Max APS 3.0

Renza - Raging Tide

Aizza - Harshlands wrote: »

Lazy are we?

If it was not for my 4.0/5.0 aps, depending on which I used - MANY would not even of gotten into Nirvana during this 2x and other 2x's. Psychics, Archers, Mystics... Most no-aps or low-aps.

Talk to me - when's the last time anyone you know - took a no-low ap person to Nirvana. I do... and any squad I go with - will if I ask. Two weeks ago I took an entire group and tanked every single boss as they struggled and had to step back to live. We did three runs and I donated my raps/cannys.

Today - I took four guildies through FC, six through TT. Just me and them, for the TT was a squad of 1 mostly and I handed over the mats.

My time, my charm and this lazy aps person as you say, was helping them get their gear.

Some of us are independent, and like to do things alone. Some of us understand it's not easy to pull a full squad together, so ARE a full squad - ready to help friends and the guild out. We are not always... lazy as you say.

Try not to period all over me, just for calling aps people lazy, I'll re-word it then shall I, "most" aps users are lazy, though there is a huge difference between being generous and just being lazy, when I say "lazy", I mean it in different ways specifically to this game, you pick a sin for the pretty much main purpose to use it for the aps and ability to pretty much tank the majority of bosses without so much of a heal with no effort involved.

As people have said in this thread, something along the lines of "I don't want to be spending 1-2 hours in TT per run", well I still do it and I personally don't mind, at the end of the run I can walk away with 1-3 mats average or so and I'm fine with that, other people though, they cba to "play the game as it was intended before aps came in", they rather end that boss in 10 seconds flat with 5aps triple spark all day, I mean sure, who woulden't want it that easy?, fact is, I don't think the devs quite saw the future of what damage having the ability to have 5 attacks per second would do to the game in which it now makes casters "useless" and people only want to take aps characters to wtfpwn the bosses for there gear.

Bellarie - Raging Tide

Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »

Try not to period all over me, just for calling aps people lazy, I'll re-word it then shall I, "most" aps users are lazy, though there is a huge difference between being generous and just being lazy, when I say "lazy", I mean it in different ways specifically to this game, you pick a sin for the pretty much main purpose to use it for the aps and ability to pretty much tank the majority of bosses without so much of a heal with no effort involved.

As people have said in this thread, something along the lines of "I don't want to be spending 1-2 hours in TT per run", well I still do it and I personally don't mind, at the end of the run I can walk away with 1-3 mats average or so and I'm fine with that, other people though, they cba to "play the game as it was intended before aps came in", they rather end that boss in 10 seconds flat with 5aps triple spark all day, I mean sure, who woulden't want it that easy?, fact is, I don't think the devs quite saw the future of what damage having the ability to have 5 attacks per second would do to the game in which it now makes casters "useless" and people only want to take aps characters to wtfpwn the bosses for there gear.

I agree. I originally looked forward to endgame because I wanted to enjoy lengthy, challenging dungeon romps with a squad of people that took a few hours and had the possibility of a death or two. But now, I see that this game has no such challenges or time-consumers, because people apparently no longer enjoy those sort of pastimes. Then again, I grew up in the days of "Nintendo Hard" gaming and I actually do enjoy a challenge. I wonder how many players here could handle SO4's 6-winged Ethereal Queen on Chaos Difficulty without using Reimi or Meracle....

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Zarni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

words, just words

You read that wrong. I was just comparing skill damage buffs between classes.

And as for nerfing anything, reducing the APS cap won't actually help. Sin and psychic will still be OP compared to the rest of the classes.

If anything, fist/claw has revivied the BM and barb as classes more than imbalance things. R9 is nice for BM but it's still not as good as it is for ranged classes.

Renza - Raging Tide

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

You read that wrong. I was just comparing skill damage buffs between classes.

And as for nerfing anything, reducing the APS cap won't actually help. Sin and psychic will still be OP compared to the rest of the classes.

If anything, fist/claw has revivied the BM and barb as classes more than imbalance things. R9 is nice for BM but it's still not as good as it is for ranged classes.

There is one thing right with that and one thing wrong with that, those being:

It's revived them because they can gain 5aps to kill things super fast, thus helping them farm there own **** and gain money.

It's killed them because they can't hold agro against people with 5aps if they're not using aps them selfs, also, they will never out DD sins anyway so they still aren't holding agro and doing there job as a tank, it's even worse for the barbs that refuse to "break" their class and use a weapon that was never really inteded for them, it's just ironic that seekers can't use claws/fists, for pretty much no reason, the devs are just stupid.

KingThis - Heavens Tear

noooooo! 7.0 pls, or fix gold prices please! Silly cashshoppers dont need to farm unlike us farmersb:thanks

Nniotora - Lost City

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

You read that wrong. I was just comparing skill damage buffs between classes.

And as for nerfing anything, reducing the APS cap won't actually help. Sin and psychic will still be OP compared to the rest of the classes.

If anything, fist/claw has revivied the BM and barb as classes more than imbalance things. R9 is nice for BM but it's still not as good as it is for ranged classes.

your words go unheard here i said that so many times they think a mage with 20K hp 31k pdef should 2 shot barb with 50k hp not even sparked or crits they have no diea how broken endgame casters are. What they usually do including in zarni's case compare a +7 rank9 wiz vs a +12 rank9 sin or full +12 bm.They will never get that right now its already balanced aps for pve casters for pvp sins on the other hand have both pve and pvp cuz all control skills and stealth. They basic QQ cuz they cant do PvE as fast but when you talk about PvP they try to defend it harder then aps ppl try to defend aps and that ppl is called being a hypocrit i can say alot off names here but that would be naming and shaming

DemansPsy - Lost City

I like how whenever someone makes one of these threads they suggest an impossible aps(you cannot be 3.0 in this game) please learn how aps works before making a suggestion.b:bye

OontzOontz - Dreamweaver

Doesn't matter how you get there. A cap is a cap.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »

There is one thing right with that and one thing wrong with that, those being:

It's revived them because they can gain 5aps to kill things super fast, thus helping them farm there own **** and gain money.

It's killed them because they can't hold agro against people with 5aps if they're not using aps them selfs, also, they will never out DD sins anyway so they still aren't holding agro and doing there job as a tank, it's even worse for the barbs that refuse to "break" their class and use a weapon that was never really inteded for them, it's just ironic that seekers can't use claws/fists, for pretty much no reason, the devs are just stupid.

You're talking PvE here. Any adjustments to attack rate or magic damage can easily be done by altering mobs pdef and mdef.

In PvP, fists/claws isn't a game breaker. Most ranged classes that aps-rage about PvP are just upset that they don't just dominate BMs like they used to anymore.

The fact of the matter is that Dagger damage is way too high and both fishy classes are OP when compared to the rest in PvP.

APS is just obscuring your vision of the real truth. lol However, you did correctly note the devs are just plain stupid.

Nure_onna - Dreamweaver

a +12 3,33aps base sin sparking and jumping out from stealth will still be damn op

DeepAqua - Heavens Tear

Aizza - Harshlands wrote: »

Scenario:

- I need a boss... can anyone help me (a few say "I can")

- Okay - we need a cleric (one will be on in an hour)(oh an hour? No I have to go soon)

- Okay - let me check my FL - please check your FL

(30 minutes go by)

- Anyone find a barb or tanker? (No..)

(30 minutes go by)

- Okay I found a tanker and a cleric - let's go (I can't go - sorry)

- Okay I found a tanker, cleric and DDer - let's go (okay - squad us)

(15 minutes as people fly-tele-run to instance)

(get in instance at boss, the Cleric DC's - total squad wipe)

- Cleric back to rez us ? (No....)

- Anyone know a cleric? (No....) (Dude I got to go).

Yeah - fond memories... want these days back?

This is total Horsechit... I have had plenty of succesful squads before aps. did you stop to think maybe the problem was YOU?

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Are you talking about this?

Luckily I never had to use that kind of "trick" to kill a boss.

I'm sure you know very well what I mean. Imo, endgame bosses shouldn't be tanked, let alone solo'ed, by a LA class. It breaks all team-play when you don't need squads because 1 or 2 classes are able to solo litteraly every boss in about the same time as a whole squad.

You seem to have an exception-based reasoning, so I don't think we'll ever agree. And it doesn't matter anyway. Not like another poll/discussion would all the sudden make them rebalance the game.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Luckily I never had to use that kind of "trick" to kill a boss.

I'm sure you know very well what I mean. Imo, endgame bosses shouldn't be tanked, let alone solo'ed, by a LA class. It breaks all team-play when you don't need squads because 1 or 2 classes are able to solo litteraly every boss in about the same time as a whole squad.

You seem to have an exception-based reasoning, so I don't think we'll ever agree. And it doesn't matter anyway. Not like another poll/discussion would all the sudden make them rebalance the game.

You soloed some bosses in warsong a while ago on your sin which is insanely hard to do b:shocked

_Ghoul_ - Lost City

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Those endgame mages typically have as good if not better pdef than a BM.

And where did I say that I wanted BMs to hit twice as hard?

Seriously, you're over-complicating the issue.

And you're also implying that a 3 aps BM is lethal to you. Or are you afraid of axe-BMs? lol.

Either you're delusional or trolling me.





Yes, they have a long cast time. You're also able to cast that at a long range. A BM, expecially a fist BM needs to be in your face. You can use pots or genie skills to negate a BM's ability to stun.





APS is a PvE balance issue. Magic damage is a PvP balance issue. You can't just adjust one thing without affecting the balance of others.

So if you want to balance APS, magic classes need a nerf as well.

Tell me, when is the last time you were afraid of an axe BM?

/thread


P.S. Before APS end-game BMs were worthless and never included in farming or zhen parties.... But I guess you don't remember that, or would like them to be worthless again.

lol get real aps player are DEX players **** it if ur gona complain about the damage you guys take from magic damage. you guys made a choice about going dex and dumping vit so do not complain about being easy prey to magic in pk.

this is about hit per sec not about the 3str 2dex build you made.

thumbs

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm sure you know very well what I mean. Imo, endgame bosses shouldn't be tanked, let alone solo'ed, by a LA class. It breaks all team-play when you don't need squads because 1 or 2 classes are able to solo litteraly every boss in about the same time as a whole squad..

End game bosses often have random aggro, so LA including AA should be able to tank.

I don't understand 1 or 2 classes are able to solo literally every boss. I have a Lv. 101 4aps base sage assassin that with almost 7k hp unbuffed needs cleric and barb buffs to solo Black Hole Devourer which a veno or mystic could solo at Lv. 90 with far inferior equips. I won't even try Xenospace Drake on Assassin yet, which my veno can do.

People complaining about aps are just ignorant. 4 of the 6 toons I'm actively playing are casters, and only one of the two melee is aps. I've put so much more into my aps assassin than I have my casters and I don't get that much more out of it. I can do some things better with it, and my casters can do their own things better.

Why does no one complain that a non aps barb can round up every mob in site in VoS and 1-2 hit AoE 95%+ them?

Why does no one complain that Mystic pets hit [?] like a cash shop veno pet (nix), costs relatively nothing, can go in instances and traverse water, land and air?

Carry on with pointing the finger, just know you aren't united as some of us casters know how OP we are in our own rights.

KingThis - Heavens Tear

you all lost the game, run after it?

_Ghoul_ - Lost City

KingThis - Heavens Tear wrote: »

you all lost the game, run after it?

cough GOONER cough

KingThis - Heavens Tear

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

cough GOONER cough

hey hey it took me 5 years to get to lvl 105 tyvm, you BARB ha!

Aizza - Harshlands

DeepAqua - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is total Horsechit... I have had plenty of succesful squads before aps. did you stop to think maybe the problem was YOU?

Sure believe what I said to not be true then tell me why there are people spamming World Chat and Open Chat for help as well as begging an assist when I walk by on my main or alts that look higher level. Most of them have guilds, and when I ask 'why not ask their guild' they say either no one is online, everyone is busy or etc..

How about you back off the insults a bit.

There are so many people from various time zones and many just do not have the hours to play. It can be difficult to wait around to find a Cleric, a Barb and full squad.

HardToThink - Lost City

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

I'd vote yes too, but I agree, magic attacks need to be nerfed or have a chance to fumble (effects hitting themselves instead of intended target)... or reduce maximum multipliers for sparked or normal skill attacks to like 200% maximum.

no go back to quitting michael x/x 2 sparks for a chance to 1 shot myself would be sad =[[

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Luckily I never had to use that kind of "trick" to kill a boss.

I'm sure you know very well what I mean. Imo, endgame bosses shouldn't be tanked, let alone solo'ed, by a LA class. It breaks all team-play when you don't need squads because 1 or 2 classes are able to solo litteraly every boss in about the same time as a whole squad.

You seem to have an exception-based reasoning, so I don't think we'll ever agree. And it doesn't matter anyway. Not like another poll/discussion would all the sudden make them rebalance the game.

Let me list the ways the game is 'broken' for you.

1) Genies
2) Bless Boxes +30 attack levels
3) Bloodpaint
4) Fail stealth
5) APS
6) Rank gear
7) Packs

Let's see an example. I was doing FCC last night on my barb. Not a huge thing, lots of barbs do FCC, many solo FCC. But I was level 77 on my Barb, so was doing it with a full squad. We had a little oopsie at the boss that spawns bishops, and our cleric died. Both Sins died. Then the BM died. And then, it was just the Seeker and myself, and that **** had half HP left. Right when the Cleric got back, a Bishop spawned on him and killed him again, he had cast a rez on the BM, who was killed by an AOE right after he rezzed. So, I soloed Dreadindra while the Seeker soloed the bishops.

Barb is a good solo class, but I couldn't have done this without bloodpaint (well, 20 HP heals kinda do nothing when you've got 14.5k), HP food (from tokens, from packs), and most certainly couldn't have done without genie, which gave me a 7k HP infusion every time it cooled down.

Sins can only solo things because they do massive amounts of damage and gain HP back from the damage they do. That's the entire idea behind the class. Archer is somewhat different, the idea is to kill your target before it gets to you, and in the 20-80 level range, you actually can as a pure bow build, especially if you get Legendary weapons.

Hideori - Lost City

you took away our CC and now you want our aps? b:angry

Ithlia - Heavens Tear

So basically you want to change it now so all of the money people spent is for naught? I understand that it isn't fair when people have 5.0 aps and can run Nirvana quickly which leads to a better profit, but PW isn't going to change anything. 5.0 is part of the game, and if you think about it, just having 5.0 makes you lose out on other gear benefits. You need Asura/Lionrex boots and wrists for 5.0 along with the adorns, which again lowers some of your defense while you have 5.0. PW isn't going to change the APS cap because they probably feel the cost of 5.0 paired with the lack of def makes up for it. Granted, I know BM's change gear and what not, but I am talking about when the gear is equipped and the negative consequences.


As for nerfing magic attack, this is ridiculous. First off, damage is already reduced during PVP. Second, casters with a high magic attack are glass cannons, which balances out the damage considering two arrows will kill them. It is also impossible on PW to have an extremely fast casting time, which makes APS unfair to casters because we can only attack so fast.

I say just leave the game the way it is and stop QQing about everything and learn to deal with it. Every class has their own pros and their own cons which balances out the game. If you can't find a squad for anything, maybe you need to make more friends that will run dungeons with you.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Back in the day there was everquest. They had an item called "moss covered twig". It caused the same issues that aps does in PWI.

They nerfed the weapon. Super low delay in attack is game breaking and removes one of the core fun-part effects of an mmo - cooperation.

A poster listed the following:

1) Genies
2) Bless Boxes +30 attack levels
3) Bloodpaint
4) Fail stealth
5) APS
6) Rank gear
7) Packs

Genies aren't broken. They nerfed em a while back, they were worse.
Facebook Bless boxes make instances easier, the check out ones werent bad.
Bloodpaint is severely broken. I can aoe solo without concern to my hp, and apd would not be as independent of other classes without it.
Stealth just needs to cancel when you interact with your environment.
APS needs to be toned down - no matter how much fun it is. Some will qq and rage quit, but more may come back/do more groups.
Rank gear and packs are kinda meh.

I did 4 rounds of FF last night with some other old schoolers in a full group. It was not as good of experience as duo, but way more fun, especially in terms of cooperation and comaraderie.

People qq about plvlers and gooners not earning their levels. Honestly those that aps + bp their way through gear is about the same. Do you really feel you earned and fought for that gear?

I know I feel the game experience has been cheapened by the FF and aps craze. Level too fast, instances are too quick and easy to farm.

And gg they need to fix barb aggro past 90. Kinda sad the class is reduced to being worth no more than devour so the "real" aps classes can do more damage and tank.

Ithlia - Heavens Tear

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Back in the day there was everquest. They had an item called "moss covered twig". It caused the same issues that aps does in PWI.

They nerfed the weapon. Super low delay in attack is game breaking and removes one of the core fun-part effects of an mmo - cooperation.

A poster listed the following:

1) Genies
2) Bless Boxes +30 attack levels
3) Bloodpaint
4) Fail stealth
5) APS
6) Rank gear
7) Packs

Genies aren't broken. They nerfed em a while back, they were worse.
Facebook Bless boxes make instances easier, the check out ones werent bad.
Bloodpaint is severely broken. I can aoe solo without concern to my hp, and apd would not be as independent of other classes without it.
Stealth just needs to cancel when you interact with your environment.
APS needs to be toned down - no matter how much fun it is. Some will qq and rage quit, but more may come back/do more groups.
Rank gear and packs are kinda meh.

I did 4 rounds of FF last night with some other old schoolers in a full group. It was not as good of experience as duo, but way more fun, especially in terms of cooperation and comaraderie.

People qq about plvlers and gooners not earning their levels. Honestly those that aps + bp their way through gear is about the same. Do you really feel you earned and fought for that gear?

I know I feel the game experience has been cheapened by the FF and aps craze. Level too fast, instances are too quick and easy to farm.

And gg they need to fix barb aggro past 90. Kinda sad the class is reduced to being worth no more than devour so the "real" aps classes can do more damage and tank.

I miss the days when people had to zhen for their levels. b:chuckle but, PW changes and will continue to change no matter what. They might nerf aps just for the sheer fact that everyone will have it and will no longer need to CS, which will cause PW to lose money.

The rank gear needs to stay, I am going to farm my butt off for it so I have something to work towards b:irritated

I also agree that barbs need to have a way to keep aggro better at higher levels. It is getting to the point where my herc is taking aggro and the barb can't get it off even if my herc isn't using Bash to keep aggro. I feel like it all depends on the server you are on...since HT is a PVE server, aps is wanted more and the game gets boring once you have nothing left to farm for. PVP servers might experience aps differently because it is kind of boring in PVP. It doesn't take skill to spark and hit a button to auto-attack someone and kill them.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Ithlia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I miss the days when people had to zhen for their levels. b:chuckle but, PW changes and will continue to change no matter what. They might nerf aps just for the sheer fact that everyone will have it and will no longer need to CS, which will cause PW to lose Money.

People CSed before FF change, hypers, and aps.

People merched before all of that too. (Hats off to warrenwolfy for writing a guide I could not write better)

Nerfing aps I would think would increase the economy. More difficult farming = more expensive mats. So people may buy and sell more gold for coin to get the more expensive mats and gears. Saturation and availabilty drives price economy - look at what 2x drops does to mat prices.

Broederjr - Lost City

all ppl dont know nerfing aps makes it alot harder for casters then it already is aps keeps prices down therefor having a more negative effect on caster then be4

Quilue - Sanctuary

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Luckily I never had to use that kind of "trick" to kill a boss.

I'm sure you know very well what I mean. Imo, endgame bosses shouldn't be tanked, let alone solo'ed, by a LA class. It breaks all team-play when you don't need squads because 1 or 2 classes are able to solo litteraly every boss in about the same time as a whole squad.

You seem to have an exception-based reasoning, so I don't think we'll ever agree. And it doesn't matter anyway. Not like another poll/discussion would all the sudden make them rebalance the game.

Actually I don't, the gear requirements to solo snakefist is pretty high, very well geared LA would probably still get hit for ~4-5k. So I assumed you either heard people say LA could solo snakefist easy when they are referring to the glitch, or you somehow believe every LA comes with ~15k hp and pdef.

You ignore the fact that any other class using APS would need much higher gear requirement than assassin to be able to solo the same boss that they can. You also speak as if it would be impossible for a barb to do the same regardless of gear.

Yet you still want to blame APS for the reason assassins can solo every boss in the game. If APS is capped to 3, the only class that can permaspark would be assassins alone, so your problem would still be the same.

BloodyNero - Raging Tide

Sigh the whole community's divided in half on this aps fiasco. But instead of capping the aps at 3.0 or lower has any1 thought of further lowering the - int on the aps gear?

Like instead of having an ashuras bracers of -0.1int we can further lower it to say -0.05 or -0.025 or so....same with set bonuses; i.e. instead of -0.05 we nerf it down to -0.02. Such that when an aps DDer gets the full aps gear needed for todays 5aps, his aps wud only be at around 3.0 or maybe 2.5.

Leave the base weapon damage as it is (daggers at 1.47 attack rate) so that a full apsed sin/bm can act as a good DDer but not too OP as compared to the lesser geared counterparts.
But still pro enough

And people please don't complain when some caster +10 refined out damages a less refined melee DDer;

As for LA guys able to tank bosses, well i guess the lower aps plan explained above should do fix that part as bloodpaint won't work fully with the decreased aps. Inshort we have a balance to this game.....except that i dunno, with this, r9+12 barbs will all need to be ganked inorder to be killed b:surrender

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

aps makes pple fight we should get rid of it all together