If You Restat for Decide How Much Dex You Need to Leave
Comments
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Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »http://pwcalc.com/390f136ef099d693
that would be mine if I restated which would be dumb considering my sins build already. 8k more dps isn't worth refining all new gear and r8 weapon. This is the point I've been trying to make the whole time, especially if the sin isn't a main.
191,835.
R9 +10 does 227,522. And that's without dots and the nirv helm for the extra 29 atk levels. Would be even more if I added it in :O[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »191,835.
R9 +10 does 227,522. And that's without dots and the nirv helm for the extra 29 atk levels. Would be even more if I added it in :O
Yeah you would be spending 1.5bil more then me for 35-40k more damage a second on a second or third tier alt.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »Yeah you would be spending 1.5bil more then me for 35-40k more damage a second on a second or third tier alt.
Not really, The weapon and ring is only like 850-900mil... And uhh, 40k is a ****** lot lol.
Well anyways, Barrier thorn is same cost as those claws. They do 162,507 without dots or nirv helm. Ijs.
Yes I understand what you're trying to say btw, if you're account stashing another chars gear for your sin, then do it, it doesn't gimp your sin too much, but to say it's equal to a dagger sin is quite silly.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »Not really, The weapon and ring is only like 850-900mil... And uhh, 40k is a ****** lot lol.
Well anyways, Barrier thorn is same cost as those claws. They do 162,507 without dots or nirv helm. Ijs.
Yes I understand what you're trying to say btw, if you're account stashing another chars gear for your sin, then do it, it doesn't gimp your sin too much, but to say it's equal to a dagger sin is quite silly.
I didn't say it's equal. I said there wasn't much of a difference between your r8 +10 numbers and if some of my friends just throw a HA build on a sin. All I see is claw sins are so fail and horrible omg don't do it! Well for the "average r8 sin" it's 8k more damage so if claws are fail r8 +10 sins aren't much higher then fail....
Not to mention getting all new gear/shards/refines including r8 vs just slapping r8 on the sin.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »I didn't say it's equal. I said there wasn't much of a difference between your r8 +10 numbers and if some of my friends just throw a HA build on a sin. All I see is claw sins are so fail and horrible omg don't do it! Well for the "average r8 sin" it's 8k more damage so if claws are fail r8 +10 sins aren't much higher then fail....
Well here, I just noticed you had the barb phys atk buff on, I gave my G13 build sin dots and a nirv helm. Demon dagger devotion instead of level 10, and matched it in every single way compared to your claw sin with nirv claws. Only diff of course is the LA/HA thingy.
G13 with 24 dots, nirv helm, sage barb phys atk buff. And same refines/-int pieces/ shards.
G13 does 243,364 dps. 191k compared to 243k. See what I mean? Thats 52k dps youre losing. Tell me why the hell a sin would ever drop his dags to make a HA claw barb for "cheap farming alt"... when it's clear dags do more damage, almost always.
If you have a BM with it all finished and want more farming potential then do it to save coins, it's not that much worse than a dagger sin. But it is quite a bit worse when you compare the SAME builds (refines, shards, aps pieces). You keep throwing this other **** in that skews the numbers in favor of you, when the dagger sin could use the bonuses all the same.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »Well here, I just noticed you had the barb phys atk buff on, I gave my G13 build sin dots and a nirv helm. Demon dagger devotion instead of level 10, and matched it in every single way compared to your claw sin with nirv claws. Only diff of course is the LA/HA thingy.
G13 with 24 dots, nirv helm, sage barb phys atk buff. And same refines/-int pieces/ shards.
G13 does 243,364 dps. 191k compared to 243k. See what I mean? Thats 52k dps youre losing. Tell me why the hell a sin would ever drop his dags to make a HA claw barb for "cheap farming alt"... when it's clear dags do more damage, almost always.
If you have a BM with it all finished and want more farming potential then do it to save coins, it's not that much worse than a dagger sin. But it is quite a bit worse when you compare the SAME builds (refines, shards, aps pieces). You keep throwing this other **** in that skews the numbers in favor of you, when the dagger sin could use the bonuses all the same.
Cool your G13s cost an extra 400m it should do a substantial bit more damage. The point of the build is about equal to r8 +10 with almost no cost as a comparison.
Sweet jebus the point was they were never dagger sins and their total cost (for mine as example) would be r8 + 4 DoTs.
8k more damage is from your numbers not mine. My sin if i put on r8 + 4 DoT would crush the damage on your average sin with nearly 0 cost compared to yours.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »Cool your G13s cost an extra 400m it should do a substantial bit more damage. The point of the build is about equal to r8 +10 with almost no cost as a comparison.
Sweet jebus the point was they were never dagger sins and their total cost (for mine as example) would be r8 + 4 DoTs.
8k more damage is from your numbers not mine. My sin if i put on r8 + 4 DoT would crush the damage on your average sin with nearly 0 cost compared to yours.
You're using G13 lunar nirvana in that last calc correct? How does my G13 cost 400mil more lol? Are G13's all of a sudden different prices than eachother? We have the same gear cost wise, same amount of aps gear on. Same gear just LA/HA is switched out.
And no my numbers show 38k more damage. Demon sins with a tome that is. And no because you're farming alt has the same amount of gear as mine. Remember the point of a claw sin is to get 5 aps quicker. You're using all aps gear in your builds and using chill due to the overkill in aps since you're using claws. Which negates any cost differential since you're using...the...same...damn...gear... -.-'[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »You're using G13 lunar nirvana in that last calc correct? How does my G13 cost 400mil more lol? Are G13's all of a sudden different prices than eachother? We have the same gear cost wise, same amount of aps gear on. Same gear just LA/HA is switched out.
And no my numbers show 38k more damage. Demon sins with a tome that is. And no because you're farming alt has the same amount of gear as mine. Remember the point of a claw sin is to get 5 aps quicker. You're using all aps gear in your builds and using chill due to the overkill in aps since you're using claws. Which negates any cost differential since you're using...the...same...damn...gear... -.-'
Because I already have claws +10 with 2 garnet gems....i can't just magically make those into G13 daggers to use for a sin, therefor I have to farm daggers refine them and shard them vs just using HA build and transferring these.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
I'll wrap this up for everyone so they all know.
With a claw sin, you attain 5 aps for about 300mil cheaper. (You no longer need the nirv pants, and Deicides are 180 mil cheaper than a Pan Gu).
This is cool, for a cheap farming alt. Unfortunately, using this build will cause you to deal 37k less damage per second compared to +10 R8 with a tome. Kindly look below me and see the comparisons.
Rank 8 +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 125,380
Sage no tome 94,129
Demon w/ tome 152,662
Sage w/ tome 109,154
Deicide +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 115,835
Sage no tome 115,835
Demon w/ tome 118,602
Sage w/ tome 118,602
So all in all, the conclusion to draw from all this is if you want a cheap farming alt that is less efficient than a dagger sin, make a claw sin. But don't be butt hurt when the G13 user gets picked over you for a nirv run, (assuming you use WC to find nirvs). Also, expect nirv/TT/FC runs to take longer, especially when running with other claw sins, the 37k damage per second adds up fast
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
5 APS with deicides is kind of like rounding up the length of your disco stick from 5->10.
It's lying, and makes people angry when they let you in (their squads).0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »I'll wrap this up for everyone so they all know.
With a claw sin, you attain 5 aps for about 300mil cheaper. (You no longer need the nirv pants, and Deicides are 180 mil cheaper than a Pan Gu).
This is cool, for a cheap farming alt. Unfortunately, using this build will cause you to deal 37k less damage per second compared to +10 R8 with a tome. Kindly look below me and see the comparisons.
Rank 8 +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 125,380
Sage no tome 94,129
Demon w/ tome 152,662
Sage w/ tome 109,154
Deicide +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 115,835
Sage no tome 115,835
Demon w/ tome 118,602
Sage w/ tome 118,602
So all in all, the conclusion to draw from all this is if you want a cheap farming alt that is less efficient than a dagger sin, make a claw sin. But don't be butt hurt when the G13 user gets picked over you for a nirv run, (assuming you use WC to find nirvs). Also, expect nirv/TT/FC runs to take longer, especially when running with other claw sins, the 37k damage per second adds up fast
The correct answer is do your own pwcalcs based on the gear you have vs gear you can afford and decide if it's worth the coin.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »I'll wrap this up for everyone so they all know.
With a claw sin, you attain 5 aps for about 300mil cheaper. (You no longer need the nirv pants, and Deicides are 180 mil cheaper than a Pan Gu).
This is cool, for a cheap farming alt. Unfortunately, using this build will cause you to deal 37k less damage per second compared to +10 R8 with a tome. Kindly look below me and see the comparisons.
Rank 8 +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 125,380
Sage no tome 94,129
Demon w/ tome 152,662
Sage w/ tome 109,154
Deicide +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 115,835
Sage no tome 115,835
Demon w/ tome 118,602
Sage w/ tome 118,602
So all in all, the conclusion to draw from all this is if you want a cheap farming alt that is less efficient than a dagger sin, make a claw sin. But don't be butt hurt when the G13 user gets picked over you for a nirv run, (assuming you use WC to find nirvs). Also, expect nirv/TT/FC runs to take longer, especially when running with other claw sins, the 37k damage per second adds up fast
Thats a useful analysis.
Consider though that neither an R8 dagger nor a deicide is an end game weapon. When you outgrow it (if you choose to grow your sin) you can sell the deicide (maybe at a profit) but are stuck with an unused obsolete +10 dagger in your bank.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Thats a useful analysis.
Consider though that neither an R8 dagger nor a deicide is an end game weapon. When you outgrow it (if you choose to grow your sin) you can sell the deicide (maybe at a profit) but are stuck with an unused obsolete +10 dagger in your bank.
But then again we run into the paradox of which is better? Not +10ing and saving the coin for better gear or +10ing to farm better gear faster. It's all relative. This is aimed at the R8 argument since Deicides are tradable, of course. And if you wanted the same effect as +10 deicides just leave the R8 at +6-7. Same damage output. More expensive, but assuming you're not recycling gear you should be using daggers and LA anyways.
Oh and if this is a cheap farming alt you wouldn't go past deicides anyways because how are you making money when you're dropping hundreds of mil into your HA claw sin when it's already 5 aps with a respectable dps as is?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Absolute cheapest would be to use gear from something you already have, say, a barb or BM, and forget rep, rank, or anything else.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
You've got Nirvana gear +10 that's bound on your Barb that now has R9, why not put htat on a farming sin and use it? Borrow some Nirvana fists from your BM. Oh wait. HA Sin is fail. Sorry. My bad.101 Sage Sin*/Archer
100 Demon BM*/Barb
96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
95 Demon Wiz/
94 Sage Veno
85 Psy/80 Mystic
And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
*Pre RB level0 -
Sarra you're the dumbest person ive ever met and all your posts ever seem to be are butthurt rants. Shut up and read the thread first.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ashura Tyrant you foul mouthed little boy! I must keel yew nao =30 -
I don't have another melee alt, so stash is not happening.
You can see my other thread, I decided to go with deicides and am having mixed feeling thus far.0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Consider though that neither an R8 dagger nor a deicide is an end game weapon. When you outgrow it (if you choose to grow your sin) you can sell the deicide (maybe at a profit) but are stuck with an unused obsolete +10 dagger in your bank.
This is a horrible analysis...
You disregard any influence of time on value, don't dissociate the weapon and the refines as seperate investments and totally oversee the the primary purpose of the character.
In case of a cheap farming sin, both can be considered "endgame". And even if you decide to grow the sin, you have to take into account the number of months you use the weapon and refines on. That is why you have to dissociate the refines as investment : A rational person wouldn't refine to +10 a weapon he will get rid off fast anyway, unless he estimates that the investment gives an advantage during the using time that is more important then the cost.
Your "don't spend money on anything you will outgrow and can't resell" is doesn't make any sence. You just have to take the end value into consideration, doesn't mean by default it's not worth it. Investments are necessary to grow.0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Thats a useful analysis.
Consider though that neither an R8 dagger nor a deicide is an end game weapon. When you outgrow it (if you choose to grow your sin) you can sell the deicide (maybe at a profit) but are stuck with an unused obsolete +10 dagger in your bank.
I have 5.3k HP, +3 r8 daggers with 2 perfects garnets, 2.5/3.33 aps, 3.4k Phys def and 3.2k mag def unbuffed. I can tank a clericless nirvana run.
You dare call r8 non-endgame?Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
~Spazz~0 -
I agree that R8 dagger with +5 refine could be considered endgame, the damage is pretty impressive and going for the aps dagger is a staggering cost.0
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Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »I have 5.3k HP, +3 r8 daggers with 2 perfects garnets, 2.5/3.33 aps, 3.4k Phys def and 3.2k mag def unbuffed. I can tank a clericless nirvana run.
You dare call r8 non-endgame?
No you aren't end-game.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Fist/claw sin? b:bye pfffYou got trolled
[sigpic]http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/troll face/grand/UPVFV.gif[/sigpic]0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »No you aren't end-game.
Define end-game.
Also learn to read. I didn't say I was endgame, I implied that r8 can be called endgame. b:byeDemon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
~Spazz~0 -
I agree, endgame is a matter of perspective. It simply means equiptment that you will use all the way until you quit playing.
Since R8 armour and dagger are such a good value I can see them being endgame for most people that don't cash shop (or do so minimally) or that maintain a life/job outside of PWI0 -
Well said bro~I agree, endgame is a matter of perspective. It simply means equiptment that you will use all the way until you quit playing.
Since R8 armour and dagger are such a good value I can see them being endgame for most people that don't cash shop (or do so minimally) or that maintain a life/job outside of PWIDemon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
~Spazz~0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »No you aren't end-game.
You seem to imply that everyone must aim for r9 or 2nd cast vana, or in other words, the best gear available. It might be hard for someone like you to imagen that not everyone plays a game with the objective of becoming the absolute best. You shouldn't look down on casual/not cashshopping/relaxed players that don't have the absolute best gear, and have no intention of getting so. I know many players that are absolutely satisfied with r8.
And yes, the simple fact you don't qualify a sin with r8 as "end-game" means you put them in some lower category.0 -
Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »Define end-game.
Also learn to read. I didn't say I was endgame, I implied that r8 can be called endgame. b:bye
Only an idiot would say something like that (note I am making a statement about idiots in general and not talking about you, learn to read).
You're on Santuary so if you want to see an example of an end-game sin look at MrsSaxwell, Firesinz, Stubborn_, Myskana, RealVonDutch, etc. There are hundreds to choose from that are a full tier above you.
They are end game, you are not.Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »And yes, the simple fact you don't qualify a sin with r8 as "end-game" means you put them in some lower category.
They are in a lower category.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I know many players that are absolutely satisfied with r8.
Me too and I have come across good, fun players that don't even aspire to get R8, they are happy with 3 star equip. and they just play a couple of hours a week to chat with friends and relax. This is endgame for them.....0 -
If you are satisfied with TT90 does that make TT90 an end game weapon?
I certainly wouldn't put a +10 refine on it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle since you don't ever win this game, endgame is whatever an individual chooses it to be.
I agree it is not very nice to look down on people that have less than you, just like in RL it makes you a shallow (probably someone that possesses low self-esteem) person.0 -
Asterelle since you don't ever win this game, endgame is whatever an individual chooses it to be.
+1
The elitist snobism (at least, that is what I think of it) displayed on wc and often on these forum, tries to push everyone into a mold of what your character must be like. Comming from a person like Asterelle, who, if I recall right, blamed the new devs for taking away versality in builds, I find this particularly shocking.
Aiming for r9 and 2nd cast vana with +10 refines and g12+ shards as an individual, and thinking everyone should aim for that kind of gear, are 2 completely different things.0
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