Max APS 3.0

Jin_Wang - Lost City · December 2011

Some of you do not understand, it have nothing to do with attack speed... Even with 3.0, they may kill slower, but still faster than you can (in single targets, mind you) and you still will complain about "imbalance". 3.0 means 15 chi per second, just 10 less than 5.0... so in ten seconds, that's 150 chi. You are also forgetting about spark potions and cloud eruption. It won't stop them from chaining spark frequently which is what they use 5.0 APS for. What person will want to just auto attack bosses without sparking?

Let's be real, maybe not all of us use a single spark, spamming it actually. The 700% weapon damage bonus from 3 spark is more superior than even sage taken aim (500% weapon damage). While it heals 20% of HP/MP, for physical classes that spam it don't really need heals as for casters you get easy MP this way. Purify from it stole the cleric's job. Most importantly... No cool down while it have no MP / HP cost, This makes most skills absolutely obsolete because it massively boosts weapon damage. Even though using skills do higher damage on hit, yet there will be no need to because of 700% weapon damage.

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2011

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

@Quillue :
- Like I said "of same lvl". Maybe I should have specified "lvl" doesn't only imply the digits in left upper corner of screen. For me it also implies the lvl, or quality if you prefer, of gear. But I'll ask you a question in return : you think it's normal for a LA class to solo a hard hitting physical boss like Snakefist, while on barb I need cleric and DD?
- They should start spreading events, instead of making stupid EU servers. Anyway, I'd still like to see a wizzard soloing TT 3-x. Cause that is what's not normal, that you can talk about ppl that got their gear not by farming doesn't change that fact.

Are you talking about this?

or are you saying any sin with **** poor gear can solo Snakefist while a barb in +12 R9 can't?

Also, why would you like to see a wizard solo 3-x? Is it possibly because you want a ranged class to be able to deal as much single target DPS as a melee class? Anyone with good enough gear can tank 3-x, it's just about how long it'd take or how long you'd last.

Renza - Raging Tide · December 2011

If it was 3.0 instead of 5.0, there might be perhaps more reason to go sage, instead of the demon craze all the time, including the fact that other classes would then be included in the BM/sin fest that this game is with every single dungeon, I would see no harm in it.

P.S while were at it, why don't we reduce max refine to 10.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · December 2011

Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »

If it was 3.0 instead of 5.0, there might be perhaps more reason to go sage, instead of the demon craze all the time, including the fact that other classes would then be included in the BM/sin fest that this game is with every single dungeon, I would see no harm in it.

P.S while were at it, why don't we reduce max refine to 10.

Since I'm a 3.33 Sage sin, I'd barely be affected. In fact, I'd be in the popular "highest DD" class.

Hooray for capping APS at 3.0! GO 3.0! DO IT NOW! FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

b:cute

Shadowfire - Dreamweaver · December 2011

Honestly, I vote no, even though my main is a wizard. I farmed gear to make a 5aps sin to farm things, it took a while, but is possible.

Also, it's a mistake to thing reducing aps would make all the "5aps/+10 or better" squads take the classes they currently don't. Instead, we'd probably get bigger squads of "3aps +10", or something similar. People will STILL not take magic classes, or non-aps barbs. Healers would probably get more squads, but barbs/wizards/psys/non-aps archers would still not be taken by the squads everyone complains about.

And, I for one do not want to return to the days of running an hour-two hour TT just to get the last pick of drops and get exactly 0 of the mats that I need for gear. How was that fun?

KingThis - Heavens Tear · December 2011

WHERE CAN I VOTE FOR 7.0 APS, KTHXBAIz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
b:chuckle

KingThis - Heavens Tear · December 2011

Shadowfire - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Honestly, I vote no, even though my main is a wizard. I farmed gear to make a 5aps sin to farm things, it took a while, but is possible.

Also, it's a mistake to thing reducing aps would make all the "5aps/+10 or better" squads take the classes they currently don't. Instead, we'd probably get bigger squads of "3aps +10", or something similar. People will STILL not take magic classes, or non-aps barbs. Healers would probably get more squads, but barbs/wizards/psys/non-aps archers would still not be taken by the squads everyone complains about.

And, I for one do not want to return to the days of running an hour-two hour TT just to get the last pick of drops and get exactly 0 of the mats that I need for gear. How was that fun?

at least someone around here haz brainz b:thanks

Seamen - Dreamweaver · December 2011

I don't understand what the haters for 5 aps are trying to accomplish. We are not glitching or bugging the game to get 5 aps. We are not hacking into the game to get 5 aps. We are simply using mathematics ( if you want to call it that ) and the gears to get to where we want to be. We are using the bonus -.05 int to our advantage when having two tt99 gears as well as buying an int tome. We are just simply playing the game like everyone else and should not be penalized for using specific gears to our advantage and not needing additional help for nirvana or fc or whatever. We use other resources like pots, divine quest pots, hp / mp food and charms. We are not cheating we are not doing anything wrong so I guarantee 5 aps is staying. It isn't like fc 3 rd boss goons that we glitch the game to give us 200 goons. THAT was cheating bc you are using an exploit/bug to your advantage that the programmers did not intend. So with that being said. I love duoing nirvana with my BFF sin! 5 aps +11 ftw.

Tatuaje - Lost City · December 2011

Avoiding the argument about, if changing the APS to 3.0 would be better for the game specifically just ask yourself.

Does making a 5.0 toon make more money for PWI then a 3.0 would? Cause that is what PWI will be analyzing.

RichCyphr - Heavens Tear · December 2011

What is wrong with people?

I started with a cleric. Then I saw the advantage of APS, so I made an APS BM and then Sin. I made a ton of money. Then I saw the real TW advantages of r9 psys... so I made one of those. Use your brains people, why QQ when it is so easy to adapt and overcome?! Want fair? Play Tetris you babies.

Nut - Lothranis · December 2011

3.0 aps = 0.33 int. between hits b:bored

That'd make pwi make us new gear with -.02 ints which means more (pointless) work which means nooo, it'll never happen.

So next time be precise : 3.33 or 2.86

Aquyla - Heavens Tear · December 2011

well let's say this way:

caps aps and also lower dmg from magic classes to be fair for any class so barbs can hold aggro or

don't caps aps and leave everything as it is but make bosses hit harder, much harder or make aggro skills useful so heavy armour classes can only survive hit.

i'm telling this from perspective of one tank.

Jay_Dubbz - Lost City · December 2011

Nut - Lothranis wrote: »

3.0 aps = 0.33 int. between hits b:bored

That'd make pwi make us new gear with -.02 ints which means more (pointless) work which means nooo, it'll never happen.

So next time be precise : 3.33 or 2.86

exactly, 3.0 aps doesnt even exist in this game lol

LilWolfy - Heavens Tear · December 2011

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Magic attacks can be interrupted, is their built-in downside.

all atks that have any cast time at all (which is all but instant skills) can be intrupted. the only reason caster skills get interupted so offten is because their skills have a greater cast time which in turn makes it more likely they will have their skill interupted

Atlantasia - Sanctuary · December 2011

I honestly am tired of these threads, I mean come on, they've been on these forums since the beginning of the game, it just used to be about venos instead of APS. Oh QQ a veno with a Herc can tank a TT and solo it. >.>; Then APS came along and they can do it better so people switched to QQing about that. All I can say is learn to adapt.

Only thing I wish is I had gotten on the band wagon when it first started, but I quite enjoy my sin. I work hard to better her gear, and it was almost an entire year of hard work for me to finally get her to 5.0 and I was so proud of that. So after all that hard work you'd all have that taken away?

I think I'd quit the game, I remember the old days, when TT 3-3 took 3-4 hours and you were so lucky to get a gold mat. I was an instance officer, it was a rare drop for my faction, and I'll be honest, I felt I would never be able to get the gear I wanted without charging a ton of money to the game or wasting my life on 5 million merchanting catshops. When APS started to take the stage gear became more affordable. Much as I hate the messed up prices they do actually benefit people. Especially the non CSers, because they don't have to save up so much for TT 99 gear and the like, which if all you're doing is PvE, then that's all you really ever need.

I voted no, I worked for this, I think I deserve to enjoy the benefits of my hard labor, just as anyone does who saves up for an item they want and then finally purchases it does.

Shadowphreak - Lost City · December 2011

Voted no. Lowering aps to 3 would make sins practically useless and what about archers and bm's?

Big game changer. Will never happen.

Mor_Toran - Sanctuary · December 2011

Yes, because they were so useless before high APS became easily attainable. b:chuckle

Seriously, they played just find before the super hyper OP 5.0 was discovered, they would be just fine without it.

Remember those things called skills? (and no, I don't mean sparking)
Yeah, you could like, use them instead of just auto-attack failing.

I would love to see the game return to where teamwork was something that was required.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · December 2011

all this nerf apps **** is dumb as hell. Whoever usually starts this kind of topics is even more dumb.

APS don't need nerf, casters need buff, especially in PvE. Take off the elemental dmg reduction on (?) bosses, and out of the blue you buff casters to the point of a good decent DD. Still won't out-dd a 4-5 aps, but at least casters won't be total leechers when in squad with aps classes.

The current problem is that casters are pretty much like your week-end car: It stays in the garage for 5 days just so you can take it for a spin for a few hours on Friday/Saturday/Sunday evenings. The rest of the time? You go with your trusty aps class, make money, buy stuff, feel good about it. Caster nirvana was a pale (and incredibly stupid implemented) attempt to somehow bring casters back in PvE play. Unfortunately because of the failure of the implementation and the fact that it came so late, it's pretty much a deserted instance. Much of the active casters a long time ago switched to aps classes and just stick with it. They won't go back to their caster toons for a niche instance that they struggle getting people for when they so simply and easily can pay a few openers and solo that instance on their aps toon.

Topics like this one do not help the situation either. Why nerf aps? Why make everything in game harder and consequently way more expensive? Why not make current content more accessible and gear cheaper to attain and add new content while making casters more of a factor? Wouldn't you like to be able to do a 3 man nirvana-like instance and not care what class you’re taking along as long as it has a good refine on weapon?

The buff could come from the newly announced PvE gear. Anyone has any idea if aps still get their interval? If channeling is a common stat? Casters are not really bad defense wise, buffing out the dmg output in PvE would go a long way to the path of being usefull in in squads.

Nerf aps ... why?
Cap aps to 3.0...why? My +10 g13 sin will still do more than 10 times the damage my wizard is capable of. Yes, at 3 aps my sin will do 10x the damage my R8 wizard does.
The moment you people understand that nerf/cap aps is not the solution to this game's problems we're going to start walking on the right path to do something about those problems. For now, you're just running around and barking at the terribly, terribly wrong tree.

Mor_Toran - Sanctuary wrote: »

Remember those things called skills? (and no, I don't mean sparking)
I do, but do you?
Yeah, you could like, use them instead of just auto-attack failing.
sure , awesome. Let's go do 1 nirvana run every 4-5 hours, how about that? That's pretty much the timeframe it took a while back (pre-aps) to do 3-3 run. There was a reason why there was no timer on TT before aps craze.

I would love to see the game return to where teamwork was something that was required.
I would too, but I would not like to see the game return to where if you were not ingame 10-12 hours/day having good endgame gear was nearly impossible

My comments above.
And keep in mind, this is a game. People want to have fun and while doing that get some achievements of some sorts. The moment you need to spend tens of hours after tens hours in a game to get one ring or one necklace or a slight increase in refine is not fun anymore. It's called stupid, mindless grinding , and if you have an slight idea about western MMO marked, you realize all the incoming MMOs are moving away from it. They will have it as optional of course, but you won't have to grind for anything. You won't have to spend 300-400 hours in an instance to make a gear you outgrown in a few weeks.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2011

Seamen - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't understand what the haters for 5 aps are trying to accomplish. We are not glitching or bugging the game to get 5 aps. We are not hacking into the game to get 5 aps. We are simply using mathematics ( if you want to call it that ) and the gears to get to where we want to be. We are using the bonus -.05 int to our advantage when having two tt99 gears as well as buying an int tome. We are just simply playing the game like everyone else and should not be penalized for using specific gears to our advantage and not needing additional help for nirvana or fc or whatever. We use other resources like pots, divine quest pots, hp / mp food and charms. We are not cheating we are not doing anything wrong so I guarantee 5 aps is staying. It isn't like fc 3 rd boss goons that we glitch the game to give us 200 goons. THAT was cheating bc you are using an exploit/bug to your advantage that the programmers did not intend. So with that being said. I love duoing nirvana with my BFF sin! 5 aps +11 ftw.

i just hope the new skills wont make make some aps QQ b:shutup

Kylong - Raging Tide · December 2011

I wonder if not only PWE change the max aps but now only bms could use fist/claws what would happen? Would the game be more balance? How many people would ragequit? Would bms become the most popular or second most popular class in the game?

No more clawarcher,clawbarics and etcb:chuckle

Michael_Dark - Lost City · December 2011

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Magic attacks can be interrupted, is their built-in downside.

Duh. You should also have a slight chance to miss or fumble the spell completely.

Blademaster has one skill that does more than 100% added base weapon damage... mage has skills that add 200%-500% base damage. That's broken and should be fixed.

I'm all for "fixing" APS. But you think you should get that for free? No. Balance the other classes too.

But of course, the idiotic people always want other classes nerfed than their own instead of having any semblance of balance.

Zarni - Dreamweaver · December 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Duh. You should also have a slight chance to miss or fumble the spell completely.

Blademaster has one skill that does more than 100% added base weapon damage... mage has skills that add 200%-500% base damage. That's broken and should be fixed.

I'm all for "fixing" APS. But you think you should get that for free? No. Balance the other classes too.

But of course, the idiotic people always want other classes nerfed than their own instead of having any semblance of balance.

Said it before and I'll say it again: balance is not the same as homogeneity. If you want BMs to hit twice as hard or mages to do half the damage or be able to miss, you also need to make those mages have 25k+ hp at endgame, to keep that balance. A BM in magic marrow has the same or better magic defense than I do and twice or more HP, reduce my damage by half and there is no way for me to kill said BM unless I manage to crit 4 times in a row after sparking and without him using any genie/apoth/charms. Those skills that mages have with high weapon damage adds take a long time to channel, higher damage comes with slower attacking, a BM may hit half as hard as a mage but they hit twice as fast at least (or 15 times as fast using fists......). BM weapons have sacrificial strike, mages don't, BMs have higher basic crit rates as well, that higher chance to deal double damage and possibility of quadruple damage makes up for the lower weapon attack add to skills. blahblahblahblah

I'm not saying PWI is balanced or anything, not by a long shot. I'm just saying that balancing isn't as simple as nerfing one class or another.

I played a game (in pre-beta) that had no distinct classes, any sort of character could use any armor/weapon/skills. "Endgame" pvp was awful, just a matter of who got the first hit, as everyone gave and took damage and healed at the exact same rates.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · December 2011

Zarni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Said it before and I'll say it again: balance is not the same as homogeneity. If you want BMs to hit twice as hard or mages to do half the damage or be able to miss, you also need to make those mages have 25k+ hp at endgame, to keep that balance. A BM in magic marrow has the same or better magic defense than I do and twice or more HP, reduce my damage by half and there is no way for me to kill said BM unless I manage to crit 4 times in a row after sparking and without him using any genie/apoth/charms.

Those endgame mages typically have as good if not better pdef than a BM.

And where did I say that I wanted BMs to hit twice as hard?

Seriously, you're over-complicating the issue.

And you're also implying that a 3 aps BM is lethal to you. Or are you afraid of axe-BMs? lol.

Either you're delusional or trolling me.

Those skills that mages have with high weapon damage adds take a long time to channel, higher damage comes with slower attacking, a BM may hit half as hard as a mage but they hit twice as fast at least (or 15 times as fast using fists......).

Yes, they have a long cast time. You're also able to cast that at a long range. A BM, expecially a fist BM needs to be in your face. You can use pots or genie skills to negate a BM's ability to stun.

I'm not saying PWI is balanced or anything, not by a long shot. I'm just saying that balancing isn't as simple as nerfing one class or another.

APS is a PvE balance issue. Magic damage is a PvP balance issue. You can't just adjust one thing without affecting the balance of others.

So if you want to balance APS, magic classes need a nerf as well.

Tell me, when is the last time you were afraid of an axe BM?

/thread

P.S. Before APS end-game BMs were worthless and never included in farming or zhen parties.... But I guess you don't remember that, or would like them to be worthless again.

Jin_Wang - Lost City · December 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

I'm all for "fixing" APS. But you think you should get that for free? No. Balance the other classes too.

But of course, the idiotic people always want other classes nerfed than their own instead of having any semblance of balance.

Aside from the flames, +1 to this... Remove spark I, II and III or massively nerf them... problem solved for all classes.

Zarni - Dreamweaver · December 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Those endgame mages typically have as good if not better pdef than a BM. And half the HP, so you have similar defenses, and twice the HP, and hit half as hard but twice as fast. Sorry but that does sound kinda balanced.

And where did I say that I wanted BMs to hit twice as hard? In your comment that I quoted in the post you quoted (quoted quotes ftw).....

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Blademaster has one skill that does more than 100% added base weapon damage... mage has skills that add 200%-500% base damage. That's broken and should be fixed.

if that doesn't mean you want BMs to hit twice as hard what does it mean? You want mages to hit half as hard?

Seriously, you're over-complicating the issue.

And you're also implying that a 3 aps BM is lethal to you. Or are you afraid of axe-BMs? lol. 3aps BM, not so much, but then I never said I wanted aps nerfed. 5aps hurts a bit but I gotta be pretty unprepared or getting ganked to die from it most times, it's pve where 5aps is king, any BM using fists is pvp is silly. A BM with g15 or r9 +10etc hurts like hell and can kill me just as well as a similarly geared wiz. Before you lol at my failz for not simply killing the BM before he gets near me, 99% of my pvp experience is in TW (been doing it for over 2 years, with 4 different classes at different times) and in TW you can't always be totally prepared for every attack.

Either you're delusional or trolling me.A little bit of both maybe, it's all in fun either way, hope you aren't somehow personally offended......

Yes, they have a long cast time. You're also able to cast that at a long range. A BM, expecially a fist BM needs to be in your face. You can use pots or genie skills to negate a BM's ability to stun. Annnnnd, a BM can use skills/pots/genie too, pretty cool huh? Again, referring to TW here, the "hey, lets 1v1, you go stand back and count to 3" sort of pvp is boring as all hell, not so much from class balance but situational imbalance.

APS is a PvE balance issue. Magic damage is a PvP balance issue. You can't just adjust one thing without affecting the balance of others.It seems PW is trying to do just that. The blessing of the gods in the 9 trials and some pve only debuffs/buffs like the seekers shatter skills and the coming mystic pve squad buff add to the damage skill using classes do in pve.

So if you want to balance APS, magic classes need a nerf as well.
I don't want anything nerfed, I was actually trying to point out why nerfing things wouldn't be a good solution. People like power and speed, taking it away won't help anything. Balance can be achieved by adding power to non-aps classes, but as you've pointed out, they are already strong enough in pvp, so it has to be pve specific power.

Tell me, when is the last time you were afraid of an axe BM?
The last time my genie/apoth/immunity skills were in cooldown from killing a catapult squad and a r9 +12 axe BM ran at me, popped an IG and stun/hf'd me. Granted, at least that gives me time to be afraid, not like the archers I didn't even see or sins in stealth.....b:chuckle
/thread

Yer not a mod, quit that.
P.S. Before APS end-game BMs were worthless and never included in farming or zhen parties.... But I guess you don't remember that, or would like them to be worthless again.Yeah, let's make BMs worthless! Wait a minute..... Oh noes, what will I do with my BM? Oh well, it can gather dust with my old vit barb and sage cleric...... lol, jk, I don't want any nerfing of anything, I'm more of a "have cake and eat it too" person than a "no cake for anyone cause I dun like yer cakes" type.

words, just words

freygin · December 2011

if the aps is going to be nerfed to 3.0 , sin should be spared from taking aggro from any boss because bp will suck less hp and reduce sin's tanking ability, melee damage from some bosses is insane and sin is the only melee class with LA.

also they should nerf Wizard's 79 skill which reduces 60% water/earth/fire def. It's just too much since Wizzard's dph hits real hard.

Renza - Raging Tide · December 2011

People defending 5aps = people using/going to use 5aps and/or the lazy players.
People against 5aps = people that don't want to join the band wagon of extreme easy mode PWI and can clearly see how it's broken.

Radamanthys - Heavens Tear · December 2011

This thread is dumb.

Aizza - Harshlands · December 2011

Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »

People defending 5aps = people using/going to use 5aps and/or the lazy players.
People against 5aps = people that don't want to join the band wagon of extreme easy mode PWI and can clearly see how it's broken.

Lazy are we?

If it was not for my 4.0/5.0 aps, depending on which I used - MANY would not even of gotten into Nirvana during this 2x and other 2x's. Psychics, Archers, Mystics... Most no-aps or low-aps.

Talk to me - when's the last time anyone you know - took a no-low ap person to Nirvana. I do... and any squad I go with - will if I ask. Two weeks ago I took an entire group and tanked every single boss as they struggled and had to step back to live. We did three runs and I donated my raps/cannys.

Today - I took four guildies through FC, six through TT. Just me and them, for the TT was a squad of 1 mostly and I handed over the mats.

My time, my charm and this lazy aps person as you say, was helping them get their gear.

Some of us are independent, and like to do things alone. Some of us understand it's not easy to pull a full squad together, so ARE a full squad - ready to help friends and the guild out. We are not always... lazy as you say.

_Perses_ - Lost City · December 2011

Pointless thread is pointless.

wtb> mod edit powers to delete this thread, PM ME PRICE!

Max APS 3.0

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