game. So I rather look ahead to what I could potentially do, as opposed to what I can already do. Sure, maybe you are not end game yet, or maybe you do not even desire to be end game. Sadly, that is where we differ and we will be speaking on different terms. I have pvped on my assassin since level 7x. I have killed people who can easily kill me if they understood better how assassins worked, or even bothered to use absolute domain. They don't need bramble. All bramble does is make those who are well geared harder to kill. But it will not affect me the least bit if I am fighting someone with weaker or equal gears.

Yes, I'll admit I do every once in a while get stealth ganked by Sins, 90% of the time it backfires on them and they get killed by the people on my side, which is a win for me seeing how little of a priority target my veno makes and how often these Sins that do kill me are the ubergeared type. But you've got it all backwards. I owe the sheer stupidity of players in that class much of my PvP success, a good 50% of my NW kills is would be gankers suiciding on my reflect... I think getting my endgame will pretty much make it shooting fish on a barrel... The thing is I do acknowledge that if Sins in general had a clue how to play their class I would not be able to defeat them at all, not with my gears and level range anyway. And they wouldn't die even if I was surrounded by R9rs3... And this is mostly the reason I find it so ridiculous for Sins to complain, when really all they need to do is, literally, learn to play.

I agree with you that a lot of people does not understand this game to it's full extent. Yet in the end, I believe that if you were to take those people who die to your bramble and face them head on without bramble, you would most likely be able to kill them anyway. I do not believe that you need bramble to kill people. Yes, it helps. Yes, its nice to have. But you don't need it. In fact, you are the only class that have their own built in personal ironguard. Psychics got one with the Morai expansion but they cannot use anti-stun with it, and that limits its potential. So then in the end, if you also don't believe that GMs will actually listen to our suggestion, then why are you bothering to argue with me? Because you desperately believe that venos cannot function unless everyone have bramble? Perhaps its hope that GMs will listen afterall? Maybe you would prefer that GMs listen to your suggestion to enable bramble, but I prefer that my squad would stop DCing in NW so we can help our nation score more points as opposed to getting base locked.

Toomaga - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

IF (ig/triple) THEN
WRITE win
ELSE IF (target immune) THEN
WRITE stealth
ELSE
WRITE pot more, u are target now
END IF

you're missing your closing brackets b:mischievous

KingClawX - Lost City · January 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This is my reply to MANray_.

Oh wow, contempt is so much better than hatred, lol. I have stated already that bramble does not affect me as a DPH Assassin. The damage I deal by far exceeds the damage I take unless I get demon ironwooded or something which doesn't happen often with Tidal Protection. I have hit over 13ks for a 1 shot on r9 venos and taking as little as 3k in response, and I'm not even end game. Bramble helps me more than it hurts me because it lets me simply ignore APS sins trying to kill me in NW. However, just because it benefits me, I do not need it. However, you seem to fail to realize that and instead reply with comments that seemingly insults my intelligence. I take personal offense to that.

Therefore, this will probably be my last reply to you. Whether or not you agree with me is up to you, but my position will most likely still stand since you cannot make sound arguments by insulting people's intelligence.

Even Bramble Guard does not technically "reflect" damage, you do realize it involves no damage reduction... And I didn't state that Bramble deals higher damage, my point is precissely that this is situational. Highly refined endgame gears would greatly reduce the damage you take from any given attack while increasing your soulforce, and the amount of damage dealt by SoV. Bramble just doesn't scale with gear, but the damage the attacker receives does diminish in proportion. Comprende?

Highly refined endgame gears reduce the damage taken from both Sov and bramble. However in the end, bramble still outshines the damage dealt by Sov, early game or end game. Sure, soul of silence is more powerful than bramble. But we're talking about reflects, not silences. Does psychics having silence mean that everyone should have reflect? So maybe if all arcanes get a melee reflect that work in world pvp, all melees should get a magic reflect that work in world pvp? But that is not my position. I am able to eliminate either melees or arcanes without the additional help of bramble. Same could be said about other classes. So why do they need it?

This is disingenous, class balance is not measured on a skill by skill basis. Venos rely much more strongly on their reflects than Psys do on SoV, the nerf affects us in a proportionately larger way than an SoV nerf would affect you.

I won't argue that reflects help veno. But again, a psychic's reflect can be casted on one person while veno reflect can be casted on multiple people. Does every single class rely on reflect? I don't think so.

And again with the child like responses... We are discussing skills here, not gear. All things being equal a Veno facing a Sin with same tier gear should obtain similar results... I do get it that your point revolves around APS, which seems strange for a self proclaimed DPH Sin, but APS is not a PvP build and if you're going to nitpick about the OP's particular circumstances I see no profit in discussing fail builds. It may be difficult for you to accept this, but I'm discussing the point in its own right, not on the OP's terms. And this brings us back to your ridiculous proposition that small differences do not matter in PvP. I guess if I thought the same way you do I wouldn't bother using a pet in PvP, but guess what? It does get me kills. And even if it's just 1 out of 10 it still adds up.

But as much as you and I hate to admit, in the end, gears do affect skills, to an extent. I used to use APS in TW. Bramble has only affected me if it was casted on full r9s. Against the regular TT99 and Nirvana, I am able to safely ignore its presence. I do not understand why you would discuss terms in your rights and not the OP's, since afterall, this isn't your thread. To me, I think it is more logical to discuss terms under the OP's circumstances. Why do I talk about end game gears? Because I believe that this game is extremely balanced if, but only if, everyone's gears are equal. Eventually, I would be end game. So I rather look ahead to what I could potentially do, as opposed to what I can already do. Sure, maybe you are not end game yet, or maybe you do not even desire to be end game. Sadly, that is where we differ and we will be speaking on different terms. I have pvped on my assassin since level 7x. I have killed people who can easily kill me if they understood better how assassins worked, or even bothered to use absolute domain. They don't need bramble. All bramble does is make those who are well geared harder to kill. But it will not affect me the least bit if I am fighting someone with weaker or equal gears.

Yes, I'll admit I do every once in a while get stealth ganked by Sins, 90% of the time it backfires on them and they get killed by the people on my side, which is a win for me seeing how little of a priority target my veno makes and how often these Sins that do kill me are the ubergeared type. But you've got it all backwards. I owe the sheer stupidity of players in that class much of my PvP success, a good 50% of my NW kills is would be gankers suiciding on my reflect... I think getting my endgame will pretty much make it shooting fish on a barrel... The thing is I do acknowledge that if Sins in general had a clue how to play their class I would not be able to defeat them at all, not with my gears and level range anyway. And they wouldn't die even if I was surrounded by R9rs3... And this is mostly the reason I find it so ridiculous for Sins to complain, when really all they need to do is, literally, learn to play.

I agree with you that a lot of people does not understand this game to it's full extent. Yet in the end, I believe that if you were to take those people who die to your bramble and face them head on without bramble, you would most likely be able to kill them anyway. I do not believe that you need bramble to kill people. Yes, it helps. Yes, its nice to have. But you don't need it. In fact, you are the only class that have their own built in personal ironguard. Psychics got one with the Morai expansion but they cannot use anti-stun with it, and that limits its potential. So then in the end, if you also don't believe that GMs will actually listen to our suggestion, then why are you bothering to argue with me? Because you desperately believe that venos cannot function unless everyone have bramble? Perhaps its hope that GMs will listen afterall? Maybe you would prefer that GMs listen to your suggestion to enable bramble, but I prefer that my squad would stop DCing in NW so we can help our nation score more points as opposed to getting base locked.

why do u need stealth tidal deaden i mean its nice and all but do u really need it.
99% of the veno are arcane ur la la have betetr deff or somewhat better survability vs physical arcane if u properly put physical orments on or elemental orments.

again ur talking about a class and asking why they woudl need a reflect when its the only deffence it have and ur own class have so many and wish to compare these two classes.

stealth is 1000% more broken then bramble cos bramble only afact melee while stealth affect everyone

tidal especially sage tidal is so broken not even stuns might work on ur sin

deaden another lexury sin have that now barb have if we remove bar band sin deaden wit hstealth of archer and sin and tidal i bet u complain to cos i bet u feel naked without any deffence.

ppl are right to say ya cos ur a sin cos you don twana face the facts u have lots of deffences u dont really need and dont want veno to have its only deffence work.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

KingClawX - Lost City wrote: »

why do u need stealth tidal deaden i mean its nice and all but do u really need it.
99% of the veno are arcane ur la la have betetr deff or somewhat better survability vs physical arcane if u properly put physical orments on or elemental orments.

again ur talking about a class and asking why they woudl need a reflect when its the only deffence it have and ur own class have so many and wish to compare these two classes.

stealth is 1000% more broken then bramble cos bramble only afact melee while stealth affect everyone

tidal especially sage tidal is so broken not even stuns might work on ur sin

deaden another lexury sin have that now barb have if we remove bar band sin deaden wit hstealth of archer and sin and tidal i bet u complain to cos i bet u feel naked without any deffence.

ppl are right to say ya cos ur a sin cos you don twana face the facts u have lots of deffences u dont really need and dont want veno to have its only deffence work.

I don't need stealth. Deaden is nice to have but I don't need it. I believe that I do need tidal though because sins get focused as much as BMs do but we do not have nearly as much defense as they do. So to compensate, we are harder to lock down.

I'm fine if i don't have stealth, I only use it to get out of ganks where other classes would've died. If i don't have deaden, ill just be more careful. I don't deny that Tidal is OP. I believe tidal is what makes the class, much more than stealth does. Sure, maybe venos need bramble. But the OP is talking about enabling bramble for all classes. Do all classes need bramble?

Either way though, I don't really have any complaints. I'm neutral whether bramble is enabled or not. But since the OP stated that enabling bramble will increase pvp activity, I am stating that I do not believe this is the case.

Btw, any 105 class can see a 105 sin in stealth, EXCEPT another 105 sin. Its kinda ironic i'd say xD They also changed it so that stealth detection pot no longer share cooldown with other apoth as well. (Same goes for lower levels, of course)

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This is my reply to MANray_.

Fair enough, I hope you do make it your last reply.

Oh wow, contempt is so much better than hatred, lol. I have stated already that bramble does not affect me as a DPH Assassin. The damage I deal by far exceeds the damage I take unless I get demon ironwooded or something which doesn't happen often with Tidal Protection. I have hit over 13ks for a 1 shot on r9 venos and taking as little as 3k in response, and I'm not even end game. Bramble helps me more than it hurts me because it lets me simply ignore APS sins trying to kill me in NW. However, just because it benefits me, I do not need it. However, you seem to fail to realize that and instead reply with comments that seemingly insults my intelligence. I take personal offense to that.

Therefore, this will probably be my last reply to you. Whether or not you agree with me is up to you, but my position will most likely still stand since you cannot make sound arguments by insulting people's intelligence.

Dude this isn't the My Little Pony forums and yes, I do feel contempt for those in privileged positions complaining about their woes to the less favoured, we're adults, deal with it. You've muddled an otherwise straightforward discussion with irrelevant and misleading arguments so don't try to take the high moral road on me, I've simply called you on it. And while I may not have done so in polite terms at least I'm not guilty of the intelectual dishonesty you've abundantly used in your expositions, so yeah, I'd much rather be accused of rudeness than of using deception to make my points. And on that topic, the pretension that this is not an issue to you personally is not just untenable but ridiculous, yeah I'd love to see you ignore Bramble Hood on a Veno in your same level/gear tier. At least I'm willing to admit that what we are discussing in here does affect my day to day gameplay.

Highly refined endgame gears reduce the damage taken from both Sov and bramble. However in the end, bramble still outshines the damage dealt by Sov, early game or end game. Sure, soul of silence is more powerful than bramble. But we're talking about reflects, not silences. Does psychics having silence mean that everyone should have reflect? So maybe if all arcanes get a melee reflect that work in world pvp, all melees should get a magic reflect that work in world pvp? But that is not my position. I am able to eliminate either melees or arcanes without the additional help of bramble. Same could be said about other classes. So why do they need it?

Here is a good example, in order to make the point that Bramble Guard outdamages Soul of Vengeance you argue whether all classes should get reflect... No, man, you just don't get to make blank statements and back them up with a ludicrous and unrelated Reductio ad Absurdum... Bramble and SoV have very different functionalities and distinct advantages, it doesn't follow that because Bramble outdamages SoV (which you have made no effort to prove in numbers) then it should be considered OP. As for your argument of "need" it is a disingenous strawman, do Sins "need" Stealth in order to get PvP kills? No, they don't, but it helps...

I won't argue that reflects help veno. But again, a psychic's reflect can be casted on one person while veno reflect can be casted on multiple people. Does every single class rely on reflect? I don't think so.

Reflect does help all classes (even Sins like you) to level the playing field against Sin stealth ganking. But let's leave overall PvP balance considerations aside and focus on your narrow minded Psy comparison. When dealing with melees Psys still get to use their voodoos, they also get to use Soul of Retaliation and Soul of Stunning. They've got Soul Burn and Psychic Will and Tide Spirt. And let's not forget Landslide. And I haven't even gotten to the skills they actually use to deal damage with... So, yeah, maybe SoV isn't quite as awesome as Bramble (which again you haven't proved) but what do Venos get for PvPing vs melees? Yes there's Amp and Purge, if your target really is just standing around singing trololol, and we do get Foxform. Other than that we've got Lucky Scarab and that's pretty much it. I mean Stunning Blow? Pounce? Nova? You do want to draw a skill by skill comparison, don't you? The thing is Venos do strongly rely on their reflects, and what I meant when I said you apparently have no idea what the circumstances were in the days they got nerfed is back then we had Ream and our pets. It's the reason Age of Spirits was originally seen as a popular expansion, it gave people a way to deal with Nixes. But that was before 100+ populations and highly refined endgame gears. Yes, our pets do get to ocassionally stun or slow an oponent but they are hardly seen as anything more than annoyances nowadays. So you take our pets and reflects away and what have we got left? Support skills? Or are we suposed to DoT melees to death? The freaking point to Bramble Hood is it allows you to get close enough to purge, it's not even a kill button against anything but stupid...

But as much as you and I hate to admit, in the end, gears do affect skills, to an extent. I used to use APS in TW. Bramble has only affected me if it was casted on full r9s. Against the regular TT99 and Nirvana, I am able to safely ignore its presence. I do not understand why you would discuss terms in your rights and not the OP's, since afterall, this isn't your thread. To me, I think it is more logical to discuss terms under the OP's circumstances. Why do I talk about end game gears? Because I believe that this game is extremely balanced if, but only if, everyone's gears are equal. Eventually, I would be end game. So I rather look ahead to what I could potentially do, as opposed to what I can already do. Sure, maybe you are not end game yet, or maybe you do not even desire to be end game. Sadly, that is where we differ and we will be speaking on different terms. I have pvped on my assassin since level 7x. I have killed people who can easily kill me if they understood better how assassins worked, or even bothered to use absolute domain. They don't need bramble. All bramble does is make those who are well geared harder to kill. But it will not affect me the least bit if I am fighting someone with weaker or equal gears.

Yes, and pretty much the last point I made does take into consideration the current state of the game. But this is me wasting my time dealing with a non-issue once again, because what I was originally replying to was an argument of yours based on the level dependant relative strenght of APS, which not being a legitimate PvP build is pretty much an off topic. And on the OP that you argue for his/her point, or even against, doesn't mean you agree with the way a problem has been phrased or that you endorse or disavow his/her views. I've made it abundantly clear my point isn't about APS, but about stealth ganking, because if we do make it about APS then there really isn't much left to discuss, reflect already makes it useless in mass PvP and in open world PK it is nothing more than the recourse of would be griefers that can't even be bothered to play their class right. It's not that you cannot use APS to PvP effectively, is that you should rely on more than just auto-attack to get your kills... And once again you return to your argument of whether reflect is "needed". It is for Veno, and is in part a reason why people like me stay away from open world PK...

I agree with you that a lot of people does not understand this game to it's full extent. Yet in the end, I believe that if you were to take those people who die to your bramble and face them head on without bramble, you would most likely be able to kill them anyway. I do not believe that you need bramble to kill people. Yes, it helps. Yes, its nice to have. But you don't need it. In fact, you are the only class that have their own built in personal ironguard. Psychics got one with the Morai expansion but they cannot use anti-stun with it, and that limits its potential. So then in the end, if you also don't believe that GMs will actually listen to our suggestion, then why are you bothering to argue with me? Because you desperately believe that venos cannot function unless everyone have bramble? Perhaps its hope that GMs will listen afterall? Maybe you would prefer that GMs listen to your suggestion to enable bramble, but I prefer that my squad would stop DCing in NW so we can help our nation score more points as opposed to getting base locked.

No, let's be punctual about this, I would not be able to face melees effectively without Bramble Guard or Bramble Hood. I know how to play my class but Venos simply don't get the skillset to prevent a melee in the same level/gear tier from getting into melee range and we don't have sufficient control skills to fully prevent them from attacking once there, much less in the time it takes us to drop them down. This is in good part the reason HA is considered a PvP veno build. Feral is slow casting and lasts for only 10 seconds, it's main purpose is to buy you time, it will accomplish little else on its own. It's apparent to me you are obviously not much of an expert in how Veno works so it seems pretentious for you to state what we do, and don't need. And as for my purpose in posting in this thread, well, it is to set the record straight. No doubt there may be even Venos (likely endgame geared and highly refined) that will argue we can do without reflects and they may very well be able to, barely. There are those who do succeed in open world PK, but they only do so through very severe handicaps. We barely get any control skills and, other than a genie's Occult Ice which everyone and their mom can get, only have access to two stuns, one dependant on you having a Nix or an appropiately skilled pet. We don't get anything, other than sparking and Natural Sinergy (which only works for our pets) that increases our damage output, only debuffs. And we are terribly slow casters. Reflecting damage really is an esential part of our PvP tactics and having this taken away is grossly unfair. Especially considering there's really only one class at the current state of the game that would be disadvantaged by it. But hey, given the terrible counters to stealth bringing back Veno refelct would probably only benefit ALL other classes.

b:bye

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:bye

All I'll say is, i read your reply and I say fair enough. I am not an expert on how venos work and I cannot accurately state their ability to kill people. Irregardless of that though, venos, along with clerics and bms, are still by far the most important support classes and are the backbone of any good pvp squad. I would prefer them, regardless of their ability to kill people solo and I praise those who dedicate themselves to playing these support classes. Thank you for your time.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · January 2013

KingClawX - Lost City wrote: »

again i have to say veno only defensive skill is bramble how many defenses does sin have

yea... its not like venos have a build in ironguard or anything.

KingClawX - Lost City · January 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't need stealth. Deaden is nice to have but I don't need it. I believe that I do need tidal though because sins get focused as much as BMs do but we do not have nearly as much defense as they do. So to compensate, we are harder to lock down.

I'm fine if i don't have stealth, I only use it to get out of ganks where other classes would've died. If i don't have deaden, ill just be more careful. I don't deny that Tidal is OP. I believe tidal is what makes the class, much more than stealth does. Sure, maybe venos need bramble. But the OP is talking about enabling bramble for all classes. Do all classes need bramble?

Either way though, I don't really have any complaints. I'm neutral whether bramble is enabled or not. But since the OP stated that enabling bramble will increase pvp activity, I am stating that I do not believe this is the case.

Btw, any 105 class can see a 105 sin in stealth, EXCEPT another 105 sin. Its kinda ironic i'd say xD They also changed it so that stealth detection pot no longer share cooldown with other apoth as well. (Same goes for lower levels, of course)

the true fact is that veno have no real deffence as fox is a entierly different mecanism and as arcane its barely helpfull and again cant cast spell in foxform its more like sin turning to mermaid wish no sin does anyways.

yes it might be a pain if veno where to cast bramble to every one BUt what if bramble was self cast only would u then agree to let venos have there bramble deffence.

idk about sin REALLY needing tidal i mean do barb bm or any other class have it no so i dobt its NEEDED its super usefull tho but needed NO.

The_owner - Lost City · January 2013

Bramble would work so godly in PvP

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

KingClawX - Lost City wrote: »

the true fact is that veno have no real deffence as fox is a entierly different mecanism and as arcane its barely helpfull and again cant cast spell in foxform its more like sin turning to mermaid wish no sin does anyways.

yes it might be a pain if veno where to cast bramble to every one BUt what if bramble was self cast only would u then agree to let venos have there bramble deffence.

idk about sin REALLY needing tidal i mean do barb bm or any other class have it no so i dobt its NEEDED its super usefull tho but needed NO.

Yeah you can enable bramble for venos if you want, its all good for me. They already have blazing barrier though so in a way it kinda works already anyway. But I do think you're forgetting about Feral Concentration, Bramble Hood ( for the reduction) and Soul Transfusion though, which all work along side fox form to help venos survive.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on assassins. I'll save that for some other time.

BanMePls - Heavens Tear · January 2013

If bramble w0rked in PK, what w0uld bec0me 0f all th0se p00r n00b sins that d0n't kn0w what the bramble ic0n l00ks like v.v.

/Slash - Lost City · January 2013

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

It works in TW.
It works in NW.
The only place it doesn't work is PK. It seems kinda pointless to discourage 5aps melee use in the two biggest instances of PWI, but then to allow it in PK. It's not like sins and BMs absolutely cannot fight without APS either.

Triggering bramble for PK as well would do worlds to revive open PK while also giving sins a chance to practice vs. bramble and learn their damned class for NW and TW instead of just herpderping random targets in Nation War before dying immediately. No joke, I've had a NW scenario where I had four sins on me and all four proceeded to kill themselves on bramble.

So why not turn bramble on? The only logical explanation I can give is that obviously there's always kiddos who'll CS up a class like sin if it makes them quasi-godlike in PK, but I think I speak for most servers when I say PK has dramatically died down since Nation War's release; most people are getting their PVP fix on the weekend so PK isn't really neccesary. Thus, making a sin is ALREADY less appealing at this point. I know several sins who I can go toe-to-toe with in PK but during NW they just absolutely will NOT go near me because bramble + Psy reflect is too much. I can't imagine these people will continue to play sin in NW as sin is a sort of unappealing NW option for that exact reason. Thus the sin population is likely to die down anyway, and such an official change like bramble working MIGHT encourage people who used to avoid PK because of sins anyways to go out and give it a try, thus increasing the server activity as a whole, thus increasing customer satisfaction and thus increasing sales because you KNOW competition promotes cash shopping via rage-purchases. (10mil says Lost City and Harshlands cash shop the hardest)

Long story short? Everybody wins, from the players to the community to PWI itself. 'Cept sins, and **** them because nobody cares about sins.

Inb4 an overwhelming amount of people vote yes on the poll.

I think that some ppl should try to actually fight in pvp , instead of always be trying to find ways to avoid pvp.
As psychic, u have already enough possibility of skillz to counter sins, now learn to use them would be even more helpfull than making bramble works in pvp.
You will always find a reason to complain.

...So why DOESN'T bramble work in PK?

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